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Posted: 9/12/2011 7:51:16 PM EST
Now I know how most of us think about this. I want to ask though in case someone already has a letter or something from the DNR about this.

It says 5 1/2" minimum barrel length.Measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed. A standard 1911 is 5", but what if a person uses a compensator that is also the barrel bushing. Now you just added better than an inch to the length. Is this legal? Of course I will contact the DNR, I just wanted to hear peoples thoughts about it.
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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 2:27:20 AM EST
I was always told as long at the comp was permanently attached you were good to go.. But hence IANAL

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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 3:28:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2011 4:18:10 AM EST by Interceptor_Knight]
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Now I know how most of us think about this. I want to ask though in case someone already has a letter or something from the DNR about this.

It says 5 1/2" minimum barrel length.Measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed. A standard 1911 is 5", but what if a person uses a compensator that is also the barrel bushing. Now you just added better than an inch to the length. Is this legal? Of course I will contact the DNR, I just wanted to hear peoples thoughts about it.


The DNR administrative enforcement policy does not require that the muzzle device is permanently attached. The Admin code is silent on temporary muzzle extensions so they count it for barrel length.
NR 10.09 Guns, ammunition and other devices. (1) PROHIBITED METHODS. No person shall:
(c) Guns and devices. 1. ‘Type.’ Hunt with any means other than the use of a gun designed to be fired from the shoulder utilizing the energy of gun powder or compressed air, bow and arrow or by falconry except:
(c)Deer or bear may be hunted with handguns loaded with centerfire cartridges of .22 caliber or larger and that have a minimum barrel length of 5 1/2  inches measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed.
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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 3:46:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Now I know how most of us think about this. I want to ask though in case someone already has a letter or something from the DNR about this.

It says 5 1/2" minimum barrel length.Measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed. A standard 1911 is 5", but what if a person uses a compensator that is also the barrel bushing. Now you just added better than an inch to the length. Is this legal? Of course I will contact the DNR, I just wanted to hear peoples thoughts about it.


The DNR administrative enforcement policy does not require that the muzzle device is permanently attached. The Admin code is silent on temporary muzzle extensions so they count it for barrel length.
NR 10.09 Guns, ammunition and other devices. (1) PROHIBITED METHODS. No person shall:
(c) Guns and devices. 1. ‘Type.’ Hunt with any means other than the use of a gun designed to be fired from the shoulder utilizing the energy of gun powder or compressed air, bow and arrow or by falconry except:
(c)Deer or bear may be hunted with handguns loaded with centerfire cartridges of .22 caliber or larger and that have a minimum barrel length of 5  inches measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed.


IK where did you find this? I got my info from the guidline book at http://dnr.wi.gov/

To be specific Regulation book bottom of page 18.

Handguns
• To be legal for deer hunting, handguns must use center-fire cartridges of .22 caliber
or larger and have a 5½" minimum barrel length measured from the firing pin to the
muzzle with the action closed.
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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 3:58:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2011 4:03:11 AM EST by NAM]
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
IK where did you find this? I got my info from the guidline book at http://dnr.wi.gov/


I know it's been repeated many times, but it's worth repeating again: The hunting guide book is exactly that, a rough guide of the laws. It is not 100% complete, nor is it 100% accurate. Hunting with an SBR/SBS, or suppressor is perfectly legal even though it states in the book thatrifles need a minimum of 16", shotguns 18". (not a jab at you flame...just an observation. Many think the guideline book is the letter of the law. It's not."

I opted to call it safe, and purchase a 5.625" threaded barrel.
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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 3:59:29 AM EST
I've wondered this for a while as well. I want to hunt with my 1911, because I've taken a few shots that were so close that I really felt like there was no sport in it with a 30-06. The 1911 is accurate enough that I'd trust it in those situations. Nothing to add, really, but I'll be interested to hear what the DNR says.

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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 4:02:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By MrNate:
I've wondered this for a while as well. I want to hunt with my 1911, because I've taken a few shots that were so close that I really felt like there was no sport in it with a 30-06. The 1911 is accurate enough that I'd trust it in those situations. Nothing to add, really, but I'll be interested to hear what the DNR says.


DNR can say whatever the heck they want, but if it does not agree with current statutes/admin code, it is meaningless. What matters is what is written in the law books.

I have not looked specifically in to this law, so I would defer to Interceptor Knight's cited admin code. Never hurts to ask the DNR, as there may be other code or law that is being overlooked.
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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 4:10:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
IK where did you find this?


DNR Administrative Code NR10

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/code/nr/nr010.pdf

Here is the rest of the DNR Admion Code index... http://legis.wisconsin.gov/rsb/code/nr/nr1.html

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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 4:13:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2011 4:14:07 AM EST by Flamethrower]
Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
IK where did you find this?


DNR Administrative Code NR10

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/code/nr/nr010.pdf

Here is the rest of the DNR Admion Code index... http://legis.wisconsin.gov/rsb/code/nr/nr1.html



I just found it before you posted this, there is a discrepancy from what you originally posted.

When you did a copy and paste it only copied 5 inces and not the 1/2 of an inch. May want to correct that.

Thank you for the info.
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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 4:16:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By NAM:
I know it's been repeated many times, but it's worth repeating again: The hunting guide book is exactly that, a rough guide of the laws. It is not 100% complete, nor is it 100% accurate......


Yup.... They even have a disclaimer on the front page......
This pamphlet gives you a summary of Wisconsin’s important deer hunting laws and how they affect you; it is not a complete set of all the hunting related laws.

In case anyone missed the earlier thread of mine, I actually got the DNR to admit an error in the printed guidelines pamphlet. During the 24 hours prior to the 9 day season you may target practice on your own land or the land of an immediate family member whether or not you live with them. The pamphlet states that you must live with them which is incorrect.
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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 4:19:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
I just found it before you posted this, there is a discrepancy from what you originally posted.

When you did a copy and paste it only copied 5 inces and not the 1/2 of an inch. May want to correct that. Thank you for the info.

Thanks, I didn't catch that. It is a peculiarity with copying from Acrobat and I should have caught it.

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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 4:29:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2011 4:30:06 AM EST by Flamethrower]
Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
I just found it before you posted this, there is a discrepancy from what you originally posted.

When you did a copy and paste it only copied 5 inces and not the 1/2 of an inch. May want to correct that. Thank you for the info.

Thanks, I didn't catch that. It is a peculiarity with copying from Acrobat and I should have caught it.



First call was to the central office in Madison. Talked with Lynn and asked about the compensator. I was told that she has had this question before, and that when she spoke with a warden, that he said in was not allowed because the the gun was not the original length as it was from the factory. I asked if this was his opinion or if she could please give me the code for the law it was stated in. She said "it is his opinion" I told her I need to talk with someone that new the law exatly and need hard information about this and she told me to call warden supervisor Jeremy Plautz. I called and left a message.

I will get back to you when I speak to him.

Nam, I know the publishe DNR book is a guidline book. That is why I need factual evidence. I seem to remember you or someone here had written a letter and gotten a response about using sbrs and supressors. Who did you or the other person write to get that letter?

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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 4:37:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2011 4:39:07 AM EST by NAM]
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
.

Nam, I know the publishe DNR book is a guidline book. That is why I need factual evidence. I seem to remember you or someone here had written a letter and gotten a response about using sbrs and supressors. Who did you or the other person write to get that letter?



Thomas Van Haren
Conservation Warden & Natural Resources Policy Officer
Bureau of Law Enforcement
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(*) phone: (608) 266-3244
(*) fax: (608) 266-3696
(*) e-mail: Thomas.VanHaren@wi.gov


Michelle Carlisle
Wildlife Rules and Regulations Assistant
Bureau of Wildlife Management
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(*) phone: 608-266-7359
(*) fax: 608-267-7857
(*) e-mail: michelle.carlisle@dnr.state.wi.us


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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 4:42:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
.

Nam, I know the publishe DNR book is a guidline book. That is why I need factual evidence. I seem to remember you or someone here had written a letter and gotten a response about using sbrs and supressors. Who did you or the other person write to get that letter?



Thomas Van Haren
Conservation Warden & Natural Resources Policy Officer
Bureau of Law Enforcement
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(*) phone: (608) 266-3244
(*) fax: (608) 266-3696
(*) e-mail: Thomas.VanHaren@wi.gov


Michelle Carlisle
Wildlife Rules and Regulations Assistant
Bureau of Wildlife Management
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(*) phone: 608-266-7359
(*) fax: 608-267-7857
(*) e-mail: michelle.carlisle@dnr.state.wi.us




Is the thomas guy just another warden? Or is he someone special?

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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 4:51:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2011 4:52:30 AM EST by NAM]
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:

Is the thomas guy just another warden? Or is he someone special?



No clue. Most of my emails were answered by Michelle. She would sometimes go on a tangent, but would give the exact answer eventually.

The only question that I directly asked Thomas was regarding hunting with machineguns. And he gave me the exact answer I needed:

(cited rule book that says MG's are illegal, and mentioned that 941 has exemptions)


"NAM, there is an additional law that says it is illegal to use any
fully automatic weapon for the purpose of hunting. Even if a person
meets the Chapter 941 exemption to be able to possess a fully automatic
firearm, they still may not use it for hunting in the State of
Wisconsin.

Wisconsin Administrative Code - Chapter 10
Section NR 10.09 Guns, ammunition and other devices.
(1) PROHIBITED METHODS. No person shall:
(d) Automatic firearms. Hunt with a fully automatic firearm.


Thomas Van Haren
Conservation Warden & Natural Resources Policy Officer
Bureau of Law Enforcement
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(*) phone: (608) 266-3244
(*) fax: (608) 266-3696
(*) e-mail: Thomas.VanHaren@wi.gov"

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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 6:15:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
.

Nam, I know the publishe DNR book is a guidline book. That is why I need factual evidence. I seem to remember you or someone here had written a letter and gotten a response about using sbrs and supressors. Who did you or the other person write to get that letter?



Thomas Van Haren
Conservation Warden & Natural Resources Policy Officer
Bureau of Law Enforcement
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(*) phone: (608) 266-3244
(*) fax: (608) 266-3696
(*) e-mail: Thomas.VanHaren@wi.gov


Michelle Carlisle
Wildlife Rules and Regulations Assistant
Bureau of Wildlife Management
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(*) phone: 608-266-7359
(*) fax: 608-267-7857
(*) e-mail: michelle.carlisle@dnr.state.wi.us




This number has been disconnected.
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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 6:22:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
This number has been disconnected.


Try Thomas. His number is newer. I talked with Michelle in 2006. I think the last email from Thomas was in 2008.
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Link Posted: 9/13/2011 6:29:18 PM EST
Ok I talked to Jeremy and he was intruiged by my question and said he would confer with others. I will be sending him pictures and such tomorrow morning. I will have a written response soon. I will provide the results when I have them.
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Link Posted: 9/16/2011 7:27:20 PM EST
In for the answers that should follow soon....
Using my 1911 would be a hella fun time hunting!

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Link Posted: 9/18/2011 6:25:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Now I know how most of us think about this. I want to ask though in case someone already has a letter or something from the DNR about this.

It says 5 1/2" minimum barrel length.Measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed. A standard 1911 is 5", but what if a person uses a compensator that is also the barrel bushing. Now you just added better than an inch to the length. Is this legal? Of course I will contact the DNR, I just wanted to hear peoples thoughts about it.


The DNR makes no fuckin sense. So you can hunt deer with a pistol that has a 5 1/2" barrel but I can't shoot with a Legal NFA M4 SBR that has a 14.5" barrel?
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Link Posted: 9/18/2011 6:42:12 PM EST
Thanks for doing the homework on this guys.

I have carried in the past my HK Tactical with a Vortex FH deer hunting, but I was flamed because the flash hider was not permanent. So I bought a Glock 20 with a 6" barrel just be on the safe side.

I have another question that I have never heard a straight answer.

Deer hunting with a revolver that has a barrel LESS THAN 51/2" , I have been told is OK because the DNR measures from the end of the muzzle to the firing pin, so the cylinder is counted as distance from the muzzle and the fire pin.

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Link Posted: 9/18/2011 6:45:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By Tazaroo:
The DNR makes no fuckin sense. So you can hunt deer with a pistol that has a 5 1/2" barrel but I can't shoot with a Legal NFA M4 SBR that has a 14.5" barrel?

Actually you MAY shoot a deer with a legal NFA SBR. You may hunt with a suppressed SBR. The only centerfire rifle you may not hunt with is a full auto. The little paper guidelines booklet is NOT the actual Statutes and Admin Code.

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Link Posted: 9/18/2011 6:47:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By UZI4you:
I have another question that I have never heard a straight answer.

Deer hunting with a revolver that has a barrel LESS THAN 51/2" , I have been told is OK because the DNR measures from the end of the muzzle to the firing pin, so the cylinder is counted as distance from the muzzle and the fire pin.


You answered your own question. The barrel length is measured from the muzzle to the firing pin so the cylinder length is included. A 4" .357 is normally legal because the measured "barrel" length is over 5.5".
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Link Posted: 9/18/2011 9:02:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Originally Posted By Tazaroo:
The DNR makes no fuckin sense. So you can hunt deer with a pistol that has a 5 1/2" barrel but I can't shoot with a Legal NFA M4 SBR that has a 14.5" barrel?

Actually you MAY shoot a deer with a legal NFA SBR. You may hunt with a suppressed SBR. The only centerfire rifle you may not hunt with is a full auto. The little paper guidelines booklet is NOT the actual Statutes and Admin Code.



OK...............I could have sworn that I read a minimum barrel length for rifles. Thanks.
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Link Posted: 9/18/2011 9:16:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By Tazaroo:
Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Originally Posted By Tazaroo:
The DNR makes no fuckin sense. So you can hunt deer with a pistol that has a 5 1/2" barrel but I can't shoot with a Legal NFA M4 SBR that has a 14.5" barrel?

Actually you MAY shoot a deer with a legal NFA SBR. You may hunt with a suppressed SBR. The only centerfire rifle you may not hunt with is a full auto. The little paper guidelines booklet is NOT the actual Statutes and Admin Code.



OK...............I could have sworn that I read a minimum barrel length for rifles. Thanks.

You did, in the little paper guidelines booklet. It refers to the general rule of 16" for a rifle but does not go into the fact that you may if it is NFA registered.
It is legal to hunt with a SBR simply because there is no WI Statute or Admin Code which states minimum barrel length for hunting. (Same for a suppressed firearm)


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Link Posted: 9/19/2011 3:48:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Now I know how most of us think about this. I want to ask though in case someone already has a letter or something from the DNR about this.

It says 5 1/2" minimum barrel length.Measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed. A standard 1911 is 5", but what if a person uses a compensator that is also the barrel bushing. Now you just added better than an inch to the length. Is this legal? Of course I will contact the DNR, I just wanted to hear peoples thoughts about it.


My guess, the comp would be fine if barrel mounted. Because it is slide mounted it is not legal.

It would be like using my SBR 9mm AR with 14" barrel for hunting. Although it has a short barrel, the rail system handguard (would meet the bushing theory) extends past the barrel's muzzle to accommodate a suppressor attached to the barrel underneath it. From end (muzzle end) of the handguard (acting as a shroud/bushing compensator) to firing pin is 20". Because it is not connected to the barrel, it is illegal to hunt with.

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Link Posted: 9/19/2011 4:58:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 5:00:33 AM EST by Interceptor_Knight]
Originally Posted By variable:
My guess, the comp would be fine if barrel mounted. Because it is slide mounted it is not legal.

It would be like using my SBR 9mm AR with 14" barrel for hunting. Although it has a short barrel, the rail system handguard (would meet the bushing theory) extends past the barrel's muzzle to accommodate a suppressor attached to the barrel underneath it. From end (muzzle end) of the handguard (acting as a shroud/bushing compensator) to firing pin is 20". Because it is not connected to the barrel, it is illegal to hunt with.


The muzzle is still the muzzle regardless of how the extension is "attached". The extension is there when the trigger is pulled and the bullet exits. The barrel is measured with the action closed. If you insert a rod into the muzzle end and a mark 5 1/2" down the rod is even with the end of the muzzle or deeper into the barrel, the "barrel" is of legal length.
Your SBR can be 10" (or shorter) and it is still legal for hunting. There is absolutely no WI State Statute and absolutely no WI State Administrative Code which dictates a minimum barrel length for a rifle.

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Link Posted: 9/19/2011 9:00:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 9:08:50 AM EST by variable]
Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Originally Posted By variable:
My guess, the comp would be fine if barrel mounted. Because it is slide mounted it is not legal.

It would be like using my SBR 9mm AR with 14" barrel for hunting. Although it has a short barrel, the rail system handguard (would meet the bushing theory) extends past the barrel's muzzle to accommodate a suppressor attached to the barrel underneath it. From end (muzzle end) of the handguard (acting as a shroud/bushing compensator) to firing pin is 20". Because it is not connected to the barrel, it is illegal to hunt with.


The muzzle is still the muzzle regardless of how the extension is "attached". The extension is there when the trigger is pulled and the bullet exits. The barrel is measured with the action closed. If you insert a rod into the muzzle end and a mark 5 1/2" down the rod is even with the end of the muzzle or deeper into the barrel, the "barrel" is of legal length.
Your SBR can be 10" (or shorter) and it is still legal for hunting. There is absolutely no WI State Statute and absolutely no WI State Administrative Code which dictates a minimum barrel length for a rifle.



Let me restate, sans hunting.

It would be like having a 16" 9mm AR and cutting it down to 14" and adding a 16" rail system handguard.
The rail system handguard (the extended bushing theory) extends past the barrel's muzzle by 2'.
From end (muzzle end) of the handguard (acting as a shroud/bushing compensator) to firing pin is 16".
Because it is not connected to the barrel, it is still a 14" barrel and therefore illegal without proper NFA documentation.

Just like permanently adding a flash hider onto an M4 14.5" barrel to make it NFA legal.
I.E. if it is not permanent, it is not part of the barrel.

Does this make better sense?

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Link Posted: 9/19/2011 9:52:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By variable:

Let me restate, sans hunting.


I think that is the point; Hunting.

NFA laws, and Wisconsin hunting laws are two different entities.

However, I think we are all on the same page here, for the most part. Muzzle device on a handgun, if attached directly to the barrel, versus a bushing comp of some sort which is not attached to the barrel. I say the former is legal, while the latter would not be. However, I will be 100% upfront in that it is pure conjecture on my part. I have yet to see anything in black and white from a WI governmental entity defining what would be considered "kosher", with regards to extending muzzle length to fulfill minimum barrel length requirements for HUNTING.



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Link Posted: 9/19/2011 10:20:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2011 10:21:09 AM EST by variable]
Ahhh, I see.

Just like the "no bottom age" in WI, but it is Federally illegal to drink under 21.

Sorry about the misunderstanding on my part.

Thanks for the clarification Nam.

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Link Posted: 9/23/2011 10:08:29 AM EST
I have gotten a response, but I am wating to post because I have chosen to kick the hornets nest so to speak.
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Link Posted: 9/23/2011 11:20:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By variable:
Let me restate, sans hunting.

It would be like having a 16" 9mm AR and cutting it down to 14" and adding a 16" rail system handguard.
The rail system handguard (the extended bushing theory) extends past the barrel's muzzle by 2'.
From end (muzzle end) of the handguard (acting as a shroud/bushing compensator) to firing pin is 16".
Because it is not connected to the barrel, it is still a 14" barrel and therefore illegal without proper NFA documentation.

This thread is discussing handguns. Rifles and NFA are a different animal than handguns and WI hunting. You can't use one as being relevant to another. We all agree that all 16" of the rifle (or 18" of a shotgun) barrel must be permanently attached to the barrel itself. This is cut and dry.
The WI Admin Code regarding handgun minimum barrel length for hunting states Muzzle to firing pin. A temporary muzzle device extends the distance of the muzzle end to the firing pin.

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Link Posted: 9/23/2011 11:23:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By variable:
Just like the "no bottom age" in WI, but it is Federally illegal to drink under 21.

It is NOT Federally illegal to consume alcohol under 21. There is no Federal drinking age. What the National Minimum Drinking Act did was hold Federal highway dollars hostage unless the States adopted a 21 minimum age.

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Link Posted: 9/30/2011 1:00:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2011 1:01:35 AM EST by variable]
Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Originally Posted By variable:
Just like the "no bottom age" in WI, but it is Federally illegal to drink under 21.

It is NOT Federally illegal to consume alcohol under 21. There is no Federal drinking age. What the National Minimum Drinking Act did was hold Federal highway dollars hostage unless the States adopted a 21 minimum age.



Got it, screwed up again. Changed: It is illegal to drink under the age of 21 except in WI. Thanks IK.

So, what was the barrel length answer?

Was the hornet's nest a DNR one?

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Link Posted: 9/30/2011 3:34:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2011 3:35:19 AM EST by NAM]
Originally Posted By variable:
Got it, screwed up again. Changed: It is illegal to drink under the age of 21 except in WI. Thanks IK.


Wi statute 125.02(8m) states  "Legal drinking age" means 21 years of age.

Of course, there are exceptions. But technically, it is illegal to drink if under 21, unless you meet an exception.

Those exceptions?

125.07(1)(a)1. 1. No person may procure for, sell, dispense or give away any alcohol beverages to any underage person not accompanied by his or her parent, guardian or spouse who has attained the legal drinking age.
125.07(1)(a)2. 2. No licensee or permittee may sell, vend, deal or traffic in alcohol beverages to or with any underage person not accompanied by his or her parent, guardian or spouse who has attained the legal drinking age.

I understand your point, but disagree with your comparison.
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Link Posted: 9/30/2011 9:15:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2011 9:19:20 AM EST by Flamethrower]
Originally Posted By variable:
Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Originally Posted By variable:
Just like the "no bottom age" in WI, but it is Federally illegal to drink under 21.

It is NOT Federally illegal to consume alcohol under 21. There is no Federal drinking age. What the National Minimum Drinking Act did was hold Federal highway dollars hostage unless the States adopted a 21 minimum age.



Got it, screwed up again. Changed: It is illegal to drink under the age of 21 except in WI. Thanks IK.

So, what was the barrel length answer?

Was the hornet's nest a DNR one?

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Still working on getting answers to questions I am continuing to ask.

Can someone point me to the code/law/etc that states we as citizens can legally poses and use rifles with barrels that are less than 16" BUT are brought to legal length with a perminently attached muzzle device. I am looking for that information where it says that for the state of Wisconsin. I know it says that for the federal law.
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Link Posted: 9/30/2011 10:16:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2011 10:19:49 AM EST by Interceptor_Knight]
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Can someone point me to the code/law/etc that states we as citizens can legally poses and use rifles with barrels that are less than 16" BUT are brought to legal length with a perminently attached muzzle device. I am looking for that information where it says that for the state of Wisconsin. I know it says that for the federal law.


Wisconsin defines barrel length from bolt face to muzzle, not original barrel length without a permanently attached muzzle device.
941.28 Possession of short−barreled shotgun or short−barreled rifle.
(1) In this section: (b) “Short−barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more
barrels having a length of less than 16 inches measured from
closed breech or bolt face to muzzle or a rifle having an overall
length of less than 26 inches.



Wisconsin has adopted Federal Code regarding NFA items. See the quote below. If it has a 16" barrel, it is legal in Wisconsin. There is nothing to consider (State or Federal) whether or not the barrel left the barrel manufacturer at or below 16". It is irrelevant so long as you comply with the AFT interpretation of "permanantly attached". So long as it has a 16" length (complies with ATF interpretation) the whole time you possess it you are good to go.

941.28 Possession of short−barreled shotgun or short−barreled rifle.
(4) This section does not apply to the sale, purchase, possession,
use or transportation of a short−barreled shotgun or short−
barreled rifle by.....any person who has
complied with the licensing and registration requirements under
26 USC 5801 to 5872.
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Link Posted: 10/13/2011 3:59:30 AM EST
Ok I p wanted to preface this with saying I am not the most elegant speaker. I do my best to ask questions in the best way I know how. Sometimes it works well sometimes it does not. I am sure there will be people who will disagree with something or everything about the emails I will post. If you have something to say, Ihen say it. I can take criticism reasonably well. If there are better questions I should be asking please let me know. If I screwed the pooch let me know as well. It should also be stated that I knew the answer to some of the questions I asked, I asked then to see what his response would be.

What you are about to read is a series of emails between myself and a warden supervisor. The content is a direct copy from the emails. I have left out email addresses and similar information. The content is unedited, other than my name. As evident by the last email, the warden has no problem with me posting these emails. There are 7 in total.

Email one:

To: Plautz, Jeremy J - DNR
Subject: Firearm barrel length restrictions, as per our phone conversation


Warden Supervisor Plautz,



As per our phone conversation on September 13th 2011, I am inquiring about the barrel length restrictions that have been placed on handguns for the gun deer hunting season in Wisconsin. As stated in the Hunting regulation guide book listed on the Wisconsin DNR website, Page 18 under firearm and bow restrictions category,

Handguns
• To be legal for deer hunting, handguns must use center-fire cartridges of .22 caliber
or larger and have a 5½" minimum barrel length measured from the firing pin to the
muzzle with the action closed.

As per our conversation I had asked if handguns such as a Government model 1911 handgun could be used if a recoil compensator, or slide extension could be use to increase the total length of the firearm from firing pin to muzzle, to meet the requirements for total length of 5-1/2” or more. I have included in this email a series of pictures explaining and detailing what I mean by recoil compensator and slide extension. As you will see in the pictures the recoil compensator/extension is a integral part of the firearm it is a replacement of the part of the firearm called the barrel bushing, and must be in place as it is the device that centers and aligns the barrel and retains the recoil spring in the firearm for proper function. Without it, the firearm cannot function properly. The recoil compensator itself is simple a device that vents hot combustion gasses in an upward direction to help counteract the effects of recoil. This helps keep muzzle rise down when a shot is fired.

As you can see in the detailed pictures the measurement from firing pin to muzzle on a standard configuration 1911 measures 5” with the action closed. With the compensator/slide extension, the total length from firing pin to muzzle is 6”.

Can this type of device be used to meet the legal requirements set forth by the Wisconsin DNR?

Attachments:

Picture 1: Demonstrates the side by side comparison of 2 1911 pistols. One in standard configuration, and one with a recoil compensator.
Picture 2: Shows the same guns with the actions open
Picture 3: Shows both firearms with the barrel bushings/compensators removed.
Picture 4: Shows the muzzle of the standard configuration 1911.
Picture 5: Show the muzzle of the compensated 1911.
Picture 6: Show 2 oak dowels inserted to the breech face of each handgun.
Picture 7: Shows the total length from breech face to muzzle of each measured handgun.


Thank you,
Flamethrower









His Reply:

Hi Flame, sorry for the delayed response. It took me a little time to get the answer that I was going to give confirmed.

Any item placed on the barrel is considered not part of the barrel. It would not suffice to place a compensator, suppressor, or other device on the barrel to extend the muzzle. The muzzle would still be considered the end of the barrel.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

P Jeremy J. Plautz
Conservation Warden Supervisor
South Central Region
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
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Link Posted: 10/13/2011 3:59:40 AM EST
Email 2:

To: Plautz, Jeremy J - DNR
Subject: Re: Firearm barrel length restrictions, as per our phone conversation


If a device is permanently attached to the barrel by federal law it legally extends the barrel length. Does the WI DNR follow this federal regulation?

Thank you,
Flamethrower


His reply:

Our interpretation of the statute is that it does not change the location of the muzzle for the purposes of measuring barrel length.

P Jeremy J. Plautz
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(() phone: (608) 275-3318

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Link Posted: 10/13/2011 3:59:53 AM EST
Email 3:

To: Plautz, Jeremy J - DNR
Subject: Re: Firearm barrel length restrictions, as per our phone conversation


That would be contrary to federal law. As found here http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf Chapter 2.1.1 paragraph 2:

“The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to
the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod
into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the
furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and
measured.”

It is my understanding that Federal law supersedes state law in this case and it is federal law that regulates firearms.

Also in regards to the response to my primary question. Do you have a regulation number that points to the answer provided or is this an opinion as t the interpretation to the law.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you,
Flamethrower


His reply:

Hi Flame, I forwarded this information to our Law and Policy officer and I am awaiting further information. I will let you know when I get a response.

P Jeremy J. Plautz
Conservation Warden Supervisor
South Central Region
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Link Posted: 10/13/2011 4:00:06 AM EST
Email 4:

To: Plautz, Jeremy J - DNR
Subject: Re: Firearm barrel length restrictions, as per our phone conversation


Thank you Jeremy. I look forward to hearing back from you.

Thank you,
Flamethrower

His reply:


Hi Flame,

Federal law does not always supersede state law unless specifically stated in the federal law. There are many matters in which state laws are more restrictive then federal laws.

For example, the definition of a firearm under federal law does not include antique weapons such as muzzleloaders. However, under Wisconsin law, a firearm definition is much broader and simply includes any weapon that acts by the discharge of gun powder. Therefore, when the term "firearm" is used in Wisconsin Statutes, it includes muzzle loading firearms. Therefore, in Wisconsin muzzleloaders must be unloaded and encased when transported in a vehicle in Wisconsin, may not be possessed by youth under age 18 unless being used in compliance with Wisconsin hunting laws or being used for target practice under the supervision of an adult, and may not be possessed by a felon or any other person who under Wisconsin law is prohibited from possessing a firearm.

Under Wisconsin hunting rules, for the purpose of determining if a certain handgun is legal for hunting certain species, Wisconsin determines how the barrel shall be measured for the purpose of this rule, not federal laws. In this case, the barrel is "measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed". Under Wisconsin law, we also include the cylinder of a revolver in the measurement, as the rules specifically says to the firing pin with the action closed. Manufactures do not count the cylinder when determining the length of a handgun barrel, but we do for the purposes of this rule.
NR 10.09(1)(c)1.c.
c. Deer or bear may be hunted with handguns loaded with centerfire cartridges of .22 caliber or larger and that have a minimum barrel length of 5 ½ inches measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed.
A person does need to know what we mean when we refer to the muzzle of the handgun when making this measurement. The word "muzzle' is not defined under Wisconsin Statute or code for the purpose of this rule. There are a variety of definitions or description of what the term ''muzzle" found in the dictionary, but all are not consistent regarding firearms. This issue was discussed many years ago with or legal council and it was our determination that for the purpose and intent of the DNR rule on handguns used for hunting, that a compensator or suppressor is not the barrel, but rather an add-on feature and therefore shall not be included when measuring the barrel to determine if it is legal for hunting. If it had been the departments intent to include any device attached to the muzzle end of the barrel as part of the barrel for the purpose of determining if it is legal for hunting, the department would have stated so in this section of the code. The intent of this rule was that the muzzle be the point where the projectile is last in contact with the barrel/firearm. This has been the departments interpretation and the answer we have provided to this question since this rule took effect. With the increased interest by persons wanting to attach devices to the barrel of handguns, and then wondering if it then becomes legal for hunting certain species, we will consider adding this clarification to the hunting regulations pamphlet and possible to the code as well. If a hunter would like to see the rule changed to include suppressors or compensators, they might consider submitting a rule change resolution at the next spring Conservation Congress meeting next April. Then the congress and public will have the chance to voice their opinions on changing the current rule.

Let me know if you have further questions.

P Jeremy J. Plautz
Conservation Warden Supervisor
South Central Region
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
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Link Posted: 10/13/2011 4:00:17 AM EST
Email 5:

To: Plautz, Jeremy J - DNR
Subject: Re: Firearm barrel length restrictions, as per our phone conversation


Jeremy,

Fair enough. I still have a few questions. Keep in mind I am not suggesting breaking the law, nor would I advocate doing so, I am just interested in how things are handled.

You had stated that due to increased interest the compensator issue might be introduced into the regulations pamphlet and possible the code. Correct me if I am wrong, but if it does not state the barrel length measurement interpretation as you have described it “The intent of this rule was that the muzzle be the point where the projectile is last in contact with the barrel/firearm.” in the code. Is it an enforceable law/regulation/code? After all Firing pin to muzzle as you have stated means different things to different people, and citizens were not privy to the conversation had by the legal council indicating the intent of the measurement requirement.

As a supervisor, how would one of your wardens handle such a situation if he/she were to encounter an individual who is hunting with handgun with a compensator, in which the barrel is 5” but the compensator makes it appear longer?

What is the DNR’s purpose of having a minimum barrel length requirement on handguns, and rifles or shotguns for that matter for hunting?

Where does a citizen such as myself get a hold of the rule change paperwork to fill out, to make such a change to allow compensators?


Thank you,
Flamethrower

His reply:


Hi Flame, No problems on additional questions/clarification. My initial reaction to your question when we first spoke on the phone was that the add on would not be included in the measurement for barrel length. I verified it with our legal staff so that I knew I was giving you an answer with 100% accuracy. I think almost all of the wardens would agree with the answer just "off the cuff" as well. Just to go one step further, because of our conversation on this, something is being developed to go out statewide to all wardens so that we have consistency in the field.

The intent of the law requiring minimum barrel length varies a bit by regulation, but overall it is to ensure that hunters are using a weapon that is effective for the species they are hunting. This is why we have minimum caliber restrictions for rifles, shotguns, and handguns as well. A longer barrel is typically associated with a larger caliber, and the longer barrel usually makes the the firearm more accurate both with better ballistics and ease of use for the shooter. (I would agree that both are not always the case as there are firearms available in many calibers and dimensions). Again, it may be time for a law change request to be introduced to change some of this. I don't believe that its been addressed for quite a while (except that the minimum caliber for handguns was changed about 10 years ago or so.)

I feel that the law is still enforceable. In most cases, hunters do not have any add ons on thier pistols when hunting deer or bear so it is a non issue. If a warden came across someone in the field who was hunting with one of these devices, it is difficult to say exactly what would happen. It would depend on the circumstances of the situation at hand as they are all treated as individual situations with variable circumstances. Things the warden might consider would be: What is the size of the barrel without the add on? Location or other safety considerations? What species is the hunter hunting? Did the hunter call and ask the DNR the question or consult the regulations? and possibly others. Taking into account these issues the decision would be made whether to issue a citation or a warning for using an illegal firearm.

The rule change process is through the conservation congress. I person would have to write a resolution at the annual meeting in their county each spring. There is no form for this process, however, there are guidelines which I have provided a link for below.

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/congress/documents/how%20to%20write%20a%20resolution.pdf
P Jeremy J. Plautz
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South Central Region
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
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Link Posted: 10/13/2011 4:00:28 AM EST
Email 6:


To: Plautz, Jeremy J - DNR
Subject: Re: Firearm barrel length restrictions, as per our phone conversation


Jeremy,

I have yet another question stemming from your response, as it relates to barrel length of rifles. In the regulation guide book under the section of Firearm and Bow restrictions:
It states;

“Rifles
• Must have an overall minimum length of 26" with a 16" minimum barrel length.”

According to federal cod a citizen may legally possess a rifle with a barrel length of 16” when measured from firing pin to muzzle with the action closed. This measurement includes a permanently attached flash hider, flash suppressor, muzzle brake or compensator. For example it is legal to possess a rifle with a factory barrel length of 14” as long as a permanently attached flash hider is sufficiently long enough to bring the total length to 16” or greater. That same is true for shotguns. It is my understanding that the Sate of Wisconsin recognizes this and follows this code.

Under the definitions and explanations you have given previously as it relates to handguns, this rifle would not be legal to use for hunting in the state of Wisconsin. Is this a correct statement? Or, can a rifle or (shotgun) in this configuration be used legally for hunting in the state of Wisconsin?

Again, thank you for your time. I look forward to hearing a response from you.



Thank you,
Flamethrower

His reply:


Hi Flame, the DNR does not have any specific regulations on hunting with short barrelled rifles or shotguns. What our regulations are stating is what is found in state law. This law is more commonly enforcement by the local police department or Sheriff's department. I would suggest that you contact your local Sheriff's department or district attorney for their interpretation of how the barrel length would be measured.

Here is the statutory language, and I would point out that it does not reference hunting, just simple possession:

941.28(2) No person may sell or offer to sell, transport, purchase, possess or go armed with a short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle.

941.28(1) (b) "Short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels having a length of less than 16 inches measured from closed breech or bolt face to muzzle or a rifle having an overall length of less than 26 inches.

(c) "Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels having a length of less than 18 inches measured from closed breech or bolt face to muzzle or a shotgun having an overall length of less than 26 inches

P Jeremy J. Plautz
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South Central Region
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(() phone: (608) 275-3318

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Link Posted: 10/13/2011 4:00:42 AM EST
Email 7:

To: Plautz, Jeremy J - DNR
Subject: Re: Firearm barrel length restrictions, as per our phone conversation


As a last question for the time being. Would you have any issue with me posting our conversation on a public forum? I won’t if you do.

Thank you,
Flamethrower

His reply:

No problem, I would like to get the information out there any way I can! Thanks.

P Jeremy J. Plautz
Conservation Warden Supervisor
South Central Region
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(() phone: (608) 275-3318
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Link Posted: 10/13/2011 4:10:43 AM EST
Interesting.... in a "We are the DNR, F- you" sort of way. I'm glad I opted to just purchase a 5.625" barrel.
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Link Posted: 10/13/2011 4:27:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By NAM:
Interesting.... in a "We are the DNR, F- you" sort of way. I'm glad I opted to just purchase a 5.625" barrel.


I got a similar feeling.
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Link Posted: 10/13/2011 4:37:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Originally Posted By NAM:
Interesting.... in a "We are the DNR, F- you" sort of way. I'm glad I opted to just purchase a 5.625" barrel.


I got a similar feeling.


I love it how in Wisconsin, there is a specific statute, that states the law. Then there is the "interpretation" of the law (DNR barrel length, AG's "4 hour training" bs).
Isaiah 16:11 "Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp"
tbk1: "We don't allow generalized bashing, except against the French."
CoC #11: Some animals are more equal than others.
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