So the requirements for the handgun training offer this:  Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in this Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;

I have a permit from another state.  Does that count as "locality thereof"?  I have always assumed that it wasn't sufficient, but I've had several people tell me that it would be fine to meet this requirement.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

I believe that "locality thereof" refers to localities within the Commonwealth.  Thus, I don't think that the law accommodates an out of state permit as demonstration of competency, but any county court can decide otherwise.  It's probably worth checking with the local courthouse.  Worst thing they can say is no.  If they do, it is pretty easy to satisfy competency in VA, so it's not that much work to get a piece of paper that is explicitly recognized under the state code.

Here is the what the law says.  Some localities don't exactly follow it.

- Completing any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries or a similar agency of another state;

- Completing any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;

- Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;

- Completing any law-enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;

- Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;

- Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in this Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;

- Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or on-line course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;

- Completing any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualifying to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties; or

- Completing any other firearms training which the court deems adequate.

Thanks.  I've seen the law.  I've quoted the one part of the law that is relevant to my question.  The use of the word "THIS" commonwealth is what makes me wonder if another state would be valid.

To answer the question you asked: No. Not from that specific portion of the code section. Virginia law is intended to read plainly, so 'This' Commonwealth means Virginia (only), and any locality thereof would mean the subordinate counties and cities that can issue the permit.

But the other section about Other Evidence the Court May Consider, or however it's worded, certainly could apply. So the other folks that have given you advice may be correct, but not necessarily under the quoted portion of the code.

I would certainly think it's reasonable for a Circuit Court Clerk to consider a different state's concealed permit as evidence of safety training, but then again that sort of discretionary decision certainly would depend on the county.

Good luck!

What is the state, and does VA have reciprocity with it?  That may be a point to bring up with the clerk.

Spend $20 and take the online class.  It meets the minimum requirements and is much faster than arguing with your county court house about what is acceptable training.

Thanks for the info guys and the clarification.  Sorry for coming off kinda douchey.  Can someone post the link to the $20 course?

My permit is from WA which I don't believe is reciprocal (VA recognizes their permit, but I don't believe they recognize VAs)

When doing it online, what do you do about having to go to a range and shoot ? Or is range time not required by the state ? I got my cert through Louisa county and we had to go to the range.

Virginia does not require range time.

This is good advice right here. Circuit Court Clerks are elected, constitutional officers who answer to nobody. Arguing with them is one of those things where you're going to lose (usually lots of time and money) even if you "win" in the end.

What training did you use for your original WA permit? NRA course? Hunter Safety class? If you still have the certificate, that should work just fine for Virginia.... training does not expire, and courses are not state specific.

Dear god, please don't suggest that. We don't need any more internet yahoos running around after watching some crappy 30 minute video and then letting their 7 year old answer the 10 question test. Take a real course with a real instructor. Learn gun safety. Learn Virginia carry laws. Learn when you can use deadly force.

My last permit was from Washington.  All I did was go into the Virginia Beach Police Dept, showed my Washington permit to the clerk and she processed my application (for $50 plus fingerprints and background check).  My son just showed his military ID.

I didn't ask if it was OK, I just handed my old permit over and filled out the paperwork, figured it was OK since WA was a reciprocal state....

I know Echomancer personally and he isn't some "internet yahoo".

He can and does shoot and shoot well.

No training requirement in WA - Just FBI Background Check and Fingerprinting

 Thanks BD!

Hardly any of the training courses teach when the use of deadly force is justifiable.  I believe an attorney in VA has written a very nice book on that topic.

Besides, my kid is only 2, but she's very good at clicking on things!  

ALL Virginia law on lethal force is case (common) law.
Some very old.
'The Virginia Gun Owner's guide' (Bloomfield Press) should be required reading.

We have a great body of law, but there are some little things you should be aware of.

Even the police have no special privileges.

For someone who is new to firearms I couldn't agree with you more.  I'm an instructor as well and I have a pretty low opinion of the online classes.  Nothing beats an in person training course from a decent instructor.

But, for someone who is familiar with firearms, has been carrying for a while in another state, and can do some basic research on VA gun laws it is much simpler in the long run to take the online course than it is to try and submit and out of state permit as proof of firearms competency have it turned down and try to appeal.

Normally I would not recommend the online course as "Training" to get a CHP in VA.  But in the OP's case I think the online course is a better method than trying to use his WA permit as proof of training.

VaFish - You know that normally I agree with you 100%. I have to disagree here though.

Naturally, every person and every situation is different. With all due respect to the OP,  it seems from the postings that he has a Washington State permit that was issued with no training requirement (like Pennsylvania) and he has been carrying for a while. He may be very well versed in his gun and have a great deal of experience in carrying properly. The flip side of that is that there are plenty of people driving around with jacks and lug wrenches and no idea how to change a flat tire. We all know people that we have seen at the range that maybe can shoot, and maybe they can't. Maybe they shoot well with their strong side grip, but have never been taught, shown or challenged to shoot with the opposite hand. Maybe they can hit the bullseye every time, but on a silouette target, they do the "two to the body, one to the head" crap that they heard about on the evening news, or from someone else at the range. Do they understand how to shoot, when to shoot, why to shoot, where to shoot? Probably not, unless they have been trained by a competent instructor. Hell, how many times yourself as an instructor do you see someone at the range with a jacked up stance, grip, etc. and when their gun jams, they have to turn to the RSO and ask for help? In our Basic Firearms Safety class, I teach about how to clear semi-auto malfunctions. Some instructors have questioned me and suggested that this is a more advanced skill and its beyond a basic gun safety class. That's bull, because everyone who shoots a semi-auto experiences a malf at some time, and they need to know how to clear it safely and get the gun back into the fight.

The OP may be very knowledgeable and may do just fine with an online certificate. He's not the one I am worried about. Its the next guy, with zero training, and little experience that sees people suggesting an online video and decides that this is their best option.

People think that I don't like the online stuff because I am not making money on it. That's so far from the truth. I could have an online video on our website tomorrow if I wanted to. In fact, we thought of that idea - long before Bob's put out the first course. Back in 2007, when we were researching the idea of a full time firearms training company, we looked at doing an online course. We looked at different types of training that were out there, whether or not it could be done, and if it was legal. After weeks of research, and in agreement with my business analyst, we turned down the idea. I just could not get past the idea of putting my name and reputation on a certificate for someone that I had never laid eyes on, never spoke to, and never answered their questions. To me, its not about the money, its about the quality of the training. Its always been about the training.

We just discussed this on another forum, and in the interest of saving time, I will just copy what I wrote there:

One of the problems with these online classes, aside from them being pure crap and sometimes dangerous, is that most of these instructors are teaching outside of their certification, and that is very important for the student to know about.

The NRA has told all of us (NRA certified instructors) that we are not allowed to use our NRA creds in any way for an online course. That means that someone who calls themselves an NRA instructor in these videos is teaching outside of the scope of his certification. I think that should be easy enough for anyone to understand. Some instructors are fraudulently signing off on training for Florida permits without doing live fire. Florida is cracking down on them and the NRA already said that they would suspend/revoke instructors who are doing that. This is the same thing.

One of these videos I watched had an instructor who claimed that he was Utah BCI certified. A Utah BCI instructor (I know, because I am one) is ONLY allowed to teach the Utah Weapon Familiarity Certification course, and they are forbidden from doing that online. So again, someone teaching outside of their certification if they are using their BCI creds on the certificate.

Lastly, you have "state certified instructors" which in Virginia means DCJS certified law enforcement or private security services instructors. I am the later, and was the former, and I can tell you that neither is (generally) allowed to sign off on a gun safety class for a CHP. (The rare exceptions usually being Sheriffs/PD that offer some type of class as a benefit to the community)

So what does it matter? Well, when NRA/DCJS/Utah BCI gets a wild hair and they decide to pull that instructor's certification, all of those permits could be pulled/canceled/revoked/suspended since they were not properly issued.

That's just my .02,...your mileage may vary.

Hadn't thought about that one.  That is a serious concern.

I know NRA has pulled instructors creds in the past and several years ago around 75 people in Fairfax County had their CHP's revoked because an instructor had his NRA credentials revoked and continued to teach classes and issue photo copy certificates of NRA courses with his NRA number on them.  Fairfax occasionally does check with NRA on the instructors validity.

There was an NRA memo out not too long ago about instructors doing Florida CHP's and not doing live fire...the NRA was going to pull those creds too. An instructor in Ohio got busted too for not doing things the right way - http://www.clermontsheriff.org/Press051407.aspx


Imagine that you take your $30 online course and apply and 2 years later, XYZ county voids your CHP because the NRA called them and said that the cert was issued improperly. Now, you have nothing but headaches. Its just easier to do it the right way, the first time.

Its a slippery slope for instructor and student alike. I have seen it all, I swear. Hell, we had one guy in Virginia that was doing NRA Home Firearms Safety as a mail order class.

If the NRA even knows that I have a CHP AND what training I demonstrated to get it, and a phone call from them somehow interfered with my CHP, we have much bigger problems...

There is no provision in the written law to revoke a permit under such circumstances so please show case law where this has happened or please stop spreading FUD.

Quote History

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If the NRA even knows that I have a CHP AND what training I demonstrated to get it, and a phone call from them somehow interfered with my CHP, we have much bigger problems...

There is no provision in the written law to revoke a permit under such circumstances so please show case law where this has happened or please stop spreading FUD.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:


Imagine that you take your $30 online course and apply and 2 years later, XYZ county voids your CHP because the NRA called them and said that the cert was issued improperly. Now, you have nothing but headaches. Its just easier to do it the right way, the first time.

If the NRA even knows that I have a CHP AND what training I demonstrated to get it, and a phone call from them somehow interfered with my CHP, we have much bigger problems...

There is no provision in the written law to revoke a permit under such circumstances so please show case law where this has happened or please stop spreading FUD.

From the NRA memo to instructors regarding online traiining:

The National Rifle Association of America currently has no online firearm training
courses. All of our firearm training courses (Home Firearm Safety excluded) have a
shooting component on a range. Some NRA certified instructors have created online
firearm training programs, and have issued certificates to individuals that take their
courses, using the title NRA Certified Instructor. Under no circumstances may NRA
name or your NRA credentials be associated with any online firearms training
course. If NRA's name or your NRA credentials are associated with a course, you
must, among other things, actually work with the students, face-to-face, to allow you to
evaluate whether they perform the safe operation of a firearm, and shoot with a
sufficient level of skill. This policy applies to any course which might result in issuing
any certificate that bears the title of NRA Certified Instructor, or if the course is
associated in any way whatsoever with a certification issued by the NRA.






All you need is one person screwing something up for a chain reaction to occur:

Florida:

 OrlandoSentinel.com
Florida under fire for its lax training requirements to carry hidden guns

Henry Pierson Curtis, Sentinel Staff Writer
April 29, 2008



Some of the 500,000 people holding concealed-weapons permits in Florida qualified by using toy guns. Recent complaints to state officials pointed out that almost anyone who wants to carry a handgun to the movies, mall or church can do so. The shortcomings they cited include training that allows firing bullets without gunpowder, and passing students for merely pulling the trigger once or twice without ever loading or unloading a handgun.

Quickie permit classes had become so common, the National Rifle Association threatened this month to fire any NRA-certified instructor who didn't use real guns to teach students in Florida.Though carrying a concealed weapon requires a state permit, gun owners need only take a gun-safety course and show they know how to safely fire a real bullet. That's not the case in at least eight states — where applicants must be able to hit a bulls-eye repeatedly. "Unlike Texas, we do not have to have so many rounds at 10feet or so many rounds at 15feet. Florida just doesn't have that," said Buddy Bevis, director of licensing for the state Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. The concealed-weapon statute "just says you have to be able to fire and handle a firearm safely," he said. "It doesn't say if it takes one [shot] or 100."



Shoddy training became an issue this month, more than a year after a retired military officer first complained to Gov. Charlie Crist about classes at gun shows. "You can only train a corpse in 3 hours," Col. James K. Otto Sr., an NRA instructor from North Florida, wrote to the governor. "Our NRA certified instructors take 3 days to a week to make sure their students not only know the law but also know how to handle firearms and ammunition safely with at least a half day firing at a local range."  The letter started a sputtering chain reaction after landing on Bevis' desk with the added detail that some students at these classes trained with toy guns. Bevis called the voice of the NRA in Florida to complain. "I did call Marion Hammer and say, 'I don't know what you've got going on down there, but you better tighten it up,'" Bevis said in a telephone interview. "And that's it."  Hammer, a former NRA president and one of the state's most powerful lobbyists, alerted NRA national headquarters. Within days, every NRA-certified instructor in Florida was warned they would lose their credentials for not using real guns with real bullets in class. "Specifically, Air Soft or other air-driven guns are not acceptable," stated the April14 memo. "Florida law requires that you maintain records certifying that you 'observed the student safely handle and discharge the firearm.'"

Air Soft guns are plastic replicas of firearms, which cost as little as $5 to more than $300. Many are sold as toys equipped with orange muzzles to distinguish them from real guns. Hammer said the NRA issued the warning to make sure every class it certifies complies with state law. She finds nothing wrong with not requiring concealed-weapon permit holders to demonstrate a minimum level of shooting ability. "In the 21 years that this program has been in effect, I know of no incident or accident that occurred as a result of lack of training," Hammer said by phone from Tallahassee.

The law "was never intended to make target shooters out of people. It was never intended to make street cops out of them," she said. "This is merely to show that individuals know how to load, unload and safely use a firearm for lawful self-defense." Florida permit holders can carry their concealed weapons in 32 other states. Fifteen other states do not grant such reciprocity. One of them, South Carolina, cites Florida's low standards as the reason.  The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence advocates rigorous testing of shooting ability, knowledge of state laws and giving law enforcement discretion over who should be allowed to carry a hidden handgun. "In Florida, where you're permitting them to legally carry a loaded, hidden handgun in a crowded situation where people may be running all over the place and then you're expecting them with no training to hit their mark — that's crazy," said Brian Malte, the group's director of state legislation and politics in Washington. "Law-enforcement officers ... miss their mark 80percent of the time even after all the training they get."

Tighter restrictions on toy guns still don't mean all applicants must show they know how to shoot a pistol. Besides NRA-certified courses, concealed-weapon permits are available to graduates of classes taught by state-certified instructors and hunter-safety courses. Graduates of the state's 12-hour hunter-safety course fire a .22-caliber rifle, a 20-gauge shotgun and a bow and arrow, but not a pistol, according to the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. Many Central Florida gun-shop owners are critical of quickie permit classes. "If somebody was to cold call and say, 'Hey, I've never fired a gun before and I want to take your concealed-weapon class,' we will not allow them to sign up for the class," said John Ritz, manager of East Orange Shooting Sports in Winter Park. "It's not an introduction-to-shooting class. It's not a brand-new, basic beginner's class. We have those classes, and we do those classes several times a week."

Ritz estimated that about 1percent of permit holders actually carry their guns daily. Those tend to be shooting enthusiasts, who fire at least 50bullets in practice each month. Perhaps 25percent of his students occasionally go armed and the rest almost never do, he said. Soon, gun owners in Florida will be allowed to take their weapons to work.. Floridians already had the right to keep a loaded handgun in their vehicles. The new law, which takes effect July1, lets gun owners park on company property and leave a handgun locked in the trunk. Few safe places remain in Central Florida's urban sprawl for shooters to practice.

Orange County — home to more than 23,000 concealed-weapon permit holders and 70 gun dealers — has five public shooting ranges and one private gun club, records show. Shoot Straight in Apopka, one of Florida's busiest gun stores, allows inexperienced shooters to take its permit classes. But store manager Larry Anderson said instructors stress that anyone carrying a firearm in public should be so skilled that its use is second nature. "People need to practice more, there's no doubt about that," he said. "You need to be so proficient with that gun, you're comfortable."  


Ohio

Clermont County, Ohio - A Firearms Safety Instructor has been arrested for failing to provide legally mandated training to Ohio concealed carry applicants. David M. Clark, who conducted classes just east of Amelia, Ohio was arrested on Friday, May 11, 2007, and charged with four (4) counts of Falsification, a misdemeanor of the first degree.  An investigation was launched after Chief Deputy Rick Combs received information which raised suspicions about the training and the curriculum. Ohio’s concealed carry law requires twelve hours of training, including ten hours in a classroom and two hours at a firing range.  Investigators assigned to the case completed the preliminary investigation and filed the charges Friday. Since the classes are not offered on a fixed schedule, but rather, held at times based upon enrollment, the investigation had been ongoing for several months.

Our staff is reviewing available records and evidence in an attempt to identify those concealed carry applicants who were short changed on the classroom training or range instruction.  Once we have the necessary information and records, those falling short of the training requirements will be contacted.  Investigators have been able to determine that training offered beginning in November, 2006 and continuing through May 11, 2007, was flawed and not within the requirements of Ohio law. Once the concealed carry license holders who took training from Clark during this time period have been identified they will be notified by our office that their concealed carry licenses are temporarily suspended.  They will have 30 days from our notice to them to take the required training from another certified instructor or face revocation of their concealed carry license.  Ohio law requires an applicant to provide a certificate of completion from a qualified and certified firearms instructor for the issuance of a license. The Sheriff’s Office then checks the applicant’s background for disqualifying criminal convictions or involuntarily commitment to a mental health facility.

This is the first case of its type in Clermont County and I am only aware of one similar case in Ohio since the inception of the concealed carry law in April, 2004.  Clark’s arrest and charges have been reported to the Ohio Attorney Generals Office and the National Rifle Association through which he holds his instructor’s certification. We have also notified all other Ohio Sheriffs of the situation just in the case some of those certified by Clark have applied for a concealed carry license at their offices.

After his arrest last Friday, Clark was released on his own recognizance by the court with the condition that he not conduct nor participate in any instruction associated with Ohio’s Concealed Carry Law.  A jail booking photograph of Clark can be obtained by contacting Mary Gregory at 732-7405.

This week the Clermont County Sheriff’s Office will begin contacting those concealed carry license holders who took less than the required amount of instruction from Clark.  We ask license holders not to contact our office for information concerning this matter, but rather, wait to be notified by us as the process moves forward.

Charged:
Mr. David M. Clark – 48 years old
2589 Sprague Road (home address)
Bethel, Ohio 45106

1958 State Route 125 Suite E (business address)
Amelia, Ohio 45102


Illinois

 SPRINGFIELD – Illinois State Police (ISP) announced today that another firearms instructor from Bolingbrook is no longer approved to instruct Illinois Concealed Carry Curricula, and 327 applicants trained by the instructor will receive notification that their application has been denied due to improper training.

Since January, ISP has investigated numerous complaints from the public alleging that firearms instructors were improperly training and /or awarding certificates to students who had not completed the required 16 hours of training required by law.   The Firearms Concealed Carry Act (430 ILCS 66/75) states that firearms instructors are required to teach all applicants, who are not eligible for prior training credit, a minimum of 16 hours of curriculum approved by the Illinois State Police prior to receiving an Illinois Concealed Carry License Training Certificate.

After conducting numerous interviews and reviewing records, ISP investigators have confirmed that the training was not conducted in accordance with the law, and are in the process of providing investigative findings to the Will County State’s Attorney’s Office.

“The public expects firearms instructors to provide a thorough understanding and solid foundation of the curriculum and practical training that meets all qualifications of the law,” said ISP Director Hiram Grau.  “When these instructors fall short, safety is compromised and the integrity of the training process raises concerns,” he stressed.

The ISP is notifying the applicants that their training is invalid and their applications will be denied.  The applicants will have the opportunity to become re-trained without incurring the $150.00 application fee, and will be allowed to appeal the denial by submitting a written petition through the ISP’s administrative review process.

Once the Will County State’s Attorney’s Office has reviewed the ISP’s investigative findings, prosecutors will work with the ISP to determine if sanctions against the firearms instructors are appropriate.

A list of more than 2700 certified firearms instructors can be found on the ISP Concealed Carry website, and any instructor who is no longer approved will be eliminated from the approved list.

These investigations remain on-going and the public is encouraged to file complaints. To date, 13 firearms instructors are no longer approved to teach Illinois Concealed Carry Curricula, and 425 applicants have been notified of the invalid training.    Beginning today, the ISP will be posting the names of the unapproved instructors on the Concealed Carry website under the firearms instructor section.

Integrity is an important part of the Concealed Carry License process and the Illinois State Police is committed to ensuring the guidelines and criteria are met under the law. The ISP strongly urges applicants to review the rules governing the firearms training requirements, ask questions and demand credentials from the certified firearms instructor they are considering.

The public can report abuses by completing the complaint form on the ISP Concealed Carry website at: http://www.isp.state.il.us/, or by calling (217) 782-7980.  

There are many DCJS-PSS Instructors conducting basic firearms classes in Virginia. Multiple Private Security Schools (at least in the Hampton Roads area) offer them. As for the NRA instructor issue, the NRA can take administrative action against an instructor for not meeting their standards, but as long as the training met the Commonwealth's requirements, there would be little chance of the Circuit Court revoking or suspending a valid CHP.

Don't take this as me disagreeing with you on the issue of training quality, because I'm right there with you on that.

The hunter safety course is sufficient under the law.
So far there has not been a problem.

The yahoos likely to engage in gun 'play' are not going through the trouble of getting a permit.
Based on shootings statewide we are all rather peaceable.

Any number of jurisdictions (I am most familiar with NoVA) denied permits before 'shall issue' was passed.
At least some of them used 'training' as an excuse.
It was a rather sensitive subject when 'shall issue' was passed since we had seen it already.