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bwiese
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Posted: 2/1/2006 4:58:26 PM
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 5:00:40 PM by bwiese]

Originally Posted By sully:
So where is the current situation exactly at? We have had several of our dealers selling lower receivers to California FFL's. All of a sudden on of our main dealers stopped selling them, stating that they do not want to be part of a law suit. So any updates on insite woud be appreciated.

CY6
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
Chief Instructor
SLR15 Rifles
TheDefensiveEdge.com




Sully...

The current situation is that over 5000 off-list lowers have been imported into CA and have been legally sold to end-users after 10day waiting period.

I am the guy who wrote the FAQ on Calguns.net www.calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm

This goes into minute details of the law and the key Harrott decision. Bottom line: if it's not listed by the DOJ, it's legal to buy as a stripped lower.

DOJ has audited CA FFLs who have done bulk sales so they can find out the brands of lowers 'in commerce' and eventually declare them as assault weapons (triggering a mandatory registration period - something we want, for rather complex reasons, since after registration we will be able to build them up w/out fixed mags). DOJ agents have looked over the papers and walked out of shop while hundreds of lowers are present and being sold (DROSed + 4473'd) to buyers lined up outside the door.

DOJ phone staff tried to stop the flow by telling outside vendors that this was illegal and by ignoring questions about the key CA Supreme Court decision, Harrott v Kings County- while at the same time acknowledging to CA FFLs that this is indeed legal. Smaller, smarter FFLs outside CA realized this was BS and completely legal and act as intermediaries for manufacturers and recognized DOJ's illegal interference in lawful interstate commerce.

So, while Stag was intimidated via incorrect information (via desk-clerk/agent Dana McKinnon, apparently), intermediate dealer/distributors bought their whole inventory in December and we think that maybe 850-900 of their 960 December inventory was shipped to CA by end of December.

There are a couple of FFLs in CA that have sold 1000 legal off-list lowers each apparently. Plus there are prearranged group buys of off-list lowers - one guy I know has helped move 1000 lowers into folks hands without making a penny of profit (other than T-shirt sales) - call it 'humanitarian'.

Some gun stores in CA are trying to even carry a few brands as standard items on the shelf but they sell out.

Bottom line:

If they ain't listed in Calif Code of Regulation sec 979.11, they are legal to acquire and possess.
They are NOT assault weapons. The CA Supreme Court says so with a key ruling that is clear and easy to read.

Vendors outside of CA are protected even further:


12280. (a)(1) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives or lends any assault weapon or any 50BMG rifle, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for four, six, or eight years.


These off-list lowers can be built up into an operational rifle if and only if a nondetachable 10rd magazine is first affixed before a pistolgrip or teletstock is attached to the lower (and disassembly reverses this order). Many brands will likely be declared as assault weapons in a week or two and these will then have to be specially registered.

One or two cycles of this 'name game' may occur before legislation stops it. This won't last forever, just maybe another couple of months.



Bill Wiese
San Jose CA







blacklisted
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Posted: 11/20/2006 10:46:10 PM
Information on OLLs and what has happened in the past year:

thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/HistoryOLL
sandboxking
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Posted: 1/8/2007 8:48:59 AM
Copied from CALGUNS:

We have a new bullet tip mag release that allows for attachable mag off-list builds:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=45321

Detachable magazine Simonov rifles:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=45331

.50 BMG options that aren't banned by California:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=45332

Loopholes that may allow ownership of previously banned Roberti-Roos firearms:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=45333
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=45779

A way to build a SB-15 exempt assault-style pistol:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=45419

A list of AR/AK series firearms that can be made into non-Assault Weapons:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=34397

A Summary of AB-2728 and what it does and does not accomplish:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=45170

Also look forward to:

Hunt v. Brown, a case that is fighting the Attorney General on the grounds that the Assault Weapons laws are a mess and can't be easily enforced.

Parker v. District of Columbia, a case that could affect 2nd Amendment rights in the whole nation.

Thanks to xenophobe for the list
REDHORSE
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Posted: 6/7/2007 2:42:59 PM
[Last Edit: 1/4/2009 2:16:54 PM by Paul]
AR series Off List Lower (OLL) Options:</center id=center>

California Rifles - U-15 stock for OLL AR-15 receivers - considered a non-pistol grip or a non-thumbhole stock, therefore you are allowed to use detachable magazines (10, 20, 30 rounders)






MonsterMan Grips - considered a non-pistol grip, therefore you are allowed to use detachable magazines (10, 20, 30 rounders)





Mag-Lock (SAS) - OLL AR-15 Fixed Mag Kit


Sporting Conversion - AR-15 Range-Maglok Kit


Prince50 - OLL AR-15 Fixed Mag Kit



Bullet Button (BB) - Modified mag catch that releases a mag with the use of a .223 round. Insert tip of the bullet into modified catch to release the mag. The bullet is considered a "tool" per CA DOJ regulations.


REDHORSE
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Posted: 1/15/2008 3:54:34 PM
[Last Edit: 12/28/2008 2:41:03 AM by REDHORSE]
It's a semi-auto centerfire rifle ID flowchart to determine if a weapon is a legal or an illegal CA Assault Weapon.

Assault Weapons I.D. Flowchart (@ Calguns.net) discussion thread

Flow chart I made: Version 1.0 D (updated 10/08/08)
CA AW Flowchart Ver 1.0 D - PDF file (PRINTABLE)

CA AW Flowchart Ver 1.0 D - HTML
StevenH
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Posted: 12/27/2009 7:14:11 PM
Paul,
CPC 12020(a)(1) and CPC 626.10(a) have both been amended for 2010.
AR15fan
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Posted: 12/31/2009 8:36:08 PM
[Last Edit: 12/31/2009 8:36:34 PM by AR15fan]
The body armor prohibition listed on page one has been struck down by Case law.
Nothing in this post should be considered information posted in an official capacity. It is the authors personal opinion alone.
Paul
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Posted: 6/14/2010 10:39:14 PM
[Last Edit: 6/14/2010 10:42:23 PM by Paul]
Some say that you can't own an AR-15 in California or own magazines more than 10 rounds. Wrong on both accounts. Though the efforts of some clever folk including inventors and lawyers there's more than a few ways to own the AR-15 in California.

Registered Assault Weapons - AR-15's weren't banned. Only the sale of certain "by-name" and then later "by-feature" rifles in a series of three laws. More AR-15 rifles were sold in California for the decades prior to the ban and tens of thousands of those rifles are legally registered with the state - pretty similar to full-auto weapons in other states. The sale of magazines with a capacity of greater than 10-rounds were also banned but the possession of existing magazines were allowed. Those magazines didn't require registration and can be repaired replacing any and all parts including the body legally.

Off-list-lowers (OLL) - these lowers avoid the Roberti-Roo's list of rifles which means that they now are able to be used to avoid the "by-feature" restrictions. My OLL is made by CMMG - not on the Roberti-Roo's list. The methods below all use an Off-List-Lower.



The MonsterMan Grip (MMG). The MMG avoids the "by-feature" qualification of a pistol grip by closing the section of the grip preventing the thumb from reaching around the grip. The legislation carefully defined what a pistol grip was and the MMG changes the pistol grip into one closer to the legal Springfield Armory M1A, the Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30, and the Browning BAR semi-automatic rifles. The rifle is then constructed without the other named prohibited features which allows the use of existing pre-2000 full capacity magazines. The looks are a little odd but in use it's perfectly acceptable and doesn't fundamentally change the feel of the rifle. Since I have a bunch of pre-2000 magazines this is my default configuration.

Here's a 10 round magazine. It you want a semi-automatic rifle you can buy as many 10-round magazines and use the MonsterMan Grip.



A full-size pre-ban magazine.



The use of either the MonsterMan Grip prevents one to put other features like a flash suppressor, forward pistol grip, or a collapsible stock on the rifle.

Prince 50 Kit - The Prince 50 kit was one of the first methods of locking the magazine in place avoiding the feature of a "detachable magazine" - note the prohibition is against detachable magazines. We'll come back and look at that again here in a bit. The Prince 50 once installed is used with a 10-round magazine. The kit replaces the magazine release button with one that has a threaded hole into which one - or optionally two - small hex screws are put into. Once the replacement magazine release is installed the longer screw goes in first bottoming out against the lower receiver.



The optional second screw can put put on top of the first locking it in place. A bit of Locktite can be used to hold the second one in place.



The kit is provided with a small hex driver used to lock the 10-round magazine in place.



Once locked in place I assembled the remaining portions of the rifle and tested it. To reload the magazine the rifle is "shotgunned" open. DO NOT USE THE HEX SCREW TO REMOVE THE MAGAZINE. If you loosen the screw you are creating a centerfire rifle with a detachable magazine at that point that does NOT need a tool to detach the magazine.



Often an extended rear take-down pin is installed allowing one to open the weapon for reloading more easily.



The Prince 50 allowed one to put other evil features onto the rifle as it changes the centerfire rifle with "detachable magazine" into one with a fixed magazine. If one leaves the state the provided hex tool removes the top hex screw and backs off the second far enough to allow the button to depress.

Spring Retaining Block (SRB) - this is one of the most radical methods of allowing an OLL to be used. The SRB is a small bit of metal that screws in place of pistol grip holding the spring in place for the safety detent. The rifle is then able to use high-cap magazines but like the MMG no other named features can be used. One side benefit of the SRB is that lowers the vertical height of the rifle a bit making it easier to store in a cache tube.







AR15Plus "kit" this is one of the most spartan methods of locking the magazine in place. Retail on this "kit" is nearly $40. It consists of a 9 round magazine - yeah you read that right, nine rounds, and a washer and crown nut. This kit wasn't functional enough for me to bother to install it and it ended up in the trash. The magazine uses a plastic bottom plate that sticks out from the bottom of the receiver by a bit.



The "kit"



The magazine.



Bullet Button and Rad Lock are similar methods to allow for an attachable magazine. The law prohibits detachable magazines but not attachable ones. The use of a tool is required to remove the magazine once locked in place with either of these kits. The tip of a bullet is considered a tool so both allow for ones use.

The Rad Lock is slightly different than the Bullet Button in that it allows you to simply un-screw a central threaded portion to return the weapon to normal function.



Here's a close up of the tool and the part that turns to lock or unlock the magazine release.



To lock the magazine in place simply turn the tool in the slot clockwise until the Rad Lock bottoms out against the gasket. To return the magazine release to normal function simply rotate the slot counter-clockwise four complete turns and the gasket rises slightly.



The Bullet Button is slightly different in that the central locking portion doesn't sit as high as the Rad Lock but the opening in the button is larger so a wider variety of tools will work. With the Rad Lock I had to be firm with the tip of the bullet where with the Bullet Button the larger hole allowed for a quicker disconnect. A half a turn loose with the Rad Lock and the bullet tip worked well.



Using either of these two buttons allows one to use 10-round magazines such as the 10/20 pictured below.



The FreeLock Conversion Kit or the Bullet Button Wrench (below) will allow you to quickly unlock your Bullet Button equipped rifle for out-of-state use.



The use of either the Bullet Button or Rad Lock allows one to put other features like a flash suppressor, forward pistol grip, or a collapsible stock. DO NOT USE A MONSTERMAN GRIP, AND ANY MAGAZINE LOCKING DEVICE WITH A STANDARD CAPACITY MAGAZINE. because although it is legal to have a detachable magazine with the MonsterMan grip it is illegal to have a non-detachable magazine with the same pistol grip. The logic of this escapes me too.

This list is not all inclusive as there are other methods like the U15 stock and other magazine release locking/blocking devices.

None of these are CA DOJ approved but they are in use by thousands of folks.

And finally a visual flow-chart to help if you're still confused. (courtesy www.CalGuns.net)

Celebrating the Second Amendment One Fine Firearm at a Time

forker
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Posted: 12/30/2011 9:27:00 AM
After seeing all that, I'll just not get him a lower. Looks like too much b.s. he'd have to deal with in that state.
pbrsailor
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Posted: 1/5/2012 6:31:18 PM
[Last Edit: 1/5/2012 6:31:52 PM by pbrsailor]
There is a lot of good information posted here, but after reading this thread and the attached links I am still not sure what I can and cannot ship to California. I think it's a dirty rotten shame that you guys out on the West coast have to put up with all this nonsense.
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