Is it a $200 stamp?  Is it only good for one rifle?  How long does it generally take?  Looking at building a .300 blk and am trying to decide the overall direction that I want to go.  16" seems to be way to long if I ever intend to put a can on it.

I recommend going pistol and putting a Sig Brace on to test the water.










 

So do you register the lower as an SBR?  In theory you could then swap out uppers to mix and match?  Say I was to buy a 10.5" 5.56 upper as well.  Can it then be mounted on the SBR lower?

Honestly, I would suggest you take a look at the NFA Forum (under Armory). Your questions are VERY common and there is a ton of more information in that section than I could possibly provide here.

Generally, you would file a Form 1 on a lower and could use it for multiple different uppers. Time varies depending on if you efile or paper file. There is a thread in the NFA section about wait times.

Spend an afternoon doing research, and if you have further questions (and you will) post them in the NFA section.

Good luck!

Call Craig...

http://gunrightsattorneys.com/kubiak-law-office-llc-wisconsin-national-firearms-act-trust-attorney-wisconsin-business-law-attorney-wisconsin-estate-planning-attorney-wisconsin-general-practice-lawyer/

Then call Todd.

http://www.btkfirearms.com/

I've gone both ways - CLEO and trust.  
I was forced to go with a CLEO once VanHollen, our current attorney general, screwed up the state MG rules.

If you have a good CLEO, it's much cleaner and less paperwork than the trust route.  
Trust is a little more discreet and flexible.  
In the end, they don't want you to have any of it, regardless of what you do.  Pick your poison.  None of it should be required in the first place.  

This.

There's no tenuous paperwork to generate and maintain. No transport issues, no state to state issues, no lending/possession issues, and it's GTG locked and loaded on your CCW.

Why oh why would you complicate it with a stamp?

Craig Kubiak did my trust.  Great guy, I'd use him again.

For getting cans, look up leotrainer on here.  His shop, shooting systems, is in Verona.  He's a great guy, with excellent pricing.  He handled the group buy I ran earlier this year, and made it a breeze to get orders placed, very responsive with pricing, etc.  10/10 would do business with him again.

Either way, if you're going to do a trust, do it soon.  41p is rumored to be going into effect in may...

This is good advice... You want to go into that with as much knowledge as you can... Me personally, The cost and the red tape and the .Gov involvement is just not worth it for  about 3-4" of barrel... I have been just fine for years with a 14.5" and a perm FH,

The Sig Brace is a good way to try it to see if you really want to go that route..

Yes and yes.

Craig is a solid dude.

I've been through this both ways.  The trust route is more appealing to me because I'm a machinist by trade, I can make my own suppressors rather than buy, and the only way to currently use the E Form system, is via legal entity for Form 1s.  Whether you need a lawyer to write your trust, or not, depends entirely on you.  There are hundreds if not thousands of trusts that have been created through forms, legal zoom, Quicken, etc, as well as some valid arguments for using an attorney.  But because we're talking about a legal matter, there is no concrete black and white answer.  You have to make that decision.

If you want to do it as an individual, you need to ask yourself some questions.  Is your CLEO NFA friendly?  Are there others in your area who have gotten sign offs?  Do you have a plan for how they will be handled in your estate if you were to die unexpectedly?  Do you want other people, or may you in the future want other people, to have access to your NFA items?

T-800 mentions above he feels individual sign off is cleaner and less paperwork.  For 1 NFA item that is true.  For multiple NFA items, over the course of one's life, I disagree.  With a trust, I don't have to submit photos or fingerprints.  I don't have to make a trip to the Sheriff's office.  What happens to the NFA items is clearly defined should I die unexpectedly.  I don't have to worry about leaving them in my wife's possession.  On top of all of that, I can use E Forms for Form 1's, which are the vast majority of forms I do, and it literally eliminates paperwork, not to mention 30-40 day turn around times on approval.  Once your trust is created, it's no longer another piece of paperwork to be processed for each item.  Unless you modify it, it doesn't change.

That said, here are the steps you follow to obtain an SBR as an individual:

1>Determine that you have a CLEO willing to sign off.  If you do not, there is no point in proceeding further as an individual in my opinion.
2>Determine what your SBR will be.  Caliber, length of barrel, OAL, and what lower you will be using.  Obtain the lower now if you haven't already.
3>Fill out a Form 1, in duplicate.  http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf
4>Fill out a Form 5330.20, in duplicate. https://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5330-20.pdf
5>Obtain two, passport size/quality photos of yourself and permanently affix them (glue stick or rubber cement) to each copy of the Form 1.
6>Obtain two FBI finger print cards (they may be ordered here free of charge: https://www.atf.gov/content/distribution-center-order-form in fact you may order every form required there, free of charge in a "Form One Packet" if you desire) or determine that the place doing your fingerprint uses the correct card, which is FBI FD-258LE.  I would suggest paying the $5 or whatever your local PD charges to do fingerprints for you, rather than attempting to do it yourself.  You will screw it up.  It will cause you further delay.  
7>While you're at the PD or SO getting fingerprints, drop off your two Form 1 copies for the CLEO to sign off on.  From here the procedure will be entirely dictated by the CLEO in question.  Mine knows me, I can drop off forms in an envelope and pick them up the next day.  You may have to speak with him, make an appointment, etc.  Entirely up to that individual CLEO.  I suggest taking the forms to the front desk, nicely explain that you require the CLEO's signature and leave a phone number you can be reached at.  I also recommend filling out the printed information on the form dictating the CLEO's name, the LE address, etc, and putting a "sign here" sticky on each form for him/her.
8>Signature obtained, you are ready to submit your forms.  In a full sized business mailer, include (2) Form 1, (2) 5330.20, (2) FBI FD-258LE, and (1) form of payment, personal check or money order, for $200, written out to Bureau of ATF, and address it to:  NFA Branch, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, 244 Needy Road, Martinsburg, WV 25405.
9>Wait.  And wait.  Then wait some more.  Maybe see if your check was cashed, but it really doesn't mean shit.  You're looking at about 6 months total right now.  You may, I never have, but other people do, call and ask the status of your Form, but that's up to you.  If there's a problem, they will mail it back to you. (On my first Form 1 SBR, I put a barrel range of length in, which they do not want.  They mailed it back.  I whited it out, changed it in pen, sent it back in and was approved a week later.)

Now, since you're doing an SBR, and a Form 1 is more likely than Form 4, if you were to do a trust and use E Form, here is the procedure:
1>Obtain your trust, by whatever means you happen to decide is right for you.  Funding the trust isn't a bad idea, you can put $1 in the Schedule A.  
2>Obtain the lower you wish to use, figure out caliber, barrel length, OAL, etc.
3>Fill out, submit, and pay for a Form 1 via E Forms following the excellent instructions provided here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_17/415446_Visual_guide__How_to_fill_out_a_Form_1_using_EFORMS.html which includes uploading a PDF copy of your trust.
4>Wait 30-40 days.  You will receive your approved form via Email as a PDF.


After Step 9, or Step 4 of the respective methods, you will then:
A>Have your lower engraved with your name, city, and state as you are now the "maker" of a Title 2 firearm.  There are a number of services that can/will do this for you in a number of different locations.  You can do it yourself with a Dremel if you really want to as long as it's legible and meets depth requirements.  That's not a joke, some people have done simply excellent Dremel engraving jobs by using a label maker to make templates for their engraving.
B>Assemble your SBR.  From here out, yes, you may swap uppers as you please.  If you wish to take the rifle out of state, you need to submit an ATF Form 5320.20 (you do not need to do this with suppressors.)  If you change the barrel length permanently and no longer have control over the parts to assemble the length described on your form, you are supposed to notify the ATF.  But you are free to change them as you please regardless of what was put on the form.

For what it's worth, I will never do another individual transfer, unless I decide to purchase a machine gun, and then that's due to WI law as T-800 mentioned.  I probably will not unless that gets changed.  I obtained 3 NFA items over 6 years time before my trust, since first becoming interested.  I've submitted 3 forms in the last 3 months since getting the trust.  It's just far less work once the trust is there.

On the pistol/Sig brace thing, my first SBR started life as an AR pistol, before the brace was available.  All building the pistol did was make me impatient to get it registered as an SBR.  It's good advice to try before you buy, so to speak.  With a trust and E Forms, it's literally no inconvenience to register another SBR, so I'll never own a SIG brace, but for the first time it's not a bad idea.  The argument of whether or not to SBR all together, holds no water with me.  I don't have any repeated need to take SBRs over state lines, so that's not an issue.  I think "pistols" like AR or AK pistols, are next to worthless for practical purposes, so the idea of keeping it as a "pistol" so one can carry it is equally unattractive to me.  (Now, if we can get loaded long guns approved in vehicles...)

SBRs and "Pistols" are just range toys, as far as I'm concerned.  The laws regulating control and possession of NFA items make leaving a suppressed SBR at the ready for HD less than ideal.  Short barrels reduce effectiveness of the rounds, period, regardless of caliber.  For any practical purpose, it's more practical to use a regular carbine or handgun.  But that's just MHO and worth what you paid for it.

^^^ All of that ..........

Or you could just buy this, and be done, with no problems and complications whatsoever.

Because it looks silly, you're limited to only that option, it doesn't belong on an AK, and, here's the biggest reason: because the ATF might change their mind about it's determination at any time.  Or they might not.  To me, that's more "complication" than a simple form.  As a trial, great product.  Definitely.  As a long term solution to "I want an SBR?"  No thanks.

A little off topic but do you run a Kuraki Kuraki?

I recently built an AR Pistol in 300 black out.  I did a ton of looking into 'do I want a pistol or an SBR?' and I finally went the pistol route.  3 main things the ATF has openly stated:

1: Adding a Sig Brace (or in my case a CAA side saddle kit) does not change the classification, it's still a pistol.

2: Adding a Mag well grip does not change the classification, it's still a pistol.

3: Shouldering a pistol does not change the classification, it's still a pistol.

You can look around online and find these ATF letters.  I printed them off and keep them in my AR pistol bag.  Now I completely understand going the SBR route, I really do.  But there are a lot less hassles (as stated earlier in the thread), and less money going pistol to see if you actually WANT one.  I built it on Black Friday this year, finally got to McMiller's to shoot it today, love it.  Going the trust route maybe to build an SBR but definitely to get a can.  Once again, this is just my opinion and what I know.  Take it for what it's worth.

Also, I understand the ATF can change their minds at the drop of a hat, but hasn't some elected official mentioned having CLEO sign offs on trusts now too?  I know that's not in effect and may never be, but the point is still there, a trust can be screwed with as well.

Once upon a time.  Cut my teeth on one.

There are rule changes proposed that would require CLEO signoffs for trusts as well.  The procedure for that type of rule change has been delayed repeatedly and is currently delayed until Spring 2015.  I don't think it will happen, but it could.  It will make trusts less convenient, but if E Forms are still possible, I'll continue to use my trust.

I'm not arguing with you, I actually agree.  I'm just pointing out that the argument of the ATF changing it's mind at the drop of a hat are completely legit, but it can be applied to way more than a SIGBrace/pistol.  I, personally, am going with what they've said today, and not planning on what they MIGHT do tomorrow.  They change their minds and oh well, I change the configuration.  No big loss on my end.

It is not the same.  There is a documented procedure to change codified rules like the sign off.  Hence the public commentary and continued delays.  There is no procedure for a technical determination like the brace.  The tech branch can reverse, alter, or change it's determinations at will, and have in the past.  This is why none of the determination letters people like to carry around mean anything, unless they were written to them specifically.

Slightly off topic: Does a trust need to be registered somewhere? Once the paperwork is completed, do I need to file it with someone at the courthouse?

Not in WI.  For this reason I recommend having it notarized, even though there is no requirement to do so.  It can't hurt to have the confirmation of a 3rd party that the trust exists.

This kinda interests me. I've been thinking of taking my Olympic Arms .45ACP upper, getting it cut down to pistol length, building a virgin lower for it (or finishing my grease gun magazine lower), and adding a sig brace.

I'm kinda torn, it's a fun rifle, pretty accurate at 50 yards (haven't tried it at longer distances), but I don't think it's being made anymore.

Hate to bring up old stuff but here ya go, ATF just changed earlier statements.

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Firearms/FirearmsIndustry/open_letter_on_the_redesign_of_stabilizing_braces.pdf

VERY interesting to see how this will all end up.

The whole redesign aspect of the letter is interesting. What constitutes a redesign?

For example....

From the ATF's defitnition of a pistol: The term “Pistol” means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand

Does shooting a pistol with two hands reclassify it as a AOW? I INTEND on shooting my Glock with two hands. By ATFs interpretation of the word redesign I just created an unregistered AOW.

Seriously. This new letter is so stupid. Its totally unenforceable.

This is some BS! I wonder if sig has released anything pertaining to this? I bought one, to use to test the waters and was under the impression that the ATF could not tell me the right or wrong way to shoot my pistol. I do have a Form 1 pending, but I imagine the resale value, or the value of these in general will be nil.

Using 2 hands to fire a pistol, designed so as to be able to be fired by just one hand as a Glock is, does not "redesign" the firearm itself. The problem with the Sig brace in ATF's eyes, is that it makes a pistol capable of being fired from the shoulder - which would make using it that way the same as having a SBR. A standard handgun, without any similar attachments as the Sig brace, has no capability to be shoulder fired, and being shoulder fired is what constitutes the definition of a rifle. The way you're interpreting it, if I fire a stock Ruger 10-22 with one hand, it is now is a handgun according to ATF, because I only use one hand to shoot it?

Thats just the thing though. The ATFs wording on the most recent letter basically states that how you use the item, or the intent to use the item in a particular way, determines the legal status of such a item and may constitute a "redesign".  You could argue that the intent to fire the 10/22 one handed constitutes a redesign, according to the most recent letter.

Should how an item is used determine the legal status of said item? In my opinion, if the letter stands it opens up a pandoras box for other interpretations, like the 10/22 example you listed.

This is entirely why I think the letter will not hold up in court. Impossible to inforce.

Just completed my trust with Craig today. Super fast and easy. Great guy, very knowledgable and helpful. Thanks for the heads up, now to file my eform 1 this weekend.

Having NFA items: This quote is a BIG +1!

V
OUT