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Posted: 7/24/2015 10:00:21 PM EDT
Warning: rant to follow.


I decided I'm carrying everywhere, absolutely fucking everywhere (not like the courthouse). So if I go to the movies and there is a "no guns" sign on the door and I just ignore it and somehow get found out or whatever you want to call it, am I just banned from the premises or am I going to jail?  What's the VA law on these signs?

Reason is, sometimes I don't carry to appease my wife if we're going to a nice dinner or something, but I just gave her a blunt "the world isn't a safe place" talk after the theater shooting. It actually came out of my mouth better than I had thought it in my brain, and I've convinced her to take a ladies only gun class.   And this is a woman that doesn't like guns, doesn't want to be around them, and I can only get her to shoot my .22 (which she actually likes). I've tried to tell her it's a gun.  

So, I've scored two successes tonight. She's going to come shoot my AR's and stuff and take one of those ladies only pistol classes at ESS, and she isn't going to give me shit when I carry 24/7.

So, my original question.  Do those signs mean I'm getting in trouble with the law for ignoring them?  (Yes, concealed means concealed. )
Link Posted: 7/24/2015 10:28:18 PM EDT
[#1]
I think the most they can hold you with is criminal trespassing.. Except for govt buildings and schools.
Link Posted: 7/24/2015 10:30:02 PM EDT
[#2]
I dont know what the law says about the signs, but I know of no law that requires you to be able to read, so how can they hold anyone accountable?
Link Posted: 7/24/2015 10:59:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Other than for things like the courthouse and post office, signs carry absolutely no weight in Virginia law.
They can ask you to leave, and if you refuse you may be charged with trespass, a misdemeanor.

Link Posted: 7/24/2015 11:55:54 PM EDT
[#4]
I was wondering this too.

I was at a cinemark theater and on the doors going in they don't have any signs about no weapons. The only place they had a no weapons sign was at the little podium where the kid was checking tickets. What kind of sense does that make?
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 12:04:45 AM EDT
[#5]
Almost every mall and movie theater in NOVA has a sign posted no weapons allowed.
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 12:43:34 AM EDT
[#6]
My philosophy - concealed means concealed.
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 3:13:40 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Other than for things like the courthouse and post office, signs carry absolutely no weight in Virginia law.
They can ask you to leave, and if you refuse you may be charged with trespass, a misdemeanor.

View Quote



/\ this
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 6:11:40 AM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 7:41:49 AM EDT
[#9]
I would imagine the worst that would happen is having to use your firearm defensively, then going through years and years of lawsuits. Doesn't stop me from carrying, though.
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 11:39:11 AM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:



/\ this
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Other than for things like the courthouse and post office, signs carry absolutely no weight in Virginia law.
They can ask you to leave, and if you refuse you may be charged with trespass, a misdemeanor.




/\ this


That.  It's a case of "their property, their rules", but simply ignoring the signs isn't enough to get you in trouble until they confront you and then you refuse to leave.

Congrats on the wife agreeing to take the class. Even if she doesn't use that to carry on her own, it will give her a better understanding of why you are carrying and ease her fear (if that's the case) of guns.
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 12:01:54 PM EDT
[#11]
This gun sign topic has been argued 1000 times. People tend to bend the law to suit their needs, like when people say that the preacher told them that they could carry in church. Here's the Trespassing statute. My remarks added in red, but you can decide...

§ 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing,  by the owner, lessee, custodian, or the agent of any such person, or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted (Did a sign tell you not to enter their private property with a gun?)by or at the direction of such persons or the agent of any such person or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.


Its a "condition of entry"...meaning you are welcome on our private property as long as you abide by the rules....like, "no shirt, no shoes, no service", etc. People will argue this, and they are certainly entitled to their opinion, since the whole issue is a bit murky. The attorneys I have asked about this have offered the opinion that as soon as you disregard the sign (whether you saw it or not), you are trespassing.

Now, with that being said. you do what you feel that you need to do to protect yourself. For some people, that means they disregard the sign. For others, they may shop elsewhere where they have the ability to protect themselves. As a professional firearms instructor with a business to protect, I can only suggest to my students that they should always try to follow the law, and advocate for changes to the law if the law needs to be changed.

Your mileage may vary....
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 12:18:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This gun sign topic has been argued 1000 times. People tend to bend the law to suit their needs, like when people say that the preacher told them that they could carry in church. Here's the Trespassing statute. My remarks added in red, but you can decide...

§ 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing,  by the owner, lessee, custodian, or the agent of any such person, or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted (Did a sign tell you not to enter their private property with a gun?)by or at the direction of such persons or the agent of any such person or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.


Its a "condition of entry"...meaning you are welcome on our private property as long as you abide by the rules....like, "no shirt, no shoes, no service", etc. People will argue this, and they are certainly entitled to their opinion, since the whole issue is a bit murky. The attorneys I have asked about this have offered the opinion that as soon as you disregard the sign (whether you saw it or not), you are trespassing.

Now, with that being said. you do what you feel that you need to do to protect yourself. For some people, that means they disregard the sign. For others, they may shop elsewhere where they have the ability to protect themselves. As a professional firearms instructor with a business to protect, I can only suggest to my students that they should always try to follow the law, and advocate for changes to the law if the law needs to be changed.

Your mileage may vary....
View Quote


Thank you very much, I appreciate your detailed response.

My concern was more along the lines of this - I'm going to start carry everywhere so I'm not necessarily going to look for a sign or ask for permission (since I already have it in the form of a CHP).  I may honestly miss a sign because I either really miss did it, or just aren't looking anymore, or just ignore it.  The scenario goes like this:

Manager somehow notices my gun and confronts me.  I offer my deepest apologies and say I will leave immediately, I'm a good guy with a permit, I meant no harm, didn't see the sign, etc etc.  My concern is they say "OH NO!  Bullshit - we already called the cops.  We're pressing charges".

Has someone had experience like this?  Are the cops going to arrive and say "Dude, you gotta roll out - you've been officially trespassed and are banned from coming back.  Come back and you're going to jail"  Or, are they going to say "You didn't see the tiny 2" x 2" sign?  Damn.. Well, here are some nice shiny bracelets for you, my car is right over there".

I'm willing to roll the dice that I get banned from a shopping mall or drug store, but I'm not interested in being arrested for a mistake I may have honestly made.
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 12:39:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Thank you very much, I appreciate your detailed response.

My concern was more along the lines of this - I'm going to start carry everywhere so I'm not necessarily going to look for a sign or ask for permission (since I already have it in the form of a CHP).  I may honestly miss a sign because I either really miss did it, or just aren't looking anymore, or just ignore it.  The scenario goes like this:

Manager somehow notices my gun and confronts me.  I offer my deepest apologies and say I will leave immediately, I'm a good guy with a permit, I meant no harm, didn't see the sign, etc etc.  My concern is they say "OH NO!  Bullshit - we already called the cops.  We're pressing charges".

Has someone had experience like this?  Are the cops going to arrive and say "Dude, you gotta roll out - you've been officially trespassed and are banned from coming back.  Come back and you're going to jail"  Or, are they going to say "You didn't see the tiny 2" x 2" sign?  Damn.. Well, here are some nice shiny bracelets for you, my car is right over there".

I'm willing to roll the dice that I get banned from a shopping mall or drug store, but I'm not interested in being arrested for a mistake I may have honestly made.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
This gun sign topic has been argued 1000 times. People tend to bend the law to suit their needs, like when people say that the preacher told them that they could carry in church. Here's the Trespassing statute. My remarks added in red, but you can decide...

§ 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing,  by the owner, lessee, custodian, or the agent of any such person, or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted (Did a sign tell you not to enter their private property with a gun?)by or at the direction of such persons or the agent of any such person or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.


Its a "condition of entry"...meaning you are welcome on our private property as long as you abide by the rules....like, "no shirt, no shoes, no service", etc. People will argue this, and they are certainly entitled to their opinion, since the whole issue is a bit murky. The attorneys I have asked about this have offered the opinion that as soon as you disregard the sign (whether you saw it or not), you are trespassing.

Now, with that being said. you do what you feel that you need to do to protect yourself. For some people, that means they disregard the sign. For others, they may shop elsewhere where they have the ability to protect themselves. As a professional firearms instructor with a business to protect, I can only suggest to my students that they should always try to follow the law, and advocate for changes to the law if the law needs to be changed.

Your mileage may vary....


Thank you very much, I appreciate your detailed response.

My concern was more along the lines of this - I'm going to start carry everywhere so I'm not necessarily going to look for a sign or ask for permission (since I already have it in the form of a CHP).  I may honestly miss a sign because I either really miss did it, or just aren't looking anymore, or just ignore it.  The scenario goes like this:

Manager somehow notices my gun and confronts me.  I offer my deepest apologies and say I will leave immediately, I'm a good guy with a permit, I meant no harm, didn't see the sign, etc etc.  My concern is they say "OH NO!  Bullshit - we already called the cops.  We're pressing charges".

Has someone had experience like this?  Are the cops going to arrive and say "Dude, you gotta roll out - you've been officially trespassed and are banned from coming back.  Come back and you're going to jail"  Or, are they going to say "You didn't see the tiny 2" x 2" sign?  Damn.. Well, here are some nice shiny bracelets for you, my car is right over there".

I'm willing to roll the dice that I get banned from a shopping mall or drug store, but I'm not interested in being arrested for a mistake I may have honestly made.



Well, I spent 12 years in LE, and I know how I would generally handle it......but, again, the attorneys that I have asked about it have said, across the board that you could immediately be arrested for trespassing. Most business owners I think would just ask you to leave, or put it in your car (not a good idea).

I know many people who have been asked to leave a place. I know of no situations where someone was arrested for either the initial trespass, or refusing to leave the property.
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 2:28:54 PM EDT
[#14]
I have been thinking about this today.  Court rulings say if you own a cake shop you must make a wedding cake for a gay marriage, even if it is counter to your beliefs or religion.  The courts reasoning on this is you are a public entity and must serve all public, gay or straight.  Since law abiding CCW holders are not breaking any laws, and simply exercising a right, why can't the same court rulings be applied to prevent stores from posting those no gun signs?
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 3:31:18 PM EDT
[#15]
"OH NO! Bullshit - we already called the cops. We're pressing charges"
View Quote

So you turn around and walk out. How they gonna legally detain you?
Yes, I know concealed means concealed. Personally, I choose to avoid doing business with businesses that post such signs in the first place. And have been known to send them copies of my receipts from their competitors with a letter to show them the business they are losing due to their useless sign.
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 4:41:53 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:

So you turn around and walk out. How they gonna legally detain you?
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"OH NO! Bullshit - we already called the cops. We're pressing charges"

So you turn around and walk out. How they gonna legally detain you?


It's just a theoretical discussion.  It's not about being put under citizens arrest or anything.  Maybe the cops arrived before I knew what was happening.  I just want to be free to leave.


Link Posted: 7/25/2015 5:15:25 PM EDT
[#17]
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. And have been known to send them copies of my receipts from their competitors with a letter to show them the business they are losing due to their useless sign.
View Quote


I do that too. Hit 'em where it hurts.
Link Posted: 7/25/2015 8:49:09 PM EDT
[#18]
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My philosophy - concealed means concealed.

 

Link Posted: 7/25/2015 10:01:53 PM EDT
[#19]
See, I'm of the opinion that being able to protect myself and my family is important. So, if I see a sign that carries no specific force of law (like the 30.06 law down in Texas), then I can choose to disregard that sign. If a cafe decided to post a sign that says, "All females entering the premises must be well endowed and wear only bikinis." most women would choose not to frequent that establishment. Most guys would go in to see how many women obeyed the sign. Either way, the sign carries no force of law.

If the owner notices somehow that I have my concealed handgun, the owner can ask me to leave. If I fail to comply, I can be charged with trespassing. If the owner doesn't ask me to leave, then the assumption can be made that the owner likely doesn't know I'm carrying concealed or doesn't care one way or the other. In any event, a business that is "open to the public at large" has a hard time excluding random portions of the public at large. It's a civil rights thing, you see, since the Supreme Court has ruled that the 2nd Amendment is, more or less, a civil right. Therefore, one could find an opportunistic lawyer to sue the crap out of a business that is trying to violate your civil rights.

All that being said, "concealed means concealed". And, in my case, I refuse to be defenseless when out in public regardless of what a sign may or may not be interpreted to mean.
Link Posted: 7/26/2015 12:58:18 AM EDT
[#20]
I've been round and round with one of the guys from VCDL about this. He's positive and certain that it is only a trespassing charge. He refuses to accept that some CA's may see it otherwise, and because that's VCDL's semi-official position, it must be the gospel.

(Edit: if you're reading this, "no, you're wrong" isn't the way to convince people. Show me some case law, or an AG's opinion. Until then, it's all conjecture and will get you NOWHERE in court.)

I see it very differently.

COV 18.2-308.01 Subsection C states:

C. The granting of a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.

The way this reads to me, is that the permit is not valid once you enter into a posted property. Without a valid permit, you are now carrying a concealed weapon in violation of 18.2-308, just as you would be if you entered a facility that is banned by law (say for example, a courthouse). Your permit holds no weight there, and 'I'm just trespassing' isn't going to fly either.

While I understand the trespassing position, I don't think it's a safe bet to assume that all CA's will see it the same way. Or judges either, for that matter.

With all that said, concealed means concealed, and I am responsible for my own safety.




One last comment, and especially true in legal matters: It doesn't matter what we WANT the law to be, or think it SHOULD be. It matters how it's written, and what levels of scrutiny must be used to hold the statute constitutional. Until SCOTUS admits that 2A requires strict scrutiny (since they've found it to be a fundamental right, and that's the appropriate level of scrutiny), we will continue to see gun control measures pass. Once that scrutiny is applied, you will see most of these types of laws go the way of the dodo. Possibly even permitting requirements for carrying concealed, although that's debatable.

The best way to handle this, and VCDL is amazing at this, is to lobby the legislature to change the statute to exactly what we want it to be. The best method is constitutional carry. The second best method is to write in a statute or the state constitution that protects the right to keep and to bear arms as a fundamental right, which may not be infringed, and write it in such a way that does not allow any infringement at all. Tall order, but it's easier than a SCOTUS gamble.
Link Posted: 7/26/2015 1:52:46 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I've been round and round with one of the guys from VCDL about this. He's positive and certain that it is only a trespassing charge. He refuses to accept that some CA's may see it otherwise, and because that's VCDL's semi-official position, it must be the gospel.

(Edit: if you're reading this, "no, you're wrong" isn't the way to convince people. Show me some case law, or an AG's opinion. Until then, it's all conjecture and will get you NOWHERE in court.)

I see it very differently.

COV 18.2-308.01 Subsection C states:

C. The granting of a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.

The way this reads to me, is that the permit is not valid once you enter into a posted property. Without a valid permit, you are now carrying a concealed weapon in violation of 18.2-308, just as you would be if you entered a facility that is banned by law (say for example, a courthouse). Your permit holds no weight there, and 'I'm just trespassing' isn't going to fly either.

While I understand the trespassing position, I don't think it's a safe bet to assume that all CA's will see it the same way. Or judges either, for that matter.

With all that said, concealed means concealed, and I am responsible for my own safety.




One last comment, and especially true in legal matters: It doesn't matter what we WANT the law to be, or think it SHOULD be. It matters how it's written, and what levels of scrutiny must be used to hold the statute constitutional. Until SCOTUS admits that 2A requires strict scrutiny (since they've found it to be a fundamental right, and that's the appropriate level of scrutiny), we will continue to see gun control measures pass. Once that scrutiny is applied, you will see most of these types of laws go the way of the dodo. Possibly even permitting requirements for carrying concealed, although that's debatable.

The best way to handle this, and VCDL is amazing at this, is to lobby the legislature to change the statute to exactly what we want it to be. The best method is constitutional carry. The second best method is to write in a statute or the state constitution that protects the right to keep and to bear arms as a fundamental right, which may not be infringed, and write it in such a way that does not allow any infringement at all. Tall order, but it's easier than a SCOTUS gamble.
View Quote


I feel like you read my mind. I have been saying that stuff for years.

Well done.
Link Posted: 7/26/2015 6:36:17 AM EDT
[#22]
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My philosophy - concealed means concealed.

 



Yep.

I don't know why this is such a quandary for some to figure out.

That said I suspect it won't be long in places like NoVA where there will be metal detectors at theaters.

At least being older I can tell them it's my hip replacement.
Link Posted: 7/27/2015 10:40:44 AM EDT
[#23]
Criminals are the ones exempt from anything.  Why?  Because laws and rules don't apply to them.  They carry weapons because they have the intent to use them and expect to die the same day.
Link Posted: 7/27/2015 10:45:32 AM EDT
[#24]
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My philosophy - concealed means concealed.

 


Most of the time, those signs are really hard to notice and I just don't see them. Or I come in through a door that doesn't have them. It's amazingly common for something like that to happen. I might not have been given sufficient notice.
Link Posted: 7/29/2015 11:45:38 AM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:


Most of the time, those signs are really hard to notice and I just don't see them. Or I come in through a door that doesn't have them. It's amazingly common for something like that to happen. I might not have been given sufficient notice.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
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My philosophy - concealed means concealed.

 


Most of the time, those signs are really hard to notice and I just don't see them. Or I come in through a door that doesn't have them. It's amazingly common for something like that to happen. I might not have been given sufficient notice.


Agree.  I've actually never seen a "No guns" sign under common observation in Virginia.  That is not saying they do not exist, only that they are variable in location, size, method of display, etc.
Link Posted: 7/29/2015 1:35:09 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:


Agree.  I've actually never seen a "No guns" sign under common observation in Virginia.  That is not saying they do not exist, only that they are variable in location, size, method of display, etc.
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My philosophy - concealed means concealed.

 


Most of the time, those signs are really hard to notice and I just don't see them. Or I come in through a door that doesn't have them. It's amazingly common for something like that to happen. I might not have been given sufficient notice.


Agree.  I've actually never seen a "No guns" sign under common observation in Virginia.  That is not saying they do not exist, only that they are variable in location, size, method of display, etc.

We should use this thread to post photos of them and how hard they are to see.
Link Posted: 7/29/2015 3:03:42 PM EDT
[#27]
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We should use this thread to post photos of them and how hard they are to see.
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I think they're often so hard to see that we shouldn't try to find them and draw attention to them on the Internet.
Link Posted: 7/29/2015 3:27:13 PM EDT
[#28]
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I think they're often so hard to see that we shouldn't try to find them and draw attention to them on the Internet.
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We should use this thread to post photos of them and how hard they are to see.


I think they're often so hard to see that we shouldn't try to find them and draw attention to them on the Internet.


Link Posted: 7/30/2015 1:33:08 PM EDT
[#29]
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Criminals are the ones exempt from anything.  Why?  Because laws and rules don't apply to them.  They carry weapons because they have the intent to use them and expect to die the same day.
View Quote



This is the end state argument to beat all gun control arguments.

It's already against the law to murder someone. Why would a criminal care about some stupid sign, if he was willing to rob or murder?
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 4:13:06 PM EDT
[#30]
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Quoted:



This is the end state argument to beat all gun control arguments.

It's already against the law to murder someone. Why would a criminal care about some stupid sign, if he was willing to rob or murder?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Criminals are the ones exempt from anything.  Why?  Because laws and rules don't apply to them.  They carry weapons because they have the intent to use them and expect to die the same day.



This is the end state argument to beat all gun control arguments.

It's already against the law to murder someone. Why would a criminal care about some stupid sign, if he was willing to rob or murder?


Marginal deterrence in the parlance of law & economics. People about to commit capital crimes with the most severe penalties available will not be further deterred at the margin by some lesser offense that they commit in the process.
Link Posted: 7/30/2015 6:14:52 PM EDT
[#31]
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Marginal deterrence in the parlance of law & economics. People about to commit capital crimes with the most severe penalties available will not be further deterred at the margin by some lesser offense that they commit in the process.
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Criminals are the ones exempt from anything.  Why?  Because laws and rules don't apply to them.  They carry weapons because they have the intent to use them and expect to die the same day.



This is the end state argument to beat all gun control arguments.

It's already against the law to murder someone. Why would a criminal care about some stupid sign, if he was willing to rob or murder?


Marginal deterrence in the parlance of law & economics. People about to commit capital crimes with the most severe penalties available will not be further deterred at the margin by some lesser offense that they commit in the process.


Thanks for the term. I'll stick that one in my back pocket.

And if the lesser offenses are intended to keep the greater ones from happening... but don't... then what's the point?
Link Posted: 7/31/2015 7:22:28 AM EDT
[#32]
I just had a thought.  I'm going to put a sign on my house "no fire allowed", I have been wasting money on fire extinguishers for years when all I needed to do was post a sign and of course there will be no combustion.   People are so stupid.
/rant over
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