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Posted: 12/13/2014 6:25:08 PM EDT
Rizzo and others in the know with regard to hunting/target shooting laws in AZ....

I have a large patch of desert literally five minutes from my house, affording me 200+Y of range with numerous backstops.  Its a popular shooting spot, and even local cops shoot there from time to time when off duty.  However its state trust land, and there have been reports of SO/F&G showing up and throwing people off the property (and even issuing citations).  Threats of confiscating guns/ATVs/etc have apparently also been mentioned, and two guys i spoke to said their driver license numbers where taken down, and they were told "next time we'll cite you."

I have some fundamentals I still need to work on, and would also like to teach the kids some mil ranging and other basics.  I was wondering if I could target shoot on state trust land using an air rifle.  Not sure if it would be legal since its not a "real" firearm (or is it????) under the law.  Figured with .22LR prices being what they are, plus drive time/fees at the range, I could cover an air rifle and a nice scope for the cost of a few months' worth of range time + ammo (assuming I can even find .22LR, which, after numerous store visits yesterday, I cannot).

I dry fire a lot, but there is nothing that beats watching a projectile impact a target (or not) to help reinforce proper technique.  Plus with the kids' short attention spans (and hell, my own), I'd like to be able to actually shoot.

Bottom line -- target shooting with an air rifle on state trust land -- yay or nay?  

Thanks.


Link Posted: 12/13/2014 7:29:14 PM EDT
[#1]
These people would know the answer. To me, it's not worth getting cited or getting anything confiscated.  It is probably ok, but your best bet is to hear it from the horses mouth.

https://land.az.gov/
Link Posted: 12/13/2014 7:29:56 PM EDT
[#2]
The fundamental issue, in the view of the state, with regard to State Trust Land isn't shooting, its trespassing.  They aren't Feds who have a conservation/multiple use mission with the land.  The State Trust lands are strictly there to generate income for the state, eventually through sale.

They're not going to care what you are shooting on that land.  Unlike Federal land, its not yours.
Link Posted: 12/13/2014 7:37:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Learned this in Hunters Ed. from an actual case. Tell them you are sighting in to go hunting. Make sure you have a hunting license. Judge ruled in favor of the hunter getting cited saying sighting in is part of hunting.
Link Posted: 12/13/2014 8:26:16 PM EDT
[#4]
Well there is some BLM land near me, but the last time I cruised out there, access to it was restricted by a locked gate with a name/number to call for access. Is BLM land "mine?"  Can I hop the fence on foot (an honest question, not trying to talk about breaking any laws here) and they just want a courtesy call/etc?  Not sure how to handle something like that.
Link Posted: 12/15/2014 12:19:01 AM EDT
[#5]
An air rifle is a firearm in the state of Arizona.
Link Posted: 12/15/2014 1:59:28 AM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:
An air rifle is a firearm in the state of Arizona.
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Definitely didn't know that, thanks Rizzo.
Link Posted: 12/15/2014 2:15:23 AM EDT
[#7]
Ok - stay off of state trust property for ANY reason. BLM is cool, state trust is a no go for anything. Don't even touch it.
Link Posted: 12/15/2014 2:24:09 AM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
Well there is some BLM land near me, but the last time I cruised out there, access to it was restricted by a locked gate with a name/number to call for access. Is BLM land "mine?"  Can I hop the fence on foot (an honest question, not trying to talk about breaking any laws here) and they just want a courtesy call/etc?  Not sure how to handle something like that.
View Quote

Call your local BLM office and and speak with a Law Enforcement Ranger, not a park ranger etc. If you are cool with them, they will be with you. Make sure it is an LE you are talking to.They are a great resource of information.
Link Posted: 12/15/2014 9:36:33 AM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
Ok - stay off of state trust property for ANY reason. BLM is cool, state trust is a no go for anything. Don't even touch it.
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Good for hunting though.
Link Posted: 12/15/2014 9:40:54 AM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:
Ok - stay off of state trust property for ANY reason. BLM is cool, state trust is a no go for anything. Don't even touch it.
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Sort of.  A use permit will get you on it (don't cost much $15-$20/year).  Still can't target shoot with a firearm.  Might be able to shoot air rifles.  

http://azstateparks.com/ohv/permits.html#ohv21

https://land.az.gov/sites/default/files/documents/files/RecreationPermit.pdf
Link Posted: 12/15/2014 10:52:13 AM EDT
[#11]

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Quoted:
Good for hunting though.
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Quoted:

Ok - stay off of state trust property for ANY reason. BLM is cool, state trust is a no go for anything. Don't even touch it.




Good for hunting though.
This.  I hunt it all the time.   I target shoot there too but I try to get at least a few miles from anywhere people can hear it and only do that when im planning to shoot for only an hour or two.  Not legal but I have been doing it for a long time.  I dnt do it during dove season either. G&f. Are out and about the desert too much then.

 
Link Posted: 12/15/2014 9:36:32 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:
This.  I hunt it all the time.   I target shoot there too but I try to get at least a few miles from anywhere people can hear it and only do that when im planning to shoot for only an hour or two.  Not legal but I have been doing it for a long time.  I dnt do it during dove season either. G&f. Are out and about the desert too much then.  
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok - stay off of state trust property for ANY reason. BLM is cool, state trust is a no go for anything. Don't even touch it.


Good for hunting though.
This.  I hunt it all the time.   I target shoot there too but I try to get at least a few miles from anywhere people can hear it and only do that when im planning to shoot for only an hour or two.  Not legal but I have been doing it for a long time.  I dnt do it during dove season either. G&f. Are out and about the desert too much then.  

Take it from a BLM'r,  don't do state lands   .I am coming clean  .I am BLM. Need info, let me know. I know the laws.
Link Posted: 12/15/2014 10:30:50 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:

Take it from a BLM'r,  don't do state lands   .I am coming clean  .I am BLM. Need info, let me know. I know the laws.
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Quoted:
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Quoted:
Ok - stay off of state trust property for ANY reason. BLM is cool, state trust is a no go for anything. Don't even touch it.


Good for hunting though.
This.  I hunt it all the time.   I target shoot there too but I try to get at least a few miles from anywhere people can hear it and only do that when im planning to shoot for only an hour or two.  Not legal but I have been doing it for a long time.  I dnt do it during dove season either. G&f. Are out and about the desert too much then.  

Take it from a BLM'r,  don't do state lands   .I am coming clean  .I am BLM. Need info, let me know. I know the laws.


I need more info, then. I've hunted on state trust land for years and been told by AZGFD LEO that I was good to go on that, not to mention what the typical posted signs say.

And I already knew you were a dirty BLM'r - but I like you anyway.
Link Posted: 12/15/2014 11:07:54 PM EDT
[#14]
The ONLY issue i know of hunting in state trust is that out where I live (San Tan Valley) the local PCSO handles enforcement and depending on the deputy...some don't know the laws/regs that well. The last one i dealt with was a nice guy and cool...buuuuuuut i was sitting with him for about 40 minutes going back and forth over it. It was only that fast because I had cell connection and pulled up azgf online
Link Posted: 12/15/2014 11:41:47 PM EDT
[#15]

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Quoted:





Take it from a BLM'r,  don't do state lands   .I am coming clean  .I am BLM. Need info, let me know. I know the laws.
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Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:

Ok - stay off of state trust property for ANY reason. BLM is cool, state trust is a no go for anything. Don't even touch it.




Good for hunting though.
This.  I hunt it all the time.   I target shoot there too but I try to get at least a few miles from anywhere people can hear it and only do that when im planning to shoot for only an hour or two.  Not legal but I have been doing it for a long time.  I dnt do it during dove season either. G&f. Are out and about the desert too much then.  


Take it from a BLM'r,  don't do state lands   .I am coming clean  .I am BLM. Need info, let me know. I know the laws.
I dont target shoot out there hardly at all anymore.  Just shoot in the forrest near my cabin.    I will continue to hunt out there though. Run into azgfd occasionally during seasons or when im cruising closer to the main roads  and never had an issue.

 
Link Posted: 12/16/2014 9:27:54 AM EDT
[#16]
https://land.az.gov/faq/natural-resources-faq

Why do I need a permit to go on State Trust land for recreation purposes and how do I obtain a recreational permit?


HideAnswer
Arizona State Trust lands are not "public lands", as are Federal lands under the management of the U.S. Forest Service or the Bureau of Land Management. Federal "public lands" are managed for the benefit and use of the public, while State Trust lands are managed for the benefit of 14 Trust beneficiaries, which include the public schools and prisons. The Land Department's trust management responsibilities include requiring a permit or lease and charging a fee for use of Trust land. Exceptions to this requirement are licensed hunters and fishers, actively pursuing game or fish, in-season, and certain archaeological activities permitted by the Arizona State Museum.
A ‘Recreational Use Permit’ is temporary and revocable and does not permit commercial, competitive or group events. Lands leased for agriculture, mining, commercial, or military purposes are not open to recreational use. Other State Trust Lands may be closed to some or all recreational uses due to hazardous conditions, dust abatement, in coordination with the Arizona Game & Fish Department or based on certain State, County or Local laws or ordinances.
Recreational Permit allows the signatory limited privileges to use State Trust Land for some recreation. Recreation under this permit is limited to hiking, horseback riding, picnics, bicycling, photography, sightseeing, and bird watching. Camping is restricted to no more than 14 days per year. Off-Highway Vehicular travel on State Trust Land is not permitted without proper licensing.
The holder of an Arizona State Land Department (ASLD) Recreation Permit (Permittee) shall respect the land, the rights and improvements of other authorized users, and exercise appropriate discretion to protect native plants, cultural and historic sites and the environment. Permittee shall stay on existing and designated roads and trails. Permittee shall comply with all Federal, State, County, and Municipal laws and ordinances, while on State Trust Land.
The Permittee shall not use State Trust Land that is closed by the State Land Commissioner. The Permittee shall not: disrupt plant and wildlife on, blaze trails across, visit historic and prehistoric archeological sites on, or remove natural products from State Trust Land. The Permittee shall not cause any refuse or allow any other foreign objects to be deposited on State Trust Land. The Permittee shall not discharge a firearm on State Trust Land, except pursuant to lawful and licensed hunting.
Link Posted: 12/16/2014 11:22:24 AM EDT
[#17]
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Take it from a BLM'r,  don't do state lands   .I am coming clean  .I am BLM. Need info, let me know. I know the laws.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok - stay off of state trust property for ANY reason. BLM is cool, state trust is a no go for anything. Don't even touch it.


Good for hunting though.
This.  I hunt it all the time.   I target shoot there too but I try to get at least a few miles from anywhere people can hear it and only do that when im planning to shoot for only an hour or two.  Not legal but I have been doing it for a long time.  I dnt do it during dove season either. G&f. Are out and about the desert too much then.  

Take it from a BLM'r,  don't do state lands   .I am coming clean  .I am BLM. Need info, let me know. I know the laws.


From a statutory stand point, it is not legal to hunt on State Trust Lands.  So the enforcement becomes a bit political when you have a State Department managing wildlife and another State Department managing State Trust Lands.  Fortunately, our Republican leadership has brokered a still somewhat uneasy truce between the two Departments.  That could go bye bye if ever there was a Democrat leadership that was bent on stroking their Sierra Club, Center for Biodiversity cocks.  

I love that most of the free range Bison have decided to take up semi-permanent residency on the Grand Canyon Park and are tearing the shit out of the place.  Listening to the Forest Ranger spokes douche is laudable.  "We just don't have a plan to deal with these animals."  Wow, why don't you let Game and Fish issue permits to manage them, douche.  Fucking tree huggers make me sick.  

Link Posted: 12/16/2014 11:56:11 AM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:


From a statutory stand point, it is not legal to hunt on State Trust Lands. So the enforcement becomes a bit political when you have a State Department managing wildlife and another State Department managing State Trust Lands.  Fortunately, our Republican leadership has brokered a still somewhat uneasy truce between the two Departments.  That could go bye bye if ever there was a Democrat leadership that was bent on stroking their Sierra Club, Center for Biodiversity cocks.  

I love that most of the free range Bison have decided to take up semi-permanent residency on the Grand Canyon Park and are tearing the shit out of the place.  Listening to the Forest Ranger spokes douche is laudable.  "We just don't have a plan to deal with these animals."  Wow, why don't you let Game and Fish issue permits to manage them, douche.  Fucking tree huggers make me sick.  

View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok - stay off of state trust property for ANY reason. BLM is cool, state trust is a no go for anything. Don't even touch it.


Good for hunting though.
This.  I hunt it all the time.   I target shoot there too but I try to get at least a few miles from anywhere people can hear it and only do that when im planning to shoot for only an hour or two.  Not legal but I have been doing it for a long time.  I dnt do it during dove season either. G&f. Are out and about the desert too much then.  

Take it from a BLM'r,  don't do state lands   .I am coming clean  .I am BLM. Need info, let me know. I know the laws.


From a statutory stand point, it is not legal to hunt on State Trust Lands. So the enforcement becomes a bit political when you have a State Department managing wildlife and another State Department managing State Trust Lands.  Fortunately, our Republican leadership has brokered a still somewhat uneasy truce between the two Departments.  That could go bye bye if ever there was a Democrat leadership that was bent on stroking their Sierra Club, Center for Biodiversity cocks.  

I love that most of the free range Bison have decided to take up semi-permanent residency on the Grand Canyon Park and are tearing the shit out of the place.  Listening to the Forest Ranger spokes douche is laudable.  "We just don't have a plan to deal with these animals."  Wow, why don't you let Game and Fish issue permits to manage them, douche.  Fucking tree huggers make me sick.  



Link to 'Statutes' ?

The AZ Land Trust website directly contradicts this
Link Posted: 12/16/2014 12:13:35 PM EDT
[#19]
Everything is in Title 37 and you need a permit to do anything on State Trust land.  Hunting is not included as one of the uses included in the permits they sell on an annual basis.  As long as I've lived here, it's never been included in the permitted uses.  I did not say that you couldn't hunt on State Trust land.  It's just the enforcement of hunting is just a handshake agreement, there is nothing formal and it can be revoked at any moment.  If you ever take a hunter safety course, you may get an instructor who will explain the uneasy truce between the two departments.

It's kind of like Obama saying it's OK for States to allow marijuana while at the same time the DEA is raiding pot growers, sellers and distributors in those same States.
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 1:06:32 AM EDT
[#20]
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I need more info, then. I've hunted on state trust land for years and been told by AZGFD LEO that I was good to go on that, not to mention what the typical posted signs say.

And I already knew you were a dirty BLM'r - but I like you anyway.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok - stay off of state trust property for ANY reason. BLM is cool, state trust is a no go for anything. Don't even touch it.


Good for hunting though.
This.  I hunt it all the time.   I target shoot there too but I try to get at least a few miles from anywhere people can hear it and only do that when im planning to shoot for only an hour or two.  Not legal but I have been doing it for a long time.  I dnt do it during dove season either. G&f. Are out and about the desert too much then.  

Take it from a BLM'r,  don't do state lands   .I am coming clean  .I am BLM. Need info, let me know. I know the laws.


I need more info, then. I've hunted on state trust land for years and been told by AZGFD LEO that I was good to go on that, not to mention what the typical posted signs say.

And I already knew you were a dirty BLM'r - but I like you anyway.

Now that my cover is blown, I work for the BLM, but I am not "BLM"  Fun to "F" with them from the inside out.. Don't hate me - I am not one of "them". I will help anyone that needs info, etc. Not really in my realm work wise but I can hook you up.
The remark "dirty BLM'r", I will have you know I take at least two showers a day!
Oh, AZGFD LEO's are hit or miss. I work VERY closely with them.
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 2:56:54 AM EDT
[#21]
An air rifle is not a firearm.  You can legally shoot an air rifle in your backyard.

The definition of a firearm per Arizona law is:

"Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will expel, is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive. Firearm does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.



Link Posted: 12/17/2014 5:34:36 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
An air rifle is not a firearm.  You can legally shoot an air rifle in your backyard.

The definition of a firearm per Arizona law is:

"Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will expel, is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive.Firearm does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.



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Quoted:
An air rifle is not a firearm.  You can legally shoot an air rifle in your backyard.

The definition of a firearm per Arizona law is:

"Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will expel, is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive.Firearm does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.




Close....but unless is has changed...there is an inconsisteny you quote 13-3101 buuuuuuuuuut,
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/00105.htm
ARS-13-105
19. "Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of expanding gases, except that it does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.

AZCDL tried to fix this but Brewer vetoed it
http://www.azcdl.org/html/bill_tracking.html

Number: AZ [R] SB 1366 - Updated (Status 04/29/2014)
Sponsor: Murphy
Title: Technical Correction; Escape; Secure Facility (now: Firearm; Definition)
Abstract: Amending sections 133101, 13-3102 and 133107, Arizona Revised Statutes; relating to firearms.
Status: VETOED - 04/24/2014
Position: Support
Summary:
Strike all amendment added removing the original language in SB 1366 and substituting a modified version of SB 1064. New language clarifies in ARS 13-3101.A.4 that a firearm uses a burning propellant. ARS 13-3107 is amended to refer to ARS 13-3101 for the definition of an unlawful discharge of a firearm.

Comments:
4/24/14 - Vetoed by the Governor.
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 5:53:48 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Close....but unless is has changed...there is an inconsisteny you quote 13-3101 buuuuuuuuuut,
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/00105.htm
ARS-13-105
19. "Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of expanding gases, except that it does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.

AZCDL tried to fix this but Brewer vetoed it
http://www.azcdl.org/html/bill_tracking.html
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
An air rifle is not a firearm.  You can legally shoot an air rifle in your backyard.

The definition of a firearm per Arizona law is:

"Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will expel, is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive.Firearm does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.




Close....but unless is has changed...there is an inconsisteny you quote 13-3101 buuuuuuuuuut,
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/00105.htm
ARS-13-105
19. "Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of expanding gases, except that it does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.

AZCDL tried to fix this but Brewer vetoed it
http://www.azcdl.org/html/bill_tracking.html

Number: AZ [R] SB 1366 - Updated (Status 04/29/2014)
Sponsor: Murphy
Title: Technical Correction; Escape; Secure Facility (now: Firearm; Definition)
Abstract: Amending sections 133101, 13-3102 and 133107, Arizona Revised Statutes; relating to firearms.
Status: VETOED - 04/24/2014
Position: Support
Summary:
Strike all amendment added removing the original language in SB 1366 and substituting a modified version of SB 1064. New language clarifies in ARS 13-3101.A.4 that a firearm uses a burning propellant. ARS 13-3107 is amended to refer to ARS 13-3101 for the definition of an unlawful discharge of a firearm.

Comments:
4/24/14 - Vetoed by the Governor.





I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but does that mean spud guns are firearms?  A serious question.  Just trying to figure out how broadly this stroke paints....
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 6:44:54 PM EDT
[#24]
yes
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 7:27:44 PM EDT
[#25]
So backyard bbgun shooting ia illegal now?
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 7:52:09 PM EDT
[#26]
Airguns don't fire projectiles from an expanding gas.  An expanding gas starts at a low pressure and increases.  Airguns start at high pressure and decrease, there is no expansion.  Just because a gas moves from a low volume to a high volume, doesn't mean the gas is expanding.  The volume is expanding but not the gas.  It didn't need to be fixed.
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 8:16:51 PM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:
So backyard bbgun shooting ia illegal now?
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Some city ordnance prohibit it.  The County doesn't, I know Phoenix doesn't.
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 9:30:31 PM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:


Some city ordnance prohibit it.  The County doesn't, I know Phoenix doesn't.
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Quoted:
So backyard bbgun shooting ia illegal now?


Some city ordnance prohibit it.  The County doesn't, I know Phoenix doesn't.


In the City of Surprise it is illegal


Sec. 34-73. Restrictions on discharge, concealment and handling.

It is unlawful for any person within the limits of the city to fire or discharge:
(a) Any firearm, BB gun, air gun, pellet gun, dart gun, slingshot, gas-operated gun, cross bow, blow gun, or other similar gun or instrument; or
(b) Any arrow from a bow unless:
    (1) The discharge occurs on private property, with the consent of the owner, from a location no less than 125 feet from any property line, by an individual or under the supervision of an individual who is 18 years of age or older; or
    (2) The discharge is done by a government agent in furtherance of his or her official duties; or
    (3) The discharge is done pursuant to Title 13, Chapter 4, Arizona Revised Statute[s]; or
    (4) The discharge occurs on non-residential property as part of a properly supervised range. Properly supervised range means any non-residential location operated by or immediately supervised by a governmental agency, public
         or private school, or an adult who is a member of a company, group, or affiliated with a recognized archery shooting organization.
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 9:37:52 PM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:


Some city ordnance prohibit it.  The County doesn't, I know Phoenix doesn't.
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Quoted:
So backyard bbgun shooting ia illegal now?


Some city ordnance prohibit it.  The County doesn't, I know Phoenix doesn't.


The City of Phoenix has conditions on shooting a BB gun in the city limits



23-42 Discharging firearms, BB guns and slung shots prohibited; exceptions.

It shall be a misdemeanor for any person to negligently or purposely discharge any firearm, BB gun or slung shot within the City, except:

(a)    In necessary self defense.

(b)    A law enforcement officer in necessary performance of his duty.

(c)    For the purpose of target shooting or practice on a range operated by qualified personnel. Qualified personnel shall consist of either a certified firearms safety instructor, rifle or pistol marksmanship instructor certified by the National Rifle Association, or person designated by a rifle or pistol club, public or private school or military agency.

(d)    For the purpose of target shooting on private premises with air, spring or CO2 operated BB, pellet guns or slingshots, providing:

        (1)    The target area is enclosed in such manner and with materials that will stop the projectiles.

        (2)    Such target shooting is supervised by an adult at all times.

        (3)    Any safety precautions recommended by the Chief of Police are complied with.

(e)    In an area recommended as a hunting area by the Arizona Game and Fish Commission and approved by the Chief of Police. Such area must be posted as required by the Chief of Police and may be closed at any time by the Chief of Police or the Director of the Game Department.

(f)    Where a permit is issued by the Chief of Police.

(g)    In defense of property from damage by animals or birds, providing property owner obtains permit from Arizona Game Department or United States Fish and Wildlife Service, and the taking of such animals or birds is properly supervised by the Game Department or the Fish and Wildlife Service or a person designated by either of those agencies to assure the safety of surrounding property owners.

(Code 1962, § 27-17)

State law reference—Discharge of firearms, A.R.S. § 13-3107.
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 10:43:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Airguns are not firearms.  

Phoenix is good.  Misdemeanor if you're not shooting into a containment target and someone complains.  Ok to kill pigeons, too, with a hunting license and if you don't miss.

Chandler is good.  11-6. - Display or discharge of weapons other than firearms.

A. It shall be unlawful within the City limits for any person to display any air gun, gas operated gun, spring gun or any toy or weapon that is a replica or close in appearance to a firearm in such a manner that a reasonable person would feel threatened by such display.

B. It shall be unlawful within the City limits to discharge any air gun, "B-B" gun, gas-operated gun or spring gun or any instrument, toy or weapon commonly known as a "peashooter," "slingshot" or "beany" or any other instrument, including but not limited to bows and arrows, made for the purpose of throwing or projecting missiles of any kind by any means whatsoever, whether such instrument is called by any name set forth above or by any other name.

C. The prohibitions of this section shall not apply on private grounds or premises when, under the circumstances, such instrument can be fired, discharged or operated in such a manner as not to endanger or be likely to endanger any persons or property and also in such manner as to prevent the projectile from traversing any grounds or space outside the perimeter limits of such grounds or premises. There shall be a further exception when public or private grounds or premises are utilized for the purpose of an organized meet or shooting match involving the use of such weapons and when such meet or shooting match has been authorized by the owner or controller of such premises and written permission for same obtained from the Chief of Police.

D. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punishable in accordance with Chapter 1 of this Code
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 1:54:32 AM EDT
[#31]

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Quoted:


Airguns are not firearms.  



Phoenix is good.  Misdemeanor if you're not shooting into a containment target and someone complains.  Ok to kill pigeons, too, with a hunting license and if you don't miss.



Chandler is good.  11-6. - Display or discharge of weapons other than firearms.



A. It shall be unlawful within the City limits for any person to display any air gun, gas operated gun, spring gun or any toy or weapon that is a replica or close in appearance to a firearm in such a manner that a reasonable person would feel threatened by such display.



B. It shall be unlawful within the City limits to discharge any air gun, "B-B" gun, gas-operated gun or spring gun or any instrument, toy or weapon commonly known as a "peashooter," "slingshot" or "beany" or any other instrument, including but not limited to bows and arrows, made for the purpose of throwing or projecting missiles of any kind by any means whatsoever, whether such instrument is called by any name set forth above or by any other name.



C. The prohibitions of this section shall not apply on private grounds or premises when, under the circumstances, such instrument can be fired, discharged or operated in such a manner as not to endanger or be likely to endanger any persons or property and also in such manner as to prevent the projectile from traversing any grounds or space outside the perimeter limits of such grounds or premises. There shall be a further exception when public or private grounds or premises are utilized for the purpose of an organized meet or shooting match involving the use of such weapons and when such meet or shooting match has been authorized by the owner or controller of such premises and written permission for same obtained from the Chief of Police.



D. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punishable in accordance with Chapter 1 of this Code

View Quote
Yeah I know that but if the STATE considers it a firearm then waht?

 
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 2:00:23 AM EDT
[#32]

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Quoted:


Airguns don't fire projectiles from an expanding gas.  An expanding gas starts at a low pressure and increases.  Airguns start at high pressure and decrease, there is no expansion.  Just because a gas moves from a low volume to a high volume, doesn't mean the gas is expanding.  The volume is expanding but not the gas.  It didn't need to be fixed.
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I see. Nm

 
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 2:22:04 AM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:
Airguns don't fire projectiles from an expanding gas.  An expanding gas starts at a low pressure and increases.  Airguns start at high pressure and decrease, there is no expansion.  Just because a gas moves from a low volume to a high volume, doesn't mean the gas is expanding.  The volume is expanding but not the gas.  It didn't need to be fixed.
View Quote

Thanks for explaining what i SHOULD have noticed on my own...
but then WTF was senate bill 1366 about earlier? Just to be a pain in the dick over what the word is is?
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 3:25:32 AM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:

Thanks for explaining what i SHOULD have noticed on my own...
but then WTF was senate bill 1366 about earlier? Just to be a pain in the dick over what the word is is?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Airguns don't fire projectiles from an expanding gas.  An expanding gas starts at a low pressure and increases.  Airguns start at high pressure and decrease, there is no expansion.  Just because a gas moves from a low volume to a high volume, doesn't mean the gas is expanding.  The volume is expanding but not the gas.  It didn't need to be fixed.

Thanks for explaining what i SHOULD have noticed on my own...
but then WTF was senate bill 1366 about earlier? Just to be a pain in the dick over what the word is is?


Hard to know.  Legal definitions can be tricky and maybe there was some bad case law in another state that some worried would find it's way here.  Laws often times are written in a way to leave some level of catch all for certain processes that are trying to be controlled, sort of like "any other weapon".  It takes legislative intent at times to figure out what the catch all language means.  
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 12:50:59 PM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:


Hard to know.  Legal definitions can be tricky and maybe there was some bad case law in another state that some worried would find it's way here.  Laws often times are written in a way to leave some level of catch all for certain processes that are trying to be controlled, sort of like "any other weapon".  It takes legislative intent at times to figure out what the catch all language means.  
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Airguns don't fire projectiles from an expanding gas.  An expanding gas starts at a low pressure and increases.  Airguns start at high pressure and decrease, there is no expansion.  Just because a gas moves from a low volume to a high volume, doesn't mean the gas is expanding.  The volume is expanding but not the gas.  It didn't need to be fixed.

Thanks for explaining what i SHOULD have noticed on my own...
but then WTF was senate bill 1366 about earlier? Just to be a pain in the dick over what the word is is?


Hard to know.  Legal definitions can be tricky and maybe there was some bad case law in another state that some worried would find it's way here.  Laws often times are written in a way to leave some level of catch all for certain processes that are trying to be controlled, sort of like "any other weapon".  It takes legislative intent at times to figure out what the catch all language means.  


This is why that bill was so important. It puts an end to people getting in trouble for using air guns in city limits, shooting in their backyard, etc.
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 1:06:43 PM EDT
[#36]
How does changing the definition of "firearm" from the adjudicated language that's used throughout the country accomplish that?   It would not have changed any city ordnance that talks about BB guns and air rifles.  

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/51leg/2r/bills/sb1366s.pdf

http://azgovernor.gov/dms/upload/PR_042414_SB1366VetoLtr.pdf




Link Posted: 12/18/2014 2:34:34 PM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:
How does changing the definition of "firearm" from the adjudicated language that's used throughout the country accomplish that?   It would not have changed any city ordnance that talks about BB guns and air rifles.  

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/51leg/2r/bills/sb1366s.pdf

http://azgovernor.gov/dms/upload/PR_042414_SB1366VetoLtr.pdf


View Quote


When we clarify language used in laws such as these, it's one step closer to not finding yourself arguing the finer points of those laws with a police officer, and one step closer to changing or eliminating silly city ordinances.
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 5:16:00 PM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:


When we clarify language used in laws such as these, it's one step closer to not finding yourself arguing the finer points of those laws with a police officer, and one step closer to changing or eliminating silly city ordinances.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
How does changing the definition of "firearm" from the adjudicated language that's used throughout the country accomplish that?   It would not have changed any city ordnance that talks about BB guns and air rifles.  

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/51leg/2r/bills/sb1366s.pdf

http://azgovernor.gov/dms/upload/PR_042414_SB1366VetoLtr.pdf




When we clarify language used in laws such as these, it's one step closer to not finding yourself arguing the finer points of those laws with a police officer, and one step closer to changing or eliminating silly city ordinances.

My "hint" is call your Law Enforcement at your local BLM office. Talk to them - If you are cool, they can be great resource. Make friends with them.
Link Posted: 12/19/2014 10:50:43 PM EDT
[#39]


I keep this picture on my phone. I've shown it to two PCSO Deputies that wanted to argue about whether or not I was legal to hunt hunt where I was on Sate Trust land. They both basically said "Well, OK. Good luck."
Link Posted: 12/20/2014 1:43:39 AM EDT
[#40]
thx for the reminder, i need to get my state trust use permit in a couple weeks.
Link Posted: 12/20/2014 4:11:04 AM EDT
[#41]
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Quoted:

Close....but unless is has changed...there is an inconsisteny you quote 13-3101 buuuuuuuuuut,
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/00105.htm
ARS-13-105
19. "Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of expanding gases, except that it does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.

AZCDL tried to fix this but Brewer vetoed it
http://www.azcdl.org/html/bill_tracking.html
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Quoted:
Quoted:
An air rifle is not a firearm.  You can legally shoot an air rifle in your backyard.

The definition of a firearm per Arizona law is:

"Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will expel, is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive.Firearm does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.




Close....but unless is has changed...there is an inconsisteny you quote 13-3101 buuuuuuuuuut,
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/00105.htm
ARS-13-105
19. "Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of expanding gases, except that it does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.

AZCDL tried to fix this but Brewer vetoed it
http://www.azcdl.org/html/bill_tracking.html

Number: AZ [R] SB 1366 - Updated (Status 04/29/2014)
Sponsor: Murphy
Title: Technical Correction; Escape; Secure Facility (now: Firearm; Definition)
Abstract: Amending sections 133101, 13-3102 and 133107, Arizona Revised Statutes; relating to firearms.
Status: VETOED - 04/24/2014
Position: Support
Summary:
Strike all amendment added removing the original language in SB 1366 and substituting a modified version of SB 1064. New language clarifies in ARS 13-3101.A.4 that a firearm uses a burning propellant. ARS 13-3107 is amended to refer to ARS 13-3101 for the definition of an unlawful discharge of a firearm.

Comments:
4/24/14 - Vetoed by the Governor.


What I posted was taken directly from the current A.R.S. codes.  Current law says "explosive". Previously, the law read what you quoted and a bb gun was still not considered a firearm.
Link Posted: 12/20/2014 10:06:11 AM EDT
[#42]
Two different chapters.  The general provision includes anything that could expel a projectile from an expanding gas regardless from an explosive.  That would include things like sublimation canons (dry ice guns) or fuel guns, binary chemical guns or any number of things that would generate an expanding gas.

Chapter 1 GENERAL PROVISIONS
13-105. Definitions

In this title, unless the context otherwise requires:
19. "Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of expanding gases, except that it does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.

Chapter 31 WEAPONS AND EXPLOSIVES
13-3101. Definitions

3. "Explosive" means any dynamite, nitroglycerine, black powder, or other similar explosive material, including plastic explosives. Explosive does not include ammunition or ammunition components such as primers, percussion caps, smokeless powder, black powder and black powder substitutes used for hand loading purposes.

4. "Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will expel, is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive. Firearm does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.
Link Posted: 12/20/2014 11:28:35 AM EDT
[#43]
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Quoted:
Two different chapters.  The general provision includes anything that could expel a projectile from an expanding gas regardless from an explosive.  That would include things like sublimation canons (dry ice guns) or fuel guns, binary chemical guns or any number of things that would generate an expanding gas.

Chapter 1 GENERAL PROVISIONS
13-105. Definitions

In this title, unless the context otherwise requires:
19. "Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of expanding gases, except that it does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.

Chapter 31 WEAPONS AND EXPLOSIVES
13-3101. Definitions

3. "Explosive" means any dynamite, nitroglycerine, black powder, or other similar explosive material, including plastic explosives. Explosive does not include ammunition or ammunition components such as primers, percussion caps, smokeless powder, black powder and black powder substitutes used for hand loading purposes.

4. "Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will expel, is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive. Firearm does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.
View Quote


Ok, helpful hint. You start bringing this stuff up in the field, things will not go well for you. You are in the right, but 50 miles in the middle of BFE is not the place to mix it up with an LEO. Stay cool, get their name and card, and report them to their agency so they can be educated.  
 
Link Posted: 12/21/2014 12:35:27 PM EDT
[#44]
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Quoted:




I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but does that mean spud guns are firearms?  A serious question.  Just trying to figure out how broadly this stroke paints....
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Yup. Some friends and I were arrested in Scottsdale for discharging a firearm in city limits. This was back in the early 90s. We were shooting potato guns near where Dillon precision is. They ended up dropping the charges, but "educated" us that it was illegal.
Link Posted: 12/21/2014 6:58:50 PM EDT
[#45]
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Quoted:


Yup. Some friends and I were arrested in Scottsdale for discharging a firearm in city limits. This was back in the early 90s. We were shooting potato guns near where Dillon precision is. They ended up dropping the charges, but "educated" us that it was illegal.
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Quoted:
Quoted:




I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but does that mean spud guns are firearms?  A serious question.  Just trying to figure out how broadly this stroke paints....


Yup. Some friends and I were arrested in Scottsdale for discharging a firearm in city limits. This was back in the early 90s. We were shooting potato guns near where Dillon precision is. They ended up dropping the charges, but "educated" us that it was illegal.


Compressed air spud gun fine (probably not in Scottsdale though, city ord), fuel (methanol) spud gun is a firearm.  T-thirt launcher, like you see at sporting events, is not a firearm either.


Link Posted: 12/21/2014 9:51:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Compressed air spud gun fine (probably not in Scottsdale though, city ord), fuel (methanol) spud gun is a firearm.  T-thirt launcher, like you see at sporting events, is not a firearm either.


View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:




I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but does that mean spud guns are firearms?  A serious question.  Just trying to figure out how broadly this stroke paints....


Yup. Some friends and I were arrested in Scottsdale for discharging a firearm in city limits. This was back in the early 90s. We were shooting potato guns near where Dillon precision is. They ended up dropping the charges, but "educated" us that it was illegal.


Compressed air spud gun fine (probably not in Scottsdale though, city ord), fuel (methanol) spud gun is a firearm.  T-thirt launcher, like you see at sporting events, is not a firearm either.




We were using hairspray.
Link Posted: 12/21/2014 11:57:05 PM EDT
[#47]
So fun.  See even under the AzCDL change, hairspray would be a firearm under "burning propellant".   Hairspray is an expanding gas (assuming you put a match to it) so, yeah, that's a no no.
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