Hello NW ARF clan.

Wanted to put out an invite to any of you who might be interested in joining us for this event.

2017 NW MK12/SPR Clone Rifle Shoot

So far our tentative plan is to hold our gathering in the middle of April when the weather is still cool and comfortable. We are going to be shooting in Eastern WA from Friday thru Sunday. Your welcome to come one or all days.

We will be setting up all sorts of targets and objects to engage. Distances for engagement will range from 200 to 800 yards, possibly further if situations go according to plan. There will be steel gongs, melons, water jugs, zombie targets that bleed, and various other objects to hit. In true granola cruncher fashion, only things that are biodegradable and environmentally safe will be allowed. Pack it in, pack it out.

We are a dedicated bunch of cloners that have spent a lot of time and money replicating military issue firearms. And this is our chance to get together and show off our stuff to others that appreciate our hard work and the time (and $$) it takes to get the correct parts together in one place.

This shoot is open to individuals that own, or borrow lol, specific clone rifles. They include:

MK12 Mod 0


MK12 Mod 1


MK12 Mod H


We are not trying to discriminate against anyone, but there are requirements to what we will allow.
The rifles mentioned above are your golden ticket to RSVP a spot. If you'd like to bring other rifles on top of these, that's great. If you don't have one of the above, in working condition, please don't waste our time as this is not a bring anything type shoot. Families and significant others of participants are definitely invited and encouraged to come.

This is how it will all go down.

1. Please IM me saying you are interested in attending and provide email address for direct contact. Provide an up to date phone number for contact as well as a picture of YOUR MK12 in email reply.

2. The date for the event will be emailed to you after we verify you have met the requirements. At the time of acceptance, please indicate how many are in your party, what day or days you'll be attending, and if you are going to be staying overnight in a tent or vehicle. Unfortunately there is no access for anything larger than a vehicle (i.e. truck), and campers or trailers are not allowed in this area.

3. Location of the event will be kept anonymous until one week prior to the event. This is so we don't have to deal with people just showing up.

Friday am will be setup of targets.
Friday pm thru Sunday am is shooting time.
Sunday pm will be for cleanup and removal of targets.

I know there are some hoops that you must jump thru, but it'll be worth the effort.

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Thanks,
Jon

Count me in! Just sent you an email.

Also sent you an email!
Here's my rifle.

Reg,
Damn, didn't take you long to get that all rockin and painted up proper like. Looks amazing.

Got that mod 1 set up to perfection 2016!!

Count me in, although the weekend of 4/8, 4/9 I'm already shooting a match. Also for those that might be interested in pushing themselves Rock Lake Rifle range is hosting one of the PRS gas gun matches May 6/7.

Oh great, more hate for the guy with a DD Mk 12.

Discriminating turds!

Hey hate on DD for calling that turd a "MK12" when there is nothing MK12 about it... ;)

I wish I could make this but I'm in Hawaii most of April.  Great idea/event, next time for me!

I need to let the NFA know that I have an upcoming shoot in a few months and "please put a rush order on my MK12 suppressor." Maybe mail them a crisp $20 bill so they skip me ahead 5 months.

Anyone in the WA area load their own 77gr MK262 OTM? If so, I would be happy to supply brass/buy reloads of anyone that does.

FYI, Wade's in Bellevue has 77gr Sierra OTM from Black Hills, Magtech, and IMI (Israeli) all in stock if interested. It was all a little over a dollar a round which is normal anywhere on the web.

I am interested and will be sending an email off shortly. I do think though, making this a MK12 only shoot may be limiting for participants. Not sure if thats the objective or not but maybe making this a general clone shoot would be an great opportunity for other shooters to join. I would love to dust off my m82a1 and put some rounds down range.

Does everyone that goes also have to drive a jeep?

^ Correct but only certain jeeps are allowed based on the clone list.

Other examples may qualify. Please email me.

-MacGyvers




-Jurrassic Park Wrangler




-Dukes of Hazzrd (Daisy's)




-Mash

How close do clone rifles have to be to original manufacturer equipment.  Is correct barrel length, and free float tube  enough, or does it have to be the same FF tube, flash suppressor, trigger, scope, base, mounts etc as original issued equipment?  I'm not trying to be a dick, I am just wondering how close it has to be.

For whatever it is worth, I can donate a bunch of expired cans of soda as targets...they are still full.  I can also donate a bunch of golf ball T holders made from coat hangers...push 'em in the ground, and rest a golf ball (1.6") on top.  I do not need any back, would just like to know someone is having fun with 'em.  If they aren't useful for this event, someone else is welcome to them...free.  Meet near Tacoma to pick 'em up.

What I'm about to type isn't 100% my opinion but this is what I found spending time on the MK12 clone thread.

I think the manufacturers have done the most confuse people....when you start to label every SPR-ish rifle specifically as a "Mod 12," it just clouds everything.

Certain parts have flexibility, certain parts do not. Some parts are beyond impossible to find so you have no choice. A good example of this is not having an original Noveske barrel for your Mod H. Noveske refuses to make these (asked many times over the years) so it's impossible. It's easier with a Mod 1 or 0 since Douglas barrels are readily available.

Here is a great resource for the military Mk12 program. It goes over all of the variances with many pictures.
MK12 history and photos

These parts (or lack of) would be dealbreakers since they're such a big part of the Mk12 program.

-Ops Inc brake and collar (or Allen Eng copy). This is the heart of the MK12 program. You cannot fit the correct Ops Inc/AEM5 suppressor without it.
-Mk12 Mod 1/0 need to have an 18" barrel, Holland needs a 16"
-PRI rifle length tubes on the Mod 0 and Holland, KAC or equivalent for the Mod 1. You can buy the more modern version from PRI for your Mod 0 and no one will say anything.
-Full length PRI copy or original full length Swan sleeve on the Mod 0
-RECCE rail or Larue mount on Mod H.
-Optics wise there is a little flexibility. Mod 0 and Mod 1 usually has a Leupold 3.5-10x40, 3-9x36, 2.5-8x36, etc.. Mod 1 can use a NF 2.5-10x24 and the Mod H can run any of those. I've seen SB Short Dots too. There is flexiblity with scopes if you're at least trying to get close. I've seen Mod 1s were Leupold AR 3-9x40 that were given a free pass...but if you're trying to use a 4-16x with a 50mm objective, it no longer looks the part. That's the crappy thing about cloning...sometimes you pay a lot for older technology but that's also the fun part of it. You start to realize that a lot of older scopes are actually quite nice. It kind of grounds you if you're one of those people that HAS to have FFP, fancy reticles, or a 16x or similar high power. Plus the whole program was designed as a medium length engagement rifle....not a bench rest tack driver shooting 1000yds.
-Rings. Mod 0 = ARMS (no lever stops a bonus), ARMS or NF for Mod 1, and Larue, ARMS, or NF for Mod Holland.
-Stocks. Mod 0 is fixed length, Mod 1's is fixed length or collapsable, and Mod H is almost always a SOPMOD or ACE socom.
-Need the correct FSBs for Mod 1 and Mod 0
-Charging handle is always a PRI Gas Buster.
-M4 style lower is okay but an M16A1 is preferred (either from Nodak or a reprofiled M4).
-Triggers...Geiselle SSA-E/SSA is preferred since we can't have the select fire version but as long as it's not some crazy PSG1 or 10m match style with an offset trigger/larger trigger shoe or fancy red billet trigger, anything goes.

Just look up pictures of different MK12s in the hands of the military...you'll see a lot of variance. What you see is all acceptable for your own clone project.

I'm probably forgetting stuff but that's the gist of it. Usually there is flexibility if you're doing your best to get the modern equivalent to rare part. Like buying PRI parts for a MOD 0 instead of the original Swan stuff. Having lever stopped ARMS rings instead of the originals with no stops. Mod H can have a Gen 4 Ace SOCOM stock but the originals all used Gen 1s.

The main thing is trying to get away from modern stuff....keymod rails, scopes with huge objectives, modern muzzle brakes, billet lowers with a different shape, etc.

The Mod H is the only AR I own. It took a lot of time and money to get there...and I haven't spent half what most people have.

It sounds snooty but you can build a clone easily with off the shelf parts and get a pass. Fully built uppers are available from 3-4 shops. People usually start that way and then slowly exchange the parts out for the rarer original stuff when they come across it. The hunt for the original parts is a big part of the fun. Just having that baseline is the most important.

I see the same thing in most hobbies. If you're into classic muscle or sports cars and want to bring it to a show (that you know is all about keeping the car close as possible to original), bringing your early 70's Porsche 911 with a Chevy 350 swap would be frowned upon. Yeah, you might have sunk 2x the money as everyone else but the heart of the 911 is that air cooled flat six...you just can't get around that. Plus there is hundreds of other shows you can attend and be welcomed.

Seeing that you can bring people with other rifles as long as you have a MK12 clone is pretty laid back....I don't see the rules all that strict. If you're attending an M16 Vietnam replica shoot, you're going to get frowned upon bringing your M4 with early Vietnam handguards but a SOPMOD stock and ACOG.

Even typing all that makes me feel like a Snooty McSnooterman from Snooterville. Guess I'll go drink some tea with my pinkie in the air.

Nah, you're right, we are looking to have a clone shoot, as it stands now it's for the MK12 variety. I just spend two hours putting a 8.5 inch rail on the bottom because that's how the later mod 0's came issued, it was a pain in the ass, but I'm determined to have this one as close as possible. That's why I also spent money on two TM lowers that Braceman reprofiled to M16a1 specs and had engraved as an early Colt and a Hydro-Matic, it was nice to have my own serial numbers though. If I want to shoot an AR, I can go anywhere, I'm actually looking forward to meeting some folks that have put time and effort to their clone builds. By the way, if John was still alive I'm sure he would have done another run of the Holland barrels, after all they were only pac-nor made when the lights were turned off.

hahahaha...seeing your comment about the 8.5" lower rail makes me laugh. I could not believe how much of a pain that was. The screws had to go through the heat shield AND the new brackets...and the heat shield would instantly start sliding around the moment you threaded the hex screw. Of course there is no instructions so you wonder which metal bracket to use when threading the bolt through (and the moment you thread the bolt through, the bracket shifts sideways so the holes are no longer lined up). Of course I don't have a deep jaw vise clamps to keep everything in place.  

A lot of cursing involved in that install I figured would be a 5 min job at most. I could have used 5 hands.

RIP to a good man, company founder, and innovative manufacturer.

On a side note, I have seen and recieved a few negative comments about why we are only allowing certain rifles. I don't mean to be picky or excluding of anyone, but I'm going to be picky and exclude those who don't fall into the category of what is mentioned above, MK12 clone rifles. If you have issues with that, tough break. Put on a shoot of your own and you allow any type of rifles you want.
And no, unfortunately, an "SPR" type upper assembled with off the shelf parts, extended midwest industries rail, sf brake, vortex scope, and all that does not qualify as a clone. Sorry.
Btw not hating on Danny Fence because I have many of their products, but their "mk12" is not even close to an actual MK12. It might be a spr type Upper, but the only thing it shares with the original is a 18" barrel length and flat top upper reciever.

Very interested in getting a chance to stretch 'er legs out a bit.  Initial IM sent.

Looks good Andrew

Looks stellar. Hoping you join us for some fun.

Been looking at the different models and almost thinking I'll put a rifle together and maybe keep one of the aem5's I ordered . Already been trying to find an m16 to buy so if I find one I can use that and put my ssf in it, and I emailed pri for a dealer account. What have I done.

With regards to you emailing pri for a dealer account, well its a slippery ladder with regards the MK12's, they are a little addictive. But you probably have that sort of addiction already with a type 10 ffl and a SOT 2, hope to see you out at the shoot.

Even though my rifle is excluded from this shoot, I do not have any problem with that.  People who go to the effort to out a match together SHOULD be able to include, or exclude any rifles they choose...   Getting to set the parameters of the match is one of the benefits of putting a match on.  

Those who complain that their rifle is excluded, should feel free to expend the effort of putting on a match for which they can set all the rules and parameters.   If I organized a Garand match, I would exclude FN-FAL, or SCAR type rifles, and the MK-12 rifle match is no different.  

Thanks to everyone who expends the work to out in any kind of a match.  Putting on a match is not as easy as most people think.

Appreciate the vote of understanding. I've gotten a ton of hate mail saying how it's unfair this, why can't I participate, your just trying to exclude people that, all sorts. Honestly, my responses were along the line of: "don't like it, host your own and invite anybody you want".
My issue is simple, we (the cloner types) go to great lengths, spend immeasurable amounts of time and money scouring EE boards, just to find the correct parts for our builds. Are they all 100% accurate, not always, but that's the game. Find the base parts, get it put together, and swap out non clone parts for correct  parts as they become available. It's something different than just buying a Danny mk12 spr upper or having the cash to throw down on a high end custom upper (except if you bought an adco or pri lol). There's no blood, sweat, or tears that go into those off the shelf builds. That's what this shoot is all about. Us recognizing each others accomplishments and efforts, plus putting some rounds really far down range. Hell im excited to just see a suppressed mk12!!

No you don't, but BIG bonus points if you do lol. Especially if you have a JKUR or TJR ( • )( • )

I used to run a couple of different rifle match venues.  Regardless of what you do, or how well intentioned you are, there will always be those who gripe because they can't shoot something other than what the match was designed for.  

Those with great cardio will complain that there isn't enough cardio required in the stages, while those with lousy cardio will complain that there is too much movement.  And that is only one example of the types of complaining.  I can even believe that someone putting on a black powder pistol match would get bitched out because they won't allow high capacity magazine fed pistols to compete.

Running matches is a lot of work, and anyone willing to put on a match should be thanked, not bitched out because their match is designed for one type of firearm rather than another type.  

In any case, I urge all those that want matches to include a different type of firearm to put on a match where they can allow, or disallow any type of firearm THEY wish.

Is this shoot still happening?

lol ok

I drive a Jeep but had to lol at the comparison. Back when I didn't drive a Jeep I was often "not allowed" to join Jeep clubs on the trails

Enjoy the shoot

One would think people would be for the love of driving off road together as people would be about the love of shooting together.  Cool kid clubs will stay as they are.  I'll just keep shootin'

DT-USA, I don't actually thnk its about cool kids staying as they are. It was brought up originally on the MK12 discussion forum and the idea was brought over here by Rubicon. Just a few people that  have an interest in shooting their clones of MK12's and having a look at what other folks have built over the years. To be honest if it was just about shooting any ar's I wouldn't be interested, I'm doing that every week anyways with my ar's and bolts plus theres quite a few matches coming up that I'm attending so unless the dates work out, I will be too busy shooting.

I'd love to attend but I don't have a mk12 just an spr if u decide to host a other Event similar to this but allow all rifles I'd be very much interested

It always amazes me how some define a SPR, I'm almost anal about it, but in a way I'm also a little hypocritical as well. I still hate what is passed of as a SPR, or what is called a SPRish. I have a High Caliber built MOD 0, but I'm running a VLTOR A5 buttstock assembly, but that isn't noticeable at all, I'm nut using rings, I'm using a LaRue SPR mount with a NXS 2.5x10. When I talked with Kevin his partner and builder Allen worked for Crane, he did say you will see that setup as well as A2 lowers, when Crane built them they used A1's as they were available in their armories, but often would get changed in the field for who knows why. I'm also soon to have a MOD1. I'm not sure if you guys want rings or not? Do I get extra points for having the 12th Model? I also have a clone of one of Cranes experimental REECE rifles, yes this is a honest true clone, it also uses the 12th Model.  Will take pictures and edit them in later today.

Even if you look in the Mk12 clone threads, you'll notice that most aren't that anal compared to other clone groups (aka MK18).

There is a wide range of optics, mounts, stocks, grips, etc.. I think the main point is trying your best to stay in the spirit of a MK12.

For example...if you can only afford a $300 Leupold AR 3-9x40 for now instead of a MK4 3.5-10x or MRT 2.5-8x, no one is going to give you shit. Everyone knows most MK12 clone stuff is not cheap so it's understandable if you have to cut a few corners when money is tight. BUT....with an inexpensive Leupold AR 3-9x40, you're AT LEAST choosing an optic that "fits" and looks the part. It's also very similar in size/magnification/look to the correct models.

Then you have people that spend $700 on some 4-16x scope with a 50mm objective that extends over half the length of the barrel...and they complain about it not passing the MK12 sniff test. You've now gotten away from the whole point of a MK12 and it doesn't look anything even close to a clone. Everyone is not made of money but there is many inexpensive alternatives that can be done while still trying your best to remain correct (or look the part).

I have seen 2-3 odd scopes on MK12's but it's always scopes that SF already have in their inventory they most likely pulled from another rifle (MK13, MK14, etc..).


BTW: I know a couple of us have M24's that we'll be bringing out too.....anyone is welcome to shoot mine.

I LOVE that rifle. Damn. That is the KAC M110 scope mount, right? My love slowly faded when I saw the price....   Still think it's one of the best looking one piece mounts available.

If a MK12 Part 2 shoot happens in mid 2018, my AEM5 might be out of jail by then.

correct on the KAC M110. Its a solid mount. The price is a tough pill to swallow, but with any KAC stuff it will demand a premium.

It seems that many consider their 16, 18 or 20 inch upper as an SPR. Hell we have companies selling rifles named MK12, with little or no resemblance to a MK12 mod 0 or mod 1. Most even think that spr stands for special purpose rifle, when at the start of the program the "r" stood for receiver, although that did change when they started building full rifles. I think anything built by Alan Brown would be welcome, with regards to stocks, I ran a sopmod on mine for a while but I got an opportunity to get an unmarked cs type stock so I went for it. Scopes and mounts, I think there's been a variety of scopes on the 12's over the years and just as many different mounting setups.  And yeah you gotta love the 12th models.
Attached File

sounds like this will be really cool.  Unfortunately I don't have any clone rifles, just a recce-ish rifle that I would love to find a place to shoot at distance with.

Is this still a thing? I may be able to make it if so.

^Nice!

Did you know that Leupold will install M2/MK262 (in mil!) turrets even if the scope originally came with M1 turrets?  Found that pretty cool.

They used to do it for all their Mark 4's, I don't know about the Mark 6, but they did it for my Mark 8, last year.

Did this ever happen?

I guess not, I keep checking the thread, got to stretch her legs a couple of times.