Please read before submitting your CCL Application

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Please read before submitting your CCL Application

Posted: 12/23/2013 6:51:58 AM EDT

The ISP are aware of individuals who have been holding non-approved Concealed Carry Classes in Illinois all year. A supervisor in the Firearms Bureau told me on Friday that they will deny any CCL application that is submitted with training "certificates" issued by certain "instructors". I was also told that the $150 application fee is non-refundable and that being denied for incomplete/improper training would probably not be appealable, because, in their view, it is the applicant's responsibility to have read the law and ensure that the training they took was compliant.

If you have training certificates, I would humbly suggest that you check out whoever issued them before submitting your CCL App.

If you have NRA Certificates, go HERE and verify that the person who issued it is indeed an NRA Instructor.

If you have an Illinois State Police Certificate (You need one to apply for a CCL), go HERE and verify if the person who issued it is indeed an ISP approved instructor.

I wish the ISP would just publish a list of revoked/blacklisted instructors, but like everything else, they leave it up to us to do our homework.

Best,

bobapunk

Posted: 12/23/2013 7:58:42 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

If you have training certificates, I would humbly suggest that you check out whoever issued them before submitting your CCL App.

If you have NRA Certificates, go HERE and verify that the person who issued it is indeed an NRA Instructor.

Best,
bobapunk

View Quote

How do you check on a NRA instructor on the link ?

Posted: 12/23/2013 8:02:33 AM EDT

[#2]

The NRA Number of the instructor and their last name.

Posted: 12/23/2013 8:23:07 AM EDT

[#3]

Good advice Boba.

Found this over at GunsSaveLife this morning...

http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=10284

Cliff’s Notes:

If your instructor cuts corners in your class, ending the class (hours) early, failing to give you anything close to four hours of weapons handling or deliberately skipping elements required to be taught by Illinois’ new carry law, ask for your money back.

Why?

Because when that instructor is reported to the Illinois State Police by other students, his or her credentials will be pulled. Why does that matter to you?

Well once those credentials are invalidated, that piece of paper you got titled,
Illinois State Police
Concealed Carry Firearm Training Certificate

won’t be worth the paper it’s printed on as the Illinois State Police most likely will not accept it for your training. You’ll be out the money you spent to attend the class because you didn’t ask for your money back when you took the class.

If the instructor or school refuses to reimburse you for the non-compliant class, then you can go to the Illinois State Police CCW website and download the complaint form and report how the class was non-compliant.

Again, if the instructor’s credentials are pulled, you will have to re-take the course from another trainer – at your own expense – if you want that carry license. So encourage your instructor to follow the State’s requirements, or ask for your money back.

Under this “Ask for your money back” plan, ethically-challenged instructors will be enticed to comply with the State’s requirements (and NRA requirements) or face a number of unhappy students demanding a refund of tuition fees and/or a raft of notarized complaints arriving at the ISP’s Post Office Box in Springfield with his or her name on them.

Posted: 12/23/2013 8:49:49 AM EDT

[#4]

And yet again GSL is a day late and a dollar short...

Per the ISP's Rules, a class needs to contain only ONE(1) hour of Firearms Handling:

271 d) Training necessary for issuance of the FCCL shall consist of 16 hours of

272 classroom and firearm training. Pursuant to Section 75(g), (h) and (i) of the Act,

273 fewer hours of training, or no additional training, will be acceptable in certain

274 instances indicating prior firearms training.

275

276 1) A 16 hour training course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:

277

278 A) Firearms Safety - a minimum of 1 hour;

279

280 B) Basic Principles of Marksmanship - a minimum of 1 hour;

281

282 C) Care, Cleaning, Loading and Unloading of a Concealable Firearm

283 - a minimum of 1 hour;

284

285 D) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership,

286 Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm - a minimum of 2

287 hours; and

288

289 E) Weapons Handling - a minimum of 1 hour.

290

291 2) An 8 hour training course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:

292

293 A) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership,

294 Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm - a minimum of 2

295 hours; and

296

297 B) Weapons Handling - a minimum of 1 hour.

Posted: 12/23/2013 10:13:29 AM EDT

[#5]

I think they may be operating under the course curriculum approval letter or whatever that thing is at ISP.

5. Weapon Handling; Minimum 4 hours.
______ a. Dry fi re practice drills, handgun fundamentals
______ b. Dry fi re practice drills from concealment
______ c. Live fi re practice drills, handgun fundamentals
______ d. Live fi re qualifi cation with a concealable fi rearm consisting of minimum of 30 rounds which must
include 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards; 10 rounds from a distance of 7 yards; and 10 rounds
from a distance of 10 yards at a B-27 silhouette target approved by the Illinois State Police. (See
www.isp.state.il.us/firearms/ccw/ccw-faq.cfm)

View Quote

I think this spring I'm gonna look for a class that offers at least four hours of weapons handling, myself. Better to land on the side of caution.

As an aside, I'm getting confused about all these state rules. Wasn't this whole curriculum approvel crap state rulemaking?

And now Boba, you're saying it's only one hour?

What gives?

Posted: 12/23/2013 10:48:21 AM EDT

[#6]

I talked to Boch and he told me this "one hour minimum" is, as best he understands, proposed rulemaking.

He admitted he doesn't fully understand this state rulemakign business. Hell I know I don't.

Very approachable guy. Just called him from his # in back of GunNews.

Sometimes I wish I had Rich Pearson's cell phone.

Posted: 12/23/2013 11:59:30 AM EDT

[#7]

ILGA said this:

(b) An applicant for a new license shall provide proof of

completion of a firearms training course or combination of

courses approved by the Department of at least 16 hours, which

includes range qualification time under subsection (c) of this

Section, that covers the following:

(1) firearm safety;

(2) the basic principles of marksmanship;

(3) care, cleaning, loading, and unloading of a

concealable firearm;

(4) all applicable State and federal laws relating to

the ownership, storage, carry, and transportation of a

firearm; and

(5) instruction on the appropriate and lawful

interaction with law enforcement while transporting or

carrying a concealed firearm.

(c) An applicant for a new license shall provide proof of

certification by a certified instructor that the applicant

passed a live fire exercise with a concealable firearm

consisting of:

(1) a minimum of 30 rounds; and

(2) 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards; 10 rounds

from a distance of 7 yards; and 10 rounds from a distance

of 10 yards at a B-27 silhouette target approved by the

Department.

NOTE: There are no time constraints on the 5 elements that the 16 hour course is comprised of

The ISP put forth this in their "Emergency" Rules:

"Weapons Handling Instruction" means, at a minimum:

dry fire practice drills -

handgun fundamentals;

dry fire practice drills from concealment; and

live fire practice drills -

handgun fundamentals;

live tire qualification with a concealable firearm consisting of a minimum

of 30 rounds and 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards, 10 rounds from a

distance of 7 yards and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards at a B-27

silhouette target.

1) A 16 hour training course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:

A) Firearms Safety- a minimum of 2 classroom hours;

B) Basic Principles of Marksmanship- a minimum of3 classroom

and range hours;

C) Care, Cleaning, Loading and Unloading of a Concealable Firearm

-a minimum of 3 classroom hours;

D) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership,

Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm - a minimum of 4

classroom hours; and

E) Weapons Handling- a minimum of 4 range hours.

There was a significant backlash about the ISP mandated minimum hours spent. ISP noted that the

minimums they indicated were assuming that all students would be novice firearm owners so they revised it.

This is what is in the ISP Permanent Rules that were accepted and recommended for advancement by JCAR:

271 d) Training necessary for issuance of the FCCL shall consist of 16 hours of

272 classroom and firearm training. Pursuant to Section 75(g), (h) and (i) of the Act,

273 fewer hours of training, or no additional training, will be acceptable in certain

274 instances indicating prior firearms training.

275

276 1) A 16 hour training course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:

277

278 A) Firearms Safety - a minimum of 1 hour;

279

280 B) Basic Principles of Marksmanship - a minimum of 1 hour;

281

282 C) Care, Cleaning, Loading and Unloading of a Concealable Firearm

283 - a minimum of 1 hour;

284

285 D) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership,

286 Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm - a minimum of 2

287 hours; and

288

289 E) Weapons Handling - a minimum of 1 hour.

290

291 2) An 8 hour training course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:

292

293 A) All Applicable State and Federal Laws Relating to the Ownership,

294 Storage, Carry and Transportation of a Firearm - a minimum of 2

295 hours; and

296

297 B) Weapons Handling - a minimum of 1 hour.

298

299 3) For the topics to be included in the 16 hour and 8 hour training courses,

300 the minimum hours established in this subsection (d) have been

301 determined to be sufficient for the experienced shooter and shall be

302 adjusted upward by the approved instructor based upon the skill level of

303 those to be trained to ensure proficiency by all upon the completion of the

304 required training component.

Posted: 12/23/2013 12:44:42 PM EDT

[#8]

Thanks. I'll let him know.

Posted: 12/23/2013 4:18:51 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
ILGA said this:

[/span]

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Hey Boba, this is CGS from IC.

Posted: 12/23/2013 6:27:51 PM EDT

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:

Hey Boba, this is CGS from IC.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

ILGA said this:

[/span]

Hey Boba, this is CGS from IC.

Hello, brother!

Posted: 12/23/2013 8:41:20 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
The ISP are aware of individuals who have been holding non-approved Concealed Carry Classes in Illinois all year. A supervisor in the Firearms Bureau told me on Friday that they will deny any CCL application that is submitted with training "certificates" issued by certain "instructors". I was also told that the $150 application fee is non-refundable and that being denied for incomplete/improper training would probably not be appealable, because, in their view, it is the applicant's responsibility to have read the law and ensure that the training they took was compliant.

If you have training certificates, I would humbly suggest that you check out whoever issued them before submitting your CCL App.

If you have NRA Certificates, go HERE and verify that the person who issued it is indeed an NRA Instructor.

If you have an Illinois State Police Certificate (You need one to apply for a CCL), go HERE and verify if the person who issued it is indeed an ISP approved instructor.

I wish the ISP would just publish a list of revoked/blacklisted instructors, but like everything else, they leave it up to us to do our homework.

Best,
bobapunk

View Quote

Trust me I understand as well as the Next guy but it seems to me that once the word gets out that you and everyone else whom took those courses just lost 16+ hours + $150 + $$$Training . I see Less and less complaints being filed .
If you have a Complaint Filed against you Do you have the right to know lodged said complaint

Posted: 12/24/2013 3:56:09 AM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:
Trust me I understand as well as the Next guy but it seems to me that once the word gets out that you and everyone else whom took those courses just lost 16+ hours + $150 + $$$Training . I see Less and less complaints being filed .

If you have a Complaint Filed against you Do you have the right to know lodged said complaint

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

The ISP are aware of individuals who have been holding non-approved Concealed Carry Classes in Illinois all year. A supervisor in the Firearms Bureau told me on Friday that they will deny any CCL application that is submitted with training "certificates" issued by certain "instructors". I was also told that the $150 application fee is non-refundable and that being denied for incomplete/improper training would probably not be appealable, because, in their view, it is the applicant's responsibility to have read the law and ensure that the training they took was compliant.

If you have training certificates, I would humbly suggest that you check out whoever issued them before submitting your CCL App.

If you have NRA Certificates, go HERE and verify that the person who issued it is indeed an NRA Instructor.

If you have an Illinois State Police Certificate (You need one to apply for a CCL), go HERE and verify if the person who issued it is indeed an ISP approved instructor.

I wish the ISP would just publish a list of revoked/blacklisted instructors, but like everything else, they leave it up to us to do our homework.

Best,

bobapunk

Trust me I understand as well as the Next guy but it seems to me that once the word gets out that you and everyone else whom took those courses just lost 16+ hours + $150 + $$$Training . I see Less and less complaints being filed .

If you have a Complaint Filed against you Do you have the right to know lodged said complaint

A. I am an instructor, I did not personally pay for any fraudulent training. I have had several people show up to my Second 8 Hr classes with Counterfeit NRA Certificates (verified counterfeit by NRA T&E), and I have been in contact with about 5 dozen more. These fakes were all been issued by the same individual. He is no longer an NRA Instructor and is also NOT in the ISP Database of IL-CCI's.

B. Are you insinuating that instructors who intentionally set out to steal people's money are going to "pay a visit" to individuals who turn them in the ISP?

Posted: 12/24/2013 8:23:25 AM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
A. I am an instructor, I did not personally pay for any fraudulent training. I have had several people show up to my Second 8 Hr classes with Counterfeit NRA Certificates (verified counterfeit by NRA T&E), and I have been in contact with about 5 dozen more. These fakes were all been issued by the same individual. He is no longer an NRA Instructor and is also NOT in the ISP Database of IL-CCI's.

B. Are you insinuating that instructors who intentionally set out to steal people's money are going to "pay a visit" to individuals who turn them in the ISP?

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
The ISP are aware of individuals who have been holding non-approved Concealed Carry Classes in Illinois all year. A supervisor in the Firearms Bureau told me on Friday that they will deny any CCL application that is submitted with training "certificates" issued by certain "instructors". I was also told that the $150 application fee is non-refundable and that being denied for incomplete/improper training would probably not be appealable, because, in their view, it is the applicant's responsibility to have read the law and ensure that the training they took was compliant.

If you have training certificates, I would humbly suggest that you check out whoever issued them before submitting your CCL App.

If you have NRA Certificates, go HERE and verify that the person who issued it is indeed an NRA Instructor.

If you have an Illinois State Police Certificate (You need one to apply for a CCL), go HERE and verify if the person who issued it is indeed an ISP approved instructor.

I wish the ISP would just publish a list of revoked/blacklisted instructors, but like everything else, they leave it up to us to do our homework.

Best,
bobapunk

Trust me I understand as well as the Next guy but it seems to me that once the word gets out that you and everyone else whom took those courses just lost 16+ hours + $150 + $$$Training . I see Less and less complaints being filed .
If you have a Complaint Filed against you Do you have the right to know lodged said complaint

A. I am an instructor, I did not personally pay for any fraudulent training. I have had several people show up to my Second 8 Hr classes with Counterfeit NRA Certificates (verified counterfeit by NRA T&E), and I have been in contact with about 5 dozen more. These fakes were all been issued by the same individual. He is no longer an NRA Instructor and is also NOT in the ISP Database of IL-CCI's.

B. Are you insinuating that instructors who intentionally set out to steal people's money are going to "pay a visit" to individuals who turn them in the ISP?

My days of making a surprise visit are long long over LOL LOL
I reread my Post I would want to know if it was an actual Student of making the complaint or if was someone else ,Oh lets say a competitor , a pissed off neighbor
No What I am Saying is that once students find out they might lose it all , they will be reluctant to turn in any instructor for fear of having to pay and go through the training again
I too have had people I work/have worked with come up to me and ask if I am going to make them sit through the Whole 16 hours . My Reply "Dont insult Me You know better to even ask Its by the book I have too much invested to fuck it up Best of luck Move on"

Posted: 12/24/2013 12:55:11 PM EDT

[#14]

Should just push to eliminate the goofy training requirement ...

Posted: 12/25/2013 7:16:32 PM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
Should just push to eliminate the goofy training requirement ...

View Quote

What? And lose their status as "longest required classroom for a shall-issue state?"

What's next... Dropping from #2 most expensive, or leaving the "our training or nothing" club?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Please read before submitting your CCL Application

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