Are Form 1s being approved for WA? Yes. How do I know? I just got one back. - Page 7

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Are Form 1s being approved for WA? Yes. How do I know? I just got one back. (Page 7 of 8)

Posted: 11/13/2014 3:12:00 AM EDT

[#1]

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Quoted:
10/9 - 11/12 still pretty quick turnaround.

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Congrats dood! I'm glad you posted. I submitted my 4th F1 on 10/16...so my approval should be just around the corner. Might even come on my 10th Anniversary trip to the coast.

Posted: 11/13/2014 4:36:51 AM EDT

[#2]

Filed paper CLEO F1 August, pending as of yesterday. They say to anticipate the return in March. Looking forward to that!

Posted: 11/13/2014 2:17:55 PM EDT

[#3]

I believe that I have read the whole thread but one thing is confusing me. Can someone tell me if going to Oregon (or Idaho) to "assemble" a Form 1 is required or are people joking?

Thanks,

Posted: 11/13/2014 3:19:24 PM EDT

[#4]

^ No one really knows for sure how the law will be interpreted in court.

Half see it as an easy cover your ass, the other half see it as over kill.

Posted: 11/13/2014 4:42:27 PM EDT

[#5]

A buddy of mine e-filed his Form 1 on 06OCT, and got his approval back yesterday, 12NOV.

Posted: 11/13/2014 4:56:59 PM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:
I believe that I have read the whole thread but one thing is confusing me. Can someone tell me if going to Oregon (or Idaho) to "assemble" a Form 1 is required or are people joking?

Thanks,

View Quote

Nobody knows for sure. Several people are going to Oregon because they think that will cover their ass if it ever comes into question.

Posted: 11/13/2014 9:21:28 PM EDT

[#7]

I'd say don't go south. Not without filing a 5320 prior to your trip. It all seems a waste of effort to me.

Posted: 11/13/2014 10:59:48 PM EDT

[#8]

Sent off most recent 5320.20 on 23 October, it was approved 3 Nov and back in my mailbox 10-13 Nov. I was out of town Mon-Wed night and only got the mail this evening.

Time to assemble another!

Posted: 11/13/2014 11:11:12 PM EDT

[#9]

I just got another 5320.20 back today also. w00t!

As far as going into another state for the initial 'making' of your SBR, I recommend it. "An abundance of caution" is my middle name. I live 10 mins from the border, and faxing in the form requires almost zero effort. Totally worth it for me. I think we are all gonna be 'ok'....but if the AG does decide to be a total asshole, those in the "I don't care what anyone says, I got a stamp and I'm making it right here!" crowd are going to regret it.

On the other hand, if you lived in Port Angeles or something, I can understand why you'd want to avoid driving to another state for this at all costs...

Posted: 12/3/2014 12:15:55 AM EDT

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:
I just got another 5320.20 back today also. w00t!

As far as going into another state for the initial 'making' of your SBR, I recommend it. "An abundance of caution" is my middle name. I live 10 mins from the border, and faxing in the form requires almost zero effort. Totally worth it for me. I think we are all gonna be 'ok'....but if the AG does decide to be a total asshole, those in the "I don't care what anyone says, I got a stamp and I'm making it right here!" crowd are going to regret it.

On the other hand, if you lived in Port Angeles or something, I can understand why you'd want to avoid driving to another state for this at all costs...

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Any new news ? I happen to be one of those people that live out on the Olympic Peninsula and definitely don't want to spend $1400 + to buy a complete rifle that's not set up to my liking .

Posted: 12/3/2014 2:28:34 AM EDT

[#11]

if you mean the AGs interpretation of the law, there's no news yet....that I've heard of. It'll probably be months before we hear anything on that...

Posted: 12/3/2014 2:33:54 AM EDT

[#12]

I figured as much there only quick to move when it's taking money .

Posted: 12/3/2014 3:55:25 AM EDT

[#13]

I don't know the AG from Adam....but if they are a hardcore "screw those damn gun nuts!" types, they could just come out with a "no, you can't make them in WA and anyone who already has has broken the clear language of the law...we're gonna prosecute!" to try to tack felonies on as many "gun nuts" as possible. Maybe the entire intent of the long delay is to ensare the max number of people!

I don't think that will happen....but what exactly is stopping it? The good graces of a liberal that hates guns?

I'm not taking ANY chances. None, no matter what the cost or amount of time I have to invest. Of course, the absolute safest thing to do would be to just not own any guns at all....but I love them and I'm not going to give the antis that kind of satisfaction!

Posted: 12/3/2014 5:15:49 AM EDT

[#14]

dont go south, waste of time. how would he be able to even access the documents to prove you didnt go south without probable cause? its a waste of time, the ag has better things to do... its the gov they are totally in efficient and coming after people on these f1's would require more than doing the minimum they need to do to keep their job. your safe...

Posted: 12/3/2014 11:41:38 AM EDT

[#15]

You're probably right...but probably doesn't cut it for the paranoid. ;)

Posted: 12/5/2014 8:39:26 PM EDT

[#16]

Forms are still being approved. Submitted my first eform 10/23 for a PWS Diablo 7.75" SBR. Disapproved 12/2. Unfortunately I discovered you cannot revise a previous submission. They refunded my payment so I had to create the eform all over again and pay the $200 again. Then I resubmitted my forms on 12/2. Then I emailed the atf and included the control numbers acorn my disapproved form and my new one and asked that they process my second form as a correction of the first. Got approved 12/4. 45 days including Thanksgiving and 2 days lost correcting my own error. Much better than when it took 12 months to process my first suppressor last year, (although that was submitted as an individual before I learned of eform and trusts)

I have learned so much from all of you guys. Huge help for me as someone late to the game but catching up as fast as possible.

Posted: 12/6/2014 3:58:26 AM EDT

[#17]

Submitted 10/30 approved 12/4

Posted: 12/9/2014 2:23:07 AM EDT

[#18]

for those of you that are going across state line just what address are you using in that state?? the closes gas station or what??

Posted: 12/9/2014 2:35:04 AM EDT

[#19]

a friend's house. The (relatively) clear intent of the ATF rule is that you are crossing state lines to get help with the 'making' of your NFA item. Here is the relevant section of the NFA handbook:

The approval of the Form 1 application authorizes the applicant to make the firearm. The approval does
not authorize the applicant to convey or ship the firearm to another person to manufacture the NFA
firearm. If another person will manufacture the NFA firearm, the other person would be the maker and
the application must be submitted by that person. Subsequent to the making, the firearm could then be
transferred, subsequent to an approved Form 4 application, to the person who wanted the modification to
be made.

If the applicant on the Form 1 lacks the skill, ability, and/or equipment to manufacture the NFA firearm,
the applicant, after receipt of the approved Form 1, can have the firearm created or modified at a
premises other than shown on the approved Form 1 as long as the creation or modification was done
under the direct oversight of the applicant, thus having the applicant retain custody and control of the
firearm. If the location is outside the applicant’s State and the firearm being made is a short barreled
rifle, short barreled shotgun, destructive device, or an unserviceable machinegun which is being
reactivated, the applicant will also need to request permission to transport the firearm interstate as
required by 27 CFR 478.28.

View Quote

Therefore, though the manual is NOT law, it seems plausible that you could run into legal trouble if you put down a gas station and you never meet someone there or take it into a back room to 'make' the item. I'm not trained/licensed gunsmith, so naturally my "ability" is non-demonstrable and questionable. Therefore, I'm taking them to a friend's house in Portland so he can give me his opinion / sound advice about how I should 'make' my SBRs while I do it. Totally in-line with not just the law, but the handbook.

Now, cooould you just put the address of any old big business with a parking lot (home depot by the airport would be good) that is just across the border? Sure you could. Will you get in trouble for that? Highly unlikely. Probably not impossible though....we've all seen courts/juries come back with some MORONIC decisions, no? Better to not risk it by putting down a Starbucks as your destination...

Posted: 12/9/2014 11:03:30 AM EDT

[#20]

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Quoted:
for those of you that are going across state line just what address are you using in that state?? the closes gas station or what??

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Tri County Gun Club down in Sherwood, OR.

Posted: 12/9/2014 8:18:17 PM EDT

[#21]

now i get it good to go

Posted: 12/9/2014 9:51:43 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

[b]Quoted:
Therefore, though the manual is NOT law, it seems plausible that you could run into legal trouble if you put down a gas station and you never meet someone there or take it into a back room to 'make' the item. I'm not trained/licensed gunsmith, so naturally my "ability" is non-demonstrable and questionable. Therefore, I'm taking them to a friend's house in Portland so he can give me his opinion / sound advice about how I should 'make' my SBRs while I do it. Totally in-line with not just the law, but the handbook.

Now, cooould you just put the address of any old big business with a parking lot (home depot by the airport would be good) that is just across the border? Sure you could. Will you get in trouble for that? Highly unlikely. Probably not impossible though....we've all seen courts/juries come back with some MORONIC decisions, no? Better to not risk it by putting down a Starbucks as your destination...

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I read that it is possible for 3rd parties to Freedom of Information Act (or something similar) the NFA documents. I put the Tri Counties Gun Club because you can put any address in the destination state and I didn't want family/friend addresses to be exposed. The 5320.20 is valid for the entire state for the duration, no matter the address you put on the 5320.20.

Posted: 12/9/2014 10:46:56 PM EDT

[#23]

considering that you can get anyone's mailing address from in front of a PC about 60 seconds, is their availability via FOIA requests really all that scary? I mean, a couple hundred Russian/Chinese/Ukrainian hackers already have your name, address, payment card info, SSN etc on their HD....how big a threat is FOIA?

Not so sure on the 'entire state' thing either. Has this been tested in court? I admit I'm an NFA noob, and I understand the difficulty with enforcing such a thing, but lets just say that you live in Vancouver, WA and you file a 5320.20 to go to a specific shooting competition at a range outside of Portland....but then you get pulled over in Klamath Falls, OR. If there is literally no limit to where you can go, when you can go, and how long you can stay, then what's the point? Yeah, I know, what's the point of the entire law....but really, has this ever been tested in court? You're signing a fed document that says "i'm going to X with this gun", if they can prove that that's a lie, you'd think they could get you on perjury if nothing else...

Posted: 12/9/2014 11:27:18 PM EDT

[#24]

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Quoted:
considering that you can get anyone's mailing address from in front of a PC about 60 seconds, is their availability via FOIA requests really all that scary? I mean, a couple hundred Russian/Chinese/Ukrainian hackers already have your name, address, payment card info, SSN etc on their HD....how big a threat is FOIA?

Not so sure on the 'entire state' thing either. Has this been tested in court? I admit I'm an NFA noob, and I understand the difficulty with enforcing such a thing, but lets just say that you live in Vancouver, WA and you file a 5320.20 to go to a specific shooting competition at a range outside of Portland....but then you get pulled over in Klamath Falls, OR. If there is literally no limit to where you can go, when you can go, and how long you can stay, then what's the point? Yeah, I know, what's the point of the entire law....but really, has this ever been tested in court? You're signing a fed document that says "i'm going to X with this gun", if they can prove that that's a lie, you'd think they could get you on perjury if nothing else...

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Sure, you can get anyone's address using whitepages.com or something, but does whitepages.com include data such as "jekbrown's SBR might be here between 1 Dec 2014 and 30 November 2015"? <-- The 5320.20 does. Do you think your buddy would like the NY Times getting its hands on and publishing a bunch of 5320.20 forms showing his address as the destination for a bunch of SBRs?

Yes, you can put "other places in the state" on the 5320.20 and it will be approved, but that particular line isn't required. If you take it out of the state which includes the address; that's the whole interstate vs intrastate thing. You're in violation of interstate commerce if you're approved for taking it into Oregon and then try to take it into Nevada without having sent in a 5320.20 for Nevada.

There is a limit to the effective duration of the 5320.20, it is 1 year. You have to fill out a subsequent 5320.20 for, say 2016.

You also are not required to produce your NFA documents for anyone other than an ATF agent. Why would the ATF agent be pulling you over? If it is Oregon LEO, SBR are legal in Oregon and they can't demand your ATF papers, as far as I know.

Posted: 12/10/2014 12:01:27 AM EDT

[#25]

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Quoted:

Sure, you can get anyone's address using whitepages.com or something, but does whitepages.com include data such as "jekbrown's SBR might be here between 1 Dec 2014 and 30 November 2015"? <-- The 5320.20 does. Do you think your buddy would like the NY Times getting its hands on and publishing a bunch of 5320.20 forms showing his address as the destination for a bunch of SBRs?

Yes, you can put "other places in the state" on the 5320.20 and it will be approved, but that particular line isn't required. If you take it out of the state which includes the address; that's the whole interstate vs intrastate thing. You're in violation of interstate commerce if you're approved for taking it into Oregon and then try to take it into Nevada without having sent in a 5320.20 for Nevada.

There is a limit to the effective duration of the 5320.20, it is 1 year. You have to fill out a subsequent 5320.20 for, say 2016.

You also are not required to produce your NFA documents for anyone other than an ATF agent. Why would the ATF agent be pulling you over? If it is Oregon LEO, SBR are legal in Oregon and they can't demand your ATF papers, as far as I know.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
considering that you can get anyone's mailing address from in front of a PC about 60 seconds, is their availability via FOIA requests really all that scary? I mean, a couple hundred Russian/Chinese/Ukrainian hackers already have your name, address, payment card info, SSN etc on their HD....how big a threat is FOIA?

Not so sure on the 'entire state' thing either. Has this been tested in court? I admit I'm an NFA noob, and I understand the difficulty with enforcing such a thing, but lets just say that you live in Vancouver, WA and you file a 5320.20 to go to a specific shooting competition at a range outside of Portland....but then you get pulled over in Klamath Falls, OR. If there is literally no limit to where you can go, when you can go, and how long you can stay, then what's the point? Yeah, I know, what's the point of the entire law....but really, has this ever been tested in court? You're signing a fed document that says "i'm going to X with this gun", if they can prove that that's a lie, you'd think they could get you on perjury if nothing else...

Sure, you can get anyone's address using whitepages.com or something, but does whitepages.com include data such as "jekbrown's SBR might be here between 1 Dec 2014 and 30 November 2015"? <-- The 5320.20 does. Do you think your buddy would like the NY Times getting its hands on and publishing a bunch of 5320.20 forms showing his address as the destination for a bunch of SBRs?

Yes, you can put "other places in the state" on the 5320.20 and it will be approved, but that particular line isn't required. If you take it out of the state which includes the address; that's the whole interstate vs intrastate thing. You're in violation of interstate commerce if you're approved for taking it into Oregon and then try to take it into Nevada without having sent in a 5320.20 for Nevada.

There is a limit to the effective duration of the 5320.20, it is 1 year. You have to fill out a subsequent 5320.20 for, say 2016.

You also are not required to produce your NFA documents for anyone other than an ATF agent. Why would the ATF agent be pulling you over? If it is Oregon LEO, SBR are legal in Oregon and they can't demand your ATF papers, as far as I know.

If you're in not on private property I suspect you'd be relieved of your weapons if you refused to provide proof of taxes paid until the LE verifiied they were legal tax paid weapons. State laws vary but nearly every state if not every state has laws regarding NFA weapons and what would be a defense to being charged with a crime, proof of taxes paid for example.
I find it hard to believe that 5320.20 are available to the public in unredacted form withthe raw who/what/where/when data intact. Seing as how NFA weapons are regazrded as a tax issue, giving away info related to who specificly owns them and where they're going with them should be considered priviledged tax info.

Posted: 12/10/2014 1:43:50 AM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:
Yes, you can put "other places in the state" on the 5320.20 and it will be approved, but that particular line isn't required. If you take it out of the state which includes the address; that's the whole interstate vs intrastate thing. You're in violation of interstate commerce if you're approved for taking it into Oregon and then try to take it into Nevada without having sent in a 5320.20 for Nevada.

There is a limit to the effective duration of the 5320.20, it is 1 year. You have to fill out a subsequent 5320.20 for, say 2016.

View Quote

I don't disagree with you, I'm just wondering to what extent the "anywhere in the state" thing applies. Everyone on the www says absolutely no restrictions, do whatever the heck you want in the entire state during the entire time frame on the request. Is that really true though? Let's imagine the competition scenario I mentioned previously. What if the state can prove that you NEVER went to the competition you claimed you were going to, and instead you went somewhere else across the state? Who knows how they'd do that...but let's just say they can. Still ok to go anywhere in the state? At some point you have to be perjuring yourself with the form, right? I mean if it's demonstrably false information...what else can you lie about on the form? Can you put down a week long date range and stay for a month? There's got to be some line you can't cross. It may be moronic to put yourself in that situation, I'm just wondering.

Posted: 12/10/2014 2:25:24 AM EDT

[#27]

FOIA requests on other NFA forms are heavily redacted in my experience; I don't see why a 5320.20 would be any different, if they were released at all.

Posted: 12/10/2014 2:00:32 PM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:

If you're in not on private property I suspect you'd be relieved of your weapons if you refused to provide proof of taxes paid until the LE verifiied they were legal tax paid weapons. State laws vary but nearly every state if not every state has laws regarding NFA weapons and what would be a defense to being charged with a crime, proof of taxes paid for example.
I find it hard to believe that 5320.20 are available to the public in unredacted form withthe raw who/what/where/when data intact. Seing as how NFA weapons are regazrded as a tax issue, giving away info related to who specificly owns them and where they're going with them should be considered priviledged tax info.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
considering that you can get anyone's mailing address from in front of a PC about 60 seconds, is their availability via FOIA requests really all that scary? I mean, a couple hundred Russian/Chinese/Ukrainian hackers already have your name, address, payment card info, SSN etc on their HD....how big a threat is FOIA?

Not so sure on the 'entire state' thing either. Has this been tested in court? I admit I'm an NFA noob, and I understand the difficulty with enforcing such a thing, but lets just say that you live in Vancouver, WA and you file a 5320.20 to go to a specific shooting competition at a range outside of Portland....but then you get pulled over in Klamath Falls, OR. If there is literally no limit to where you can go, when you can go, and how long you can stay, then what's the point? Yeah, I know, what's the point of the entire law....but really, has this ever been tested in court? You're signing a fed document that says "i'm going to X with this gun", if they can prove that that's a lie, you'd think they could get you on perjury if nothing else...

Sure, you can get anyone's address using whitepages.com or something, but does whitepages.com include data such as "jekbrown's SBR might be here between 1 Dec 2014 and 30 November 2015"? <-- The 5320.20 does. Do you think your buddy would like the NY Times getting its hands on and publishing a bunch of 5320.20 forms showing his address as the destination for a bunch of SBRs?

Yes, you can put "other places in the state" on the 5320.20 and it will be approved, but that particular line isn't required. If you take it out of the state which includes the address; that's the whole interstate vs intrastate thing. You're in violation of interstate commerce if you're approved for taking it into Oregon and then try to take it into Nevada without having sent in a 5320.20 for Nevada.

There is a limit to the effective duration of the 5320.20, it is 1 year. You have to fill out a subsequent 5320.20 for, say 2016.

You also are not required to produce your NFA documents for anyone other than an ATF agent. Why would the ATF agent be pulling you over? If it is Oregon LEO, SBR are legal in Oregon and they can't demand your ATF papers, as far as I know.

If you're in not on private property I suspect you'd be relieved of your weapons if you refused to provide proof of taxes paid until the LE verifiied they were legal tax paid weapons. State laws vary but nearly every state if not every state has laws regarding NFA weapons and what would be a defense to being charged with a crime, proof of taxes paid for example.
I find it hard to believe that 5320.20 are available to the public in unredacted form withthe raw who/what/where/when data intact. Seing as how NFA weapons are regazrded as a tax issue, giving away info related to who specificly owns them and where they're going with them should be considered priviledged tax info.

No offense, but seeing how the IRS acted with regards to conservative groups just recently, I'll continue to be a government "good will" skeptic and keep using a non friend/family (but legit) address in other states.

Posted: 12/27/2014 5:08:39 PM EDT

[#29]

My form 1 was approved Dec 4, and I still haven't received the hard copy on the mail. How long does it usually take from approval to arrival of form in the mail?
Thanks

Posted: 12/27/2014 7:55:03 PM EDT

[#30]

How are all of you forming a trust? Lawyer? Online Kit? thanks

Posted: 12/27/2014 8:37:58 PM EDT

[#31]

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How are all of you forming a trust? Lawyer? Online Kit? thanks

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Went through the NW Gun Law Group years ago. Simple process, fill out the form, pay them, then they send you a copy that you get notarized.

NW Gun Law Group | Bronze Trust

Posted: 12/28/2014 2:14:10 AM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
My form 1 was approved Dec 4, and I still haven't received the hard copy on the mail. How long does it usually take from approval to arrival of form in the mail?
Thanks

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Efiled? You will never get a hard copy in the mail. You get an email with a PDF scan of the form with stamp, and a copy lives on the Efile system too. But you will never see the hard copy form with the real stamp.

Posted: 12/28/2014 6:29:21 PM EDT

[#33]

Yes I did Efile. This was my first Efile Form 1 and I have only submitted one Form 4 before and I got an actually form with a $200 paid "stamp".
I just went back and read through all 14 pages of this thread. On page 7 in particular, people are saying things like,

"Received my Stamped Form 1 today.

Timeline

Filed by mail -- 6/27
Pending -- 7/7
Approved -- 9/7
Received Stamped Form 1 -- 9/12"

And other people have indicated they received an actual stamped form in the mail as well.

I understand this to mean I will get an actual form in the mail with a physical stamp on it like I have in the past with my form 4, unless I am mistaken.

Thanks again

Posted: 12/28/2014 7:50:56 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
Yes I did Efile. This was my first Efile Form 1 and I have only submitted one Form 4 before and I got an actually form with a $200 paid "stamp".
I just went back and read through all 14 pages of this thread. On page 7 in particular, people are saying things like,

"Received my Stamped Form 1 today.

Timeline

Filed by mail -- 6/27
Pending -- 7/7
Approved -- 9/7
Received Stamped Form 1 -- 9/12"

And other people have indicated they received an actual stamped form in the mail as well.

I understand this to mean I will get an actual form in the mail with a physical stamp on it like I have in the past with my form 4, unless I am mistaken.

Thanks again

View Quote

You will never receive a form 1 in the mail if you e-filed. ONLY if you sent in a paper form 1.

If your e-form has been submitted and is approved, it's your job to go back to the E-form site OR into your e-mail and verify the form was correctly signed and stamped and does not have the accidental draft watermark or anything wrong, then print it out.

Posted: 12/28/2014 8:19:40 PM EDT

[#35]

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Quoted:
How are all of you forming a trust? Lawyer? Online Kit? thanks

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Free Living Trust template, Shoot me your email via PM and I'd be happy to pass it on. If you're adding other assets to your Trust besides NFA items, I'd suggest an attorney. I personally just use the template for my NFA items. 3 approved items, 4 pending, 6 Living Trusts created so far.

ETA: This offer is open to anyone who's interested, not just archad.

Posted: 12/29/2014 11:29:01 AM EDT

[#36]

Thanks for the clarification. I emailed Gary Schaible from the ATF and I got an email back this morning lsaying the exact same thing. (The electronic copy of Form 1 is my official form). Your help is much appreciated

Posted: 1/5/2015 2:16:04 PM EDT

[#37]

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I'm available most weekends if that helps.

-Trevor

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So, does anyone have an engraver recommendation on the west side of the mountains north of I90? Say, Bellevue or north of that?

Trevor at Jet City Laser in Auburn is worth the drive south.

Yeah man, I read the thread too, I'm sure he's a great guy, and it looks like great work; but Auburn is just too far south of Bellevue (where I work) or Kirkland (where I live) for me to just drop it by after work, if there is another option.
If that's it, because we live in an eternally blue state, then so be it, but it was worth asking the question.

I'm available most weekends if that helps.

-Trevor

Why I will be driving over from Spokane.

Posted: 1/5/2015 8:31:37 PM EDT

[#38]

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Why I will be driving over from Spokane.

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So, does anyone have an engraver recommendation on the west side of the mountains north of I90? Say, Bellevue or north of that?

Trevor at Jet City Laser in Auburn is worth the drive south.

Yeah man, I read the thread too, I'm sure he's a great guy, and it looks like great work; but Auburn is just too far south of Bellevue (where I work) or Kirkland (where I live) for me to just drop it by after work, if there is another option.
If that's it, because we live in an eternally blue state, then so be it, but it was worth asking the question.

I'm available most weekends if that helps.

-Trevor

Why I will be driving over from Spokane.

If it wasn't for I594 you could bring over a couple of mine and I'd give you some money for gas....

Posted: 1/7/2015 9:10:14 AM EDT

[#39]

Has there been any recent developments on converting a pistol to an SBR? Last time i checked, building your own required driving out of the state. Can a lower receiver that is complete be bought as an SBR?

Posted: 1/7/2015 6:05:00 PM EDT

[#40]

whether or not driving out of state is 'required' is completely unknown at this point. Some people are doing that, some people are just making their SBRs in WA once they get their stamp. No one has got in trouble for doing that, and no one (that counts) has stated whether or not it's illegal. There's a million opinions out there, but thus far it's completely up in the air. I have errored on the side of caution and am making my stuff in OR. Just safer that way, but plenty of people are doing otherwise. If at some point there is a court case or an AG 'finding' and making in WA is declared to be illegal as they interpret the SBR law, I sure wouldn't want to have a bunch of geocached/time-stamped pics of my SBR floating around cyberspace when there is no 5320.20 on file...

Posted: 1/7/2015 8:39:47 PM EDT

[#41]

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whether or not driving out of state is 'required' is completely unknown at this point. Some people are doing that, some people are just making their SBRs in WA once they get their stamp. No one has got in trouble for doing that, and no one (that counts) has stated whether or not it's illegal. There's a million opinions out there, but thus far it's completely up in the air. I have errored on the side of caution and am making my stuff in OR. Just safer that way, but plenty of people are doing otherwise. If at some point there is a court case or an AG 'finding' and making in WA is declared to be illegal as they interpret the SBR law, I sure wouldn't want to have a bunch of geocached/time-stamped pics of my SBR floating around cyberspace when there is no 5320.20 on file...

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If we really want to get down to brass tacks, you must see the irony in this method, as a 5320.20 granting you permission to transport an SBR out of state is basically concrete evidence a prosecutor can use to show that you had an SBR already and took it to OR since that is the form's entire and sole purpose. I honestly don't see how the form helps protect someone from a determined WA state prosecutor other than proving the prosecutor's case that you knowingly asked the ATF for permission to transport an existing SBR to OR. The claim that you didn't have an SBR yet is then in direct contradiction to the very form you submitted to the ATF asking for permission to transport it!

The (correct) logic you are using here, that it's not 'made' until it is assembled for the first time as defined by the ATF, is the same correct logic that ATF considers 'making' and 'manufacturing' two very different things. However if a prosecutor wants to ignore one train of logic regarding ATFs definition of 'make' versus 'manufacture' then they can just as easily ignore ATFs definition of when a SBR is first 'made' and in your case they can easily nail you to the cross with your 5320.20 paper trail declaring to the ATF that an SBR existing already for transport. Certainly just as, if not way more, damning than any jpeg pic posted to a forum would be.

To be clear though I'm in full agreement that the 'right' path is completely unknown. And whichever path someone takes that gives them the most peace of mind is about the best any of us can follow. I do believe there is precedent and safety in numbers so whatever path someone takes the more of us running around with form 1 SBRs the better!

On that note I will be very happy when we can get the 'manufacture' language cleaned up. The current legislation session is starting, did I miss a post about that effort getting kicked off?

Posted: 1/7/2015 10:01:24 PM EDT

[#42]

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Quoted:
Why I will be driving over from Spokane.

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Quoted:

Why I will be driving over from Spokane.

Just made the trip over from Spokane yesterday. Trevor did some magic, and has permission to post pics. One of the lowers looks surprisingly like my avatar.

Posted: 1/7/2015 10:47:41 PM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:If we really want to get down to brass tacks, you must see the irony in this method, as a 5320.20 granting you permission to transport an SBR out of state is basically concrete evidence a prosecutor can use to show that you had an SBR already and took it to OR since that is the form's entire and sole purpose.

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Quoted:If we really want to get down to brass tacks, you must see the irony in this method, as a 5320.20 granting you permission to transport an SBR out of state is basically concrete evidence a prosecutor can use to show that you had an SBR already and took it to OR since that is the form's entire and sole purpose.

I would agree with you if the ATF didn't lay out the process for initially making your SBR in another state in their own handbook. Yes, I recognize that the HB isn't law...but it is an admission by the ATF that you can cross state lines without actually having an SBR yet. If you're really crafty, and I am, there's no constructive intent worries either. Have a friend buy/hold the parts you need and then go to his place in OR to get his help in the "making". So, you never had an SBR when you crossed those state lines (all you have is permission to make one, some documents, and some parts)...but you do on the way back (once you add the fun parts).

Sure, with enough militancy on the part of rogue DAs they can try to take you down for anything (or nothing at all!)....my main objective is to decrease the odds as close to zero as possible.

Everyone is guessing at this point, and I'm guessing that making in OR is going to be none of WAs concern, legally or otherwise.

Section 6.4 excerpt:

If the applicant on the Form 1 lacks the skill, ability, and/or equipment to manufacture the NFA firearm,
the applicant, after receipt of the approved Form 1, can have the firearm created or modified at a
premises other than shown on the approved Form 1 as long as the creation or modification was done
under the direct oversight of the applicant, thus having the applicant retain custody and control of the
firearm. If the location is outside the applicant’s State and the firearm being made is a short barreled
rifle, short barreled shotgun, destructive device, or an unserviceable machinegun which is being
reactivated, the applicant will also need to request permission to transport the firearm interstate as
required by 27 CFR 478.28.

Posted: 1/7/2015 11:56:13 PM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:

If we really want to get down to brass tacks, you must see the irony in this method, as a 5320.20 granting you permission to transport an SBR out of state is basically concrete evidence a prosecutor can use to show that you had an SBR already and took it to OR since that is the form's entire and sole purpose. I honestly don't see how the form helps protect someone from a determined WA state prosecutor other than proving the prosecutor's case that you knowingly asked the ATF for permission to transport an existing SBR to OR. The claim that you didn't have an SBR yet is then in direct contradiction to the very form you submitted to the ATF asking for permission to transport it!

The (correct) logic you are using here, that it's not 'made' until it is assembled for the first time as defined by the ATF, is the same correct logic that ATF considers 'making' and 'manufacturing' two very different things. However if a prosecutor wants to ignore one train of logic regarding ATFs definition of 'make' versus 'manufacture' then they can just as easily ignore ATFs definition of when a SBR is first 'made' and in your case they can easily nail you to the cross with your 5320.20 paper trail declaring to the ATF that an SBR existing already for transport. Certainly just as, if not way more, damning than any jpeg pic posted to a forum would be.

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You need a 5320.20 to legally be in possesion of your WA address form1 sbr in any state other than WA, once it was complete. Filling out a 5320.20 is about getting back to WA legally once your finished having it assembled rather then leaving WA with a box of unassembled parts and an engraved receiver.

Posted: 1/8/2015 12:55:58 AM EDT

[#45]

that's prolly a more effective way of saying it...

Posted: 1/8/2015 4:39:55 PM EDT

[#46]

So I had my receiver engraved before reading all of this and now I am interested in heading south to assemble. Will my engraving (shows my WA address) be an issue? This is way more complicated than it should be......

Posted: 1/8/2015 5:22:23 PM EDT

[#47]

Don't allow all this "talk" to make you over think it, just assemble at home and be done.

Posted: 1/8/2015 5:46:59 PM EDT

[#48]

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Quoted:
Don't allow all this "talk" to make you over think it, just assemble at home and be done.

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Kinda what I'm thinking but I would still like to know if my engraving will be an issue if I decide to assemble in OR.

I was all gung ho about assembling but then you start reading.....and thinking......

Dangerous combination lol.

Posted: 1/9/2015 12:56:20 AM EDT

[#49]

As with most things in life, a person must do what they think is best for them. I'm sure some clowns on here are making MGs with no license, stamp, or anything else. To each their own, says I.

As far as the engraving goes, IIRC the letter of the law says that the city/state where the thing was made is what should be engraved. So it's be the oregon city/state. I know some people have called / emailed the ATF about this and have been told that the city/state that's on the form 1 should be used. Take that for what its worth. The good news is that having extra cities/states engraved on a lower is never illegal soooo....

Posted: 1/13/2015 3:15:40 AM EDT

[#50]

eFile Form 1 for SBR submitted on Dec 10th. Approved on Jan 12th. Not bad with the holidays in between, easily under 30 calendar days considering.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Are Form 1s being approved for WA? Yes. How do I know? I just got one back. (Page 7 of 8)

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