Tell me about machinegun registration please

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Tell me about machinegun registration please

Posted: 5/31/2017 4:17:48 PM EDT

I have a bunch of family in Virginia. I'm eventually going to move back there, but right now I am more concerned about visiting. When I last lived in Virginia I didn't own a machinegun so I have no experience.

I'd like to visit later in the summer and bring my M10/45 with me. I understand that I still need to register the gun to do that. I also suspect that NFA won't approve transporting to Virginia without the registration.

So I'm looking for information on how to go about doing this, what I should list for purpose on the registration, how long it takes, etc. anyone have any experience?

Thanks!

Posted: 5/31/2017 5:08:55 PM EDT

[#1]

§ 18.2-295. Registration of machine guns.
Every machine gun in this Commonwealth shall be registered with the Department of State Police within twenty-four hours after its acquisition or, in the case of semi-automatic weapons which are converted, modified or otherwise altered to become machine guns, within twenty-four hours of the conversion, modification or alteration. Blanks for registration shall be prepared by the Superintendent of State Police, and furnished upon application.

To comply with this section the application as filed shall be notarized and shall show the model and serial number of the gun, the name, address and occupation of the person in possession, and from whom and the purpose for which, the gun was acquired or altered. The Superintendent of State Police shall upon registration required in this section forthwith furnish the registrant with a certificate of registration, which shall be valid as long as the registrant remains the same. Certificates of registration shall be retained by the registrant and produced by him upon demand by any peace officer.

Failure to keep or produce such certificate for inspection shall be a Class 3 misdemeanor, and any peace officer, may without warrant, seize the machine gun and apply for its confiscation as provided in § 18.2-296. Upon transferring a registered machine gun, the transferor shall forthwith notify the Superintendent in writing, setting forth the date of transfer and name and address of the transferee. Failure to give the required notification shall constitute a Class 3 misdemeanor. Registration data shall not be subject to inspection by the public.

Code 1950, § 18.1-265; 1960, c. 358; 1972, c. 199; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1978, c. 618; 1988, c. 460.

§ 18.2-290. Use of machine gun for aggressive purpose.
Unlawful possession or use of a machine gun for an offensive or aggressive purpose is hereby declared to be a Class 4 felony.

Code 1950, § 18.1-260; 1960, c. 358; 1968, c. 229; 1975, cc. 14, 15.

§ 18.2-291. What constitutes aggressive purpose.
Possession or use of a machine gun shall be presumed to be for an offensive or aggressive purpose:

(1) When the machine gun is on premises not owned or rented for bona fide permanent residence or business occupancy by the person in whose possession the machine gun may be found;

(2) When the machine gun is in the possession of, or used by, a person who has been convicted of a crime of violence in any court of record, state or federal, of the United States of America, its territories or insular possessions;

(3) When the machine gun has not been registered as required in § 18.2-295; or

(4) When empty or loaded shells which have been or are susceptible of use in the machine gun are found in the immediate vicinity thereof.

Code 1950, § 18.1-261; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15.

§ 18.2-293.1. What article does not prohibit.
Nothing contained in this article shall prohibit or interfere with:

(1) The possession of a machine gun for scientific purposes, or the possession of a machine gun not usable as a weapon and possessed as a curiosity, ornament, or keepsake; and

(2) The possession of a machine gun for a purpose manifestly not aggressive or offensive.

Provided, however, that possession of such machine guns shall be subject to the provisions of § 18.2-295.

Code 1950, § 18.1-263; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15.

Code of Virginia, Title 18.2, Chapter 7 Crimes Involving Health and Safety

Virginia State Police Machine Gun Registration

Posted: 5/31/2017 5:34:24 PM EDT

[#2]

Does this apply to folks just visiting, say for a shooting event?

Posted: 5/31/2017 8:57:17 PM EDT

[#3]

Quote History

Quoted:
Does this apply to folks just visiting, say for a shooting event?

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It does. If I want to bring it I have to register it on a temporary basis. The form has a spot for dates the gun will be in the Commonwealth. At this point I am wondering what is acceptable to put down as "purpose acquired for under 18.2-291."

Posted: 5/31/2017 10:42:39 PM EDT

[#4]

18.2-291 is the aggressive purpose statute listed above.

I'd imagine they want to see some lawful, peaceful purpose. Target shooting, competition, something other than unlawful purposes as listed in 18.2-291.

That said, I've never submitted a machine gun registration form.

Posted: 6/1/2017 8:51:15 AM EDT

[#5]

SP-115 Virginia Machinegun Registration form

from the instructions;

TEMPORARY REGISTRATION List the dates the machine gun will be located in Virginia. This application must contain the address where the
machine gun will be housed while in Virginia. Include multiple addresses if applicable. Applications for temporary certificates of registration may be
submitted up to 30-days in advance of date machine gun will be in Virginia.

Make sure you get the form notarized. It wouldn't hurt to include a cover letter explaining that you are bringing a registered machinegun that you already own from out of State for lawful use while visiting Virginia. Make sure you return the "green form" back to VSP when you remove the machinegun from Virginia.

"All lawful purposes" works for the "purpose" section of the form.

Posted: 6/1/2017 10:41:33 AM EDT

[#6]

As stated above all lawful purposes and get the form notarized.

Posted: 6/2/2017 9:01:45 AM EDT

[#7]

Thanks for the information folks, I sent the registration in, hopefully it won't take too long to process.

Posted: 6/2/2017 2:28:43 PM EDT

[#8]

Quote History

Quoted:
§ 18.2-291. What constitutes aggressive purpose.
Possession or use of a machine gun shall be presumed to be for an offensive or aggressive purpose:

(4) When empty or loaded shells which have been or are susceptible of use in the machine gun are found in the immediate vicinity thereof.

View Quote

So you can have a machine gun, you just cannot have shells for it in the immediate vicinity?

Posted: 6/2/2017 7:53:26 PM EDT

[#9]

I cannot figure out how to reconcile the code with lawful target shooting with a machine gun.

It doesn't seem to make much sense, even recognizing it only lays out "presumptions" that can be overcome.

It's pretty clear cut in what it says... and yet, that's clearly not the way it's done.

This might become a personal research project.

Posted: 6/2/2017 8:01:54 PM EDT

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:
I cannot figure out how to reconcile the code with lawful target shooting with a machine gun.

It doesn't seem to make much sense, even recognizing it only lays out "presumptions" that can be overcome.

It's pretty clear cut in what it says... and yet, that's clearly not the way it's done.

This might become a personal research project.

View Quote

I think this is probably it:

§ 18.2-293.1. What article does not prohibit.

Nothing contained in this article shall prohibit or interfere with:

(1) The possession of a machine gun for scientific purposes, or the possession of a machine gun not usable as a weapon and possessed as a curiosity, ornament, or keepsake; and

(2) The possession of a machine gun for a purpose manifestly not aggressive or offensive.

Provided, however, that possession of such machine guns shall be subject to the provisions of § 18.2-295.

Code 1950, § 18.1-263; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15.

Posted: 6/3/2017 8:37:46 AM EDT

[#11]

What does the state consider to be a machine gun? Any automatic ?

Posted: 6/3/2017 9:05:54 AM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:
What does the state consider to be a machine gun? Any automatic ?

View Quote

§ 18.2-288 Definitions.

(1) "Machine gun" applies to any weapon which shoots or is designed to shoot automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

Posted: 6/3/2017 2:26:10 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:

I think this is probably it:

§ 18.2-293.1. What article does not prohibit.

Nothing contained in this article shall prohibit or interfere with:

(1) The possession of a machine gun for scientific purposes, or the possession of a machine gun not usable as a weapon and possessed as a curiosity, ornament, or keepsake; and

(2) The possession of a machine gun for a purpose manifestly not aggressive or offensive.

Provided, however, that possession of such machine guns shall be subject to the provisions of § 18.2-295.

Code 1950, § 18.1-263; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15.

View Quote

The problem with this provision is that 18.2-291 expressly provides that having a machine gun with ammunition nearby is an aggressive purpose.

Certainly not what you or I would call aggressive, but the code lays it out as aggressive. Thus, 293.1 can't save us, since having a loaded machine gun (or one with ammo nearby) is an express (presumptively) aggressive purpose.

Posted: 6/6/2017 7:55:56 AM EDT

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:
The problem with this provision is that 18.2-291 expressly provides that having a machine gun with ammunition nearby is an aggressive purpose.

Certainly not what you or I would call aggressive, but the code lays it out as aggressive. Thus, 293.1 can't save us, since having a loaded machine gun (or one with ammo nearby) is an express (presumptively) aggressive purpose.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

I think this is probably it:

§ 18.2-293.1. What article does not prohibit.

Nothing contained in this article shall prohibit or interfere with:

(1) The possession of a machine gun for scientific purposes, or the possession of a machine gun not usable as a weapon and possessed as a curiosity, ornament, or keepsake; and

(2) The possession of a machine gun for a purpose manifestly not aggressive or offensive.

Provided, however, that possession of such machine guns shall be subject to the provisions of § 18.2-295.

Code 1950, § 18.1-263; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15.

The problem with this provision is that 18.2-291 expressly provides that having a machine gun with ammunition nearby is an aggressive purpose.

Certainly not what you or I would call aggressive, but the code lays it out as aggressive. Thus, 293.1 can't save us, since having a loaded machine gun (or one with ammo nearby) is an express (presumptively) aggressive purpose.

which is why you need to "register" a machinegun in Virginia

The way my lawyer explained it is that the act of "registration" removes this aggressive presumption. Remember that the law pre-dates NFA'34. This was a time when laws regarding "future crimes" or divining what the accused was thinking about doing were accepted jurisprudence.

Posted: 6/6/2017 8:00:17 AM EDT

[#15]

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Thanks for the information folks, I sent the registration in, hopefully it won't take too long to process.

View Quote

I mailed a form SP115 on 05/12/17 and received my "Green form" back in the mail on 06/02/17.

Posted: 6/6/2017 2:09:03 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:

which is why you need to "register" a machinegun in Virginia

The way my lawyer explained it is that the act of "registration" removes this aggressive presumption. Remember that the law pre-dates NFA'34. This was a time when laws regarding "future crimes" or divining what the accused was thinking about doing were accepted jurisprudence.

View Quote

The "or" between sections 3 and 4 of 18.2-291 would negate that argument.

This will become my personal project. It should be simple enough to fix.

Posted: 6/6/2017 3:51:53 PM EDT

[#17]

would be even better to eliminate the registry entirely. It duplicates Federal activity, costs the state money, and we can likely show it's never helped solve a single crime.

Posted: 6/6/2017 4:15:49 PM EDT

[#18]

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would be even better to eliminate the registry entirely. It duplicates Federal activity, costs the state money, and we can likely show it's never helped solve a single crime.

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Agreed.

But first, I'd like to at least get it to where you can have a loaded machine gun and not be committing a felony.

Posted: 6/14/2017 11:27:16 AM EDT

[#19]

Quote History

Quoted:
would be even better to eliminate the registry entirely. It duplicates Federal activity, costs the state money, and we can likely show it's never helped solve a single crime.

View Quote

What is really stupid is that, for example;

an HK sear MUST be registered with ATF-NFA but is NOT to be registered with Virginia

HK91 with which you intend to install the sear MUST be registered in Virginia as a "machinegun" but NOT with the ATF-NFA

HK94 converted to MP5 profile and intended to be used with your sear MUST be also registered in Virginia as a "machinegun" and registered with ATF-NFA as a Short Barreled Rifle.

HK-SP89 intended to be used with your sear MUST also be registered in Virginia as a "machinegun" but not necessarily registered with ATF-NFA as an SBR IF you follow the rules to the letter.

You could have a sear and three hosts that are (all at the same time);

3 "machineguns" according to Virginia

AND

1 "machinegun" and 1 "short barreled rifles" 1 title 1 Rifle and 1 title 1 pistol according to the Federal Government.

Posted: 7/3/2017 5:32:42 PM EDT

[#20]

Just an update. I mailed my paperwork on June 1st, the registration was dated June 14th and arrived at my mother's address on June 22nd. All quite painless, too bad it is required at all.

Posted: 7/4/2017 8:40:48 AM EDT

[#21]

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Just an update. I mailed my paperwork on June 1st, the registration was dated June 14th and arrived at my mother's address on June 22nd. All quite painless, too bad it is required at all.

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and pointless. No violent crime is ever prevented or solved with this registration requirement. It simply serves as a bureaucratic exercise to create "paperwork criminals" of those who don't understand the nuisance of the requirement.

Posted: 7/8/2017 11:32:10 PM EDT

[#22]

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and pointless. No violent crime is ever prevented or solved with this registration requirement. It simply serves as a bureaucratic exercise to create "paperwork criminals" of those who don't understand the nuisance of the requirement.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Just an update. I mailed my paperwork on June 1st, the registration was dated June 14th and arrived at my mother's address on June 22nd. All quite painless, too bad it is required at all.

and pointless. No violent crime is ever prevented or solved with this registration requirement. It simply serves as a bureaucratic exercise to create "paperwork criminals" of those who don't understand the nuisance of the requirement.

I don't disagree, but I did not want to become one of those paperwork criminals.

At any rate it was worth it, the family had a great time with the bullet hose.

Posted: 7/11/2017 12:17:06 PM EDT

[#23]

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I don't disagree, but I did not want to become one of those paperwork criminals.

At any rate it was worth it, the family had a great time with the bullet hose.

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No, you had to do it. I do it to. I was just commenting that beyond keeping a few more VSP employees busy filing paperwork, the requirement does NOTHING to prevent or solve crime.

Posted: 7/11/2017 2:33:14 PM EDT

[#24]

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No, you had to do it. I do it to. I was just commenting that beyond keeping a few more VSP employees busy filing paperwork, the requirement does NOTHING to prevent or solve crime.

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Sounds like a project for VCDL to take on. Remove the machine gun registration since it duplicates the Federal registration.

Posted: 7/11/2017 3:21:25 PM EDT

[#25]

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Sounds like a project for VCDL to take on. Remove the machine gun registration since it duplicates the Federal registration.

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That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm going to work on drafting some new legislation in just a few weeks, and see if I can get somebody to pick it up.

Posted: 7/11/2017 8:35:22 PM EDT

[#26]

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That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm going to work on drafting some new legislation in just a few weeks, and see if I can get somebody to pick it up.

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Cool!