Kind of long review (sorry):

I'm just home from the Kyle Defoor/Defoor Proformance Shooting, Scoped Rifle class. The class was at the Volusia County Gun and Hunt Club in DeLand, FL. I've been shooting longer range/precision since about 2003, but only on occasion. Most of the time I've been able to just wing it based on a few things I've picked up from friends and a couple classes.

But this class has been very helpful. If you don't already know about Kyle and his history with this type of gun, he's been shooting them (hi cap, mag fed, low to mid variable power scoped semi auto rifle) for a couple decades, maybe more. He's learned about and used them during his years in the military and continues to stay current and on top of this changing subsection of the industry since he continues to instruct on their use with the military and some open enrollment classes. Anyone who follows his Instagram page (@defoorproformanceshooting) will see he also uses this type of gun to hunt. I'd guess he's seen and probably used all of the different trends and generations of scopes, guns, ammo and suppressors since the 90s or so. His experience and advice while using the many different style reticles found in today's scope market is what I've found most useful. What to look for when choosing a reticle. How, when and where to hold on your reticle, what the different reference marks mean in relation to the drop of your bullet and the size of your target. In minutes, we watched him explain how to utilize even the most basic crosshair to the best of your ability.

I saw the usual problems with inexpensive gear and ammo. One shooter had what looked like a pretty decent rifle, but was shooting IMI 77gr "match" ammo. It grouped roughly 5" at 100 yards. The guy was at a loss and was wondering what was wrong with his gun. Kyle started looking at it and quickly started troubleshooting. He tried some known quality ammo and his groups immediately shrunk to about an inch. Later, while talking about this to others, I could only say that if you use something like Federal Match, Black Hills or Hornady Match ammo (what I saw most at class, especially Black Hills), it would be hard to believe a decent rifle would be shooting 5" groups. Use trusted and proven ammo.

Another guy had a very inexpensive, Weaver optic that was unable to be tightened in an ADM 1" scope mount. Kyle shimmed the rings with cardboard from an ammo box and said that would get him by for now. It did. He used this issue to talk about field expedient fixes and explained how something like tinfoil would have worked better than cardboard, how you could level your gun and scope using a water bottle, how you could use the corner of a building or even a tree to level your scope in a pinch. On the second day, someone mentioned that the guy shooting this gun saw the reticle rotate inside the scope. I did not see the scope and while it seemed to me like this set up was about to implode, it's worth mentioning that he was still able to make his hits at 500.

Another guy had a Leupold one piece scope mount, but it is their MK2 (entry level) option. I think if this shooter didn't ask questions about the problems he was having, the mount was so loose, the scope may have eventually completely fallen off the gun at some point. I'd have to guess that the main issue was improper or poor installation, but Kyle again took the opportunity to talk about what to look for in scope mounts and how to install them. The guys running good stuff didn't seem to fall victim to their gear.

This isn't to say only people with premium stuff were doing well. Only that I continue to find it hard to trust unknown or questionable products from unknown or questionable companies in a class or competition setting. I saw at least two or three guys using Leupold VX-R optics, one shooter had a Vortex Viper PST 1-4x which are all generally in the $500-$600 or less range. Each of them did fine from what I saw.

Everyone I saw had a bipod. Most were Harris, there were a couple of Atlas, one guy had a GripPod that he traded for a Harris on day two. Kyle explained how useful bipods were and showed us all several ways to use them non-traditionally as shooting aids. All the 5.56 shooters either had or wanted 20 round mags. They allowed you to get lower to the ground with a bipod. Lower was steadier. Picking the gun up in front to clear 30rd mags meant it was harder to steady the rear of the gun without something to help. I figured this would be the case before coming and took a couple 20rd mags out of storage for the class. I wish I brought more since I had an issue with one of them. I pretty much only used my 30rd mags for one drill and to hold ammo that I used to keep loading that one 20rd mag I had that worked.

There were a mix of guns in the class, including two 7.62x51 and one 5.45x39 gun. Kyle shot a BCM 16" 300blk rifle with KMR rail, harris bipod, USOptocs 1.8-10x scope (I think) in a Bobro mount with ALG ACT trigger. I only noticed one shooter having hard malfunctions at one point. I'm sorry to say I didn't see which guy or gun. I just heard them mortaring the gun to clear the malfunctions as I was shooting. Other than that the guns seem to be working well. One guy shot a Tavor with Leupold MK6 3-18x and a Geissele trigger. The gun shot through the whole class and made all its hits out to just over 500 yards. I thought that was great to see.
We didn't shoot further than 300 on the first day, but the info we gathered on the guns and ammo was critical to success on the second day, where we immediately started at 400. Once we went hot, I heard the first guy crack off the first round and heard the 400 yard steel ring. That would likely not have been possible without the work we put in on day 1.

We spent most of our time shooting at B/C zone steel. Many of the shooters, including myself, began trying to hit some of the smaller steel plates at 400 and 500 yards once we were hitting the B/C regularly. There was one 3" circle that I saw one guy hit very regularly using a Knights SR15 LPR, NightForce ATAC-R 4-16x and Black Hills 77gr OTM. Not all of us hit or even shot at that 3" circle at 400 and 500. I tried 6 or 7 times with only one hit. The guy I partnered up with was shooting an LWRC 14.7" IC-SPR with a Leupold VX-R Patrol 3-9x (I didn't notice the ammo) and was no less thrilled with his ability to hit a different smaller steel plate with nearly every shot.

Although the weather was great both days and all of us were happy we didn't see any of the rain that had been forecasted, there was noticeably more wind the second day. At times Kyle called out winds up to 10mph with suggested adjustments. He showed us how to look for wind and bullet trace. He talked about how to observe the things we were looking at and how to relay them to the people we were shooting with.

We had planned to shoot out to 600, and I think if we had, most everyone would have been relatively successful based on the high success rate at 500. But Kyle was not comfortable with the ranges backstop past 500. Most shooters I overheard seemed to be very happy with their rifles, ammo scopes and themselves at 525 (which is the furthest we shot).

As much as we learned about rifles, their barrels, triggers, scopes, mounts, reticles, binoculars, ammo and using all of the above, the class also included two discussion blocks you may not have expected at a scoped rifle class. First thing we did on day two was gather for a medical discussion and demonstrations, followed by a presentation and discussion about mindset. On the ride home from class the things we talked about during these two instructional blocks are some of the things I thought about most.

I don't know a lot (i.e. nothing) about medical kits or how to use anything in them. After having been to many, many classes in the last 15 years or so, I've accumulated a few medical supplies that were handed out at one class or another. I've generally kept them in my range bag. I figured, I didn't know how to use them, but they might be useful to someone who did if they were needed. As he began giving instruction, I quickly saw that there are only a few items he suggests having. I also quickly saw that the kit I had either didn't contain any of the few pieces he suggests, or, in the case of the tourniquet, a poor substitute. I found this to be an excellent addition to the class and I'm grateful for his decision to include it.

The mindset discussion was also very well done. Most of the instructors I have taken classes from have talked about mindset and many I have been to have given excellent examples which illustrate something that I imagine is pretty hard to actually teach. I remember many of them and remember them changing the way I saw or perceived things. This was different though. It was almost like a template which explains thoughts and actions, consequences of those actions or inactions. Kyle explained that he did not create this instruction on developing mindset on his own, crediting several others for participating.

This is the second class I've taken from Kyle Defoor. I'm already scheduled to take a third in 2016, and hope to continue taking them as long as I'm able. Although what we did in his pistol/rifle class I took in 2014 and the scoped rifle class I took this year were very different, they were also similar. While we didn't shoot a load of ammo in either, I found out more about the rounds I did shoot than in many other classes. He takes common occurrences and makes them into teachable moments for the whole class. I think his classes are really excellent for just about anyone. Both classes showed me how to greatly improve and refine basics. As soon as you think something is good enough, he will present you with a realistic and plausible situation that shows how good enough will fail you.

Find out if there are any Defoor Proformance Shooting classes in your area at www.kyledefoor.com. If you live in the Jacksonville, FL area, watch for upcoming classes on our Instagram page @gungalleryjax.


This was the gun I shot. MK12 Mod1 Clone. I bought this upper used from a friend with a different rail. I think it's a White Oak 18", rifle length 1/7 SPR contour barrel. It now has a 12" KAC FF RAS with KAC gas block. KAC flat top upper, PRI Gas Buster and KAC flip up sights. Leupold MK4 MR/T 2.5-8x32 optic in ARMS #22 rings. The lower is LMT with LMT Sopmod stock and Geissele SSA-E trigger. OpsInc 12th model suppressor. I used a Harris BRM-S bipod with and ARMS #32 mount and a Blue Force Gear Vickers padded sling. I shot Black Hills 77gr Tipped Match King ammo. When we shot for groups I was at just over an inch.


Kyle talks about properly pairing your gun and optic. This was a Daniel Defense upper with Geissele rail and US Optics 1-4x scope and B5 Bravo stock.


This was the Tavor scoped with a Leupold MK6 3-18x with Geissele trigger and Harris Bipod.


Kyle shooting from an improvised position at targets between 100 and 300. He used a pre production BCM 16" 300blk rifle with KMR and BCM GF Stock. USOptics 1.8-10x37 (I think) in Bobro mount. ALG ACT Trigger, Harris bipod and GemTech Te One suppressor


The 100-300 yard line we used on day one


Kyle fixing the gun that had the issue with it's scope


Talking about Standard Come Ups (SCU) of 556, 762x51 and 300blk


Talking about configuring your rifle


He also gave an excellent talk about binoculars. I had never really used a pair beofre the class and was glad to have had a pair to bring. They were very helpful

Good AAR, thanks for taking the time to share...

This is awesome! Thanks a ton for the writeup.

One thing I'd love to hear more about is his choice for 300 BO. I've seen on IG that he's been running it a lot over the last couple of years, but I always assumed that was more for close up work. Surprised to see that he's using it for the scoped distance class as well.

Did he provide any more insight on why he personally likes the round now for that role?

He talked about 300blk a lot. He liked that it hit hard, was very quiet with subsonics and a can. It punches through barriers and the short gun with a suppressor is still shorter than a standard M4. He had nothing but great things to say about it. He recognized that the drop it has at ranges is substantial, but he was still shooting it at 500.

Great write up and pics. I took his pistol/rifle class in St. Augustine in either 2013 or 2014 (I forget how long ago it was just now) and thought he was an excellent instructor. Would love to go to another one of his classes.

Great write-up. I need a firearms medical class as I know nothing except what was picked up
in general gun classes. Any Florida recommendation?

Kyle is now including a medical discussion in every class he teaches, it's about an hour and goes over the basics. We will have Kyle back to St. Augustine in February, 2016, but that class is also full. We are talking about bringing him back late in 2016 again,

People asked him the same question, could he suggest a class that focused on medical and he did not have any to suggest. He said the reason he was giving the medical brief in his classes is because he has seen some really bad and incorrect info being given. He said if you want a medical class, look for someone was or is a P.J. or an 18 Delta. He had nothing but excellent things to say about the work they did and would not recommend anyone else, at all.

Someone else suggested Dark Angel Medical, I am friendly with Kery Davis of Dark Angel and have heard great things about his class, but that is me, not Kyle. Kyle was unfamiliar with Dark Angel. They have classes in Brunswick, GA about every year. I think there is one coming up.

I take it nobody was using a .308? Curious if it would have been a good gun for this course. Maybe a carbine model like the ECC 16" with Mk 8 1-8.

It was a PJ or an 11 Delta - which is a Special Forces medic.

18D perhaps...

You are absolutely correct, 18D, stupid tiny keys with my big fat fingers...

I'll edit the original post to indicate 18D. Thank you. He said if you take a medical class, get one from a PJ or 18D. That's all.

Yes. The review indicates two 762x51 guns were there. One was an Armalite AR10 Tactical (one of their newer configurations), the other a KAC ACC.

Sorry, my bad, I think I looked at 7.62 and thought it was x39 probably because I was thinking more carbine classes and I was just ready about 300 blackout. My goof!

How did they do? Did they have any advantage over the 5.56 setups people were running? I know you weren't shooting past 500, but even out to there was there any advantage, like say when it was windy, etc…?

Additionally, how was Kyle teaching for holds vs. dialing in? Was it dial in for distance, hold for wind? Or something else? I know you mentioned people with the more intricate modern reticles seemed to do better, is that because they were just holding off and using their reticle for everything making them a bit faster?

Sorry for all the questions!

Probably not that big of a deal but your post now says 18 Bravo - which is the MOS of a Special Forces Weapons Seargent. Delta/ D is the Medic.

At this class I don't feel the 308 held any advantage. Except, maybe you were able to see the steel move more upon impact.

We were shown how to hit by dialing and holding for elevation. Kyle mentioned he always holds for wind.

Once he showed me how to translate mil values to MOA, I was fine. It took me a moment longer to do the math in my head, but I did not necessarily feel at a disadvantage. It did require an extra step and had I made a mistake it would have caused me to miss. Mil reticles and dials are just easier and require no additional translation when everyone is talking mils. A horus reticle makes it even easier since there are more marks to reference and use to hold.

It really sucks and is easy to make mistakes when you have no idea what you're talking about. Thanks, I fixed it.

im sorry but the rifle pointing across the benches is just too much really ...

Meh, he cleared the rifle, cleared the line, had everyone stand to the side and behind. No one else was on the range but us. But I get it, some people won't even walk down range when cleared guns with no one near them are pointed down range.

That was a great write up, thanks for posting it.

Neil - very informative write up!  How much was the class and when will he teach it again in Florida?

http://www.insightstraining.com/view_course.asp?courseID=11

http://www.insightstraining.com/view_course.asp?courseID=264

We have him back in St. Augustine for the same class, but I'm sorry to say that class is now sold out too. Because this class has been selling out so fast, we are talking about having him again later in 2016 for the same class, but that is still just tentative.

Tag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vPCqMo9TCg&sns=em

Just saw this video where Kyle talks about his Mindset discussion. This is a 5 minute version. Go to a class. It's much more involved.

OP, can you give a summary on what he had to say about binoculars?  Am researching a pair & would be interested to hear what he spoke about regarding recommendations, as to objective size, magnification, & what the primary uses of binoculars are for.  Was he speaking about looking at targets, ranging, hunting uses, etc.?

Thank you.

That's great stuff OP, thanks.



In your opinion, do you think this would be a good first carbine/rifle class for someone?



My goal for 2016 is to attend at least one carbine class and one handgun class.



Also, thanks for going over the different brands of ammo that were used.



I was considering buying 500 rounds of the IMI 77gr OTM ammo, but I think I'll save a little more and go with Black Hills.

I would seek a more fundamentals based class if you are looking for your first carbine/rifle class.  Especially if you have no formal training on the rifle at all.

Okay cool, thanks. That's precisely what I was wanting to know.



I want to take an appropriate course for my skill level.



 

The answer always depends on you and what type of shooting you do or want to do. If you hunt with your AR, and/or primarily shoot from a supported position at targets which are 100 yards or further, with a rifle that has a magnified optic, this would be a much better class than most of the carbine classes I have taken. There was one guy at the class who traveled all the way from TX to be there. He said his primary reason for taking the class was to become a better hunter with his scoped AR (he was the guy shooting the 16" supressed 6.8spc rifle with the Vortex 1-4x).

Most other carbine classes have you shooting from prone to zero, but aside from that, you're usually shooting at targets which are (mostly) 25 yards and closer while (mostly) standing or moving. If this is the type of shooting you do or would like to, a standard carbine class would be better. Like I said, I think the answer depends on you, the type of shooting you do, and the gun you've set up too do that type of shooting.

I'm not saying don't get the IMI. Maybe it will shoot great from your rifle. I probably just wouldn't order more than a box or two until you knew.

He was strongly recommending a new company called Maven binoculars (mavenbuilt.com). B3 is the model he said he was getting. He did not yet have his new pair but said they're the best he's used and he's used pretty much everything. I follow his Instagram page and see that he has them now. He talked about porro and roof prism design binoculars. Porro prism are the style where the ocular lenses are offset from the objective lenses. These have the best clarity and view but are larger and less durable. Roof prism design binoculars have the straight tubes which connect the two lenses. These can be very compact and very durable, but the way the light is refracted through the lenses is not as clear.

He talked about how your eyes see movements before colors and and colors before shapes. He talked about what to look for in a landscape to find something that was out of place, for example, how few things in nature have 90 degree angles. He talked about how to best describe things quickly and efficiently to someone you were with.

I was using a pair of Leupold binoculars. They're something like a $400 or $500 pair that I got for a pretty good deal a year ago in anticipation of this class. They were of medium size and the view was good. One guy asked to borrow mine at the end of class and commented they were a lot nicer than the inexpensive pair he had. I'm sure a few of the guys who are really serious about this had much nicer ones than mine. Kyle said that the classic Steiner military binoculars with the rubber armor that everyone has seen were a fantastic set. He had a small set of Swavorski binos that were tiny. Like the size of your wallet tiny, but I think they were still 10x. He talked about how he is a big proponent of getting the best, smallest, and lightest of things. Another guy had a set of modern Steiner binoculars that he commented on very favorably. They were apparently extremely nice. I did not get a chance to see them very well.

Kyle said he's using his binoculars all the time to search. He showed us how to set up the strap so that when you put them down they could fall in the area of your arm pit which would both get them out of the way and protect them.

Hope some of that was helpful and that I'm remembering correctly.

Thanks for the reply!



 

OP, thank you for your kindness in writing the detailed reply above.  I have heard good things about the Maven glass on some of the optics forums I have been on.  Did he make recommendations on objective size & magnification choices?  Looks like that Maven B3 is an 8x30, so similar to the choice I have made in an 8x32, as the 8x42 cost you about another 9-10 ounces in weight (18-19 ounces for 30-32mm vs. 27-29 ounces for the 42mm binos).

here are a couple links w/ many pics, where folks review some Maven binocs of various sizes.

8x30 B3:
http://www.opticstalk.com/maven-b3-8x30-review_topic41413.html

9x45 B2:
http://www.opticstalk.com/maven-9x45-binocular-review_topic41410.html

thanks again, OP.  your initial post was excellent as well, among the best i have read on ARFCOM since joining.

With all the many, many thousands of posts on the site, thank you very much for your compliments. I do not recall him making specific suggestions about magnification or objective lens size that I can recall. Only that he was getting the B3s.

Hope you get a chance to take a class from him. He is very open to questions and is generally very generous with his answers.