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 SgtSchultz 
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Joined: May 2012  FL, USA
 Posts: 7 Feedback: 0% (0) |
Posted: 8/11/2012 9:52:15 AM
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT |
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Posted: 8/11/2012 11:02:34 AM
You'll probably beat the rap, but you might not beat the ride.
Get a holster with a conventional thumb strap. It will reduce your chance of taking the ride. Answers form LEO are basically irrelevant if you want to know for certainty what is legal and what is not. Only the judge/jury or appeals court will make that determination. |
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Posted: 8/11/2012 11:08:08 AM
My understanding is that the pistol can be on your person with a permit; otherwise it must be securely encased. Without a thumbrake, strap or snap, your pistol in an open holster is NOT securely encased. Fabricate a simple velcro strap and you should be fully compliant.
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BillyJack
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Joined: Jan 2012 FL, USA
Posts: 374 Feedback: 100% (10) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/11/2012 11:28:55 AM
FL law states that the firearm or weapon must be securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use.
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Posted: 8/11/2012 12:02:53 PM
Originally Posted By kilo905:
You'll probably beat the rap, but you might not beat the ride. Get a holster with a conventional thumb strap. It will reduce your chance of taking the ride. Answers form LEO are basically irrelevant if you want to know for certainty what is legal and what is not. Only the judge/jury or appeals court will make that determination. The first point is dead on. The second point is also correct, because questions about the legality of something from the individual LEO's perspective can vary based on how they approach the situation. What might be legal after introducing yourself, stating that you have a permit, and then pointing to it and asking may not be quite so legal after he pulls you over for running a stop sign and speeding. |
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gunnut284
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Joined: Aug 2001 FL, USA
Posts: 5907 Feedback: 100% (30) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/11/2012 3:25:50 PM
You said you have a CWP? If so, you are fine. If not, then you need a thumb break or other retention.
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America-first
Tired of all the bullshit
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Joined: Oct 2005 FL, USA
Posts: 28505 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/11/2012 3:41:46 PM
Originally Posted By gunnut284:
You said you have a CWP? If so, you are fine. If not, then you need a thumb break or other retention. That is the answer; the "securely encased" provision applies only to those without a CCW. |
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Posted: 8/11/2012 4:33:53 PM
[Last Edit: 8/11/2012 4:36:59 PM by justmatt]
Originally Posted By SgtSchultz:
I have a pistol holster that attaches under the steering column on my truck. It does not have any type clasp or “lock”. It’s actually a left hand leather open holster that attaches perfect. I have been told by a LEO that it’s fine as long as I have a CWP (my wife also has one). What are your thoughts? It seems when you ask various LEO’s CWP questions you get different answers. Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By gunnut284:
You said you have a CWP? If so, you are fine. If not, then you need a thumb break or other retention. That is the answer; the "securely encased" provision applies only to those without a CCW. Out of curiosity, is it a holster like this? .jpg)
If so, I'm not sure, because even with a CWFL so you don't need a thumb-break, it's still supposed to be concealed from plain view. So if a cop standing outside your window (for example, giving you a ticket) would be able to see it hanging there, I'm not sure you're in the clear. I've often wondered about this, because I'd like to have one of those for my car, but I'm not sure of the legality. ETA: Sorry for monster photo. It was smaller on their website, and the codes here don't allow resizing. |
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Posted: 8/11/2012 5:26:59 PM
[Last Edit: 8/11/2012 9:26:06 PM by geddyfan]
Originally Posted By justmatt:
Originally Posted By SgtSchultz:
I have a pistol holster that attaches under the steering column on my truck. It does not have any type clasp or “lock”. It’s actually a left hand leather open holster that attaches perfect. I have been told by a LEO that it’s fine as long as I have a CWP (my wife also has one). What are your thoughts? It seems when you ask various LEO’s CWP questions you get different answers. Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By gunnut284:
You said you have a CWP? If so, you are fine. If not, then you need a thumb break or other retention. That is the answer; the "securely encased" provision applies only to those without a CCW. Out of curiosity, is it a holster like this? https://www.gumcreekcustoms.com/uploads/image/vehicle_mount3(1).jpg If so, I'm not sure, because even with a CWFL so you don't need a thumb-break, it's still supposed to be concealed from plain view. So if a cop standing outside your window (for example, giving you a ticket) would be able to see it hanging there, I'm not sure you're in the clear. I've often wondered about this, because I'd like to have one of those for my car, but I'm not sure of the legality. ETA: Sorry for monster photo. It was smaller on their website, and the codes here don't allow resizing. I too believe that may be the case. Even with CCW's I don't believe this method is considered concealed. Plus, it's not really concealed from someone walking by. |
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Posted: 8/11/2012 8:11:20 PM
This video should help you......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkY61L2Kj8s |
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Posted: 8/11/2012 11:13:45 PM
I use one in conjuction with a CWP and have never had an issue with it.
I do however, run an empty chamber with this rig because the pistol is pointed at my left ankle when braking. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 2:07:16 AM
[Last Edit: 8/12/2012 2:08:14 AM by justmatt]
Originally Posted By fuzzy03cls:
This video should help you...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkY61L2Kj8s Relevant portion is at 7:36. The answer would seem to be to use a thumb break holster and you would likely be safe and legal (because a snap holster can literally be anywhere, even on the dash), or use an open holster (which needs to be "out of plain view), and take your chances on arguing on "how concealed it is." Another remote possibility to consider is that a thumb break or snap holster lessens the chance of your weapon becoming a loose, rather heavy projectile in the case of an accident. |
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searchin4shacks
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Joined: May 2009 FL, USA
Posts: 691 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/12/2012 8:45:14 AM
I'm thinking that "open Carry" may apply to this situation. The post above, with the picture, would not be concealed. Open carry is not legal in Florida. I'd be nervous having a visible gun in that location when a cop approached my car after pulling me over for a violation. Good way to get drawn on!!!
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gunnut284
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Joined: Aug 2001 FL, USA
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Posted: 8/12/2012 12:16:08 PM
It not a "concealed vs open carry" issue, it's car carry. If you read my previous answer I wasn't asking a question, I was making a statement. Remember though - legal doesn't necessarily equal smart.
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85blazer
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Joined: Jan 2005 FL, USA
Posts: 1965 Feedback: 100% (78) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/12/2012 1:08:23 PM
[Last Edit: 8/12/2012 1:18:52 PM by 85blazer]
Originally Posted By gunnut284:
It not a "concealed vs open carry" issue, it's car carry. If you read my previous answer I wasn't asking a question, I was making a statement. Remember though - legal doesn't necessarily equal smart. This is what I was thinking. I know I'm a "good guy" but the leo I'm in contact with has no Idea who I am or what I'm about. ETA quick CSB On my 21st bday I was going to school and living in Orlando. I purchased a S&W mod 60 .357 and saw a leo in the parking lot on my way out. I said hello and asked if I could ask him a question..."Sure". Sir I just purchased this pistol,whats the deal with having it in my car? He said something like "if I pull you over and you don't tell me about it and I think your going for it;I'm putting one behind your FxxxING ear". I NEVER FORGOT THAT and all interactions with Florida leo have been fine. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 1:53:29 PM
[Last Edit: 8/12/2012 2:45:58 PM by CREPR]
Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By gunnut284:
You said you have a CWP? If so, you are fine. If not, then you need a thumb break or other retention. That is the answer; the "securely encased" provision applies only to those without a CCW. Gents, I'm having difficulty locating documentation on this. Are you advising thay if you have a permit, then you can legally have your loaded handgun anywhere in your vehicle, without it being securely encased? I know with a permit, you can have it on your person while in a vehicle, but I can't locate any documentation that exempts permit holders from following established vehicle transport laws, unless the weapon is actually on their person. While its logical and many LEOs would probably give the permit holder the benefit of the doubt; is it legal for a permit holder to have a loaded handgun, just sitting on the passenger seat, the dash, their lap, etc...without it being securely encased. Laws may have changed within the past few years, but I can't locate an official statute or reference to confirm that. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 2:48:16 PM
[Last Edit: 8/12/2012 2:56:27 PM by stang6768]
Originally Posted By CREPR:
Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By gunnut284:
You said you have a CWP? If so, you are fine. If not, then you need a thumb break or other retention. That is the answer; the "securely encased" provision applies only to those without a CCW. Gents, I'm having difficulty locating documentation on this. Are you advising thay if you have a permit, then you can legally have your loaded handgun anywhere in your vehicle, without it being securely encased? I know with a permit, you can have it on your person while in a vehicle, but I can't locate any documentation that exempts permit holders from following established vehicle transport laws, unless the weapon is actually on their person. While its logical and many LEOs would probably give the permit holder the benefit of the doubt; is it legal for a permit holder to have a loaded handgun, just sitting on the passenger seat, the dash, their lap, etc...without it being securely encased. Laws may have changed within the past few years, but I locate an official statute or reference to confirm that. I'm quoting from John Gutmachers book since it's not available elctronically for me to link to. According to his opinion which I agree with: CHART OF WHAT IS "SECURELY ENCASED": (pg 88) in a snapped holster-anywhere-loaded or unloaded in a closed console-loaded or unloaded in a closed glove compartment-loaded or unloaded in a zippered gun case-loaded or unloaded in any other type of CLOSED container which the gun cannot be fired from until withdrawn-loaded or unloaded Statute link: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=790.25&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.25.html The holster shown above needs a snap to be legal. If Gutmacher is right the issue is,is it securely encased, not is it visible. All that being said beating the rap not the ride probably applies as far as a LEO seeing it during a traffic stop. Edit cause I forgot to answer the question I quoted: No case law exists thus far for those wanting to throw thier carry pistol under a towel in the seat next to them while posessing thier license as far as I know. Carrying it openly in your lap unsecurly encased is probably illegal. |
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justmatt
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Joined: Jul 2012 FL, USA
Posts: 100 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/12/2012 5:05:08 PM
[Last Edit: 8/12/2012 5:19:24 PM by justmatt]
Originally Posted By CREPR:
Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By gunnut284:
You said you have a CWP? If so, you are fine. If not, then you need a thumb break or other retention. That is the answer; the "securely encased" provision applies only to those without a CCW. Gents, I'm having difficulty locating documentation on this. Are you advising thay if you have a permit, then you can legally have your loaded handgun anywhere in your vehicle, without it being securely encased? I know with a permit, you can have it on your person while in a vehicle, but I can't locate any documentation that exempts permit holders from following established vehicle transport laws, unless the weapon is actually on their person. While its logical and many LEOs would probably give the permit holder the benefit of the doubt; is it legal for a permit holder to have a loaded handgun, just sitting on the passenger seat, the dash, their lap, etc...without it being securely encased. Laws may have changed within the past few years, but I locate an official statute or reference to confirm that. No, because in none of your examples is the weapon concealed from plain sight. The "securely encased" part isn't relevant for a permit holder. The visibility is. "Securely encased" (for example: snap holster) + plain sight = OK FOR ANYONE Not "securely encased" + plain sight = NOT OK FOR ANYONE, EVER Not "securely encased" + concealed from plain view + no non-permitholders in the vehicle with you = OK Not "securely encased" + concealed from plain view + non-permitholders in the vehicle with you = NOT OK (they could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon, a felony) From Gutmacher's book (7th ed., page 82 & 88): 82: Carrying a concealed weapon under F.S. 790.01 means "on or about your person." "On or about" your person generally means within your reach or immediate control. Thus, with the permit you may legally carry your firearm or weapon in a briefcase, bag, etc. –– as well as on your immediate person, as long as it's concealed. Logically, this means you could have it within reach, under a towel in your car - although that's likely not a great idea. And no, it doesn't have to be in a holster! 88: ...it is my firm opinion (again, no case law) that a person with a valid CWP has the option of carrying a firearm either "securely encased" - or - fully concealed on or about their immediate person. Thus while I really don't recommend it –– if you have a CWP and wanted to put your firearm under a thick towel on the seat next to you within reaching distance –– my opinion is that it's covered by your permit as it is "concealed," and is therefore legal. However, make damn sure it's fully concealed - otherwise it's "open carry," and a misdemeanor! ETA: red text in fourth example ETA: more red text in first line |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 5:11:54 PM
Yes, very much like that...........
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searchin4shacks
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Joined: May 2009 FL, USA
Posts: 692 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/12/2012 6:00:05 PM
[Last Edit: 8/12/2012 6:02:01 PM by searchin4shacks]
Originally Posted By justmatt:
Originally Posted By CREPR:
Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By gunnut284:
You said you have a CWP? If so, you are fine. If not, then you need a thumb break or other retention. That is the answer; the "securely encased" provision applies only to those without a CCW. Gents, I'm having difficulty locating documentation on this. Are you advising thay if you have a permit, then you can legally have your loaded handgun anywhere in your vehicle, without it being securely encased? I know with a permit, you can have it on your person while in a vehicle, but I can't locate any documentation that exempts permit holders from following established vehicle transport laws, unless the weapon is actually on their person. While its logical and many LEOs would probably give the permit holder the benefit of the doubt; is it legal for a permit holder to have a loaded handgun, just sitting on the passenger seat, the dash, their lap, etc...without it being securely encased. Laws may have changed within the past few years, but I locate an official statute or reference to confirm that. No, because in none of your examples is the weapon concealed from plain sight. The "securely encased" part isn't relevant for a permit holder. The visibility is. "Securely encased" (for example: snap holster) + plain sight = OK FOR ANYONE Not "securely encased" + plain sight = NOT OK FOR ANYONE, EVER Not "securely encased" + concealed from plain view + no non-permitholders in the vehicle with you = OK Not "securely encased" + concealed from plain view + non-permitholders in the vehicle with you = NOT OK (they could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon, a felony) From Gutmacher's book (7th ed., page 82 & 88): 82: Carrying a concealed weapon under F.S. 790.01 means "on or about your person." "On or about" your person generally means within your reach or immediate control. Thus, with the permit you may legally carry your firearm or weapon in a briefcase, bag, etc. –– as well as on your immediate person, as long as it's concealed. Logically, this means you could have it within reach, under a towel in your car - although that's likely not a great idea. And no, it doesn't have to be in a holster! 88: ...it is my firm opinion (again, no case law) that a person with a valid CWP has the option of carrying a firearm either "securely encased" - or - fully concealed on or about their immediate person. Thus while I really don't recommend it –– if you have a CWP and wanted to put your firearm under a thick towel on the seat next to you within reaching distance –– my opinion is that it's covered by your permit as it is "concealed," and is therefore legal. However, make damn sure it's fully concealed - otherwise it's "open carry," and a misdemeanor! ETA: red text in fourth example ETA: more red text in first line This is what I was attempting to say when I said it's possibly a "carry Issue" Permit or not, you can't legally place a gun in sight that is not securely encased. The picture of the gun strapped to the bottom of a steering column without a snap is not legal or a good idea when being stopped. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:03:07 PM
Originally Posted By justmatt:
Originally Posted By CREPR:
Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By gunnut284:
You said you have a CWP? If so, you are fine. If not, then you need a thumb break or other retention. That is the answer; the "securely encased" provision applies only to those without a CCW. Gents, I'm having difficulty locating documentation on this. Are you advising thay if you have a permit, then you can legally have your loaded handgun anywhere in your vehicle, without it being securely encased? I know with a permit, you can have it on your person while in a vehicle, but I can't locate any documentation that exempts permit holders from following established vehicle transport laws, unless the weapon is actually on their person. While its logical and many LEOs would probably give the permit holder the benefit of the doubt; is it legal for a permit holder to have a loaded handgun, just sitting on the passenger seat, the dash, their lap, etc...without it being securely encased. Laws may have changed within the past few years, but I locate an official statute or reference to confirm that. No, because in none of your examples is the weapon concealed from plain sight. The "securely encased" part isn't relevant for a permit holder. The visibility is. The visibility part of the equation solves the mystery for me. Thanks Gents for your replies and a special thanks to Justmatt for the comprehensive post. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 9:02:57 PM
[Last Edit: 8/12/2012 9:05:13 PM by Miami02TJ]
Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By gunnut284:
You said you have a CWP? If so, you are fine. If not, then you need a thumb break or other retention. That is the answer; the "securely encased" provision applies only to those without a CCW. Where did you get this idea? Please quote a statue because you are quite wrong. This topic is full of one bad advise followed by another. Just read the FAQ, the answer is there. |
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Posted: 8/13/2012 10:39:59 AM
Originally Posted By Miami02TJ:
Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By gunnut284:
You said you have a CWP? If so, you are fine. If not, then you need a thumb break or other retention. That is the answer; the "securely encased" provision applies only to those without a CCW. Where did you get this idea? Please quote a statue because you are quite wrong. This topic is full of one bad advise followed by another. Just read the FAQ, the answer is there. Herein lies the problem, Knife laws and statutes are often written in such a manner, that it can be interpreted in a myriad of different ways. Ergo, that's why we're having this discussing. If you're aware of a statute that adds clarity, please share it with the rest of us, along with your interpretation of what it means. |
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Posted: 8/14/2012 9:39:31 AM
I think I will just keep it secured in the center console, LOL
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Posted: 8/14/2012 10:22:58 AM
Does a SERPA style holster count since you have to press a button?
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justmatt
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Joined: Jul 2012 FL, USA
Posts: 116 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/14/2012 10:30:21 AM
Originally Posted By a555:
Does a SERPA style holster count since you have to press a button? You'll definitely have to do your own research on that. I think I vaguely remember reading about that specific question a while back, but I don't remember where or what the answer was. |
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