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Flamethrower
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Posted: 9/13/2011 12:51:16 AM
Now I know how most of us think about this. I want to ask though in case someone already has a letter or something from the DNR about this.

It says 5 1/2" minimum barrel length.Measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed. A standard 1911 is 5", but what if a person uses a compensator that is also the barrel bushing. Now you just added better than an inch to the length. Is this legal? Of course I will contact the DNR, I just wanted to hear peoples thoughts about it.
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Posted: 9/13/2011 7:27:20 AM
I was always told as long at the comp was permanently attached you were good to go.. But hence IANAL
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Posted: 9/13/2011 8:28:44 AM
[Last Edit: 9/13/2011 9:18:10 AM by Interceptor_Knight]
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Now I know how most of us think about this. I want to ask though in case someone already has a letter or something from the DNR about this.

It says 5 1/2" minimum barrel length.Measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed. A standard 1911 is 5", but what if a person uses a compensator that is also the barrel bushing. Now you just added better than an inch to the length. Is this legal? Of course I will contact the DNR, I just wanted to hear peoples thoughts about it.


The DNR administrative enforcement policy does not require that the muzzle device is permanently attached. The Admin code is silent on temporary muzzle extensions so they count it for barrel length.
NR 10.09 Guns, ammunition and other devices. (1) PROHIBITED METHODS. No person shall:
(c) Guns and devices. 1. ‘Type.’ Hunt with any means other than the use of a gun designed to be fired from the shoulder utilizing the energy of gun powder or compressed air, bow and arrow or by falconry except:
(c)Deer or bear may be hunted with handguns loaded with centerfire cartridges of .22 caliber or larger and that have a minimum barrel length of 5 1/2  inches measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed.
Today we need a nation of Riflemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom
Flamethrower
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Posted: 9/13/2011 8:46:06 AM
Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Now I know how most of us think about this. I want to ask though in case someone already has a letter or something from the DNR about this.

It says 5 1/2" minimum barrel length.Measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed. A standard 1911 is 5", but what if a person uses a compensator that is also the barrel bushing. Now you just added better than an inch to the length. Is this legal? Of course I will contact the DNR, I just wanted to hear peoples thoughts about it.


The DNR administrative enforcement policy does not require that the muzzle device is permanently attached. The Admin code is silent on temporary muzzle extensions so they count it for barrel length.
NR 10.09 Guns, ammunition and other devices. (1) PROHIBITED METHODS. No person shall:
(c) Guns and devices. 1. ‘Type.’ Hunt with any means other than the use of a gun designed to be fired from the shoulder utilizing the energy of gun powder or compressed air, bow and arrow or by falconry except:
(c)Deer or bear may be hunted with handguns loaded with centerfire cartridges of .22 caliber or larger and that have a minimum barrel length of 5  inches measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed.


IK where did you find this? I got my info from the guidline book at http://dnr.wi.gov/

To be specific Regulation book bottom of page 18.

Handguns
• To be legal for deer hunting, handguns must use center-fire cartridges of .22 caliber
or larger and have a 5½" minimum barrel length measured from the firing pin to the
muzzle with the action closed.
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NAM
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Posted: 9/13/2011 8:58:44 AM
[Last Edit: 9/13/2011 9:03:11 AM by NAM]
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
IK where did you find this? I got my info from the guidline book at http://dnr.wi.gov/


I know it's been repeated many times, but it's worth repeating again: The hunting guide book is exactly that, a rough guide of the laws. It is not 100% complete, nor is it 100% accurate. Hunting with an SBR/SBS, or suppressor is perfectly legal even though it states in the book thatrifles need a minimum of 16", shotguns 18". (not a jab at you flame...just an observation. Many think the guideline book is the letter of the law. It's not."

I opted to call it safe, and purchase a 5.625" threaded barrel.
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Posted: 9/13/2011 8:59:29 AM
I've wondered this for a while as well. I want to hunt with my 1911, because I've taken a few shots that were so close that I really felt like there was no sport in it with a 30-06. The 1911 is accurate enough that I'd trust it in those situations. Nothing to add, really, but I'll be interested to hear what the DNR says.
NAM
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Posted: 9/13/2011 9:02:19 AM
Originally Posted By MrNate:
I've wondered this for a while as well. I want to hunt with my 1911, because I've taken a few shots that were so close that I really felt like there was no sport in it with a 30-06. The 1911 is accurate enough that I'd trust it in those situations. Nothing to add, really, but I'll be interested to hear what the DNR says.


DNR can say whatever the heck they want, but if it does not agree with current statutes/admin code, it is meaningless. What matters is what is written in the law books.

I have not looked specifically in to this law, so I would defer to Interceptor Knight's cited admin code. Never hurts to ask the DNR, as there may be other code or law that is being overlooked.
Isaiah 16:11 "Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp"
tbk1: "We don't allow generalized bashing, except against the French."
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Interceptor_Knight
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Posted: 9/13/2011 9:10:50 AM
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
IK where did you find this?


DNR Administrative Code NR10

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/code/nr/nr010.pdf

Here is the rest of the DNR Admion Code index... http://legis.wisconsin.gov/rsb/code/nr/nr1.html

Today we need a nation of Riflemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom
Flamethrower
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Posted: 9/13/2011 9:13:46 AM
[Last Edit: 9/13/2011 9:14:07 AM by Flamethrower]
Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
IK where did you find this?


DNR Administrative Code NR10

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/code/nr/nr010.pdf

Here is the rest of the DNR Admion Code index... http://legis.wisconsin.gov/rsb/code/nr/nr1.html



I just found it before you posted this, there is a discrepancy from what you originally posted.

When you did a copy and paste it only copied 5 inces and not the 1/2 of an inch. May want to correct that.

Thank you for the info.
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Interceptor_Knight
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Posted: 9/13/2011 9:16:47 AM
Originally Posted By NAM:
I know it's been repeated many times, but it's worth repeating again: The hunting guide book is exactly that, a rough guide of the laws. It is not 100% complete, nor is it 100% accurate......


Yup.... They even have a disclaimer on the front page......
This pamphlet gives you a summary of Wisconsin’s important deer hunting laws and how they affect you; it is not a complete set of all the hunting related laws.

In case anyone missed the earlier thread of mine, I actually got the DNR to admit an error in the printed guidelines pamphlet. During the 24 hours prior to the 9 day season you may target practice on your own land or the land of an immediate family member whether or not you live with them. The pamphlet states that you must live with them which is incorrect.
Today we need a nation of Riflemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom
Interceptor_Knight
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Posted: 9/13/2011 9:19:37 AM
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
I just found it before you posted this, there is a discrepancy from what you originally posted.

When you did a copy and paste it only copied 5 inces and not the 1/2 of an inch. May want to correct that. Thank you for the info.

Thanks, I didn't catch that. It is a peculiarity with copying from Acrobat and I should have caught it.

Today we need a nation of Riflemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom
Flamethrower
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Posted: 9/13/2011 9:29:25 AM
[Last Edit: 9/13/2011 9:30:06 AM by Flamethrower]
Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
I just found it before you posted this, there is a discrepancy from what you originally posted.

When you did a copy and paste it only copied 5 inces and not the 1/2 of an inch. May want to correct that. Thank you for the info.

Thanks, I didn't catch that. It is a peculiarity with copying from Acrobat and I should have caught it.



First call was to the central office in Madison. Talked with Lynn and asked about the compensator. I was told that she has had this question before, and that when she spoke with a warden, that he said in was not allowed because the the gun was not the original length as it was from the factory. I asked if this was his opinion or if she could please give me the code for the law it was stated in. She said "it is his opinion" I told her I need to talk with someone that new the law exatly and need hard information about this and she told me to call warden supervisor Jeremy Plautz. I called and left a message.

I will get back to you when I speak to him.

Nam, I know the publishe DNR book is a guidline book. That is why I need factual evidence. I seem to remember you or someone here had written a letter and gotten a response about using sbrs and supressors. Who did you or the other person write to get that letter?

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NAM
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Posted: 9/13/2011 9:37:20 AM
[Last Edit: 9/13/2011 9:39:07 AM by NAM]
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
.

Nam, I know the publishe DNR book is a guidline book. That is why I need factual evidence. I seem to remember you or someone here had written a letter and gotten a response about using sbrs and supressors. Who did you or the other person write to get that letter?



Thomas Van Haren
Conservation Warden & Natural Resources Policy Officer
Bureau of Law Enforcement
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(*) phone: (608) 266-3244
(*) fax: (608) 266-3696
(*) e-mail: Thomas.VanHaren@wi.gov


Michelle Carlisle
Wildlife Rules and Regulations Assistant
Bureau of Wildlife Management
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(*) phone: 608-266-7359
(*) fax: 608-267-7857
(*) e-mail: michelle.carlisle@dnr.state.wi.us


Isaiah 16:11 "Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp"
tbk1: "We don't allow generalized bashing, except against the French."
CoC #11: Some animals are more equal than others.
Flamethrower
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Posted: 9/13/2011 9:42:39 AM
Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
.

Nam, I know the publishe DNR book is a guidline book. That is why I need factual evidence. I seem to remember you or someone here had written a letter and gotten a response about using sbrs and supressors. Who did you or the other person write to get that letter?



Thomas Van Haren
Conservation Warden & Natural Resources Policy Officer
Bureau of Law Enforcement
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(*) phone: (608) 266-3244
(*) fax: (608) 266-3696
(*) e-mail: Thomas.VanHaren@wi.gov


Michelle Carlisle
Wildlife Rules and Regulations Assistant
Bureau of Wildlife Management
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(*) phone: 608-266-7359
(*) fax: 608-267-7857
(*) e-mail: michelle.carlisle@dnr.state.wi.us




Is the thomas guy just another warden? Or is he someone special?

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.

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NAM
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Posted: 9/13/2011 9:51:50 AM
[Last Edit: 9/13/2011 9:52:30 AM by NAM]
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:

Is the thomas guy just another warden? Or is he someone special?



No clue. Most of my emails were answered by Michelle. She would sometimes go on a tangent, but would give the exact answer eventually.

The only question that I directly asked Thomas was regarding hunting with machineguns. And he gave me the exact answer I needed:

(cited rule book that says MG's are illegal, and mentioned that 941 has exemptions)


"NAM, there is an additional law that says it is illegal to use any
fully automatic weapon for the purpose of hunting. Even if a person
meets the Chapter 941 exemption to be able to possess a fully automatic
firearm, they still may not use it for hunting in the State of
Wisconsin.

Wisconsin Administrative Code - Chapter 10
Section NR 10.09 Guns, ammunition and other devices.
(1) PROHIBITED METHODS. No person shall:
(d) Automatic firearms. Hunt with a fully automatic firearm.


Thomas Van Haren
Conservation Warden & Natural Resources Policy Officer
Bureau of Law Enforcement
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(*) phone: (608) 266-3244
(*) fax: (608) 266-3696
(*) e-mail: Thomas.VanHaren@wi.gov"

Isaiah 16:11 "Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp"
tbk1: "We don't allow generalized bashing, except against the French."
CoC #11: Some animals are more equal than others.
Flamethrower
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Posted: 9/13/2011 11:15:29 AM
Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
.

Nam, I know the publishe DNR book is a guidline book. That is why I need factual evidence. I seem to remember you or someone here had written a letter and gotten a response about using sbrs and supressors. Who did you or the other person write to get that letter?



Thomas Van Haren
Conservation Warden & Natural Resources Policy Officer
Bureau of Law Enforcement
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(*) phone: (608) 266-3244
(*) fax: (608) 266-3696
(*) e-mail: Thomas.VanHaren@wi.gov


Michelle Carlisle
Wildlife Rules and Regulations Assistant
Bureau of Wildlife Management
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
(*) phone: 608-266-7359
(*) fax: 608-267-7857
(*) e-mail: michelle.carlisle@dnr.state.wi.us




This number has been disconnected.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.

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NAM
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Posted: 9/13/2011 11:22:13 AM
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
This number has been disconnected.


Try Thomas. His number is newer. I talked with Michelle in 2006. I think the last email from Thomas was in 2008.
Isaiah 16:11 "Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp"
tbk1: "We don't allow generalized bashing, except against the French."
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Flamethrower
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Posted: 9/13/2011 11:29:18 PM
Ok I talked to Jeremy and he was intruiged by my question and said he would confer with others. I will be sending him pictures and such tomorrow morning. I will have a written response soon. I will provide the results when I have them.
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Posted: 9/17/2011 12:27:20 AM
In for the answers that should follow soon....
Using my 1911 would be a hella fun time hunting!
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Posted: 9/18/2011 11:25:14 PM
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Now I know how most of us think about this. I want to ask though in case someone already has a letter or something from the DNR about this.

It says 5 1/2" minimum barrel length.Measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed. A standard 1911 is 5", but what if a person uses a compensator that is also the barrel bushing. Now you just added better than an inch to the length. Is this legal? Of course I will contact the DNR, I just wanted to hear peoples thoughts about it.


The DNR makes no fuckin sense. So you can hunt deer with a pistol that has a 5 1/2" barrel but I can't shoot with a Legal NFA M4 SBR that has a 14.5" barrel?
"Never trust a man without a vice."
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Posted: 9/18/2011 11:42:12 PM
Thanks for doing the homework on this guys.

I have carried in the past my HK Tactical with a Vortex FH deer hunting, but I was flamed because the flash hider was not permanent. So I bought a Glock 20 with a 6" barrel just be on the safe side.

I have another question that I have never heard a straight answer.

Deer hunting with a revolver that has a barrel LESS THAN 51/2" , I have been told is OK because the DNR measures from the end of the muzzle to the firing pin, so the cylinder is counted as distance from the muzzle and the fire pin.
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Posted: 9/18/2011 11:45:06 PM
Originally Posted By Tazaroo:
The DNR makes no fuckin sense. So you can hunt deer with a pistol that has a 5 1/2" barrel but I can't shoot with a Legal NFA M4 SBR that has a 14.5" barrel?

Actually you MAY shoot a deer with a legal NFA SBR. You may hunt with a suppressed SBR. The only centerfire rifle you may not hunt with is a full auto. The little paper guidelines booklet is NOT the actual Statutes and Admin Code.

Today we need a nation of Riflemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom
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Posted: 9/18/2011 11:47:33 PM
Originally Posted By UZI4you:
I have another question that I have never heard a straight answer.

Deer hunting with a revolver that has a barrel LESS THAN 51/2" , I have been told is OK because the DNR measures from the end of the muzzle to the firing pin, so the cylinder is counted as distance from the muzzle and the fire pin.


You answered your own question. The barrel length is measured from the muzzle to the firing pin so the cylinder length is included. A 4" .357 is normally legal because the measured "barrel" length is over 5.5".
Today we need a nation of Riflemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom
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Posted: 9/19/2011 2:02:07 AM
Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Originally Posted By Tazaroo:
The DNR makes no fuckin sense. So you can hunt deer with a pistol that has a 5 1/2" barrel but I can't shoot with a Legal NFA M4 SBR that has a 14.5" barrel?

Actually you MAY shoot a deer with a legal NFA SBR. You may hunt with a suppressed SBR. The only centerfire rifle you may not hunt with is a full auto. The little paper guidelines booklet is NOT the actual Statutes and Admin Code.



OK...............I could have sworn that I read a minimum barrel length for rifles. Thanks.
"Never trust a man without a vice."
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Posted: 9/19/2011 2:16:30 AM
Originally Posted By Tazaroo:
Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Originally Posted By Tazaroo:
The DNR makes no fuckin sense. So you can hunt deer with a pistol that has a 5 1/2" barrel but I can't shoot with a Legal NFA M4 SBR that has a 14.5" barrel?

Actually you MAY shoot a deer with a legal NFA SBR. You may hunt with a suppressed SBR. The only centerfire rifle you may not hunt with is a full auto. The little paper guidelines booklet is NOT the actual Statutes and Admin Code.



OK...............I could have sworn that I read a minimum barrel length for rifles. Thanks.

You did, in the little paper guidelines booklet. It refers to the general rule of 16" for a rifle but does not go into the fact that you may if it is NFA registered.
It is legal to hunt with a SBR simply because there is no WI Statute or Admin Code which states minimum barrel length for hunting. (Same for a suppressed firearm)


Today we need a nation of Riflemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom
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Posted: 9/19/2011 8:48:55 AM
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Now I know how most of us think about this. I want to ask though in case someone already has a letter or something from the DNR about this.

It says 5 1/2" minimum barrel length.Measured from the muzzle to the firing pin with the action closed. A standard 1911 is 5", but what if a person uses a compensator that is also the barrel bushing. Now you just added better than an inch to the length. Is this legal? Of course I will contact the DNR, I just wanted to hear peoples thoughts about it.


My guess, the comp would be fine if barrel mounted. Because it is slide mounted it is not legal.

It would be like using my SBR 9mm AR with 14" barrel for hunting. Although it has a short barrel, the rail system handguard (would meet the bushing theory) extends past the barrel's muzzle to accommodate a suppressor attached to the barrel underneath it. From end (muzzle end) of the handguard (acting as a shroud/bushing compensator) to firing pin is 20". Because it is not connected to the barrel, it is illegal to hunt with.

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