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jacobsk
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Posted: 5/9/2009 10:54:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2009 2:11:49 PM EST by jacobsk]
channel 12 was there, the camera guy said it'll probably end up on the news at 5 or 6 tonight

I'm in a meeting right now, but I'll post up more info some pictures and a maybe a video (if it came out okay) when I get a chance this afternoon...

so this is just a heads up for those of you in the Milwaukee area to try to catch a glimpse of channel 12 and how they report on it...


Edit to add:

I cant leave ya hanging...

cliff notes:


  • the MPD secured his firearm, removed it from his hip after he did not consent.


  • the MPD was very polite, respectful, and all around chatty about the topic.


  • They checked with their supervisor and returned his firearm to him, he was free to go.


  • The MPD had a map of the area showing where all the school zones are, I asked to take a look at it and the officer politly declined, folding it up and put it in his pocket.


  • There were a few police officers waiting outside the mall entrance, so fearing that once we stepped off private (mall) property he'd be within 1000 feet of a school, I went and got his vehicle (up the street), drove it to the entrance, brought his pistol case into the mall, and we left with it encased directly to the vehicle.




















ETA: short video clip I took while Riley was talking to the Channel 12 guy, there is ALOT of background noise (sorry)

link to video on youtube if the embed doesnt work for you

ARF.com's ME student...
eddiein1984
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Posted: 5/9/2009 11:13:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/9/2009 1:31:15 PM EST by eddiein1984]
IBTGAMDIGF:

(In before the Grand Avenue Mall declares itself gun-free).

Edit: when you removed the pistol from the holster to place it in the case, weren't you "brandishing" it? Also, they should have arrested your friend for carrying a concealed weapon when he/you put it in the pistol case.
RH4540
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Posted: 5/9/2009 1:10:36 PM EST
I thought the chief told his officers that they were supposed to "take down" anybody they saw OCing?

Maybe the officers have more sense than the chief?
rogueI
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Posted: 5/9/2009 1:42:06 PM EST
good for you guys. did your friend unload the firearm in the mall before putting it in a case? You should be able to get that map from the city some how. There has to be an arfcom member who knows a MPD officer that could send it to me anonymously.

Brian
DLoken
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Posted: 5/9/2009 2:02:19 PM EST
HAH, was on just now.
[NO TEXT]
rogueI
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Posted: 5/9/2009 2:04:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
IBTGAMDIGF:

(In before the Grand Avenue Mall declares itself gun-free).

Edit: when you removed the pistol from the holster to place it in the case, weren't you "brandishing" it? Also, they should have arrested your friend for carrying a concealed weapon when he/you put it in the pistol case.



Too late The Grand Av was already gun free. Thats why they called the police.

eddiein1984
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Posted: 5/9/2009 2:09:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By rogueI:
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
IBTGAMDIGF:

(In before the Grand Avenue Mall declares itself gun-free).

Edit: when you removed the pistol from the holster to place it in the case, weren't you "brandishing" it? Also, they should have arrested your friend for carrying a concealed weapon when he/you put it in the pistol case.



Too late The Grand Av was already gun free. Thats why they called the police.



So why didn't the MPD just arrest him? He was trespassing while in possession of a firearm.
rogueI
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Posted: 5/9/2009 2:16:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/9/2009 2:16:41 PM EST by rogueI]
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
Originally Posted By rogueI:
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
IBTGAMDIGF:

(In before the Grand Avenue Mall declares itself gun-free).

Edit: when you removed the pistol from the holster to place it in the case, weren't you "brandishing" it? Also, they should have arrested your friend for carrying a concealed weapon when he/you put it in the pistol case.



Too late The Grand Av was already gun free. Thats why they called the police.





So why didn't the MPD just arrest him? He was trespassing while in possession of a firearm.


Call the mall to find out.

jakjak824
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Posted: 5/9/2009 4:12:26 PM EST
Nice
smacks1
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Posted: 5/9/2009 4:27:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
IBTGAMDIGF:

(In before the Grand Avenue Mall declares itself gun-free).

Edit: when you removed the pistol from the holster to place it in the case, weren't you "brandishing" it? Also, they should have arrested your friend for carrying a concealed weapon when he/you put it in the pistol case.



If the gun was unloaded it would not be considered to be concealed if placed into a proper gun case and enclosed correct?
FMD
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Posted: 5/9/2009 4:39:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By smacks1:
If the gun was unloaded it would not be considered to be concealed if placed into a proper gun case and enclosed correct?


Incorrect. According to the case law, a violation of 941.23 (the prohibition of CCW) is a "strict liability" offense, and needs three criteria to be satisfied simultaneously:

The weapon must be "hidden from ordinary observation".
The weapon must be "within reach".
The actor (person who has the weapon) must be aware of the weapon's presence.

The statute does not require intent, and it stands apart from the unsafe transport regs. IOW carrying an unloaded handgun in a case that isn't made of clear plastic is a technical violation of the CCW law.
The answer is: "Glock G19 with XS BigDots and a CompTac CTAC".

DavidK: You've never met FMD? He's 6'6, 240, and trains Navy Seals for a living.
eddiein1984
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Posted: 5/9/2009 4:47:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By FMD:
Originally Posted By smacks1:
If the gun was unloaded it would not be considered to be concealed if placed into a proper gun case and enclosed correct?


Incorrect. According to the case law, a violation of 941.23 (the prohibition of CCW) is a "strict liability" offense, and needs three criteria to be satisfied simultaneously:

The weapon must be "hidden from ordinary observation".
The weapon must be "within reach".
The actor (person who has the weapon) must be aware of the weapon's presence.

The statute does not require intent, and it stands apart from the unsafe transport regs. IOW carrying an unloaded handgun in a case that isn't made of clear plastic is a technical violation of the CCW law.


This is, of course, just an academic discussion. Apparently, nobody has ever been arrested for a CCW while carry an unloaded handgun in a case. I just bring it up because the Wisconsin statutes, strictly construed, allow for such a charge.

neoinarien
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Posted: 5/9/2009 4:47:56 PM EST
This thread is





Nice job!
NPH_1985
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Posted: 5/9/2009 6:41:17 PM EST
Any chance we can get to see the video of this? You know, for us country yokels that don't go to that thar big city.
If they took all the porn off the internet there would be only one website left and it would be called "Bring back the porn."
FMD
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Posted: 5/9/2009 7:06:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/9/2009 7:09:19 PM EST by FMD]
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
Originally Posted By FMD:
Originally Posted By smacks1:
If the gun was unloaded it would not be considered to be concealed if placed into a proper gun case and enclosed correct?


Incorrect. According to the case law, a violation of 941.23 (the prohibition of CCW) is a "strict liability" offense, and needs three criteria to be satisfied simultaneously:

The weapon must be "hidden from ordinary observation".
The weapon must be "within reach".
The actor (person who has the weapon) must be aware of the weapon's presence.

The statute does not require intent, and it stands apart from the unsafe transport regs. IOW carrying an unloaded handgun in a case that isn't made of clear plastic is a technical violation of the CCW law.


This is, of course, just an academic discussion.


Perhaps you missed the operative word in red?

Apparently, nobody has ever been arrested convicted for a CCW while carry an unloaded handgun in a case. I just bring it up because the Wisconsin statutes, strictly construed, allow for such a charge.


Fix in Blue. IIRC the details correctly...

Last year (?) in Green Bay a guy got himself arrested for CCW of an unloaded gun in a box in his backpack while walking down the street. The DA declined to prosecute.

There is no "stritcly construing" the statute. It is what it is, and is fleshed out by case law dating back decades. If an officer decides not to exercise discretion, he most certainly can arrest you for a 941.23 violation because you were in posession of a gun in a case while that case was within your reach. The DA also can prosecute you for the same.

Likely? No. Possible? Yes. Within the law for them to do so? Absolutely.

Intent to comply with one law doesn't exempt one from complying with others, no matter what the spirit of the legislation was when passed.

The answer is: "Glock G19 with XS BigDots and a CompTac CTAC".

DavidK: You've never met FMD? He's 6'6, 240, and trains Navy Seals for a living.
par0thead151
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Posted: 5/9/2009 8:40:35 PM EST
just saw the news stint on this..
time to start voting with my $ and not patronizing malls who post no carry signs.
RH4540
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Posted: 5/10/2009 3:08:26 AM EST
I taped the 5 O'clock news last night and didn't see it. I was planning to tape the 10 O'clock news, but forgot.

I just looked at the channel 12 website, but, I don't SEE anything listed.

Does anybody have a link??
eddiein1984
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Posted: 5/10/2009 3:48:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/10/2009 3:53:55 AM EST by eddiein1984]
Originally Posted By FMD:
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
Originally Posted By FMD:
Originally Posted By smacks1:
If the gun was unloaded it would not be considered to be concealed if placed into a proper gun case and enclosed correct?


Incorrect. According to the case law, a violation of 941.23 (the prohibition of CCW) is a "strict liability" offense, and needs three criteria to be satisfied simultaneously:

The weapon must be "hidden from ordinary observation".
The weapon must be "within reach".
The actor (person who has the weapon) must be aware of the weapon's presence.

The statute does not require intent, and it stands apart from the unsafe transport regs. IOW carrying an unloaded handgun in a case that isn't made of clear plastic is a technical violation of the CCW law.


This is, of course, just an academic discussion.


Perhaps you missed the operative word in red?

Apparently, nobody has ever been arrested convicted for a CCW while carry an unloaded handgun in a case. I just bring it up because the Wisconsin statutes, strictly construed, allow for such a charge.


Fix in Blue. IIRC the details correctly...

Last year (?) in Green Bay a guy got himself arrested for CCW of an unloaded gun in a box in his backpack while walking down the street. The DA declined to prosecute.

There is no "stritcly construing" the statute. It is what it is, and is fleshed out by case law dating back decades. If an officer decides not to exercise discretion, he most certainly can arrest you for a 941.23 violation because you were in posession of a gun in a case while that case was within your reach. The DA also can prosecute you for the same.

Likely? No. Possible? Yes. Within the law for them to do so? Absolutely.

Intent to comply with one law doesn't exempt one from complying with others, no matter what the spirit of the legislation was when passed.




Yeah, I get it. Carry an unloaded handgun under any circumstances other than dangling off your finger tips is a violation of the CCW statute. Of course, we all know that there are practical exceptions. For instance, why doesn't the MPD just arrest everyone at Mitchell Field checking a handgun in their luggage? Why don't they stand in the parking lot of shooting ranges and arrest everyone carrying a cased handgun in a duffel back? How would any handguns get anywhere in this state without violating the statute?
FMD
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Posted: 5/10/2009 5:56:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/10/2009 5:57:02 AM EST by FMD]
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
Yeah, I get it. Carry an unloaded handgun under any circumstances other than dangling off your finger tips is a violation of the CCW statute. Of course, we all know that there are practical exceptions. For instance, why doesn't the MPD just arrest everyone at Mitchell Field checking a handgun in their luggage? Why don't they stand in the parking lot of shooting ranges and arrest everyone carrying a cased handgun in a duffel back? How would any handguns get anywhere in this state without violating the statute?


Technically, they can not. If you haven't figured it out yet, that's my point, and it's the same point I make evry time these questions come up:

If you transport a gun in some way other than OC, it is (while it is within reach) a violation of 941.23

If you're already going to be in violation... draw your own conclusions.
The answer is: "Glock G19 with XS BigDots and a CompTac CTAC".

DavidK: You've never met FMD? He's 6'6, 240, and trains Navy Seals for a living.
eddiein1984
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Posted: 5/10/2009 7:26:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/10/2009 7:31:03 AM EST by eddiein1984]
Originally Posted By FMD:
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
Yeah, I get it. Carry an unloaded handgun under any circumstances other than dangling off your finger tips is a violation of the CCW statute. Of course, we all know that there are practical exceptions. For instance, why doesn't the MPD just arrest everyone at Mitchell Field checking a handgun in their luggage? Why don't they stand in the parking lot of shooting ranges and arrest everyone carrying a cased handgun in a duffel back? How would any handguns get anywhere in this state without violating the statute?


Technically, they can not. If you haven't figured it out yet, that's my point, and it's the same point I make evry time these questions come up:

If you transport a gun in some way other than OC, it is (while it is within reach) a violation of 941.23

If you're already going to be in violation... draw your own conclusions.


I'm not sure if you're trying to argue with me or agree with me. Your making exactly the same point as I am. What you highlighted in blue wasn't actually a question I had. These are just matters of police and prosecutorial discretion.
none
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Posted: 5/10/2009 10:14:36 AM EST
So the guy was open carrying on his right side while his right arm is tied up in a sling? How was he planning on defending himself if needed?
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GlockFace
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Posted: 5/10/2009 10:26:37 AM EST
I guess he wasn't planning on drawing but rather just exercising his right to OC! Good for him that he wasn't thrown to the ground and injured.
SoloTwo
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Posted: 5/10/2009 11:27:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By par0thead151:
just saw the news stint on this..
time to start voting with my $ and not patronizing malls who post no carry signs.


Who the hell goes to grand ave mall anywhoo.
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HKMP5A2
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Posted: 5/10/2009 12:51:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By none:
So the guy was open carrying on his right side while his right arm is tied up in a sling? How was he planning on defending himself if needed?


Not to mention weapon retention
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par0thead151
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Posted: 5/10/2009 2:17:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
Originally Posted By FMD:
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
Originally Posted By FMD:
Originally Posted By smacks1:
If the gun was unloaded it would not be considered to be concealed if placed into a proper gun case and enclosed correct?


Incorrect. According to the case law, a violation of 941.23 (the prohibition of CCW) is a "strict liability" offense, and needs three criteria to be satisfied simultaneously:

The weapon must be "hidden from ordinary observation".
The weapon must be "within reach".
The actor (person who has the weapon) must be aware of the weapon's presence.

The statute does not require intent, and it stands apart from the unsafe transport regs. IOW carrying an unloaded handgun in a case that isn't made of clear plastic is a technical violation of the CCW law.


This is, of course, just an academic discussion.


Perhaps you missed the operative word in red?

Apparently, nobody has ever been arrested convicted for a CCW while carry an unloaded handgun in a case. I just bring it up because the Wisconsin statutes, strictly construed, allow for such a charge.


Fix in Blue. IIRC the details correctly...

Last year (?) in Green Bay a guy got himself arrested for CCW of an unloaded gun in a box in his backpack while walking down the street. The DA declined to prosecute.

There is no "stritcly construing" the statute. It is what it is, and is fleshed out by case law dating back decades. If an officer decides not to exercise discretion, he most certainly can arrest you for a 941.23 violation because you were in posession of a gun in a case while that case was within your reach. The DA also can prosecute you for the same.

Likely? No. Possible? Yes. Within the law for them to do so? Absolutely.

Intent to comply with one law doesn't exempt one from complying with others, no matter what the spirit of the legislation was when passed.




Yeah, I get it. Carry an unloaded handgun under any circumstances other than dangling off your finger tips is a violation of the CCW statute. Of course, we all know that there are practical exceptions. For instance, why doesn't the MPD just arrest everyone at Mitchell Field checking a handgun in their luggage? Why don't they stand in the parking lot of shooting ranges and arrest everyone carrying a cased handgun in a duffel back? How would any handguns get anywhere in this state without violating the statute?


my range is private property. RCLC
this means conceal carry is legal? correct?
LEO have no jurisdiction on private property unless given such authority by the owner.
eddiein1984
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Posted: 5/10/2009 2:46:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By par0thead151:
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
Originally Posted By FMD:
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
Originally Posted By FMD:
Originally Posted By smacks1:
If the gun was unloaded it would not be considered to be concealed if placed into a proper gun case and enclosed correct?


Incorrect. According to the case law, a violation of 941.23 (the prohibition of CCW) is a "strict liability" offense, and needs three criteria to be satisfied simultaneously:

The weapon must be "hidden from ordinary observation".
The weapon must be "within reach".
The actor (person who has the weapon) must be aware of the weapon's presence.

The statute does not require intent, and it stands apart from the unsafe transport regs. IOW carrying an unloaded handgun in a case that isn't made of clear plastic is a technical violation of the CCW law.


This is, of course, just an academic discussion.


Perhaps you missed the operative word in red?

Apparently, nobody has ever been arrested convicted for a CCW while carry an unloaded handgun in a case. I just bring it up because the Wisconsin statutes, strictly construed, allow for such a charge.


Fix in Blue. IIRC the details correctly...

Last year (?) in Green Bay a guy got himself arrested for CCW of an unloaded gun in a box in his backpack while walking down the street. The DA declined to prosecute.

There is no "stritcly construing" the statute. It is what it is, and is fleshed out by case law dating back decades. If an officer decides not to exercise discretion, he most certainly can arrest you for a 941.23 violation because you were in posession of a gun in a case while that case was within your reach. The DA also can prosecute you for the same.

Likely? No. Possible? Yes. Within the law for them to do so? Absolutely.

Intent to comply with one law doesn't exempt one from complying with others, no matter what the spirit of the legislation was when passed.




Yeah, I get it. Carry an unloaded handgun under any circumstances other than dangling off your finger tips is a violation of the CCW statute. Of course, we all know that there are practical exceptions. For instance, why doesn't the MPD just arrest everyone at Mitchell Field checking a handgun in their luggage? Why don't they stand in the parking lot of shooting ranges and arrest everyone carrying a cased handgun in a duffel back? How would any handguns get anywhere in this state without violating the statute?


my range is private property. RCLC
this means conceal carry is legal? correct?
LEO have no jurisdiction on private property unless given such authority by the owner.


No, absolutely 100% incorrect. THE CCW STATUTE HAS NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

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