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Posted: 10/25/2014 6:03:18 PM EDT
Let's just imagine that the nightmare scenario occurs, where 594 passes, and 591 either fails or the courts decide that 594 trumps 591 for some reason. In any case, 594 is the law of the land. Questions:

1. Can trusts be used to thwart the law as far as weapon sharing goes? If I put all my guns in a revocable living trust, for example, and my family/friends are all listed as trustees, could I share guns at the range then?

2. I know exceptions in the law mention formal shooting ranges, but what about people (like me) that go shoot in the boonies and don't use formal ranges. Are we just screwed or...? I'm talking about "transfers" between immediate family members on public/private lands where shooting is legal / allowed by the property owner. Can I no longer hand my wife one of my pistols in such a location if 594 is law?  

3. If the initiative passes, when does it go into effect? Immediately? Jan 1? after 90 days?

I'm sure others have questions as well. Maybe we could use this thread to discuss the issue....because the 'main thread' is mostly about the politics of this issue and the election. I'd like a dedicated source of info about "life under 594" should we have to face that scenario...
Link Posted: 10/25/2014 7:35:22 PM EDT
[#1]
Then we ignore the virtually unenforceable law, and wait for the first average gun owner to be prosecuted up to the state supreme court.
Link Posted: 10/25/2014 7:55:40 PM EDT
[#2]
For me, it will be time to consider moving. The 3 counties will continue to drive this state into the shitter. Nearly all of my family lives here in WA, and I don't take leaving lightly, so I will stick around a little while to see if it is challenged in court and give it a chance to be fixed.
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 2:09:56 AM EDT
[#3]
I'm already looking to move when my particular employment situation allows for it....but the questions posed are more along the lines of what we do in the mean time?    Yes, ignoring any law is an "option", but lets imagine for a second that we wanted to remain in compliance...
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 2:28:06 AM EDT
[#4]
I am going to start building my own rifles - including LARGE ones - from scratch, and teaching others how to.

Transfers?  What transfers?  I MADE these, bitch.

Also: this is going to completely fuck up WDFW hunter education and green card shooting qualifications.  THAT will get it changed quick...
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 3:54:41 AM EDT
[#5]
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For me, it will be time to consider moving. The 3 counties will continue to drive this state into the shitter. Nearly all of my family lives here in WA, and I don't take leaving lightly, so I will stick around a little while to see if it is challenged in court and give it a chance to be fixed.
View Quote


The way it's going, I'm apt to sell the house and move to Arizona or Texas.
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 6:47:44 AM EDT
[#6]
I plan to ignore it, as it seems unenforceable anyway. But let's hope it fails. I have been telling everyone I can to vote no on 594 and yes on 591.
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 1:52:56 PM EDT
[#7]
All you pussies who are running away are doing exactly what the libs want, leaving the rest of us here to get screwed even worse, and making more laws that much more sure to pass.

Stay and fight, cowards.
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 1:58:31 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
All you pussies who are running away are doing exactly what the libs want, leaving the rest of us here to get screwed even worse, and making more laws that much more sure to pass.

Stay and fight, cowards.
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Has nothing to do with being a coward. I'd rather be able to express my rights and not feel persecuted in doing so. We have had some major victories in the past few years but this state and its gun laws have a "sinking ship" feeling.

I don't want to leave but it's an option that I'm heavily considering.
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 2:24:38 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
All you pussies who are running away are doing exactly what the libs want, leaving the rest of us here to get screwed even worse, and making more laws that much more sure to pass.

Stay and fight, cowards.
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Its one thing to stand and fight, its another to go down with the ship.
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 3:52:00 PM EDT
[#10]
I don't know what the hell I'll do.  Worst case scenario 591 is struck down by votes or when supreme court decides against it in favor of 594, then how the hell do I sell anything?  



Or (hypotheticlly speaking, as it would be illegal) ignore it because it makes it impossible to sell anything due to conflicts with federal laws and hope I don't sell something to the wrong person?  



Learn how to use gunbroker to actually sell something other than buy?  I've got 3 to 4 ARs I planned to sell to fund an AUG A3, or sell (for whatever amount someone is willing to pay of course) when the inevitable next panic buy strikes.  I'm tempted to say f-it and see what I can get at the next Centralia show.  I need to step up my timeline on purchasing that AUG A3 too.
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 4:29:56 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:


Its one thing to stand and fight, its another to go down with the ship.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
All you pussies who are running away are doing exactly what the libs want, leaving the rest of us here to get screwed even worse, and making more laws that much more sure to pass.

Stay and fight, cowards.


Its one thing to stand and fight, its another to go down with the ship.


True but this ship is far from sinking
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 4:44:27 PM EDT
[#12]
I have to agree, I was going to say that it's a 50-50 chance that it will pass, but now I am thinking that it's about 70-30 that it won't pass.  There are a couple of reasons for that, one of those is Gabby Giffords, she came to Seattle to plug 594, than the other day I heard that the families of Sandy Hook are coming into Seattle to plug for 594 as well.  If they weren't coming into Seattle, I would be worried, but since they are especially this close to election day, it means Bloomberg knows that it isn't going to pass, and is using a hail mary pass to get it to pass.
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 5:12:22 PM EDT
[#13]
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True but this ship is far from sinking
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Quoted:
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All you pussies who are running away are doing exactly what the libs want, leaving the rest of us here to get screwed even worse, and making more laws that much more sure to pass.

Stay and fight, cowards.


Its one thing to stand and fight, its another to go down with the ship.


True but this ship is far from sinking



I've been living here for nearly 40 years.  The current libtard ship is the size of a current aircraft carrier.
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 5:39:45 PM EDT
[#14]
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I'm tempted to say f-it and see what I can get at the next Centralia show.
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Watch out for negligent discharges
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 6:09:14 PM EDT
[#15]
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I have to agree, I was going to say that it's a 50-50 chance that it will pass, but now I am thinking that it's about 70-30 that it won't pass.  There are a couple of reasons for that, one of those is Gabby Giffords, she came to Seattle to plug 594, than the other day I heard that the families of Sandy Hook are coming into Seattle to plug for 594 as well.  If they weren't coming into Seattle, I would be worried, but since they are especially this close to election day, it means Bloomberg knows that it isn't going to pass, and is using a hail mary pass to get it to pass.
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Do not forget the "vote count".   They will make the dead, zombies, aliens and anything that comes to their rotten minds.  We already saw a demo in Chicago a couple weeks ago.   Democrats a likely "calibrating" the machines right now.    


Link Posted: 10/26/2014 6:45:25 PM EDT
[#16]

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Watch out for negligent discharges
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Quoted:

I'm tempted to say f-it and see what I can get at the next Centralia show.




Watch out for negligent discharges
Indeed.  Luckily it wasn't pointed my way that day.  



 
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 8:13:23 PM EDT
[#17]
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The way it's going, I'm apt to sell the house and move to Arizona or Texas.
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For me, it will be time to consider moving. The 3 counties will continue to drive this state into the shitter. Nearly all of my family lives here in WA, and I don't take leaving lightly, so I will stick around a little while to see if it is challenged in court and give it a chance to be fixed.


The way it's going, I'm apt to sell the house and move to Arizona or Texas.


Texas.... I have nothing against Texas (my wife is from Corpus Christi) however if you are moving because of gun laws I would say that even if 594 passes, Washington still has overall better gun laws than Texas.
Link Posted: 10/27/2014 12:20:32 AM EDT
[#18]
Gun laws aside. there are still plenty of reasons to move to TX from WA, especially Seattle.

-better weather (subjective)
-better people (I haven't been anywhere WORSE than Seattle overall, hands-down the worst part of Seattle is the general libtarded weaselly population)
-lower cost-of-living
-significantly better economy and more job prospects
-less Nissan Leafs (leaves?), Priuses (Prii? I hate those fucking electric shitboxes)
-no more rat-faced, nasally Suzan DelBene commercials
-more open spaces
-red meat available even on vegetarian menus
Link Posted: 10/27/2014 1:22:18 AM EDT
[#19]
I'd rather be in TX too... So long as it wasn't in Austin or Houston. That said, WA "wins" in one regard: much lower property taxes. Based on what I have seen they are basically twice as high as here in WA.
Link Posted: 10/27/2014 1:30:04 AM EDT
[#20]
WA will get more and more stupid, 3 1/2 years 4 worst case and I will retire and leave.

I would stay in WA if not for the three dumb counties running everything.

I have been talking to a lot of people on I 594, the non gun people think just a background check when buying a gun. When I explain some of the other aspects they are like how would any one know?

Then that does not make sense. Yeah no shit they are lying to you in those commercials.

Link Posted: 10/27/2014 1:42:22 AM EDT
[#21]
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I'd rather be in TX too... So long as it wasn't in Austin or Houston. That said, WA "wins" in one regard: much lower property taxes. Based on what I have seen they are basically twice as high as here in WA.
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That is true, but everything else is cheaper there.  Of course it keeps people in my industry (accounting) busy.  Whatever you do, don't look on real estate websites and compare what you can get in nice areas near the major cities there vs. here... $500,000 gets you a crack den built in in the 20's in the shittiest part of South/Central District Seattle, that certainly isn't the case down there.
Link Posted: 10/27/2014 3:17:23 AM EDT
[#22]
I'm feeling the conversations are happening at word of mouth level enough for it to gain momentum to not pass.

Lets hope this is the case.

Regardless, I am not moving from my state.  I will stay.
Link Posted: 10/27/2014 3:43:20 AM EDT
[#23]
i'm staying here for the fight. we've won plenty of battles (lots of preemption, silencers, SBR, etc). if "they" win, it will be at great cost -- ranking in the top most expensive initiatives in WA state history. and it would be a minor victory.

the big question is if i-591 passes also, which would tie up the courts for a while.

if i-594 passes and i-591 does not, then 594 either gets challenged in the courts or amended in the legislature (2/3 majority in both houses for the first 2 years).
Link Posted: 10/27/2014 3:46:48 AM EDT
[#24]
not sure why some people are claiming that 594 is "unenforceable". Like any other law in the state, all that is required to get in trouble is for an agent of the state to see you do it. If you're out in the woods shooting and a park ranger guy spots you and a friend passing guns back and forth to shoot targets and they report it, it sure as shit is enforceable. Can they prove that a gun bought before 594 is owned by a specific person? No. Can they prove that ONE of the two people passing it back/forth must NOT be the owner? Hell yes.

Even if that wasn't the case, the enforcement approach may simply me a long term one. Kinda like the 1986 MG manufacturing ban. Eventually they will all be gone. Just a matter of time. Eventually a majority of the guns in the state will be 'post transfer ban' and they certainly will be able to tell who owns what, and who doesn't own what. This law is plenty enforceable enough.
Link Posted: 10/27/2014 4:12:20 AM EDT
[#25]
that's when you subpoena the 594 proponents who were claiming that "merely handing a gun to someone is not a transfer" and have them explain on the stand, under oath, why they said that.

either they would have to admit they deliberately misled voters, or they would have to argue in favor of the defense against their own bill. neither scenario would work out in their favor.
Link Posted: 10/27/2014 4:21:38 AM EDT
[#26]
considering that courts have found that even written documents from federal agencies telling you to "do X" are not a solid defense to actually doing X (specifically when the IRS tells you how to do any aspect of your taxes), I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the public ramblings of some dirty downtown seattle hippies about the intent of this initiative is not going to be especially relevant in court. Politicians and their supporters have been lying about laws forever. Since we can't (apparently) repeal Obamacare even though Obama lied about it prior to passage and intentionally misled us all, I doubt lies about 594 will mean much in a legal sense.
Link Posted: 10/27/2014 9:50:33 AM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:
considering that courts have found that even written documents from federal agencies telling you to "do X" are not a solid defense to actually doing X (specifically when the IRS tells you how to do any aspect of your taxes), I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the public ramblings of some dirty downtown seattle hippies about the intent of this initiative is not going to be especially relevant in court. Politicians and their supporters have been lying about laws forever. Since we can't (apparently) repeal Obamacare even though Obama lied about it prior to passage and intentionally misled us all, I doubt lies about 594 will mean much in a legal sense.
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We "cannot repeal" obamacare for the same reason the pest wasn't impeached yet.  The moment  we get a Congress that follows the Constitution and the law the critter will be impeached and obamacare repealed.   Let's see how this election goes.  Of course, fraud is rampant so it's difficult to foresee results.






Link Posted: 10/27/2014 11:31:36 AM EDT
[#28]
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We "cannot repeal" obamacare for the same reason the pest wasn't impeached yet.  The moment  we get a Congress that follows the Constitution and the law the critter will be impeached and obamacare repealed.   Let's see how this election goes. Of course, fraud is rampant so it's difficult to foresee results.






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considering that courts have found that even written documents from federal agencies telling you to "do X" are not a solid defense to actually doing X (specifically when the IRS tells you how to do any aspect of your taxes), I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the public ramblings of some dirty downtown seattle hippies about the intent of this initiative is not going to be especially relevant in court. Politicians and their supporters have been lying about laws forever. Since we can't (apparently) repeal Obamacare even though Obama lied about it prior to passage and intentionally misled us all, I doubt lies about 594 will mean much in a legal sense.




We "cannot repeal" obamacare for the same reason the pest wasn't impeached yet.  The moment  we get a Congress that follows the Constitution and the law the critter will be impeached and obamacare repealed.   Let's see how this election goes. Of course, fraud is rampant so it's difficult to foresee results.








Plan on it, sure they are already mobilizing for recounts, spinning media stories and car pooling illegals to the voting booth
Link Posted: 10/27/2014 12:16:30 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
considering that courts have found that even written documents from federal agencies telling you to "do X" are not a solid defense to actually doing X (specifically when the IRS tells you how to do any aspect of your taxes), I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the public ramblings of some dirty downtown seattle hippies about the intent of this initiative is not going to be especially relevant in court. Politicians and their supporters have been lying about laws forever. Since we can't (apparently) repeal Obamacare even though Obama lied about it prior to passage and intentionally misled us all, I doubt lies about 594 will mean much in a legal sense.
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the intent is actually relevant in court. i have spoken to a number of attorneys about this.
Link Posted: 10/27/2014 2:50:59 PM EDT
[#30]
If we lose on 594, plan on another battle at the next election, as the other side will try for another "step".  This is why bloomie and friends are trying so hard, they failed at the fed level, and with CO falling (for now), they think they got some momentum now, and want to keep it going.  We need to win every time, they only need to win once in a state and then the slide begins.  If CO cannot reverse course, then the long game is lost, and eventually most states will look like CO or worse.
Link Posted: 10/27/2014 11:08:10 PM EDT
[#31]
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Plan on it, sure they are already mobilizing for recounts, spinning media stories and car pooling illegals to the voting booth
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Quoted:
Quoted:
considering that courts have found that even written documents from federal agencies telling you to "do X" are not a solid defense to actually doing X (specifically when the IRS tells you how to do any aspect of your taxes), I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the public ramblings of some dirty downtown seattle hippies about the intent of this initiative is not going to be especially relevant in court. Politicians and their supporters have been lying about laws forever. Since we can't (apparently) repeal Obamacare even though Obama lied about it prior to passage and intentionally misled us all, I doubt lies about 594 will mean much in a legal sense.



We "cannot repeal" obamacare for the same reason the pest wasn't impeached yet.  The moment  we get a Congress that follows the Constitution and the law the critter will be impeached and obamacare repealed.   Let's see how this election goes. Of course, fraud is rampant so it's difficult to foresee results.





Plan on it, sure they are already mobilizing for recounts, spinning media stories and car pooling illegals to the voting booth




The machines in Chicago, Maryland (those that we know about so far) and who knows where else had "calibration" issues that coincidentally only changed votes to democrats.   And we do not need to discuss how votes are "counted" in WA, isn't it?  


So, I'm curious about who falls for this election circus they put up.




Link Posted: 10/28/2014 1:40:38 AM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:
If we lose on 594, plan on another battle at the next election, as the other side will try for another "step".  This is why bloomie and friends are trying so hard, they failed at the fed level, and with CO falling (for now), they think they got some momentum now, and want to keep it going.  We need to win every time, they only need to win once in a state and then the slide begins.  If CO cannot reverse course, then the long game is lost, and eventually most states will look like CO or worse.
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the only answer is to get "background check" bills of our own. this initiative thing is unwinnable with money. we have to win with tactics. bloomy can throw endless amounts of cash at these initiatives. they bypass the traditional legislative process, it's a way to buy legislation.

gun owners are simply going to have to concede background checks. there is simply no argument we can make against them that will resonate with voters. none. zero. nada. if we keep fighting on that basis we will lose. and we will lose everything.

what needs to happen is that background check legislation needs to happen on our conditions. it needs to be an overall win. concede background checks and gain a whole bunch more in the process. set up such a spaghetti mess of obstacles in exchange that the antigunners will spend decades unraveling it. dismantle gun registries -- then bloomberg will be stuck with the unenviable task of arguing in favor of them. we need to hijack their message and present it as our own, on our own terms.

we can either write the legislation, or let the opposition do it.



gun owners also need to force the NRA and the SAF to settle their differences and start cooperating. that rift is directly responsible for the mess we are in.
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 2:10:57 AM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:


the only answer is to get "background check" bills of our own. this initiative thing is unwinnable with money. we have to win with tactics. bloomy can throw endless amounts of cash at these initiatives. they bypass the traditional legislative process, it's a way to buy legislation.

gun owners are simply going to have to concede background checks. there is simply no argument we can make against them that will resonate with voters. none. zero. nada. if we keep fighting on that basis we will lose. and we will lose everything.

what needs to happen is that background check legislation needs to happen on our conditions. it needs to be an overall win. concede background checks and gain a whole bunch more in the process. set up such a spaghetti mess of obstacles in exchange that the antigunners will spend decades unraveling it. dismantle gun registries -- then bloomberg will be stuck with the unenviable task of arguing in favor of them. we need to hijack their message and present it as our own, on our own terms.

we can either write the legislation, or let the opposition do it.

gun owners also need to force the NRA and the SAF to settle their differences and start cooperating. that rift is directly responsible for the mess we are in.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
If we lose on 594, plan on another battle at the next election, as the other side will try for another "step".  This is why bloomie and friends are trying so hard, they failed at the fed level, and with CO falling (for now), they think they got some momentum now, and want to keep it going.  We need to win every time, they only need to win once in a state and then the slide begins.  If CO cannot reverse course, then the long game is lost, and eventually most states will look like CO or worse.


the only answer is to get "background check" bills of our own. this initiative thing is unwinnable with money. we have to win with tactics. bloomy can throw endless amounts of cash at these initiatives. they bypass the traditional legislative process, it's a way to buy legislation.

gun owners are simply going to have to concede background checks. there is simply no argument we can make against them that will resonate with voters. none. zero. nada. if we keep fighting on that basis we will lose. and we will lose everything.

what needs to happen is that background check legislation needs to happen on our conditions. it needs to be an overall win. concede background checks and gain a whole bunch more in the process. set up such a spaghetti mess of obstacles in exchange that the antigunners will spend decades unraveling it. dismantle gun registries -- then bloomberg will be stuck with the unenviable task of arguing in favor of them. we need to hijack their message and present it as our own, on our own terms.

we can either write the legislation, or let the opposition do it.

gun owners also need to force the NRA and the SAF to settle their differences and start cooperating. that rift is directly responsible for the mess we are in.



We already have background check laws.  What they are adding is bullshit just to create headaches to whoever follows the laws and nothing else.   The worst part is that existing laws are not even enforced.  Repeat offenders are still cut loose and seen as "victims".

What's behind it is the real problem.  The only way to enforce the bullshit they are spewing now is through registration.  And some online discussions are already preparing the lib's bots to start the next "common sense" campaign.  They are even using cars' registrations as examples.

The problem is that there's always that "we must concede this or that".  We already have been conceding too much to those fucktards that keep bringing their own crap such as homos' marriage, free marijuana and others.  

They bring and impose their crap using lies, deceits and fraud.

Enough of this shit.  Enough of keeping conceding here and there.  

We are using technicalities and reason to debate with a rabble that only reacts to emotions like animals.  Did you see the signs for i-594?  They say "save lives and reduce crime" and we know that's the last thing that shit will do.  Then look at the i-591 sign.  Talks about gun rights.  The rabble's little brain will process the "save lives and reduce crime" deceit.  

If you want to beat those criminals pushing those lies and get the rabble's hearts and minds you will have to use the same strategy.



Link Posted: 10/28/2014 3:03:34 AM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:
We already have background check laws.  What they are adding is bullshit just to create headaches to whoever follows the laws and nothing else.   The worst part is that existing laws are not even enforced.  Repeat offenders are still cut loose and seen as "victims".

What's behind it is the real problem.  The only way to enforce the bullshit they are spewing now is through registration.  And some online discussions are already preparing the lib's bots to start the next "common sense" campaign.  They are even using cars' registrations as examples.

The problem is that there's always that "we must concede this or that".  We already have been conceding too much to those fucktards that keep bringing their own crap such as homos' marriage, free marijuana and others.  

They bring and impose their crap using lies, deceits and fraud.

Enough of this shit.  Enough of keeping conceding here and there.  

We are using technicalities and reason to debate with a rabble that only reacts to emotions like animals.  Did you see the signs for i-594?  They say "save lives and reduce crime" and we know that's the last thing that shit will do.  Then look at the i-591 sign.  Talks about gun rights.  The rabble's little brain will process the "save lives and reduce crime" deceit.  

If you want to beat those criminals pushing those lies and get the rabble's hearts and minds you will have to use the same strategy.
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I agree that we need to use the initiative process to our advantage.  I-591 is a start, but did not get a great PR going.
I'd say we put out our own gun "registration" initiative forward, say, register a gun and you can carry it anywhere in public, just like a registered car can drive lawfully unimpeded on public roads.  Save lives, register guns.
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 4:50:43 AM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:
We already have background check laws.  What they are adding is bullshit just to create headaches to whoever follows the laws and nothing else.   The worst part is that existing laws are not even enforced.  Repeat offenders are still cut loose and seen as "victims".

What's behind it is the real problem.  The only way to enforce the bullshit they are spewing now is through registration.  And some online discussions are already preparing the lib's bots to start the next "common sense" campaign.  They are even using cars' registrations as examples.
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Quoted:
We already have background check laws.  What they are adding is bullshit just to create headaches to whoever follows the laws and nothing else.   The worst part is that existing laws are not even enforced.  Repeat offenders are still cut loose and seen as "victims".

What's behind it is the real problem.  The only way to enforce the bullshit they are spewing now is through registration.  And some online discussions are already preparing the lib's bots to start the next "common sense" campaign.  They are even using cars' registrations as examples.


yes. the problem they have is that the public is rightly skeptical of registration. this message is much less appealing and we have a much more reasonable chance of combatting it. they spent effort dismissing criticism of 594 as "it doesn't create a registry". a lot of non-gun people don't like the idea of a registry, and are solidly on our side.

there is no argument we can put forward with regards to background checks, that will resonate with enough voters to make a difference. none.

Quoted:
The problem is that there's always that "we must concede this or that".  We already have been conceding too much to those fucktards that keep bringing their own crap such as homos' marriage, free marijuana and others.  


you must concede the battles you CANNOT WIN. what you can only do is lose them on favorable terms.

if you fight a battle you CANNOT WIN, you LOSE EVERYTHING.

Quoted:
They bring and impose their crap using lies, deceits and fraud.

Enough of this shit.  Enough of keeping conceding here and there.  


"all or nothing" approaches frequently result in you getting nothing.

how many states have to fall before you realize this? arizona and nevada are next. are you willing to lose all 50 states on a principle of unwavering ideology?

Quoted:
We are using technicalities and reason to debate with a rabble that only reacts to emotions like animals.  Did you see the signs for i-594?  They say "save lives and reduce crime" and we know that's the last thing that shit will do.  Then look at the i-591 sign.  Talks about gun rights.  The rabble's little brain will process the "save lives and reduce crime" deceit.  

If you want to beat those criminals pushing those lies and get the rabble's hearts and minds you will have to use the same strategy.


now you're beginning to understand.

we have to use their strategy against them. an irresistible "background check" initative with terms favorable to gun owners and objectionable to gun grabbers. do it right and the gun grabbers will spend decades unravelling the obstacles we place in their path.

gun owners are our own worst enemy. we need to start approaching these battles strategically, or lose the war. all-or-nothing on unwinnable battles is not the way to go.



ultimately, we in WA are screwed because of the rift between the NRA and the SAF. that is the whole reason we are in the mess we are in now.

we need to start demanding the NRA and SAF resolve their differences and start cooperating NOW.
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 8:51:38 AM EDT
[#36]
We run the next initiative:  Full Text Below:

Anyone not passing a criminal background check at time of transfer for any item moved in commerce shall not receive the item the person attempted to purchase.  Any person transferring an item moved in commerce not performing a background check shall be punished by immediate death.

Bingo, criminals can not buy anything.  Criminals will move to Oregon, Idaho, and Canada, or further.  The criminals leave the state, we can shut the prisons down because those people are not going to pass.

It is criminal control.

Now I wonder if the same people and groups contributing will back this simple initiative?  Yeah, I know the answer.



Link Posted: 10/28/2014 1:04:59 PM EDT
[#37]
Been looking at property in Idaho/western Montana.  Property and gas taxes(you will see another increase this year) was the push, and if this passes will be the shove.
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 2:04:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Whoever coined the term gunshow loophole is a deceitful genius :|

I disagree with almost everything bani said though. If it wasn't background checks this year, it would be something else, I doubt they'll give up until we're either disarmed or like Canada.

Quoted:
Been looking at property in Idaho/western Montana.  Property and gas taxes(you will see another increase this year) was the push, and if this passes will be the shove.
View Quote

There's something to be said for living with mostly like minded people...
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 2:51:10 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:there is no argument we can put forward with regards to background checks, that will resonate with enough voters to make a difference. none.
View Quote


Actually there is, and it's pretty obvious: criminals ignore the law. Every single person in the state, country, and world understand this on both a fundamental 'gut' level and under further analysis. The fact that you can't imagine what will/won't resonate with voters seems inconsequential. A ban on individual transfers will be as effective as a ban on murder. It will never work and it will only (negatively) impact law abiding citizens. Even liberals understand this concept, look at Canada and their decision to get rid of their long gun registry, which every one could see was doing NOTHING to stop a single crime.
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 8:43:53 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Actually there is, and it's pretty obvious: criminals ignore the law. Every single person in the state, country, and world understand this on both a fundamental 'gut' level and under further analysis. The fact that you can't imagine what will/won't resonate with voters seems inconsequential. A ban on individual transfers will be as effective as a ban on murder. It will never work and it will only (negatively) impact law abiding citizens. Even liberals understand this concept, look at Canada and their decision to get rid of their long gun registry, which every one could see was doing NOTHING to stop a single crime.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:there is no argument we can put forward with regards to background checks, that will resonate with enough voters to make a difference. none.


Actually there is, and it's pretty obvious: criminals ignore the law. Every single person in the state, country, and world understand this on both a fundamental 'gut' level and under further analysis. The fact that you can't imagine what will/won't resonate with voters seems inconsequential. A ban on individual transfers will be as effective as a ban on murder. It will never work and it will only (negatively) impact law abiding citizens. Even liberals understand this concept, look at Canada and their decision to get rid of their long gun registry, which every one could see was doing NOTHING to stop a single crime.


we keep using this argument, and it doesn't work. if it did, 594 would have gone down in flames long ago.

what will/will not resonate with voters is NOT inconsequential. like it or not, the future of your rights depend on getting votes!

this is a political game, not a logic one. as long as you keep trying to use logic, you will lose. the other side can lie lie lie lie lie and there's nothing you can do to prevent it.

keep believing that we can win the background check argument -- that is a losing strategy.

gun owners need to WAKE UP.

the voter initative thing is a whole new ballgame. you keep thinking you can approach it like traditional lawmaking through state legislative bodies. as long as you keep thinking that, you are gonna get owned.

the ONLY chance we have is to co-opt the message - background checks - for our own gain.
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 8:44:44 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Whoever coined the term gunshow loophole is a deceitful genius :|

I disagree with almost everything bani said though. If it wasn't background checks this year, it would be something else, I doubt they'll give up until we're either disarmed or like Canada.


There's something to be said for living with mostly like minded people...
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Whoever coined the term gunshow loophole is a deceitful genius :|

I disagree with almost everything bani said though. If it wasn't background checks this year, it would be something else, I doubt they'll give up until we're either disarmed or like Canada.

Quoted:
Been looking at property in Idaho/western Montana.  Property and gas taxes(you will see another increase this year) was the push, and if this passes will be the shove.

There's something to be said for living with mostly like minded people...


Idaho/Montana are next on bloomy's list, as is texas. any state with "lax gun laws". eventually all 50 states, you can bet on it.
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 8:48:16 PM EDT
[#42]
WA gun owners need to contact the NRA and demand they resolve their differences with the SAF!
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 10:03:23 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Idaho/Montana are next on bloomy's list, as is texas. any state with "lax gun laws". eventually all 50 states, you can bet on it.
View Quote


I guess the part you don't understand about those states is, the sheep are actually sheep.
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 1:02:31 AM EDT
[#44]
Might want to work on those reading comp skills. I never said what does / doesn't resonate with voters was inconsequential.

I reject the notion that it is pointless to oppose anything the left does with logic. If emotion is the entirety of the debate, then nothing conservative will ever win. Being a conservative requires you to use your brain. If that "isn't allowed", then we might as well start a shooting revolution because elections will be pointless. All or gun rights will be gone. All our property rights too.

The fact that we still have gun rights is a testament to the fact that people DO think about these things. It's not just pure emotional reaction. The number of states that have adopted concealed carry laws over the last several decades directly contradicts your argument. In WA, suppressors and SBR being legalized does as well.

I'm well aware that low info voters sometimes win. But the idea all voters are illogical drones to emotion is ridiculous. We will never be able to be more emotional than the scream-and-leap liberals, so coopting the message is hardly the answer. That's what the GOP tried to do in 2012 when they picked Romneycare to run against Obamacare. You can't out liberal a liberal and win any election.
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 2:30:09 AM EDT
[#45]
the problem is that the playing field has changed.

as long as the battle was in congress, state legislatures, we stood a chance with logic and lobbying representatives. the slow, deliberate legislative process and review through multiple houses. the chance to get bills amended on the way.

the problem is the initative process changes all that.

this is a new game, new rules.

did the concealed carry laws get passed by initiative? no. traditional legislative process. suppressors? sbr? both traditional legislative process, not initiative. do you really think they would have succeeded as initiatives? i seriously doubt it.

gun owners are going to have to adapt. keep playing by the old rules and lose.
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 3:42:24 AM EDT
[#46]
This is why the initiative process simply shouldn't exist.
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 3:58:00 AM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is why the initiative process simply shouldn't exist.
View Quote


we either learn to use it, or end up having it used against us.

yes, it sucks, it's unfair. but it's the new reality.

changing the initiative process is a completely separate battle.
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 5:26:00 AM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


we either learn to use it, or end up having it used against us.

yes, it sucks, it's unfair. but it's the new reality.

changing the initiative process is a completely separate battle.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
This is why the initiative process simply shouldn't exist.


we either learn to use it, or end up having it used against us.

yes, it sucks, it's unfair. but it's the new reality.

changing the initiative process is a completely separate battle.


It is, but initiatives shouldn't exist.
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 4:51:18 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
the problem is that the playing field has changed.

as long as the battle was in congress, state legislatures, we stood a chance with logic and lobbying representatives. the slow, deliberate legislative process and review through multiple houses. the chance to get bills amended on the way.

the problem is the initative process changes all that.

this is a new game, new rules.

did the concealed carry laws get passed by initiative? no. traditional legislative process. suppressors? sbr? both traditional legislative process, not initiative. do you really think they would have succeeded as initiatives? i seriously doubt it.

gun owners are going to have to adapt. keep playing by the old rules and lose.
View Quote


You are conveniently ignoring Colorado and the recalls. Popular vote in democrat districts, where logic / reason beat wild-eyed emotion about evil high capacity 'clips'.

In any event, the politics of 'what to do next' aren't even the point of this thread. The point of the thread is: how do you adapt on a practical / individual level to abide by the law and avoid charges. The law is moronic, but if it becomes law I need to follow it until I move to a free state or it's overturned. So....trusts with family/friends in it that are established prior to the effective date? realistic work around?
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 4:57:46 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You are conveniently ignoring Colorado and the recalls. Popular vote in democrat districts, where logic / reason beat wild-eyed emotion about evil high capacity 'clips'.p.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You are conveniently ignoring Colorado and the recalls. Popular vote in democrat districts, where logic / reason beat wild-eyed emotion about evil high capacity 'clips'.p.


and what did the recalls accomplish? sure, it made many politicians shit their pants. but the bad legislation is still in place.

also, initiatives avoid the whole legislator accountability problem. the public votes the legislation in, so who do you recall?

Quoted:
In any event, the politics of 'what to do next' aren't even the point of this thread. The point of the thread is: how do you adapt on a practical / individual level to abide by the law and avoid charges....


unless the law gets successfully neutered with legal challenges, the approach I would take is start trying to organize amendments. exemption for CPL holders for one.
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