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Posted: 5/14/2015 4:59:14 AM EDT
just passing on what I just read. I ain't no NFA Trust expert nor attorney, BUT:
Mike Williamson, SurvivalBlog Editor At Large.
Also from Mike Williamson (actually his attorney): “According to the BATFE NFA guy at the NRA annual meeting (I’d like to buy a Z, Pat), a ridiculous number of NFA trusts, presumably built on a sample once shared on Arfcom, all have the same beneficiary. That dude is going to inherit a ridiculous amount of cash and NFA stuff one of these days (the BATFE believes the number is in the thousands for the guns alone). The BATFE rep also said that many store and manufacturer trusts, specifically [redacted company], are worthless and insufficient to meet the definition of a trust.” Mike says: “If you have a trust, check it carefully. It is well worth protecting your investment by consulting with a firearms attorney rather than another type of attorney, the Internet, or a store.” sure sounds like if you used a NFA Trust as a template that someone else drafted specifically for themselves, buried in all that mumbo-jumbo may be lingo that leaves your weapon to that "other guy's beneficiary" when you cash in your chips. words count for something, no? on the other hand, could this be a "false flag" from the good folks at BATFE's NFA Section to get people riled up? 
hard to figure; what do I know? 
all I know--if I had an NFA Trust, I'd look over each word real careful, paying close attention to where my stuff is and where it might go, and then maybe have an expert NFA Trust "legal eagle" give it the once-over. ...just sayin... |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 8:50:00 AM EDT
[#1]
Would not surprise me in the least. If you've surfed the General Class III forums long enough you'll find there are plenty of people that have no idea what a trust is and what the basic structure of a trust entails. It's just a document that gets them NFA goodies without fingerprints and CLEO signature and they ain't gonna pay no money for a piece of paper with words on it that they can get off da internet for free.
I've seen people making themselves the settlor and and sole beneficiary at the same time. I've seen unfunded trusts as well as trusts with inconsistent language through the document (the trust refers to the property assignment as "Exhibit A" throughout the body and then the actual property assignment is called "Schedule A"). EDIT: Correction of with/without |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 9:15:31 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would not surprise me in the least. If you've surfed the General Class III forums long enough you'll find there are plenty of people that have no idea what a trust is and what the basic structure of a trust entails. It's just a document that gets them NFA goodies with fingerprints and CLEO signature and they ain't gonna pay no money for a piece of paper with words on it that they can get off da internet for free. I've seen people making themselves the settlor and and sole beneficiary at the same time. I've seen unfunded trusts as well as trusts with inconsistent language through the document (the trust refers to the property assignment as "Exhibit A" throughout the body and then the actual property assignment is called "Schedule A"). Yep this is an issue. Setting up a trust really isn't that difficult, but there is more to it than filling out a template and hoping for the best. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 10:58:36 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
just passing on what I just read. I ain't no NFA Trust expert nor attorney, BUT: I like the "you better consult a firearms attorney" bit at the end. I've seen more questionable crap in trusts that customer's have brought in from "firearms" attorneys than anything else. There are certainly some good ones out there, but I really do think, based on the evidence I've seen, it is a scare tactic to drum up business. The usual unfunded trust, grantor/trustee/beneficiary being the same person, etc... common issues aside. I really wish I could find a good local attorney that sold an affordable trust for nfa purposes (notice I didn't say nfa trust) that I could refer people to. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 12:42:02 PM EDT
[#4]
I used the old Quicken template. Some say it's no good, but I had a Lawyer who worked with an ATF guy about trusts check mine. Good to go. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 2:21:57 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like the "you better consult a firearms attorney" bit at the end. I've seen more questionable crap in trusts that customer's have brought in from "firearms" attorneys than anything else. There are certainly some good ones out there, but I really do think, based on the evidence I've seen, it is a scare tactic to drum up business. The usual unfunded trust, grantor/trustee/beneficiary being the same person, etc... common issues aside. I really wish I could find a good local attorney that sold an affordable trust for nfa purposes (notice I didn't say nfa trust) that I could refer people to. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
just passing on what I just read. I ain't no NFA Trust expert nor attorney, BUT: I like the "you better consult a firearms attorney" bit at the end. I've seen more questionable crap in trusts that customer's have brought in from "firearms" attorneys than anything else. There are certainly some good ones out there, but I really do think, based on the evidence I've seen, it is a scare tactic to drum up business. The usual unfunded trust, grantor/trustee/beneficiary being the same person, etc... common issues aside. I really wish I could find a good local attorney that sold an affordable trust for nfa purposes (notice I didn't say nfa trust) that I could refer people to. Some of it is that. I've explained to people that they can get a trust, but it won't really help them. I also explained to one guy how the intestacy statute works and he decided against a will. Lots of people have a poor understanding of trust and estate law. I think a good portion of that is lawyers scaring people into having X or Y. 
Starting to work on that. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 2:26:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
just passing on what I just read. I ain't no NFA Trust expert nor attorney, BUT: Mike Williamson, SurvivalBlog Editor At Large.
Also from Mike Williamson (actually his attorney): “According to the BATFE NFA guy at the NRA annual meeting (I’d like to buy a Z, Pat), a ridiculous number of NFA trusts, presumably built on a sample once shared on Arfcom, all have the same beneficiary. That dude is going to inherit a ridiculous amount of cash and NFA stuff one of these days (the BATFE believes the number is in the thousands for the guns alone). The BATFE rep also said that many store and manufacturer trusts, specifically [redacted company], are worthless and insufficient to meet the definition of a trust.” Mike says: “If you have a trust, check it carefully. It is well worth protecting your investment by consulting with a firearms attorney rather than another type of attorney, the Internet, or a store.” sure sounds like if you used a NFA Trust as a template that someone else drafted specifically for themselves, buried in all that mumbo-jumbo may be lingo that leaves your weapon to that "other guy's beneficiary" when you cash in your chips. words count for something, no? on the other hand, could this be a "false flag" from the good folks at BATFE's NFA Section to get people riled up?
hard to figure; what do I know?
all I know--if I had an NFA Trust, I'd look over each word real careful, paying close attention to where my stuff is and where it might go, and then maybe have an expert NFA Trust "legal eagle" give it the once-over. ...just sayin... Yeah, the guy would have good standing to get it. He's in the document that YOU drafted and YOU signed. Your estate could try and argue it was a mistake and have the trust reformed or amended, but I can't guarantee you that would happen. The trust may be declared void. Who knows. A court won't want to mess with a trust if possible. I guarantee you a significant number of people have trusts for NFA items that have legally failed under their state laws for any number of reasons. I've been foreseeing lots of money to be made unfucking Quicken and LegalZoom wills, trusts, and docs for a while now. |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 2:35:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Misread.
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Posted: 5/14/2015 6:29:47 PM EDT
[#8]
I used Derek Debrosse here in Columbus for mine, not cheap, but great guy to work with and knows what he is talking about when it comes to the NFA game.
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Posted: 5/14/2015 7:18:19 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used Derek Debrosse here in Columbus for mine, not cheap, but great guy to work with and knows what he is talking about when it comes to the NFA game. Probably cheaper than fixing an issue with the trust after the fact though...  |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 7:41:18 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I used Derek Debrosse here in Columbus for mine, not cheap, but great guy to work with and knows what he is talking about when it comes to the NFA game. x2 |
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Posted: 5/14/2015 7:47:37 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Probably cheaper than fixing an issue with the trust after the fact though...
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I used Derek Debrosse here in Columbus for mine, not cheap, but great guy to work with and knows what he is talking about when it comes to the NFA game. Probably cheaper than fixing an issue with the trust after the fact though...
Yup, I sleep well at night. Piece of mind and a good attorney that will stand behind his work is priceless. Cheap insurance when you might be up against the Obama DOJ.
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Posted: 5/14/2015 7:51:49 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
x2 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I used Derek Debrosse here in Columbus for mine, not cheap, but great guy to work with and knows what he is talking about when it comes to the NFA game. x2 X3 for me |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 9:48:38 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
X3 for me Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I used Derek Debrosse here in Columbus for mine, not cheap, but great guy to work with and knows what he is talking about when it comes to the NFA game. x2 X3 for me x4 |
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Posted: 5/16/2015 10:28:58 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
x4 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I used Derek Debrosse here in Columbus for mine, not cheap, but great guy to work with and knows what he is talking about when it comes to the NFA game. x2 X3 for me x4 x5 |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 7:44:46 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: x5 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I used Derek Debrosse here in Columbus for mine, not cheap, but great guy to work with and knows what he is talking about when it comes to the NFA game. x2 X3 for me x4 x5 |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:01:50 PM EDT
[#16]
"The BATFE rep also said that many store and manufacturer trusts, specifically [redacted company], are worthless and insufficient to meet the definition of a trust.” "
if it was "worthless and insufficient to meet the definition of a trust."... why would the approve them?... plenty of people get trusts rejected for 1 reason or another... ATF sends a letters that says whats wrong and to fix it... happened to a buddy... you fix it, mail it back, and they approve... |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:04:28 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup, I sleep well at night. Piece of mind and a good attorney that will stand behind his work is priceless. Cheap insurance when you might be up against the Obama DOJ. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I used Derek Debrosse here in Columbus for mine, not cheap, but great guy to work with and knows what he is talking about when it comes to the NFA game. Probably cheaper than fixing an issue with the trust after the fact though... Yup, I sleep well at night. Piece of mind and a good attorney that will stand behind his work is priceless. Cheap insurance when you might be up against the Obama DOJ. so, you think he will represent you for free of there is a problem with it?...
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Posted: 5/18/2015 12:14:16 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: so, you think he will represent you for free of there is a problem with it?... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I used Derek Debrosse here in Columbus for mine, not cheap, but great guy to work with and knows what he is talking about when it comes to the NFA game. Probably cheaper than fixing an issue with the trust after the fact though... Yup, I sleep well at night. Piece of mind and a good attorney that will stand behind his work is priceless. Cheap insurance when you might be up against the Obama DOJ. so, you think he will represent you for free of there is a problem with it?... |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 9:15:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would not surprise me in the least. If you've surfed the General Class III forums long enough you'll find there are plenty of people that have no idea what a trust is and what the basic structure of a trust entails. It's just a document that gets them NFA goodies without fingerprints and CLEO signature and they ain't gonna pay no money for a piece of paper with words on it that they can get off da internet for free. I've seen people making themselves the settlor and and sole beneficiary at the same time. I've seen unfunded trusts as well as trusts with inconsistent language through the document (the trust refers to the property assignment as "Exhibit A" throughout the body and then the actual property assignment is called "Schedule A"). EDIT: Correction of with/without Yeah, a lot of people have no clue what theyre doing when it comes to NFA restricted items, they just want the cool toys but dont want to pay the price. Its an expensive hobby and if people cant afford to pay a few hundred dollars for a lawyer to put together a decent trust they probably shouldnt be getting into it. I cant fathom using a self made trust, especially when that piece of paper may be the one thing that keeps you from going to jail when some cop stops you at the range and starts asking questions about your suppressor, SBR, etc...plus its nice having a lawyer lined up who is an expert in firearm laws who you can turn to for any questions or god forbid you ever have to use lethal force to defend yourself. |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 9:27:15 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, a lot of people have no clue what theyre doing when it comes to NFA restricted items, they just want the cool toys but dont want to pay the price. Its an expensive hobby and if people cant afford to pay a few hundred dollars for a lawyer to put together a decent trust they probably shouldnt be getting into it. I cant fathom using a self made trust, especially when that piece of paper may be the one thing that keeps you from going to jail when some cop stops you at the range and starts asking questions about your suppressor, SBR, etc...plus its nice having a lawyer lined up who is an expert in firearm laws who you can turn to for any questions or god forbid you ever have to use lethal force to defend yourself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Would not surprise me in the least. If you've surfed the General Class III forums long enough you'll find there are plenty of people that have no idea what a trust is and what the basic structure of a trust entails. It's just a document that gets them NFA goodies without fingerprints and CLEO signature and they ain't gonna pay no money for a piece of paper with words on it that they can get off da internet for free. I've seen people making themselves the settlor and and sole beneficiary at the same time. I've seen unfunded trusts as well as trusts with inconsistent language through the document (the trust refers to the property assignment as "Exhibit A" throughout the body and then the actual property assignment is called "Schedule A"). EDIT: Correction of with/without Yeah, a lot of people have no clue what theyre doing when it comes to NFA restricted items, they just want the cool toys but dont want to pay the price. Its an expensive hobby and if people cant afford to pay a few hundred dollars for a lawyer to put together a decent trust they probably shouldnt be getting into it. I cant fathom using a self made trust, especially when that piece of paper may be the one thing that keeps you from going to jail when some cop stops you at the range and starts asking questions about your suppressor, SBR, etc...plus its nice having a lawyer lined up who is an expert in firearm laws who you can turn to for any questions or god forbid you ever have to use lethal force to defend yourself. It's just a trust. Very simple, and not much different than a will. What does a trust have to do with the cop who asks questions at the range? It's none of his business, and he certainly isn't going to determine the validity of a trust. If a police officer DID take a person to jail for lawful possession of an NFA item, that's wrongful arrest. A lawyer who specializes in estate law is probably not going to specialize in self-defense or other firearms cases. |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 9:30:10 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's just a trust. Very simple, and not much different than a will. What does it have to to with the cop who asks questions at the range? It's none of his business. A lawyer who specializes in estate law is probably not going to specialize in self-defense or other firearms cases. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Would not surprise me in the least. If you've surfed the General Class III forums long enough you'll find there are plenty of people that have no idea what a trust is and what the basic structure of a trust entails. It's just a document that gets them NFA goodies without fingerprints and CLEO signature and they ain't gonna pay no money for a piece of paper with words on it that they can get off da internet for free. I've seen people making themselves the settlor and and sole beneficiary at the same time. I've seen unfunded trusts as well as trusts with inconsistent language through the document (the trust refers to the property assignment as "Exhibit A" throughout the body and then the actual property assignment is called "Schedule A"). EDIT: Correction of with/without Yeah, a lot of people have no clue what theyre doing when it comes to NFA restricted items, they just want the cool toys but dont want to pay the price. Its an expensive hobby and if people cant afford to pay a few hundred dollars for a lawyer to put together a decent trust they probably shouldnt be getting into it. I cant fathom using a self made trust, especially when that piece of paper may be the one thing that keeps you from going to jail when some cop stops you at the range and starts asking questions about your suppressor, SBR, etc...plus its nice having a lawyer lined up who is an expert in firearm laws who you can turn to for any questions or god forbid you ever have to use lethal force to defend yourself. It's just a trust. Very simple, and not much different than a will. What does it have to to with the cop who asks questions at the range? It's none of his business. A lawyer who specializes in estate law is probably not going to specialize in self-defense or other firearms cases. Derek Debrosse is a fantastic firearms attorney which is who I believe he is speaking about. |
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Posted: 5/19/2015 8:43:54 AM EDT
[#22]
Exactly what nightfox stated! Your tax stamp with your name on it = approval from the atf! This along with a state issued photo identification is all I would ever provide to any local leo calling me out.
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Posted: 5/19/2015 4:34:10 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"The BATFE rep also said that many store and manufacturer trusts, specifically [redacted company], are worthless and insufficient to meet the definition of a trust.” " if it was "worthless and insufficient to meet the definition of a trust."... why would the approve them?... [span]plenty of people get trusts rejected for 1 reason or another... ATF sends a letters that says whats wrong and to fix it... happened to a buddy... you fix it, mail it back, and they approve... Because the ATF isn't reading it in detail, or knows the Trust Statutes to every single state. I guarantee you that there are defective/failed trusts in possession of NFA items. I guarantee there are lots of them that will start running into issues once divorces and death start occurring. |
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Posted: 5/19/2015 10:04:53 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because the ATF isn't reading it in detail, or knows the Trust Statutes to every single state. [span style='color: red;']I guarantee you that there are defective/failed trusts in possession of NFA items. I guarantee there are lots of them that will start running into issues once divorces and death start occurring. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
"The BATFE rep also said that many store and manufacturer trusts, specifically [redacted company], are worthless and insufficient to meet the definition of a trust.” " if it was "worthless and insufficient to meet the definition of a trust."... why would the approve them?... plenty of people get trusts rejected for 1 reason or another... ATF sends a letters that says whats wrong and to fix it... happened to a buddy... you fix it, mail it back, and they approve... Because the ATF isn't reading it in detail, or knows the Trust Statutes to every single state. [span style='color: red;']I guarantee you that there are defective/failed trusts in possession of NFA items. I guarantee there are lots of them that will start running into issues once divorces and death start occurring. Which is fine when youre dealing with SBRs or even suppressors. But when you start buying transferable machine guns worth more than most people cars its time to contact a lawyer and make sure everything is setup correctly. |
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