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Posted: 10/26/2016 4:06:34 PM EDT
Went to the Clerk's Office today to register as a write-in candidate for office* and noticed this new sign in the front.
Pretty sneaky they don't say "deadly weapons", but I think we all know what they mean with a blanket ban. *Shameless self-promotion, please write me (Toby Krause) in for Soil and Water Conservation District Supervisor for Fayette County. Nothing like keeping an eye on the Government from the inside! |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 4:38:47 PM EDT
[#1]
Open carry into there. Leave when told. Sue the county for 2.9 billion.
I am tempted to go do it myself. |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 5:22:29 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Went to the Clerk's Office today to register as a write-in candidate for office* and noticed this new sign in the front. http://imgur.com/XicWtxD.jpg http://i.imgur.com/HEkDJmw.jpg Pretty sneaky they don't say "deadly weapons", but I think we all know what they mean with a blanket ban. *Shameless self-promotion, please write me (Toby Krause) in for Soil and Water Conservation District Supervisor for Fayette County. Nothing like keeping an eye on the Government from the inside! Is there anything else in that building besides the Clerk's office? Do you know who owns that building? If it is leased space, the owner can put up a sign like that. If Lexington Urban County Government owns the building and there is no other tenant that might be able to ban all guns (like a court office) then that sign is illegal. They can keep CONCEALED deadly weapons out of that office. Lexington has an ordinance that prohibits CONCEALED deadly weapon in all Lexington government buildings. The problem comes with the wording "any and all". That would include openly carried weapons, which they have no authority to ban. I'll be in contact with the clerk, Don Blevins about this very soon. In fact I may just drive to Lex. and go in there open carrying and see what happens. It could be fun. |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 5:50:00 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is there anything else in that building besides the Clerk's office? Do you know who owns that building? If it is leased space, the owner can put up a sign like that. If Lexington Urban County Government owns the building and there is no other tenant that might be able to ban all guns (like a court office) then that sign is illegal. They can keep CONCEALED deadly weapons out of that office. Lexington has an ordinance that prohibits CONCEALED deadly weapon in all Lexington government buildings. The problem comes with the wording "any and all". That would include openly carried weapons, which they have no authority to ban. I'll be in contact with the clerk, Don Blevins about this very soon. In fact I may just drive to Lex. and go in there open carrying and see what happens. It could be fun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Went to the Clerk's Office today to register as a write-in candidate for office* and noticed this new sign in the front. http://imgur.com/XicWtxD.jpg http://i.imgur.com/HEkDJmw.jpg Pretty sneaky they don't say "deadly weapons", but I think we all know what they mean with a blanket ban. *Shameless self-promotion, please write me (Toby Krause) in for Soil and Water Conservation District Supervisor for Fayette County. Nothing like keeping an eye on the Government from the inside! Is there anything else in that building besides the Clerk's office? Do you know who owns that building? If it is leased space, the owner can put up a sign like that. If Lexington Urban County Government owns the building and there is no other tenant that might be able to ban all guns (like a court office) then that sign is illegal. They can keep CONCEALED deadly weapons out of that office. Lexington has an ordinance that prohibits CONCEALED deadly weapon in all Lexington government buildings. The problem comes with the wording "any and all". That would include openly carried weapons, which they have no authority to ban. I'll be in contact with the clerk, Don Blevins about this very soon. In fact I may just drive to Lex. and go in there open carrying and see what happens. It could be fun. Circuit Clerk used to be on the second floor, but now the whole building is LFUCG occupied by the County Clerk. That's the main office downtown right across from the Government Center. |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 6:33:15 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is there anything else in that building besides the Clerk's office? Do you know who owns that building? If it is leased space, the owner can put up a sign like that. If Lexington Urban County Government owns the building and there is no other tenant that might be able to ban all guns (like a court office) then that sign is illegal. They can keep CONCEALED deadly weapons out of that office. Lexington has an ordinance that prohibits CONCEALED deadly weapon in all Lexington government buildings. The problem comes with the wording "any and all". That would include openly carried weapons, which they have no authority to ban. I'll be in contact with the clerk, Don Blevins about this very soon. In fact I may just drive to Lex. and go in there open carrying and see what happens. It could be fun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Went to the Clerk's Office today to register as a write-in candidate for office* and noticed this new sign in the front. http://imgur.com/XicWtxD.jpg http://i.imgur.com/HEkDJmw.jpg Pretty sneaky they don't say "deadly weapons", but I think we all know what they mean with a blanket ban. *Shameless self-promotion, please write me (Toby Krause) in for Soil and Water Conservation District Supervisor for Fayette County. Nothing like keeping an eye on the Government from the inside! Is there anything else in that building besides the Clerk's office? Do you know who owns that building? If it is leased space, the owner can put up a sign like that. If Lexington Urban County Government owns the building and there is no other tenant that might be able to ban all guns (like a court office) then that sign is illegal. They can keep CONCEALED deadly weapons out of that office. Lexington has an ordinance that prohibits CONCEALED deadly weapon in all Lexington government buildings. The problem comes with the wording "any and all". That would include openly carried weapons, which they have no authority to ban. I'll be in contact with the clerk, Don Blevins about this very soon. In fact I may just drive to Lex. and go in there open carrying and see what happens. It could be fun. Friday? Any chance I could join you? |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 7:05:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Friday? Any chance I could join you? I'll call tomorrow and see what they have to say. Maybe a long drive can be avoided. I'll post back here tomorrow. I suspect it is a leftover sign from when the Circuit Clerk(court office) was there. LFUCG knows better than this. |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 7:13:56 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll call tomorrow and see what they have to say. Maybe a long drive can be avoided. I'll post back here tomorrow. I suspect it is a leftover sign from when the Circuit Clerk(court office) was there. LFUCG knows better than this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Friday? Any chance I could join you? I'll call tomorrow and see what they have to say. Maybe a long drive can be avoided. I'll post back here tomorrow. I suspect it is a leftover sign from when the Circuit Clerk(court office) was there. LFUCG knows better than this. I come to the County Clerks all the time to get land records, this sign is definitely within the last month and the Circuit Clerk hasn't been there for almost a year if not longer. |
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Posted: 10/26/2016 9:24:41 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I come to the County Clerks all the time to get land records, this sign is definitely within the last month and the Circuit Clerk hasn't been there for almost a year if not longer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Friday? Any chance I could join you? I'll call tomorrow and see what they have to say. Maybe a long drive can be avoided. I'll post back here tomorrow. I suspect it is a leftover sign from when the Circuit Clerk(court office) was there. LFUCG knows better than this. I come to the County Clerks all the time to get land records, this sign is definitely within the last month and the Circuit Clerk hasn't been there for almost a year if not longer. That is very helpful information. Thank you. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 10:37:08 AM EDT
[#8]
I just got off the phone with Don Blevins, Fayette Co. Clerk. He told me that he was well aware that the signs were illegal and unenforceable. He said the signs were put up this summer and almost immediately people started calling and complaining. He soon after that found out about KRS 65.870. I asked why the signs are still up. He said that they had new doors ordered and when the new doors came in the signs would be taken down along with the old doors. I told him that was not good enough and asked if he was aware that this is a criminal act. He said that he did't think that was true, so I told him to reread paragraph (6) of the statute and he said he would. I don't now if I convinced him to take the signs down or not. I intend to keep an eye on things for a few days and get back with him.
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Posted: 10/27/2016 5:47:47 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just got off the phone with Don Blevins, Fayette Co. Clerk. He told me that he was well aware that the signs were illegal and unenforceable. He said the signs were put up this summer and almost immediately people started calling and complaining. He soon after that found out about KRS 65.870. I asked why the signs are still up. He said that they had new doors ordered and when the new doors came in the signs would be taken down along with the old doors. I told him that was not good enough and asked if he was aware that this is a criminal act. He said that he did't think that was true, so I told him to reread paragraph (6) of the statute and he said he would. I don't now if I convinced him to take the signs down or not. I intend to keep an eye on things for a few days and get back with him. Will a Commonwealth Attorney send a cease and desist (or maybe even just call) if they know about it? Word spreading that the state is breathing down necks over illegal no-guns signs sounds like just the thing that might convince other offices to take theirs down most ricky tick and not put them up in the future. Precedent for uncooperative offices that the Commonwealth takes action on seems like a good thing. If Blevins doesn't want to get and stay stay familiar with KRS and wants to call those who are familiar with it liars, why wait before pursuing it further? If there's no push-back against that sort of thing, they don't have much impetus to behave differently. |
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Posted: 10/27/2016 7:36:55 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Will a Commonwealth Attorney send a cease and desist (or maybe even just call) if they know about it? Word spreading that the state is breathing down necks over illegal no-guns signs sounds like just the thing that might convince other offices to take theirs down most ricky tick and not put them up in the future. Precedent for uncooperative offices that the Commonwealth takes action on seems like a good thing. If Blevins doesn't want to get and stay stay familiar with KRS and wants to call those who are familiar with it liars, why wait before pursuing it further? If there's no push-back against that sort of thing, they don't have much impetus to behave differently. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I just got off the phone with Don Blevins, Fayette Co. Clerk. He told me that he was well aware that the signs were illegal and unenforceable. He said the signs were put up this summer and almost immediately people started calling and complaining. He soon after that found out about KRS 65.870. I asked why the signs are still up. He said that they had new doors ordered and when the new doors came in the signs would be taken down along with the old doors. I told him that was not good enough and asked if he was aware that this is a criminal act. He said that he didn't think that was true, so I told him to reread paragraph (6) of the statute and he said he would. I don't now if I convinced him to take the signs down or not. I intend to keep an eye on things for a few days and get back with him. Will a Commonwealth Attorney send a cease and desist (or maybe even just call) if they know about it? Word spreading that the state is breathing down necks over illegal no-guns signs sounds like just the thing that might convince other offices to take theirs down most ricky tick and not put them up in the future. Precedent for uncooperative offices that the Commonwealth takes action on seems like a good thing. If Blevins doesn't want to get and stay stay familiar with KRS and wants to call those who are familiar with it liars, why wait before pursuing it further? If there's no push-back against that sort of thing, they don't have much impetus to behave differently. I doubt that the Commonwealths Attorney would lift a finger on this but, I intend to contact the Fayette County Attorney about it tomorrow. They are the ones that would have to defend the county against any potential lawsuits and I think they would rather advise the County Clerk to remove the signs than to have to defend these stupid, illegal acts. The Fayette Co. Attorney's office has had dealings with KC3 several times in the past and they have never enjoyed the experience. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 11:38:07 AM EDT
[#11]
I work very, very close to that building. Feel free to ask if you need someone to check the status of the sign.
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Posted: 10/28/2016 2:02:02 PM EDT
[#12]
As of 30 minutes ago, that sign is not on either of the doors that open onto Main St.
EDIT: The doors do not look to be new/replaced. |
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Posted: 10/28/2016 5:15:49 PM EDT
[#13]
well done softpoint |
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Posted: 10/30/2016 3:05:53 AM EDT
[#14]
There are recent signs put up on our county clerks office too. This building was the old courthouse from like 15 yrs ago. It does have the sheriffs office inside the building on the second floor.
I've been meaning to ask soft point if this was illegal or not. I know as an instructor you can't go into the sheriffs office concealed but does the building count also? It includes the country clerks office and other offices like that but no courthouse. It's in Hazard , Ky , Perry County. If you need more info let me know. If I need to create a separate post I will. |
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Posted: 10/30/2016 1:33:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are recent signs put up on our county clerks office too. This building was the old courthouse from like 15 yrs ago. It does have the sheriffs office inside the building on the second floor. I've been meaning to ask soft point if this was illegal or not. I know as an instructor you can't go into the sheriffs office concealed but does the building count also? It includes the country clerks office and other offices like that but no courthouse. It's in Hazard , Ky , Perry County. If you need more info let me know. If I need to create a separate post I will. It depends on the details. What, exactly does the sign say? The exact wording is important. Pictures would be nice. Does it just prohibit CONCEALED weapons? Does Perry county have an ordinance against concealed weapons in county buildings? My first guess is that the sign is illegal. They can not prohibit openly carried weapons in any part of the building, if it is as you described. They can't even prohibit openly carried weapons in the sheriff's office, itself. Most rural counties do not have such ordinances. Very few counties do. About half of our 400+ cities have them. Generally, counties only have about 10% of the ordinances, of any kind, that cities have and most of those have to do with financial issues. To sum it up: 1. If they have the proper ordinance (and many are improperly written and unenforceable) , they can prohibit only CONCEALED weapons and the sign must reflect that. 2. If they have no ordinance, they can not prohibit firearms, no matter how they are carried, anywhere except the sheriff's office, where only CONCEALED weapons can be prohibited(by state law). Without an ordinance, they can't prohibit guns in the entire building, just because the sheriff's office is in there. I can not find a source for Perry Co. ordinances online, but did find the City of Hazard ordinances and the city does not have a concealed weapons ordinance. |
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Posted: 11/4/2016 1:39:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Thanks a lot for the help so,far. I will try to get more info and a picture of the door. I will also contact my sheriff and see if he'll tell me more about whether or not they have any ordinances on the books specifically dealing with this.
My opinion is they don't really know the laws fully enough to make these decisions air tight in their favor. However the likely outcome is after doing this they will change them in their favor. Our county judge is not a real conservative guy. |
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Posted: 11/4/2016 4:59:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Yeah, most of what you say is what I have found to be true in the past. It is a little touchy to tell them they need an ordinance and then try to talk them out of passing one. Of course the first question I would have for them is, what will they do until they pass the ordinance? It could take three or four months to get one passed. Those ordinances are not as easy to pass as a lot of people think. Once they find out that they can't ban open carry, many places lose their appetite for it. Each magistrate is going to have to vote on the ordinance and I'd bet there are a lot of gun owners in each district. A yes vote could cost a lot of votes at the next election. Of course, they may never hear about any of this, unless somebody goes to the Fiscal Court meeting and tells them. That is your job, if you want changes. If you can't get it done on your own, let me know and KC3 might be able to help you.
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Posted: 11/6/2016 8:07:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Thanks. Still working on info for you.
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Posted: 11/18/2016 8:49:27 PM EDT
[#19]
That sign is part of the 'Gray effect'
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Posted: 11/19/2016 12:25:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That sign is part of the 'Gray effect' Maybe, but the Gray administration is well aware that they can't regulate firearms. Right after the new law took effect, in 2013, KC3 had several confrontations with them. I went to one commissioners meeting while open carrying. I got stopped at the front desk, asked for my ID, I refused (you can not be forced to identify yourself to attend a public meeting), the officer "asked" if I intended to take my gun to the car and I just said "no. I'll keep it", he call a Lex./Fayette Co cop over and he asked where i was going (again), I told him, he just shrugged and walked away. In I went. Another time, I went to a 4th of July Parade and celebration downtown at "Cheapside". There was a big crowd. Once again I was open carry. I was approached by two cops on bicycles. They started to tell me that I was scaring people. I asked them, "which people, point them out". They couldn't do it. I told them that I was busy and didn't have time to talk to them and walked away. They may try to intimidate people, but hey know that they can't actually do anything. If they think you are unsure of the law or can be pushed around, they will try to do it. |
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Posted: 11/19/2016 9:33:42 PM EDT
[#21]
Hey now. Let's all be respectful of the lying, openly gay mayor of Lexington. We don't want to seem like we don't like anti-gun, career politicians, now do we?
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Posted: 12/9/2016 11:56:22 AM EDT
[#22]
Well I am very disappointed. I walked by the County Clerk Office again today and it seems they have a new sign on the door now.
Why they would remove the old one and then put this new one up a few weeks later is beyond me.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 12/9/2016 12:04:59 PM EDT
[#23]
Because they're allowed to ban concealed weapons. The original was a blanket ban on all weapons and wasn't consistent with city ordinance.
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Posted: 12/9/2016 12:19:41 PM EDT
[#24]
Lex.-Fayette Co. Urban Government has an ordinance that prohibits CONCEALED weapons in all of their government buildings. This is allowed by KRS 237.115 and is part of the concealed carry law, and has been since 1996. Many, but not all cities and counties have these ordinances. The larger cities and counties are almost sure to have them. Jefferson Co. has the same ordinance. The original sign exceed the authority of their ordinance because it banned all weapons, not just concealed weapons. When I encounter one of these signs, I just uncover my weapon and go on in open carrying. They have no authority to stop open carry. The old sign was illegal. The new sign is legal, but the only penalty is they can ask you to leave, if they discover your concealed weapon. You will find this same sign on all Lex.-Fayette government buildings. Most of them have been there for 21 years.
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Posted: 12/9/2016 2:28:03 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lex.-Fayette Co. Urban Government has an ordinance that prohibits CONCEALED weapons in all of their government buildings. This is allowed by KRS 237.115 and is part of the concealed carry law, and has been since 1996. Many, but not all cities and counties have these ordinances. The larger cities and counties are almost sure to have them. Jefferson Co. has the same ordinance. The original sign exceed the authority of their ordinance because it banned all weapons, not just concealed weapons. When I encounter one of these signs, I just uncover my weapon and go on in open carrying. They have no authority to stop open carry. The old sign was illegal. The new sign is legal, but the only penalty is they can ask you to leave, if they discover your concealed weapon. You will find this same sign on all Lex.-Fayette government buildings. Most of them have been there for 21 years. While I am a believer in concealed means concealed... and others may have the same question: If I were carrying in an "inside the waistband" holster could I just tuck the shirt in/take covering garment off so the grip was visible? In other words, how "outside" is open carry? |
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Posted: 12/9/2016 4:06:00 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While I am a believer in concealed means concealed... and others may have the same question: If I were carrying in an "inside the waistband" holster could I just tuck the shirt in/take covering garment off so the grip was visible? In other words, how "outside" is open carry? There is no clear answer to that question and I don't know how there possibly could be an answer to it. What kind of explanation could cover every possibility? It doesn't have anything to do with "inside" or "outside". The statutes don't even try, but some court cases have established that if the gun is visible and can be recognized as a gun by casual observation, then it is open carry. I have had police tell me that my openly carried gun was a violation of their CONCEALED carry prohibitition. I ask them, "What makes you think that I am carrying a gun?" and they will say, "I can see it right there". My reply is, "Then its not concealed is it?". I don't understand why this is a big issue for people. And I don't understand why some people want to push things right up to the limits of the law and then complain that the don't understand. Just open carry out in plain sight and all these problems and questions go away. Are people ashamed of their guns? If you catch any grief about it, just tell them that they caused all of it with their stupid ordinance. There is nothing they can do to you if you happen to miss a sign saying, "No Concealed Weapons". I am getting pretty old and my eyesight is not very good. I miss a lot of those signs. Funny, I can see most other signs. |
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Posted: 12/11/2016 6:36:02 PM EDT
[#27]
"Then its not concealed is it?". 
That, sir, is an outfuckingstanding answer. 
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Posted: 12/12/2016 9:28:22 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't understand why this is a big issue for people. And I don't understand why some people want to push things right up to the limits of the law and then complain that the don't understand. Just open carry out in plain sight and all these problems and questions go away. Are people ashamed of their guns? If you catch any grief about it, just tell them that they caused all of it with their stupid ordinance. There is nothing they can do to you if you happen to miss a sign saying, "No Concealed Weapons". I am getting pretty old and my eyesight is not very good. I miss a lot of those signs. Funny, I can see most other signs.[/size=4][/b] I agree with all that you have said 100%. That said, I guess I fall into the "I don't want to be a bad guy target" by carrying open. I also don't want to deal with the harrassment of the "snowflake people" and then LEO (who would side with me but still have to do their job and question me). I do occassionally carry open, on my way to an IDPA match, cooler seasons where I have an cover garment, etc. I prefer not bringing anymore attention to myself than my normal ugly mug does. |
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Posted: 12/12/2016 5:18:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
, I agree with all that you have said 100%. That said, I guess I fall into the "I don't want to be a bad guy target" by carrying open. I also don't want to deal with the harrassment of the "snowflake people" and then LEO (who would side with me but still have to do their job and question me). I do occassionally carry open, on my way to an IDPA match, cooler seasons where I have an cover garment, etc. I prefer not bringing anymore attention to myself than my normal ugly mug does. I understand your feelings. Its just that I don't suffer from any such malady. It is more difficult to OC when wearing heavy coats, but not impossible. I have a dedicated gun belt that goes right over my heaviest coat. As far as being a target, I have seen no evidence that is the slightest bit true. In fact, it is more likely that a criminal will just move on to a different location for his business. They don't come out looking for gun fights and will avoid one unless it is impossible not to. They like easy targets not, armed ones. I get very, very, very few complaints from "snowflakes" and get daily "thank you's" from sane, normal people. The LEO don't "have to" question you and as a matter of fact, are not allowed to stop you unless they have "reasonable articulable suspicion" of you being involved in some criminal activity. Carrying a gun is not criminal activity. Of, course, he can ask anybody a question, just like you and I can. You are not required to answer his questions. You are not required to even stop and listen to him. In the rare instances when LEO ask to speak to them, I just tell them that I am too busy ad keep walking. This is the law in this country. These are our rights as free Americans. If we are too timid to assert those rights, they will soon disappear. |
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Posted: 12/13/2016 12:56:31 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I understand your feelings. Its just that I don't suffer from any such malady. It is more difficult to OC when wearing heavy coats, but not impossible. I have a dedicated gun belt that goes right over my heaviest coat. As far as being a target, I have seen no evidence that is the slightest bit true. In fact, it is more likely that a criminal will just move on to a different location for his business. They don't come out looking for gun fights and will avoid one unless it is impossible not to. They like easy targets not, armed ones. I get very, very, very few complaints from "snowflakes" and get daily "thank you's" from sane, normal people. The LEO don't "have to" question you and as a matter of fact, are not allowed to stop you unless they have "reasonable articulable suspicion" of you being involved in some criminal activity. Carrying a gun is not criminal activity. Of, course, he can ask anybody a question, just like you and I can. You are not required to answer his questions. You are not required to even stop and listen to him. In the rare instances when LEO ask to speak to them, I just tell them that I am too busy ad keep walking. This is the law in this country. These are our rights as free Americans. If we are too timid to assert those rights, they will soon disappear. Like I said, 100% agree with you and I appreciate your type of carry. I stated that I do it that way too, sometimes. It is not a malady, I just do it different. I could not be any more pro-2A. "Timid" is not an adjective that can be used to describe me. Ever. |
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Posted: 12/13/2016 5:14:45 PM EDT
[#31]
Sorry, not meant as an insult. I started with scared, but soon decided that was too strong a term and struggled with what to use. We are all individual people and have our own individual preferences. I don't expect anybody to do or feel exactly as I do about anything. As long as we are all trying to protect our "right to Keep and Bear arms", its all good.
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Posted: 12/13/2016 5:27:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry, not meant as an insult. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry, not meant as an insult. No worries at all sir! Quoted:
We are all individual people and have our own individual preferences. I don't expect anybody to do or feel exactly as I do about anything. As long as we are all trying to protect our "right to Keep and Bear arms", its all good. Absolutely! I greatly appreciate all that you do sir. Thank you. |
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