Do you know when we switch to Summer Blend Gas? Have we switched already?

Think some here have. Prices are about a dime higher than last week.

Don't know when they switch.

As it pertains to gasoline. I had noticed that the price for E85 keeps creeping closer to regular unleaded as the months go by. When I got my truck a little more than a year ago, E85 was about a dollar cheaper than regular. Today it is only 30 cents cheaper. I have always hated ethanol fuel, but since I have a flex fuel truck and I get more HP and torque running ethanol I have tried it a couple times. Truck is noticeable peppier. But I still won't run  it for several reasons. First it is the principle of the matter. In the big picture it is not cheaper, and emissions are not better as it relates to total consumption. Also it has caused food costs to increase. But as long as the government  keeps subsidizing the production, farmers will keep making it possible to produce.

Mileage is really shitty. I mean bad. On summer blend regular my truck gets 18.5 MPG average. On ethanol it drops to 12.5-13.0 MPG. So I have to burn 30% more E85 to equal that of regular. It still costs less to run regular in the long run.

Same time as when you switch to summer air in your tires.

So you are saying it is a myth?

From my Bro.  I just asked him when it starts.

It starts in April and there is law that it must be in place by June.  So it really shows up in march / April down south.  

There Is a jump.   It costs a little more and they pass it on

I'm not saying it's a myth, no.  I guess I'm more of the opinion of who cares?  You put it in your car and you drive.  Why does it matter?

For my last two vehicles, I've noticed that winter blend causes between a 12-15% loss in MPG.

It's pretty much a myth.  The vapor pressure and octane ratings can change a bit, during production, but most of all its affected by how it's blended in the tanks prior to sale.

So the 2-3 MPG loss I see in winter is just due to outside temperature? Or?





Some of us must just not be as well off as you. To some of us it matters how much gas costs and what our mileage is.  If it does not matter to you, you are welcome to send us a weekly gas card to use free of charge.

My small engines run better on the summer blend. It has more power per gallon and is more stable at higher temps(science). It stores better(anecdotal).

I have a coupon for $1/gal off 20/gal at a Shell. The Shell Station in East Troy sells non-reformulated and I wanted to stock up for the summer but I don't want to stock up on winter blend.

Summer blend gas actually has a lower vapor pressure than winter gas.  It's a joke, and for all intents and purposes is no different than winter gas.

So this article that says:



is wrong?

Pretty much bs.  Stuff is added to gasoline prior to sale to effect both octane and vapor year round, but in reality in the refining process nothing is changed.  Feel free to stock up on summer blend gas.  I'm just telling it like it is.

Quoted:



So the 2-3 MPG loss I see in winter is just due to outside temperature? Or?





Some of us must just not be as well off as you. To some of us it matters how much gas costs and what our mileage is.  If it does not matter to you, you are welcome to send us a weekly gas card to use free of charge.

Or you can just get a job with a company car like me.  :)

In all seriousness though, the only two things I own that I pay for fuel in both require 91 and 93 octane, and both are summer-only propositions (a boat and a convertible).  Between the company paying for fuel, and my need for high octane stuff (and not much by way of comparison to a regular-driven car), I couldn't tell you what 87 octane costs.  Honestly.  I have no clue.

Even when I did pay for fuel though - does the whole summer/winter blend thing make a difference?  Regardless of blend, prices go up every year Memorial day, for the start of the summer vacation driving season.  Been that way forever.  It's a fact of life, and one I just dealt with.  To my recollection, fuel has never been so expensive that I couldn't get where I NEEDED to go.  Recreational, I may have combined trips for efficiency, but I don't recall saying "I can't afford the fuel to drive there" since I was in my late teens.

I am pretty sure everyone is running summer blend at this point.
The tank farms will run a "sale" on the winter blend around the end of March to get below the Fed standards.

Please tell me what your qualifications are that make you privy to this information. You seem to be so certain. Are you a Chemist working for the oil companies?

I work in an oil refinery. Running hydrobon and duf units. In short I make gasoline feedstock and diesel.  In the past I ran a platformer unit which makes gasoline.  I also work a benzene  unit from time to time, which removes benzene from gasoline prior to sale.

It's not a myth and there are differences.  The real problem comes from storing fuel and then using it in the opposite season, primarily in small engines.  If you have ever seen fuel "boil" in a chainsaw in hot weather or had an overly difficult time starting a small engine in winter for no obvious reason, that could be your problem.

I have read Plenty of white papers on this and other gas issues, including the ones my Bro wrote, whch came from his studies and he had 2-300k budget for that study alone.  He has a multi million dollar fuel farm and 3 or 4 dynos.  His focus is on gas engines running in harsh environments.

Best things you can do are never go below 89 octane and never use ethanol.  There is not much difference in impurities going from 89 to 91 or higher but huge jumps in crap in the gas when you drop down to 87.  If you store fuel for year round use, try to swap it out or keep a seperate stash for small engine use.

Gasoline that comes from the refinery is the same across the board? Correct? It's Blended prior to sale, you say.  Blended to effect octane and vapor, you say. The "blend" does not change from winter to summer? Once it's left the refinery, isn't it beyond your control?

Colder air is denser, requiring the engine to burn more fuel to keep the same A/F ratio, and it also takes longer for the engine to warm up while it's running a richer mixture. More power is required to push the car through the air too.

The biggest difference in winter/summer blends is the vapor pressure. There is less energy in the winter blend, but it's not really significant. If you really want good mileage, move above 5000 ft to the Great Basin in Utah or Nevada.

Look.  What I take issue with is that even in that article quoted earlier it somehow states that refineries have to "switch" from a winter to summer  blend.  There is no switch.  I can effect vp and octane by controlling temperature and controlling off gas. There isn't some magic formula or something special to be done.  It's done year round.

The article state that there is a 1.7% increase in energy.  Ok.  What is that really?  Is there a difference? Sure in the effect that vp is changed,  but all that is doing is helping with vapor lock in the summer and firing in the winter.  Would you jumping for joy to pay more to get ammo that was 1.7% faster?

Bottom line is gasoline comes out of the refining process year round at a pretty high octane.  When it hits the tanks it's blended down to make sales spec.  So they take a 98 octane gas and blend it down to 87, or 92 or whatever.

I don't need to argue about this. Choose to believe what you will.  Having run the units to make gas, I will just say there's nothing special about making summer gas.  And blending is done year round so there's nothing special there either.

Have fun guys

Edit to add.
I feel like I'm coming off as a dick here.  And that is not my intent.  I concede that the vapor pressure changes, but to suggest that this requires something special is not true.  One of the interesting things about refining is how each chemical is broken down out of the raw crude.  Blending for the most part is just putting some of those chemicals back in, or combining multiple runs of a product to get the desired result.  It is done with every product, every day.

What I take issue with is that many people think refineries somehow have to go through a major overhaul to make summer blend.  And that is pretty much bs.

I seriously wish you all the best.   Catch me at the next RN shoot and I'll talk to anyone who has questions about refining in general.

All I 'm gonna say, is that the price hiked gas i got last week gave me better mileage than I should have gotten based on how I drove.





Gator, does your refinery allow tours?

I had no idea there even were any refineries in WI. Not doubting a word you have said, I just had no idea refineries existed here. If one does, I'd assume it'd be somewhere where oil tankers could get to it by water. Like on Lake Superior?  (I know you're from the Superior area).  

The only question I'd have is this... If it is on the Great Lakes, how do you get the crude to refine when the lake freezes solid, like this past winter? Or do you have enough stored before winter hits in tank farms? Or do you get the crude in another form of transportaion?

The crude we get is canadian, and comes via pipeline.  It's a year round delivery system.  The refinery here is the only refinery located in Wisconsin.
It's a smaller refinery compared to many.  It's been in operation since 1952 if my memory serves me right.  

We make gas and diesel for local sale and to the railroad.  Make 6 oil for the lake ships, and asphalt.  We also ship lots of other stuff by rail.  Not responsible for propane prices though, as our propane isn't clean enough for residential use.  I believe it's shipped and used in the plastics industry.

If you ever come up this way I am sure I could get you in on a personal tour with a little bit of notice.  Would require a nds and waiver bs.  Not something normally open to the public unless your an engineering student. But I am sure it could be done.

The politicians that mandated this crap fuel should play switch with their thumbs.

Haven't noticed any difference, that's why I run diesels. Add a little diesel Kleen in the winter and keep on rollin.

I should've known there was a refinery somewhere in the NW corner of WI. The gas we get here in SE Vilas, Forest, Langlade, Lincoln,  & Oneida counties comes from distributors in Antigo, which likely gets it from the Green Bay area, or the eastern U.P. (Krist Oil, a big distributor in this area, is HQ'd in Iron River, MI). The gas sold in western Vilas, Iron, Price, Sawyer, Ashland counties, and west from there, is usually a slightly lower price, as it comes from closer distributors, to the west somewhere.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/gasolinefuels/volatility/standards.htm

The biggest factor in lower winter fuel economy is because all of those lubricants are so thick when you first start moving, not because of the small energy difference from summer to winter blend. And also because a lot of people have underinflated tires, because they don't adjust the pressure from summer to winter. Spin an axle on a car or truck at -30, and then on an 80 degree day. There is a lot more rolling resistance in the frigid weather. And by the time everything is warmed up and moving well, you are probably at your destination (unless you are on a long trip).

There are only two reasons for the switch: the EPA won't allow winter blend in the summer, to reduce the amount of VOCs that evaporate, and if they used the summer blend in winter, some engines would be more difficult to start...especially older vehicles or small engines with carbs.

Is your crude from the Alberta tar sands? Does that stuff require a lot more refining than crude from traditional drilling or from ND fracking?

We get a mix of crude, a lot from the tar sands, some of it from traditional wells in Canada and so forth, but it's not something I'm really privy to, as it is bought and sold by many different companies and its constantly changing based on what we have in the tanks, when we need it, and when its available.

 We switch runs from sweet crude to sour crude.  Depending on which crude we run we either make asphalt or 6 oil or at times roofing flux as a bottoms product.  Every crude is different so the elements that make up the crude have an effect on how much energy it takes to refine into different products.   Believe it or not, not many refineries are able to switch runs like we do, at least not as easily.  Most refineries stay on very long runs from one type of crude, where as we switch anywhere from 3 days to a week or so.  

 Take this with a grain of salt, but its a bit harder to refine tar sand crude as its pretty dirty, and you can certainly see a difference when your on a sweet run compared to that stuff.   I work in the Crude unit, but I am dealing with sidecut products like fuel oil and Napthas which I take and turn into Kerosene, Diesel, and Gasoline feed.   What run we're on really only affects me in the quality of my feed and sometimes it can pressure up my units as I'm tied into the header lines with the main crude towers.  The quality of what I'm feeding my units with can effect how much charge I can bring into the unit to still make spec, and how hot or low I have to keep the temperature on my reactors.  Everything is so tied together its hard to explain without drawing out a diagram, lol.  

I always find it funny how they keep saying they don't want to open up a pipeline from Canada down to Texas, because there are a shitload of pipelines already running all over the country and it's possible to basically do that with the existing lines.  We've got a map of all of them in our main conference room.  Just thought I'd throw that out there.

If you make gas or diesel from the tar sand crude, is the end product "dirtier" than it would be if you were using better crude like WTI, or are all those impurities removed?

Is that a dangerous place to work? It seems like you would be exposed to a lot of hazardous and/or carcinogenic stuff (like benzene), not to mention the risk of fire.

The end product is just as good on a sweet run vs a run of sour crude.  Everything is regulated so we have to make a certain spec of sulfur, vapor, chlorides, color etc.  Sometimes it's easier to get get to spec depending on the quality of what's coming from the tanks, but it all ends up pretty much the same.

It can be a dangerous place to work.  We have fires from time to time, though they are rare,  so it's imperative to know your job well, so you can make the right call.  We have our own fire trucks and different systems in place as well as an ERT team.  Every one at our refinery is considered a first responder, which is rare in for oil refineries.

The real danger as you probably guessed is from chemicals involved in the refining.  Byproducts and occurring chemicals like H2s and benzene can either kill you quick or cause chronic problems over time.  There are alarms in place to notify of a release of certain things.  We also have scba's and escape bottles in the units.  We also have gas monitors and personal monitors, and periodic outside testing to monitor how much we are exposed to.