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Posted: 2/1/2006 4:58:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 5:00:40 PM EDT by bwiese]

Originally Posted By sully:
So where is the current situation exactly at? We have had several of our dealers selling lower receivers to California FFL's. All of a sudden on of our main dealers stopped selling them, stating that they do not want to be part of a law suit. So any updates on insite woud be appreciated.

Greg Sullivan "Sully"
Chief Instructor
SLR15 Rifles


The current situation is that over 5000 off-list lowers have been imported into CA and have been legally sold to end-users after 10day waiting period.

I am the guy who wrote the FAQ on

This goes into minute details of the law and the key Harrott decision. Bottom line: if it's not listed by the DOJ, it's legal to buy as a stripped lower.

DOJ has audited CA FFLs who have done bulk sales so they can find out the brands of lowers 'in commerce' and eventually declare them as assault weapons (triggering a mandatory registration period - something we want, for rather complex reasons, since after registration we will be able to build them up w/out fixed mags). DOJ agents have looked over the papers and walked out of shop while hundreds of lowers are present and being sold (DROSed + 4473'd) to buyers lined up outside the door.

DOJ phone staff tried to stop the flow by telling outside vendors that this was illegal and by ignoring questions about the key CA Supreme Court decision, Harrott v Kings County- while at the same time acknowledging to CA FFLs that this is indeed legal. Smaller, smarter FFLs outside CA realized this was BS and completely legal and act as intermediaries for manufacturers and recognized DOJ's illegal interference in lawful interstate commerce.

So, while Stag was intimidated via incorrect information (via desk-clerk/agent Dana McKinnon, apparently), intermediate dealer/distributors bought their whole inventory in December and we think that maybe 850-900 of their 960 December inventory was shipped to CA by end of December.

There are a couple of FFLs in CA that have sold 1000 legal off-list lowers each apparently. Plus there are prearranged group buys of off-list lowers - one guy I know has helped move 1000 lowers into folks hands without making a penny of profit (other than T-shirt sales) - call it 'humanitarian'.

Some gun stores in CA are trying to even carry a few brands as standard items on the shelf but they sell out.

Bottom line:

If they ain't listed in Calif Code of Regulation sec 979.11, they are legal to acquire and possess.
They are NOT assault weapons. The CA Supreme Court says so with a key ruling that is clear and easy to read.

Vendors outside of CA are protected even further:

12280. (a)(1) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives or lends any assault weapon or any 50BMG rifle, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for four, six, or eight years.

These off-list lowers can be built up into an operational rifle if and only if a nondetachable 10rd magazine is first affixed before a pistolgrip or teletstock is attached to the lower (and disassembly reverses this order). Many brands will likely be declared as assault weapons in a week or two and these will then have to be specially registered.

One or two cycles of this 'name game' may occur before legislation stops it. This won't last forever, just maybe another couple of months.

Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

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Posted: 11/20/2006 10:46:10 PM EDT
Information on OLLs and what has happened in the past year:
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Posted: 1/8/2007 8:48:59 AM EDT
Copied from CALGUNS:

We have a new bullet tip mag release that allows for attachable mag off-list builds:

Detachable magazine Simonov rifles:

.50 BMG options that aren't banned by California:

Loopholes that may allow ownership of previously banned Roberti-Roos firearms:

A way to build a SB-15 exempt assault-style pistol:

A list of AR/AK series firearms that can be made into non-Assault Weapons:

A Summary of AB-2728 and what it does and does not accomplish:

Also look forward to:

Hunt v. Brown, a case that is fighting the Attorney General on the grounds that the Assault Weapons laws are a mess and can't be easily enforced.

Parker v. District of Columbia, a case that could affect 2nd Amendment rights in the whole nation.

Thanks to xenophobe for the list
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Posted: 6/7/2007 2:42:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2009 2:16:54 PM EDT by Paul]
AR series Off List Lower (OLL) Options:</center id=center>

California Rifles - U-15 stock for OLL AR-15 receivers - considered a non-pistol grip or a non-thumbhole stock, therefore you are allowed to use detachable magazines (10, 20, 30 rounders)

MonsterMan Grips - considered a non-pistol grip, therefore you are allowed to use detachable magazines (10, 20, 30 rounders)

Mag-Lock (SAS) - OLL AR-15 Fixed Mag Kit

Sporting Conversion - AR-15 Range-Maglok Kit

Prince50 - OLL AR-15 Fixed Mag Kit

Bullet Button (BB) - Modified mag catch that releases a mag with the use of a .223 round. Insert tip of the bullet into modified catch to release the mag. The bullet is considered a "tool" per CA DOJ regulations.

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Posted: 1/15/2008 3:54:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2008 2:41:03 AM EDT by REDHORSE]
It's a semi-auto centerfire rifle ID flowchart to determine if a weapon is a legal or an illegal CA Assault Weapon.

Assault Weapons I.D. Flowchart (@ discussion thread

Flow chart I made: Version 1.0 D (updated 10/08/08)
CA AW Flowchart Ver 1.0 D - PDF file (PRINTABLE)

CA AW Flowchart Ver 1.0 D - HTML
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Posted: 12/31/2009 8:36:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2009 8:36:34 PM EDT by AR15fan]
The body armor prohibition listed on page one has been struck down by Case law.
Nothing in this post should be considered information posted in an official capacity. It is the authors personal opinion alone.
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Posted: 6/14/2010 10:39:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2014 12:02:30 AM EDT by Paul]
Some say that you can't own an AR-15 in California or own magazines more than 10 rounds. Wrong on both accounts. Though the efforts of some clever folk including inventors and lawyers there's more than a few ways to own the AR-15 in California.

Registered Assault Weapons - AR-15's weren't banned. Only the sale of certain "by-name" and then later "by-feature" rifles in a series of three laws. More AR-15 rifles were sold in California for the decades prior to the ban and tens of thousands of those rifles are legally registered with the state - pretty similar to full-auto weapons in other states. The sale of magazines with a capacity of greater than 10-rounds were also banned but the possession of existing magazines were allowed. Those magazines didn't require registration and can be repaired replacing any and all parts including the body legally.

Off-list-lowers (OLL) - these lowers avoid the Roberti-Roo's list of rifles which means that they now are able to be used to avoid the "by-feature" restrictions. My OLL is made by CMMG - not on the Roberti-Roo's list. The methods below all use an Off-List-Lower.

The MonsterMan Grip (MMG). The MMG avoids the "by-feature" qualification of a pistol grip by closing the section of the grip preventing the thumb from reaching around the grip. The legislation carefully defined what a pistol grip was and the MMG changes the pistol grip into one closer to the legal Springfield Armory M1A, the Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30, and the Browning BAR semi-automatic rifles. The rifle is then constructed without the other named prohibited features which allows the use of existing pre-2000 full capacity magazines. The looks are a little odd but in use it's perfectly acceptable and doesn't fundamentally change the feel of the rifle. Since I have a bunch of pre-2000 magazines this is my default configuration.

Here's a 10 round magazine. It you want a semi-automatic rifle you can buy as many 10-round magazines and use the MonsterMan Grip.

A full-size pre-ban magazine.

The use of either the MonsterMan Grip prevents one to put other features like a flash suppressor, forward pistol grip, or a collapsible stock on the rifle.

Prince 50 Kit - The Prince 50 kit was one of the first methods of locking the magazine in place avoiding the feature of a "detachable magazine" - note the prohibition is against detachable magazines. We'll come back and look at that again here in a bit. The Prince 50 once installed is used with a 10-round magazine. The kit replaces the magazine release button with one that has a threaded hole into which one - or optionally two - small hex screws are put into. Once the replacement magazine release is installed the longer screw goes in first bottoming out against the lower receiver.

The optional second screw can put put on top of the first locking it in place. A bit of Locktite can be used to hold the second one in place.

The kit is provided with a small hex driver used to lock the 10-round magazine in place.

Once locked in place I assembled the remaining portions of the rifle and tested it. To reload the magazine the rifle is "shotgunned" open. DO NOT USE THE HEX SCREW TO REMOVE THE MAGAZINE. If you loosen the screw you are creating a centerfire rifle with a detachable magazine at that point that does NOT need a tool to detach the magazine.

Often an extended rear take-down pin is installed allowing one to open the weapon for reloading more easily.

The Prince 50 allowed one to put other evil features onto the rifle as it changes the centerfire rifle with "detachable magazine" into one with a fixed magazine. If one leaves the state the provided hex tool removes the top hex screw and backs off the second far enough to allow the button to depress.

Bullet Button and Rad Lock are similar methods to allow for an attachable magazine. The law prohibits detachable magazines but not attachable ones. The use of a tool is required to remove the magazine once locked in place with either of these kits. The tip of a bullet is considered a tool so both allow for ones use.

The Rad Lock is slightly different than the Bullet Button in that it allows you to simply un-screw a central threaded portion to return the weapon to normal function.

Here's a close up of the tool and the part that turns to lock or unlock the magazine release.

To lock the magazine in place simply turn the tool in the slot clockwise until the Rad Lock bottoms out against the gasket. To return the magazine release to normal function simply rotate the slot counter-clockwise four complete turns and the gasket rises slightly.

The Bullet Button is slightly different in that the central locking portion doesn't sit as high as the Rad Lock but the opening in the button is larger so a wider variety of tools will work. With the Rad Lock I had to be firm with the tip of the bullet where with the Bullet Button the larger hole allowed for a quicker disconnect. A half a turn loose with the Rad Lock and the bullet tip worked well.

Using either of these two buttons allows one to use 10-round magazines such as the 10/20 pictured below.

The FreeLock Conversion Kit or the Bullet Button Wrench (below) will allow you to quickly unlock your Bullet Button equipped rifle for out-of-state use.

The use of either the Bullet Button or Rad Lock allows one to put other features like a flash suppressor, forward pistol grip, or a collapsible stock. DO NOT USE A MONSTERMAN GRIP, AND ANY MAGAZINE LOCKING DEVICE WITH A STANDARD CAPACITY MAGAZINE. because although it is legal to have a detachable magazine with the MonsterMan grip it is illegal to have a non-detachable magazine with the same pistol grip. The logic of this escapes me too.

This list is not all inclusive as there are other methods like the U15 stock and other magazine release locking/blocking devices.

None of these are CA DOJ approved but they are in use by thousands of folks.

And finally a visual flow-chart to help if you're still confused. (courtesy

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Posted: 10/31/2013 5:07:12 PM EDT
Can the assembled intelligence confirm my reading of the high capactiy "magazine kit" situation...

If the pistol in question has only been manufactured for the last couple of years and thus there are no pre-January 1, 2000, high capacity magazines in California, I CANNOT ship a "magazine kit" to California for that pistol.

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Posted: 3/23/2014 11:57:33 PM EDT

AB 809 (Stats. 2011, ch. 745) - Requires Collection and Retention of
Dealer’s Record of Sale (DROS) for Long Gun Transactions

• Beginning January 1, 2014, requires DROS information regarding the sale
or transfer of long guns (rifles and shotguns) to be collected, reported, and
retained in the same manner as handgun DROS information. (Pen. Code,
§§ 11106, 26905.)

AB 1527 (Stats. 2012, ch. 700) – Carrying Firearms in Public
• Allows authorized security guards and honorably retired peace officers to
possess a firearm in a school zone. (Bus. & Prof. Code, § 626.92.)
• Makes it a misdemeanor, subject to certain exceptions, to carry an
unloaded rifle/shotgun outside of a motor vehicle in an incorporated
city and would increase the punishment if the person also possesses
ammunition capable of being dischardged from the firearm and the
person is not in lawful possession of the firearm. (Pen. Code, § 26400.)
• Provides specified exemptions allowing the open carrying of an unloaded
handgun, including licensed hunters while training a hunting dog or while
going to or from that training. (Pen. Code, §§ 26366.5, 26390, 26391.)

AB 1559 (Stats. 2012, ch. 691) – DROS Fees
• Beginning January 1, 2014, only one Dealer’s Record of Sale (DROS) fee
will be charged for a single transaction (i.e., sale, lease, or transfer to one
person) on the same date for any number of firearms (handguns and long
guns). (Pen. Code, § 28240.)
• Adds the importation of short-barreled rifles/shotguns to list of activities
that may be considered good cause for issuance of a dangerous weapons
permit by the Department of Justice. (Pen. Code, § 33300.)

AB 1821 (Stats. 2012, ch. 117) – Security Guard Firearm
Qualification Cards

• Allows security guards to carry or use a firearm while on duty pending
receipt of their permanent firearm qualification card from the Bureau of
Security and Investigative Services if he or she has been approved and
carries a hard copy printout of the approval and a valid picture
identification. (Bus. & Prof. Code, § 7583.12.)

AB 2221 (Stats. 2012, ch. 697) – Public Records
• Adds prosecutors and public defenders to the list of persons whose
firearm license applications are not fully required to be disclosed as
public records. (Gov. Code, § 6254.)

SB 1315 (Stats. 2012, ch. 214) – Imitation Firearms in Los Angeles

• Allows Los Angeles County and cities in the county of Los Angeles to
enact ordinances and resolutions regarding spot marker guns. (Gov. Code,
§ 53071.5.)

SB 1327 (Stats. 2012, ch. 763) – Internet Web Site for Business
Licensing Information

• Requires the Governor to establish an Internet Web site to provide
licensing, permitting, and registration information necessary to start a
business. (Gov. Code, § 12019.5.)

SB 1367 (Stats. 2012, ch. 711) – Carrying a Handgun while Hunting
Deer with Bow and Arrow

• Allows authorized peace officers to carry a handgun while hunting deer
with bow and arrow but deer shall not be taken with the firearm. (Fish &
G. Code, § 4370.)

SB 1433 (Stats. 2012, ch. 765) – Protective Orders
• Requires the court-ordered record search on the proposed subject of a
protective order, as defined in Family Code section 6218, to include a
determination of whether the subject of the order has a registered firearm.

(Fam. Code, § 6306.)
• Requires peace officers serving a protective order, as defined in Family
Code section 6218, that indicates the respondent possesses weapons or
ammunition to request that the firearm be immediately surrendered.
(Fam. Code, § 6389.)
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Posted: 3/23/2014 11:59:42 PM EDT

AB 500 (Ammiano): Storage of Firearms in Homes with Prohibited Persons, Waiting Period Extension and Firearm Transfer Notifications
AB 500 requires any gun owner residing with a person who is prohibited from owning firearms under state or federal law to either: 1) keep the firearm within a locked container, locked gun safe, locked trunk, locked with a locking device, or disabled by a firearm safety device; or 2) carry the firearm on his or her person.
AB 500 also clarifies that the ten-day waiting period between the sale of a firearm and its transfer to the purchaser may be extended an additional 30 days if the Department of Justice (“DOJ”) is unable to determine the outcome of a mental health evaluation, unable to interpret arrest or criminal charge records, or unable to determine whether the purchaser is attempting to purchase a second handgun in a 30-day period in violation of California law, prior to the end of the waiting period.

AB 48 (Skinner): Strengthening Large Capacity Ammunition Magazine Ban
AB 48 prohibits the use of “conversion kits” to manufacture large capacity ammunition magazines. It also prohibits the purchase of large capacity ammunition magazines and tightens the definition of “manufacture” in the current law to clarify that manufacturing includes assembling the parts of a magazine.

SB 683 (Block): Firearm Safety Certificate
Under prior California law, “handgun safety certificates” issued by DOJ, which require the applicant to take and pass a written test on firearm safety, are required for the purchase of a handgun, but not for the purchase of a long gun. SB 683 expands the safety certificate requirement to apply to purchases of all firearms. This requirement does not apply to long guns owned by persons with valid hunting licenses.

SB 140 (Leno/Steinberg): Funding Enforcement of Armed Prohibited Persons System
SB 140 appropriates 24 million dollars to DOJ to address a backlog in its database for tracking persons prohibited from owning firearms. With more than 20,000 prohibited persons on the list and an additional 15 to 20 individuals added each day, neither DOJ nor local law enforcement had sufficient resources to address the existing backlog without this additional appropriation.

AB 1131 (Skinner): Mental Health Related Prohibitions
Prior law prohibited a person who communicates to a licensed psychotherapist a serious threat of physical violence against a reasonably identifiable victim or victims from possessing a firearm for six months following the psychotherapist’s reporting of the threat to local law enforcement. The bill changes this prohibition from six months to five years. AB 1131 also amends existing laws that require the reporting of mental health information to DOJ to clarify that these reports must made electronically.

SB 127 (Gaines): Reporting of Mental Health Threats
Prior law prohibited a person from possessing a firearm for a period of six months after communicating a serious threat of physical violence against a reasonably identifiable victim or victims to a licensed psychotherapist. SB 127 requires the licensed psychotherapist to report any such threat to local law enforcement within 24 hours in a manner prescribed by DOJ. The bill also requires the local law enforcement agency receiving the report to notify DOJ electronically, within 24 hours, in a manner prescribed by DOJ.

AB 231 (Ting & Gomez): Strengthening Child Access Prevention Law and Keeping Firearms from Prohibited People
In certain circumstances, California law imposes criminal liability on firearm owners who, through their negligence, enable children to access their weapons. Previously, that law only applied when the child carried the weapon off the premises or killed or injured someone. AB 231 expands that law to apply whenever a person negligently stores or leaves a loaded firearm on his or her premises in a location where the person knows, or reasonably should know, that a child is likely to gain access to the firearm, regardless of whether a child actually acquires control of the firearm.

SB 363 (Wright): Storage of Firearms in Homes with Prohibited Persons
SB 363 imposes criminal liability on gun owners who store their firearms in a place where they knew or reasonably should have known that a person prohibited from possessing guns under federal state law was likely to gain access to the firearm and the prohibited person does gain such access and injures or kills someone or carries the weapon into a public place.

AB 170 (Bradford): Revising Permits for Assault Weapons and 50 Caliber Rifles
Previous law required a person wishing to acquire an assault weapon or 50 caliber rifle to obtain a permit from DOJ. To ensure that any individual possessing these weapons has passed a background check, this bill changes the definition of “person” in the law so that it only includes individuals and not legal entities such as corporations or partnerships.

AB 539 (Pan): Prohibited Persons Firearm Storage with Dealers
This bill allows anyone who is prohibited from possessing a firearm to transfer any firearm in his or her possession to a licensed firearms dealer for storage during the duration of the prohibition.
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Posted: 8/30/2014 11:47:28 AM EDT
SB 808 "Ghost Guns" aka 80% receivers.

This bill requires any person who makes or assembles a firearm to obtain a unique serial number or other mark from the Department of Justice prior to making or assembling a firearm, and within one day of making or assembling the firearm, to engrave or permanently affix the serial number or other mark to the firearm. The bill would also prohibit the sale to transfer of such firearms, unless sold or transferred to a law enforcement agency. The fee is not to be greater than $14 and violation of the law is a misdemeanor.

Copy of the full law here.
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