The other thread was closed... Seemed because of spam, so I'll ask here.

It seems to me that a cop running a serial number of a weapon during a stop would be an illegal search. Especially if the officer was informed of the firearm. For example, if I am pulled over and present the cop both my license and CWP/CFL and when he asks if I have a weapon I honestly answer. The officer wants to disarm me.... OK fine. But they then want to run the serial number. They claim to see if the weapon was stolen......

OK, lets not distract from the question I am asking by debating if offering the CWP/CFL is a good idea.

The police claim they want to see if the firearm is stolen.... Isn't this really just a fishing expedition ala Arizona v. Hicks? Pulling me over for whatever reason (speeding/light out...etc) would be legal. Taking the weapon from me for "officer safety" - Sure, but I submit that a weapon left alone is the safest of all. But running the serial number sure as hell seems like a violation of my 4th amendment rights.  The officer could easily, remove the weapon from me an NOT run the serial number.

And considering that I VOLUNTEERED the fact I was armed, and that I HAD a CWP/CFL, it seems that they can't really claim I was acting like the weapon was stolen.

So under what justification can an officer legally search without consent my private property without an reason to suspect that the item was stolen?

You could make an argument that if I had tried to hide the fact I had a weapon, that he might consider it stolen - But in the scenario presented above no attempt was made to hide the weapon.
You could claim that an officer once having taken possession of the weapon can't just hand it back because I might be a felon - I find this crap and lets not forget that in this scenario the officer was presented with a CWP/CFL and that running the serial number of the weapon does not prove I am not a felon.

It seems that the stance is that if you have a weapon, then it might be stolen. But we would not accept this stance for any other property. For example running the serial number of my watch just to see if it was stolen, or running the serial number of iPhone just to make sure it was not stolen.... So why is it considered OK when we are legally carrying a firearm to run the serial number.

That being said, this has never happened to me.... I do normally inform the officer and so far the officer has been great and there has never been an issue..... This is mainly a thought exercise, but I think I would try to bring a lawsuit if a cop who pulled me over and after I informed them of my CWP/CFL and informed him I was armed the officer just assumed that the weapon was stolen..... They would not be allowed to run my iPhone in this situation, so why do they run a weapons serial number?

If the serial number can be viewed by the officer without having to manipulate the firearm, such as opening a zipped case or remove it from a holster, the running of the serial number is good to go.  

Others will disagree... but I feel that opening a gun case/container IS a search and without consent, warrant, or an emergency, it's an unlawful search.  Some argue that an officer has the right to further render the firearm "safe"  beyond mere possession by unloading it... I personally disagree and feel once an officer has possession of the firearm the INTENT and PURPOSE of allowing an officer to secure any firearms has been met and accomplished.

Furthermore, a visible serial number is FAIR GAME... if you're at the range and I can see the serial number, I can run it at will... the key is AM I IN A LAWFUL POSITION TO MAKE THE OBSERVATION?  If I can observe ANYTHING from a position in which I have a right to be, there is no violation or restrictions.

ETA-  While there may be case law to the contrary... the above is how I do business.  With that said, I can't remember the last time I asked a CC citizen to surrender his/her firearm... I just don't do it usually.

Interesting take, so if you are asked to disarm by a LEO it may be better to remove the holster and the firearm together.

What if a firearm is in the glove box or back seat outside the intimidate possession of the driver. Does the LEO still have the authority to remove that firearm? It seems like it would be a clear constitutional violation to remove and run checks several rifle if they were in the backseat or trunk.

Like I said... it's my take on the matter and others will be along shortly to disagree I'm sure... I just try to do what I believe is best to protect citizen's rights and support those actions that enhance officer safety.  I strive to make sure my encounters with the armed public are pleasant WHEN I CAN (sometimes, people just won't let you treat them right and take it down a bad road from the start) in order to demonstrate not all of us are power hungry assholes.

Where firearms are located is irrelevant... if the officer knows, or is made aware of their presence, he can secure them during the duration of the encounter.  How you decide to present them, cased/holstered, or uncased/unholstered, is up to you... there ARE those idiots who ARE going to finger fuck them, open cases, etc.

I think that running the serial number is nothing more than a fishing trip... and a stupid one since I offered the information and therefore am most likely not hiding anything. But I agree with your thought that anything in plain eyesight is free game.... But what if the officers actions make the object in plain sight? So I hand my holster and pistol to the officer and he then removes the weapon to "render it safe" (never mind that he now has possession of it, and the pistol staying in the holster is safer than manipulating it to unload it), and he then decides it is in "plain sight". Well yeah, but only because he made it so it was in plain sight. I would equate this to him opening my trunk to "make the car safe" and well once he opened the trunk he could look around - Illegal.  



That is my exact plan. Remove my belt and hand the officer the weapon INSIDE the holster. If he asks me to remove it, I will state I would rather keep it holstered for safety.

GREEN- I don't have ANY IDEA who you are and what you know.  See my comments below reference the discovery of stolen items.

RED- I already addressed that.

On occasion, not very often mind you, we have recovered stolen firearms, and other serialized items, from citizens who had NO IDEA their item was once reported stolen.  I once seized a stolen shotgun from a local well known attorney who had the shotgun for YEARS and had no idea it was stolen.

We run numbers, just like we run driver's licenses, simply because you never know what's going to be the result... I admit, there have been times I've had a big "NO WAY" moment...

I would ask the LEO to remove the belt/holster/weapon from me.  I would prefer not to have a dash cam record me reaching my hands anywhere near the weapon.

 

If one is concerned about this possibility, why even tell the LEO they have firearms? Also, would one drive around with firearms and/or cases visible?

As an officer, I agree with Bowhntr6pt. The issue is that not all officers do. On top of that, it is largely left up to the officer, agency, or agency counsel to decide which is an unreasonable search.











 

To be polite and let the officer know. I know that I would rather answer their questions honestly than them find something they were not expecting. Say they ask you to get out of the car and they see a weapon print… How do you think that will play out?

The story's about finding a stolen shotgun…. Same could be applied to stolen iPhones, but we would not consider that justification for an officer to run our cell phone serial number on a traffic stop that had nothing to do with a phone call. Why wold we allow it just because the item is a firearm and the stop had nothing to do with firearms?

But it seems no one else is concerned about a violation of a persons 4th amendment rights. We would not accept this if they wanted to run the serial number of an iPhone, but we see just fine letting LEO's violate our rights when it comes to firearms.

Simply put... the courts disagree with you... securing your firearm(s) during an encounter and running the serial number does not violate any of your rights... and as already posted by two cops, not all of us ask citizens to surrender their firearms during a stop.

So YES... a firearm is viewed differently... if you don't like it, join the crowd... lots of other folks don't like it either.

And there you have it… Police do not respect an individuals 4th amendment right when it comes to firearms. Sure they may personally not feel that way, but they support the systems view of it. Whats next, allowing cops to walk into your house to run a serial number?

Again, we would not allow this if it was an iPhone, but since it is a firearm your 4th amendment rights go out the window.

 

Wow... that got serious quickly... sort of a broad statement there don't you think?

 If I had a stolen firearm returned to me because of an officer's running a S.N. during a legal traffic stop I would be very happy, if you buy a stolen firearm face to face that's on you. With our 2 A Right's constantly under atack we need to give a little and not always just say no. What is the harm caused to you by any LEO running your firearms S.N.? If it not stolen no big deal.

 
 

Might as well turn your pockets inside out and pop open your trunk, center console, and glove box for him as well and invite him to search your vehicle.

You have nothing to hide right?

Nonsense, finding his stolen stuff takes priority over your constitutional rights. Didn't you get the memo?

If the justification for searching guns at a traffic stop is simply that they are there and could be stolen, the same justification should be used to search every house in America for stolen electronics and jewelery. Whether you have been suspected of a crime or the police have a warrant have little importance, there are bad people afoot!


Guns are icky, and we can't get away with banning them. So we'll just have to settle with unconstitutional searches in the name of safety.

Would a person be ok with a cop running a serial number of any cell phones he finds? Why should firearms be different?

Would you be OK with a cop running your cell phone serial number? Would you be ok with him looking in your trunk just to see if any stolen property was in there? I mean if nothing is stolen, then no big deal right?

How about letting a cop walk into your house and run the serial numbers of all the weapons you have in your safe???? I mean if none are stolen - No big deal right? How about you let a cop look at your emails - I mean if you are doing nothing wrong - No big deal right?

Or, you could respect the 4th amendment and be against any intrusion of privacy against your will and without probable cause.

I guess you are fine with the NSA recording your meta data then?

Actually you are correct I have nothing to hide and if it moves my traffic stop along quickly, I just say look all you want just dont make a mess and dont break anything. I dont get upset when a LEO temporally disarms me for his safety as long as I am sure he is a LEO. I will also make sure to reload and rechamber a round before I put on my seatbelt and pull away. You want to give the LEO a hard time, by all means feel free to do so but you are wasting your time and only making the stop take longer than it should. That being said I have only been pulled over once in the last 25 years and was polite and cooperative and was only given a warning so it is not really a problem for me.  Y.M.M.V.

 
 
 
 

Now you are just being rediculous, when you go out in public it is completely different than being at home, your vehicleis not equal to your home.





 
 
 

The times I have been pulled over in my car and been specifically asked about my carry have been GREAT.   Both times (Sheriff, and FHP) they asked if I had a gun, I said yes.  "where?"  I said, in a holster in my right hip.  The sherrif guy said "ok no problem, just keep it there".   The FHP guy said "what is it?"  I told him...  His reply was something along the lines of "cool gun.  have a good day" and handed me my license!  

However, I've always wondered about the S/N issue.  Mainly because my crimson trace laser completely covers the S/N plate on my gun and I dont carry those tiny allen keys to take off the laser either!

Some of you guys need to realize that most crimes and criminals caught are results of traffic stops.

How clumsy of us, it's right there! We've completely misinterpreted the entire document along with all the supporting information and previous experiences from it's writers and signatories.

Dang it, we fucked up the wording again.


Any other modification proposals?

You would be incorrect

The Supreme Court has explained that what "a person knowingly exposes to the public, even in his own home or office, is not a subject of Fourth Amendment protection ... " But what he seeks to preserve as private, even in an area accessible to the public, may be constitutionally protected (see Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 [1967]). - See more at: http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-rights/when-the-fourth-amendment-applies.html#sthash.sdi7sOS1.dpuf

And we would catch more criminals if we allowed the police to walk into a persons house and search it…. But that does not mean it is a good idea, or even legal according the 4th Amendment.

   Good plan IMO. If he chooses to remove it without your consent then it makes it an illegal search IMO. But even if it's an illegal search nothing will be done about it unless it turns out to be stolen or illegal for other reasons and you get arrested. In that case, the whole case could/SHOULD be thrown out because of the illegal search. But if nothing illegal is found and no arrests are made, then nothing will be done about the LEO doing an illegal search.

   FWIW I've seen this happen several times at flea markets and it always bugs me. EVERY LEO that comes around picks up the guns and radios in the SN for a check.  Not that I'm necessarily against that but the thing that irritates me is that flea markets are FULL of items with serial numbers and guns are the ONLY thing that they ever check!

   This is why I love AR15.com!

Somehow some of you read a lot into a single sentence. Nowhere did it say that illegal searches were "cool".

 

Im sorry, explain exactly what you meant by saying that a lot of criminals are caught during traffic stops when the thread is about why cops are allowed to run a serial number of a firearm, when they would not be justified running the serial number of pretty much any other object…. Because I just seem to be missing it.

Sure, cops catch criminals on traffic stops. Police in NY also catch criminals with "Stop and Frisk". So should we institute "Stop and Frisk" in FL?

Why are you so hung up on running the serial number?  They already have your tag, VIN, address, DL number, SS number, criminal record, driving history, CWP number, other registered vehicles, etc.  Not sure why the serial number is what you find to be so invasive.  Maybe you should just file them off On a serious note, LEO can take possession of your weapon for officer safety should they deem it necessary.  Not saying that they should, but they have some flexibility when it comes to officer safety.  Keep in mind that you have been stopped for some sort of law violation or infraction and you are not free to go.  People who are stopped might be facing jail or at least a ticket, which can trigger an emotional response at times.  Once the gun is in their possession I agree with Bowhunter that if they can see the serial number there is no reason why they can't run it.  If they had to remove it from a case then I guess it could be considered too intrusive of a search and not permissible.  I'm not sure why you keep comparing a firearm to a cell phone.  Your cell phone isn't going to be seized by an officer for safety reasons on a traffic stop.  A cell phone is not a weapon. I guess I have to point out the obvious since you don't see the distinction.  For arguments sake, even if they did take your phone, you generally have to remove the back cover and battery to get to the serial #, so again that is a more intrusive search.

I'm sorry that the current procedure is a source of contention for many folks, I understand that... while I personally don't disarm citizens as a matter of policy, I won't fault those officers who do... that does not mean I devalue your rights...  because YOUR rights are MY rights, someday I won't be a cop and what goes around comes around, what can be done to YOU can be done to ME.

Just a side note as no matter what I say it won't change your attitudes and opinions of the issue or me as a person... I can live with that... but firearms stay in NCIC/FCIC indefinitely whereas other items like electronics, tools, equipment, only stay in the "ARTICLES FILE" for 90 days.

When did they tie in CWP to tag or DL?

Why are you so hung up on running the serial number?

Because I still think we/they should obey the Constitution.



And all that is required to drive, or own a gun… But we don't have registration and this is nothing more than a fishing trip. Are you saying you would be fine if they ran the serial number of your cell phone? I mean they have your your tag, VIN, address, DL number, SS number, criminal record, driving history, CWP number, other registered vehicles, etc??? So you OK with them running your cell phone serial number for an unrelated stop?


OK how is running a serial number required for officer safety?



There are plenty of cases of an officer trying to take a cell phone. Are you saying it should be legal or not?



Oh I see the difference between a phone an a firearm…. But maybe you can explain to me (since I am so stupid) how running the serial number of a weapon already in the officers hands makes him safer?



And are you fine with the officer removing the weapon from the holster to get the serial number?

You are ALMOST getting the point. You don't seem to be OK with the officer taking your cell phone and taking it out of its case to run the serial number….. But you seem fine with a cop taking your firearm and taking it out of the holster to run the serial number. You are trying with all your might to make them different, but the fact is both should be against the 4th amendment, but you seem fine with only one action.

This is not about officer safety. Never ONCE have I said that an officer can't disarm a person for their safety. My issue is with the illegal search aspect of it. You would not put up with that level of search for ANY other object, yet you seem fine as long as it is a firearm.

It is this EXACT attitude that allows the anti gun groups to take our rights away. For example, today you are fine with running a serial number on firearms….. Next they will want to be able to search you for their safety. Or maybe they will allow officers to search your house if they think you have a gun.

You and others roll over and give up your freedom too quickly.

Simply put - For no other object would removing a object from a case to run the serial number be considered legal. But you and others are fine rolling over and allowing it.

Thus helping to create a registry…..



Where did I say an officer should not be allowed to remove a weapon for safety reasons? Not once did I say that. My issue is with the running of the serial number. As you have admitted, it stays in the system FOREVER, unlike other items.

So once a cop runs the serial number attached to your name…. They now have the weapon attached to you…….

 

Simply put, the courts get a lot of things wrong. The courts have also upheld separate but equal and Obamacare.


Do not take our objection to unconstitutional searches as a defamation against law enforcement. Our exception is with the law makers who continue to ignore constitutional issues, especially in relation to firearms, and with the courts who prioritize their political ideologies over the supreme law of our country.

I respect the profession and appreciate your input.

Your right... my mistake... I apologize.  

That's not how it works... there is no "registry"... the only record is the fact the serial number was run and it's temporary... there is no way to link WHO was present when the firearm was run other than the officer, as that gets tracked... I think you're overthinking this.

If I run a serial number, and lets say the gun is clean, the system will keep that enquiry of the serial number only for a short period of time, I don't recall how long but it's not long... maybe several days... and if the firearm is LATER entered stolen DURING the short period the record is still in the system, I will get what is called a DELAYED HIT.  If the firearm is entered say weeks later as stolen, I'll never know or be notified of the initial enquiry.

Again... when serial numbers are run, they are NOT associated to ANYONE other than the officer/agency who made the enquiry... make sense?  The only record id the SERIAL NUMBER, the AGENCY, and the OFFICER.

Thank you... I appreciate that.

This went downhill quick.

Not all Law Enforcement are anti gun, or just waiting for a chance to stomp on the constitution, but I'm sure all Law Enforcement want to come home at the end of their shift.   LEO's have a right to secure a weapon from an individual they encounter if they have probable cause they have commited a crime or infraction.  If you don't want to be disarmed on a traffic stop then don't give a reason to be stopped.

Police are citizens also, people need to recognize that.  If there is a overwhelmingly negative, or abusive tone from your local Law Enforcement try talking to them about it. These are the same people that are your neighbors, your kids go to school with their kids, their spouses work with your spouses, etc.   The "us against them" rhetoric is bull shit and inhabits both sides from communicating.  Law Enforcement is two sided and requires a partnership with the community that needs effort from both sides.  

Want some real insite on preforming the job go on a ride along a few times.

Just to clear up some more misinformation:

Cops don't have tanks

Cops don't have some secret gun data base

Cops like it when you say hello

People (myself included) on this site have way more firepower in their closet than the Cops have access to

Cops don't jump on black helecopters to attend secret meetings at night to discuss how to trample the Constitution

Cops have the same problems at home and work you do

It crushes Cops when children are scared of them, but they love it when kids look up to them

Most Cops don't like doughnuts

Personal attack attempt aside....

The whole point still stands, running the serial number does NOTHING for officer safety and is only a fishing trip..... And the same action would NOT be allowed over any other object. Yet people like you are willing to roll over on everyone's 4th amendment rights.

So care to debate the points without the ad hominem methods?

Thank you, I never once said an officer should not be allowed to control a firearm for their safety.

Again, would you be allowed to remove an iPhone from a case and run that serial number? How about open a encased electric drill and run that serial number? But you are allowed to uncase a firearm and run that serial number..... How do you explain the differences as they relate to the 4th amendment?

 










 

Case law for legal of seizure of weapons on a traffic stop.

Here is the summary:

Arizona V. Johnson, 000 US 07–1122 (2009)A vehicle was lawfully stopped on traffic for a violation. During the course of the traffic stop, one of the officers on the scene talked to the passenger, Johnson. The encounter was consensual and was not related to any criminal matter. The officer developed reasonable suspicion that Johnson may be armed and pat searched him. A gun was found and he was arrested. The Court determined that an officer’s inquiries into matters unrelated to the justification for the traffic stop do not convert the encounter into something other than a lawful seizure, so long as the inquiries do not measurably extend the stop’s duration. In a traffic-stop setting, the first Terry condition—a lawful investigatory stop—is met whenever it is lawful for police to detain an automobile and its occupants pending inquiry into a vehicular violation. The police need not have, in addition, cause to believe any occupant of the vehicle is involved in criminal activity. To justify a pat down of the driver or a passenger during a traffic stop, however, just as in the case of a pedestrian reasonably suspected of criminal activity, the police must harbor reasonable suspicion that the person subjected to the frisk is armed and dangerous. "A reasonable passenger would understand that during the time a car is lawfully stopped, he or she is not free to terminate the encounter with the police and move about at will." The officer's authority to control the occupants of a stopped vehicle ends when the officer no longer needs to control the scene and advises the occupants they are free to leave.

If there is a lawful seizure then there is no violation of the 4th Amendment if the Officer chooses to run the serial number.

There is further case law that states plain view allows an Officer to run a number but if he or she manipulates the item it becomes a violation of the 4th Amendment. Since the seizure is lawful its a moot point. Your best bet is to not violate traffic laws so its a non issue or don't disclose you have a weapon and go that route.

Ah, got it you are unable to debate the topic and have to resort to personal attacks.

This is interesting information.... My contention is this point: " the police must harbor reasonable suspicion that the person subjected to the frisk is armed and dangerous". Armed would be easy, I would of told them. Dangerous would be harder to prove. If they were willingly informed of the presence of a weapon, and presented with a valid CFL/CWP..... It might be difficult to claim there was a "Danger". In the Arizona v. Johnson case the driver was a suspected gang member and an admitted felon.

Thanks.