Whronge butonn.

You mean like your nitpicking about a simple spelling error? Glass house. Turn what ever you want around bud.

GreenZ implied that someone is suggesting eradicating wolves, when he said,

Call it what you want chief. I have no love for wolves, and I dont give a rats ass if you like that or not. If I lived in a wolf zone and they wondered on my property I would probably put a bullet in it. If I am in the woods and I am confronted by wolves and they are being confrontational I will kill them if I am able. Wolves kill livestock and pets all the time in areas where they habitate. A land owner should not have their hands tied to protect what is theirs because of a predetor. This should extend to their property where ever it might be.

A little sarcasm is being a dick? Well then anyone who  knows me will tell you that I am the king of all dicks then.

Have a good day sir. I have work to do.

What is the pic of? Movie?/

It is Scotty (Simon Pegg) from the new Star Trek movie.

Damn I like Simon Pegg. Didn't look like him. Still wet from the flush in the cooling system..

Ummm...yeah. I'm glad you caught the sarcasm  - that was kinda the whole point.

As long as I'm picking nits - how does one manage to try to type "missed", hit the wrong key and come up with "mist"? "t" isn't really near "sed" and "sed" has two extra charactors.

...and if you don't give a rat's ass what I think, then why bother typing out a post explaining to me exactly why you don't give a rat's ass?

...and didn't you have work to do like ten posts ago?

Speaking of which - I've gotta get my ass out to the range and put up those swinger racks like I was supposed to do last night. Flame - when you see a long-haired guy wearing a fruity aloha shirt at the shoot next weekend, make sure to say "hi" - my actual name is Jer. You seem like a funny guy (at least from your posts here) and the world can sure use more people with a decent sense of humor.

I respect your opinions. I agree with some, I don't agree with others. Mainly, your comparing shooting deer, bear, birds, whatever, that cross private land, with the shooting of wolves. You cannot even remotely compare the net results of having deer/bear/birds (even songbirds that wake you up at daybreak ) with having wolves "in your backyard".  Deer/bear/birds don't hunt "meat"  (and only meat) in packs. Deer may eat your garden or ornamental shrubs, bear may bust up your bird-feeders,  and birds may crap on your newly waxed car in the driveway... none are an imminant deadly threat to your livestock, your pets, your hunting dogs, and perhaps even your children. That is a HUGE differance. A wolf pack is the most efficient and deadly predator in north America, except for possibly the cougar. Nothing else in WI comes close.

FWIW, I'm a deer hunter with 48 yrs experience (1964 to the present), and I don't give a rat's ass how many deer the wolves eat. Vehicles kill far more deer than wolves ever will, and I'm not advocating banning highways in deer habitat to save the deer so I have more to shoot at. Coyotes and bears kill plenty of fawns. Wolves too. So what. That's nature. But coyotes and black bears aren't the threat to livestock & pets that wolves are.

You may not believe this, but I actually like wolves... a lot. I used to read Jack London books like Call of the Wild and White Fang when I was a kid... over and over and over. Still have the books, 50 years later. It was those books that gave me a love for the outdoors and the northwoods (it's why I now live here... I'd be in a remote area  of Alaska if I wasn't married, this is far north as I could get her to go ). When I was a kid, I always wanted to be just like a wolf... a silent, efficient, deadly predator roaming through frozen snow covered woods.  I think they're beautiful animals, and I admire their societies, and their skill at doing what they do.  For years, I wanted to have a wolf as a pet. I slowly realized that was the worst, most degrading thing I could do to such a magnificient animal.

But they're so good at killing to live, they don't belong in areas that are "civilized".  They belong in the wilds of Canada, Alaska, remote areas of the Rockies perhaps... not WI. I know it may seem "cool" to have them roaming WI, but it's not. Not for us, not for them. Feeling about wolves like I do, it feels a little strange to sit here and type words against wolves in WI... but it's because of how I feel about them, I don't want them here... kinda like, it's degrading to them. To me, they're the ultimate symbol of the wild, and as cool as that may seem to have that symbol in my backyard, I realize that this is not the wild, and there's too big of a downside to have that novelty.

I'm done. No further posts, I talk too fricken much. I'm going to get some beer.

I appreciate that you said that.

Likewise, I  respect your opinion in response.  I simply figure that if you live in relative seclusion in the great northern part of the state (I love it and wish I could find work there) you learn to take the good with the bad. Yes, they are effective at hunting prey. That's why I like them.  Yet I have no qualms with tracking and killing problem animals.  It just seems that some posters would advocate limitless hunts in all areas regardless of actual population or proximity to humans.  

Group hug ?

This post has nothing to do with wolves... but it's a "related" issue, I guess. Not 30 minutes ago, I had to chase 3 bears (sow & 2 cubs) from my driveway so my wife could drive up it. I had just got done mowing the lawn, and came into the house for some iced tea and to cool off, and to check the latest Fleet Farm sale papers online. My wife was due home from work (she works 8-12, every 3rd Sat.). I see her Malibu driving up the hill, but she doesn't pull in the drive. I can't see the drive entrance due to trees. My cell phone rings, it's her.

There's 2 bear cubs in the apple tree along side our drive, and momma bear is across the drive, and when my wife tried to drive up the driveway, momma stepped into the driveway and wouldn't move. My wife knows you don't get between a sow and her cubs, and was afraid momma may do something to scratch the paint on her new Malibu, so she backed out into the road, ready to "flee" if momma charges her car. "What do I do?" I told her to sit tight, I'll shag 'em. I walked out the front door and down the drive, and yelled at the sow to "get off my driveway". The cubs jumped from the apple tree, ran toward mom, and all 3 ran into the woods.    Momma bear stopped once and looked back, to be sure I wasn't following, and then slowly walked away. The cubs were this year's off-spring... probably 30lbs each.  Momma was probably 250-275lb.

I know, I know... it's not true without some pictures. Sorry but I don't have a camera at the ready, 24/7.

If you guys do Facebook and help contribute to the movement, it would be appreciated! There's lots of stupid in Wisconsin, that's for sure!
https://www.facebook.com/WisconsinWolfHunting

Hey guys..............Remember, humans are trespassing on natures property.

Kill em all

Genesis 1:26-28
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

I believe in being good stewards of the earth that was given to us, sure.  Carried to the sickening tree-hugger, new-age, hippie extreme though is a bit much.  It's like saying crops aren't in balance with mother nature, and we should just let the fields grow wild.  Well what will you eat then?  How about houses, cities?  Should we all live in the woods in a lean-to?  You darn right it's our business to control the wolf population as we see fit, even if it's just because we'd like to have a bigger deer population.  
Plus, you can mix any meat with pork and it still makes decent sausage.

No reason to bring religion into this, that a whole other argument.

Oh. Well. I guess that settles it...

...wow.

Really? People have a problem with the mention of God and the Bible? Give me a brake.

Nope not a problem really but when religious beliefs are brought up it turns into a whole different argument on what a guy believes.
And usually gets a thread shutdown right quick.

I could care less what a book printed by man says. I feel it has nothing to do with the control of the wolves, there for has no place in this thread.

And that would be one mans opinion.

I don't have any problem with God or the Bible. I just think using either one to prove your side of any arguement is ridiculous.

Flame - would you need a brake if somebody had quoted some passage from the Qur'an or the Prose Edda?

I am sure you are trying to make a point here. Not sure what that is.

What I think is ridiculous is that every time someone brings God into a conversation everyone wants to jump on him or her for doing so. I also think it is ridiculous to think anyone was trying to prove their side by simply stating their view on the matter as it relates to their religious beliefs.

I don't care if you quote whatever religious script you want or believe in. What I have a problem with the constant persecution of Christianity. It's ok to bash the Christians, but God forbid someone doesn't like another religion and says so and the world is in an uproar. Tolerance in this world is one sided as it relates to religion.

If you want to quote Mickey fucking mouse, have at it.

I will not drag this any further off topic. Enjoy having the last word on the issue.

And what I think is ridiculous is how Christians always turn things around to make people feel sorry for them. This thread is not about religion or Christianity, so why bring it up? people do that so they can try to argue their point and it never turns out good. Keep religion out of these conversations and let people argue about the topics. Christians are radicals just like any other religion and it should be kept to themselves. I personally don't want to hear it, just like you don't want to hear others talk about any other religion or non religion in my case.
I dont care what you believe..... that's your beliefs they don't bother me any, until you start preaching to me. then yes I get annoyed. And that is the problem with Christians, they cannot talk about anything with out bringing up their god or bible. I can talk to you all day and not bring up the fact that I am not religious.,

For the most part hunters have been against the wolfs for years yet they are the ones paying when dogs get killed by them through liscense fees.  Why don't they go take a collection in Milwuakee and Madison from all those people who want the wolfs (yet irronically they don't want them in their area)?  There is a reason that humans killed wolfs off decades ago, what next will the tree huggers want to bing back polio and small pox because they are natural things and should have theor place in nature?

Seriously, are you making a joke?  If so....      

If not, religion aside, animals have zero land ownership rights.   Only humans who have an extreme affinity for fantasy like to imagine that "nature" is a sentient being.    We are not discussing an endangered species.  We are discussing a predator which is encroaching on OUR property.

Sorry but the part in red is wrong. A thug pulls a knife on me or mine, said thug will get lit up and even here in Dane county I stand a good chance of beating the wrap if  not the ride. in other counties you might even beat the ride.

Point missed.

This.  WI Self Defense Statutes do not require that you be harmed before you use deadly force, only that death or severe bodily injury is imminent.  You do not have the authority to demand that someone with a knife walks away, but if you draw a weapon, tell them that you feel threatened and take steps away from them and they pursue you with their knife in hand in what you reasonably perceive to be a threatening manner,  it would be reasonable to stop the threat with deadly force.    
The requirement that a wolf be actively attacking your livestock has zero to do with the standard for self defense or the defense of another human.

Yes that was a joke, Except for the Kill them all.

...of course.

Speaking of the deer population - does anybody know what the population now is compared to... say... 1972? Or 1952?

Exactly.  My point was that the current laws about "legally" shooting a wolf compare to that knife-wielder situation. You can't shoot a wolf until after it actually attacks. If that same principle was used in other defensive situations, you couldn't shoot the knife wielder until after he stabs you, or someone else. No "preventative defensive" measures are allowed with wolves. "Threats" don't count. A wolf prowling around your livestock or pets is an imminant threat. They're not there to steal doggie bisquits from Fluffy.  

So it is wrong, I 'm glad you agree.

Currently at about 3.5 million, last time I saw anything published. Back in 1972, IIRC, it was about 400K-500K. I hunted near Mercer in 1972 (hunted there from 71-79, by my uncle's place). I shot a 10pt buck in 1976, and it gave me instant "celebrity status". It was the only buck I saw in the 1970s period, and I hunted all 9 days of gun season each year.

Back in 1952, IIRC from reading Deer & Deer Hunting magazine (I subscribed for 15+ years), it was about 50K.

I think the "peak" of the deer population came in the late 1990s- early 2000's. I'd shoot 2 or 3 deer every gun season, from about 97-04, and that was usually just on opening weekend. In both 98 & 99, I shot a doe with a DW .44, another doe with a Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt, and a buck with a .308 or .35 Rem.... all on opening weekend. It seemed like there was a deer behind every tree.

Then the coyote populations & wolf populations soared. I haven't even seen a buck since 2007 gun season, and I  hunt all 9 days of gun season. I quit bow hunting after the 2008 season, gave it up & do more duck/grouse hunting. Was getting hard at my age to draw that 70lb Mathews Z-Max anyway.  Never saw a single deer of either sex in bow seasons of 06, 07, 08... but I'd see a coyote or a bear, damn near every trip to the tree stand.

No CWD outbreaks up north, winters have been mild, except one. The only answer to the plummeting deer numbers (an answer I've seen myself) is predators. Coyotes mostly (they're fricking everywhere, I hear them howling almost every night), bears, and wolves. Which I guess is not totally a bad thing.... I'd rather a coyote kill a deer than my wife with her Chevy Malibu.

Wolves have been one of the main competitors for everything man needs to survive since we started walking on two legs (or, if you prefer, since God cast Adam and Eve out of Eden). Fear/hatred of wolves and other apex predators is hardwired into our psyches.

I'll have to pick up that book - sounds interesting. Thanks for the reccomendation.

Edit: only things I found under The Ecology of Fear were a book about how insane it was to build Los Angeles where it now stands and this article: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041208224943.htm
I'm assuming you're referring to the article?

So in your opinion, all strong healthy bucks (the best breeding stock) get killed off by man, weakening the herd's health. No argument that they're the "target" of a majority of deer hunters, but what I mostly see coming in to be registered (and I've volunteered at registration stations) are small immature spikes & forkhorns. The longer a buck survives, the larger and more stealthy it becomes. If the health of the herd was destroyed by "trophy" hunters, deer would be gone, or in rapid decline, by now. The reverse is true. A very small percentage of mature bucks get killed off before they've had the chance to breed. In fact, most begin breeding years before they become the targets of trophy hunters, so their genes are already in the gene pool. Saying hunting the mature bucks is detrimental to the herd's health is a crock. Anything those big bucks would contribute to the health of the herd has been done already by the time they die. It's the death of the small spike bucks that potentially are detrimental to the herd's health. Their genes die with them, before they can breed. If they were sired by a prime example of the species, that line may end if all it's progeny die when they're still young. Every Boone & Crockett "ole mossy-back", wallhanging, buck began life as a spike or nubbin' buck.

Our group won't shoot young bucks. Letting them grow to maturity does two things... it gives us a trophy, yes I'll admit that... but it also insures their genes don't die out. They'll breed lots of does before they're big enough for us to shoot, so they live on in their young. Kill the young, they don't get to pass it on.

And no argument  from me that predators target the weak. When the weak are wild animals, that's a good thing, because it's good for the herd to filter out the weakest, so the strong become stronger. But in the large scheme of things, all domesticated animals are amongst the "weak". I personally don't fear wolves for myself... wolf attacks on adult humans in the lower 48 are so rare that you could say they don't exist. But I do fear for my pets, and I do fear for my grandchildren... and if I were a farmer, I'd fear for my livestock.  

Used to hunt  coons there a few yrs ago (I just realized it was more like 25 yrs ago) when those packs were first getting established

Read a story a few months ago about a couple who were chased by a pack near there while riding their four wheelers...

Time to thin them out

I can pretty much guarantee the people I know in Forest county are not going to take this lying down....

This whole area was settled by those who left W Virgina and Kentucky somewhat before during and after the Civil War....

I helped to build the Forest County Veterans monument...

We'll be moving back up into the area hopefully in the next year or so...hope to get a wolf ticket by then...

So I think we all agree IF a wolf eats your face off, it was Gods will, get over it.

What I am curious about now is these Bear dog guys.  I have zero bear hunting experience, but can these guys really hunt wolves effectively with their dogs?  Is it just more the simple fact they are familiar with them from having multiple run ins with Wolves while hunting Bear?

Bear season is only about 6 weeks long. Having all those dogs is a big investment, not only in money, but in time. Most of the bear dog guys I know spend all winter, after gun deer seasons have closed, chasing coyotes with their dogs. They use small CC engine, lightweight, older snowmobiles to keep up with the dogs. Older Yamaha 250 or 300 Enticers bring a premium for these guys, and ice fishermen too. Easily portable in the back of a pick-up. I just sold an ET250 last week (for damn near what I paid for it new in 1979) and it weighed less than 300 lbs, but could easily go 50 MPH, and they run forever. I've gone on several of these hunts. It wouldn't take much to get the dogs to chase wolves instead of coyotes. In fact, the guy I went with, avoided certain areas because he knew there were wolves there, and his dogs would go after one.  

It weird how different parts of the state people do different things, Around here the bear hunters would never think about running coyotes with their bear dogs because if out bear hunting the dogs will get on a coyote scent trail and stop chasing the bear. Around here they never cross train their hounds, bear are for bear, coyote are for coyote and coon are for coon. The hunting with hounds is different anyway, the use of dogs for wolf hunting is to trail and locate not chase. Coon and bear dogs are trained to tree and coyote hounds are trained to chase and grab.

The way I understand it, they have differant "lead dogs" (they call them "strikers") who are trained for one or the other. The rest of the pack just follows the leader. Some of the strikers are trained strictly for bear, some for coyotes. The 2 guys I know the best each have between 15-20 dogs total. That's a lot of Alpo to buy.

Stan,
Never met ya, but...

Most people who train and run dogs understand canine behavior so they know.

If my Pointing Lab was eaten I would be out money and years of training her but more importantly she is family too.  Guys who run packs are in a different mentality.  They are way beyond running one or two bird dogs and each dog is just a part of something bigger.  Down South they will even paint numbers on their deer dogs to help keep track of them.  Every year my Bro's property in VA is a magnet for lost dogs in the swamp.  Number 22 is in the roses and 18 is behind the shed etc.....

To me if dogs used for wolf hunting are just to strike and locate.................................if you are not close behind, I would assume the Wolves will circle and locate that dog before you do.  Chasing behind a dog on a light weight snowmobile is better than on a foot behind a Coon dog in a swamp.  That makes a lot of sense.  My issue there would be, if the Wolves do turn and you are close behind then you are at ground zero when the Wolves turn on the lead dog.  So you are in snow, facing multiple Wolves who are kind of pissed at your dog.

My balls are not that big.  Maybe I read White Fang one too many times.

Well most guys that i have talked to said that if they were to run their hounds on wolves, They would do it similar to coyote. The dogs chase coyote until coyote tires. the dogs usually run the coyote back towards the hunters. If you are thinking the guys are going to run their dogs like hog hunters you are wrong. They will not have a strike dog because thats not how it would work. The wolf hunt with dogs is for tracking and chasing not grabbing. there is a huge difference.


Besides the Wolf hunt with dogs has been court ordered not to happen pending further investigation so I guess we dont have to worry about it for a while atleast.

You nailed it. To the average person, their dog is like family. To hound hunters, their dogs are just "tools", and that may be a concept that's hard to comprehend for most  That's not to say they mistreat them in any way (and they're not like Michael Vick who enjoys to see them fight), but the emotional bond between owner & dog is just not the same.

I don't mistreat my tools, they're expensive, so I take good care of them, and I don't want to break or lose them. But I keep them out in the garage, and I don't take them for walks or to play in the park, nor allow them to sleep in my bedroom or on my sofa.

I would never allow my dogs to be anywhere near a wolf, let alone pursue a pack of them. I'd never allow my dogs to actively pursue a bear or a coyote neither. I try to keep them from harm. When we bird hunt, I try to keep them as close as possible, and under my watchful eye, not just to keep shots at birds close in, but also to protect them from skunks, porcupines, and any other harmful creatures.... because to me they're family and hunting partners, not just a tool to do the job.



btw... I've read White Fang too... at least 20 times. I've had a copy of it since high school (in the '60s). It's near the top of my short list of favorite books.