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Posted: 10/22/2014 4:51:12 AM EDT
[#1]
There is also 'talk' of the buyer being a Cytec Inc & Bloomberg Beta venture.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 8:41:03 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is also 'talk' of the buyer being a Cytec Inc & Bloomberg Beta venture. Fucking great, Bloomberg Beta is owned/funded by Bloomberg LC, which surprise surprise everyone's favorite anti-gun asshole Michael Bloomberg is the founder and large stakeholder. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 8:56:36 AM EDT
[#3]
HK GmBh is fucking broke and on the verge of going out of business again. The only reason why they didn't last time was that they were bought by the Brits and given that sweet deal of unfucking the SA-80 bullpup rifle.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 10:11:27 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
HK GmBh is fucking broke and on the verge of going out of business again. The only reason why they didn't last time was that they were bought by the Brits and given that sweet deal of unfucking the SA-80 bullpup rifle. You can thank the German government for HK going broke. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 10:22:27 AM EDT
[#5]
Might explain their $200 rebate promo slated to start November 1st... a way to clear out old dusty inventory from suppliers to bolster new model orders in a bid to jumpstart their books for a buyout, or to bolster their position for a new owner.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 10:37:16 AM EDT
[#6]
Maybe they should price their shit in the affordable realm. If Germans can import and sell Walther PPQ's for less than Gen 4 Glocks and PPX for $279 then a polymer HK pistol with shitty triggers shouldn't cost $700-800.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 10:52:50 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can thank the German government for HK going broke. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: HK GmBh is fucking broke and on the verge of going out of business again. The only reason why they didn't last time was that they were bought by the Brits and given that sweet deal of unfucking the SA-80 bullpup rifle. You can thank the German government for HK going broke. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:07:36 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then explain Walther's success. I don't know that we can really call Walther a success story. It seemed that they never gained widespread popularity in the Interarms days. They tried the S&W thing, but Smith eventually realized that importing & promoting Walther was hurting their own product line, so they treated Walther like the redheaded stepchild. Now, you've got "Walther Arms" but the Walther name itself has been tarnished by the Umarex garbage that bears its bannered logo. The Ulm factory guns are absolutely great, but even still, we are a small contingent of people that even recognize the Walther name and understand its place in history as well as the modern stage. When John Q. Public goes to buy a gun, he reaches for the Glock, or something more 'Merican. If anything, I think Walther is an example of a sad sequence of fuck-ups. The current high-speed liquidation of the PPX line seems to be an acknowledgement that they missed the mark; in the aesthetics department, they certainly did! Now, Walther is certainly subject to the same red tape and labor force demands as H&K is, that's for certain. I think H&K just keeps putting all their eggs in the Military basket and it never really takes it to the picnic. They've been scared to expand the Wilcox site to crank out the guns we really want, and that has been a big failing, especially considering the volume of guns purchased in the US civilian market vs. Military purchases. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:33:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then explain Walther's success. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
HK GmBh is fucking broke and on the verge of going out of business again. The only reason why they didn't last time was that they were bought by the Brits and given that sweet deal of unfucking the SA-80 bullpup rifle. You can thank the German government for HK going broke. Walther has more oars in the water than HK. Umarex sells a ton of airsoft, bb, and rimfire worldwide. HK doesn't have a parent, sibling, or partner propping up the balance sheet. HK is, and always has been, a small company. If HK went into rimfire/airsoft/bb guns, then they could enjoy the same market access as Walther/Umarex without the German "weapons of war" restrictions on export and civilian sales. HK should move their HQ to someplace more friendly towards selling than Germany. I know it is sacrilegious to think this, but a company has to turn a profit to survive. If they can't make money due to all of the oppressive restrictions, then move to greener pastures. The Czech Republic is much friendlier and is only around a three hour drive away. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:10:34 PM EDT
[#10]
The G36 better not be dead
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Posted: 10/22/2014 3:16:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Well, this explains a lot:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/10/22/hk-germany-export-licenses-approved/ "The German governments refusal to issue export permits has been putting a strain on Heckler & Koch’s finances. According to a report from Moody’s Investor Services, last week the German government approved exports to Middle Eastern and other non-NATO countries." Doesn't save HK USA though... |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 3:35:51 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The G36 better not be dead |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 6:21:30 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that piece of crap need to die regardless Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The G36 better not be dead Agreed. To this day I'm not sure why they didnt "upgrade" the HK33 and keep what was known to work. The age of a design does not equate to it being "out dated". Would have welding on a rail (for optics) to the current design been that much of a hassle? It couldnt have been any more expensive to switch to the G36. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 8:41:37 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agreed. To this day I'm not sure why they didnt "upgrade" the HK33 and keep what was known to work. The age of a design does not equate to it being "out dated". Would have welding on a rail (for optics) to the current design been that much of a hassle? It couldnt have been any more expensive to switch to the G36. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The G36 better not be dead Agreed. To this day I'm not sure why they didnt "upgrade" the HK33 and keep what was known to work. The age of a design does not equate to it being "out dated". Would have welding on a rail (for optics) to the current design been that much of a hassle? It couldnt have been any more expensive to switch to the G36. You just described the HK G41. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 9:16:36 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You just described the HK G41. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The G36 better not be dead Agreed. To this day I'm not sure why they didnt "upgrade" the HK33 and keep what was known to work. The age of a design does not equate to it being "out dated". Would have welding on a rail (for optics) to the current design been that much of a hassle? It couldnt have been any more expensive to switch to the G36. You just described the HK G41. Rifle on the bottom of the photo.  |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 9:49:18 AM EDT
[#16]
I wish a clone of the G41 would be made, either by PTR or MKE. I asked Zenith/Quest if the were planning on making a T-43 that accepts AR mags, not at this time was the reply. I know Moore Advanced Dynamics makes one, but not to G41 specs.
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Posted: 10/23/2014 10:25:29 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that piece of crap need to die regardless Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The G36 better not be dead Indeed. What a POS |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 11:10:01 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The G36 better not be dead It was DOA. Now it is just a Zombie that shows up here and there until someone gives it a stem tap. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 11:30:27 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe they should price their shit in the affordable realm. If Germans can import and sell Walther PPQ's for less than Gen 4 Glocks and PPX for $279 then a polymer HK pistol with shitty triggers shouldn't cost $700-800. That has always been my beef with H&K firearms going back to the 1980s. I was saving up for a POF-5 MP-5 clone before unexpected bills killed that plan. But at $1449 I was always nagged with the thoughts about what else could I buy with that kind of money, Especially when my disposable income is much reduced these days and the cost of everything continues to go up. I'm not trying to make anyone mad, but the MP-5/HK94/POF-5/clone design is 50 years old. IMHO, R&D costs have been more than paid back. Tooling and machinery costs have been more than paid back. Military sales contracts have probably paid a good chunk of that back as well. All you've got now is raw matierials and labor. And, if the guns are being made in Turkey, Pakistan, Mexico or another H&K licensed non-German facility, those costs should be lower as well. I guess what i'm saying is that H&K makes great firearms that are worth $600-700 and cost double that. If they want to have more sales, and bring in more revenue, adjust their prices downward where more people can afford them or what people perceive them to be worth. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 11:58:52 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Indeed. What a POS Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The G36 better not be dead Indeed. What a POS Care to elaborate? Eric (IV8888) gave it high remarks. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 12:52:23 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That has always been my beef with H&K firearms going back to the 1980s. I was saving up for a POF-5 MP-5 clone before unexpected bills killed that plan. But at $1449 I was always nagged with the thoughts about what else could I buy with that kind of money, Especially when my disposable income is much reduced these days and the cost of everything continues to go up. I'm not trying to make anyone mad, but the MP-5/HK94/POF-5/clone design is 50 years old. IMHO, R&D costs have been more than paid back. Tooling and machinery costs have been more than paid back. Military sales contracts have probably paid a good chunk of that back as well. All you've got now is raw matierials and labor. And, if the guns are being made in Turkey, Pakistan, Mexico or another H&K licensed non-German facility, those costs should be lower as well. I guess what i'm saying is that H&K makes great firearms that are worth $600-700 and cost double that. If they want to have more sales, and bring in more revenue, adjust their prices downward where more people can afford them or what people perceive them to be worth. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Maybe they should price their shit in the affordable realm. If Germans can import and sell Walther PPQ's for less than Gen 4 Glocks and PPX for $279 then a polymer HK pistol with shitty triggers shouldn't cost $700-800. That has always been my beef with H&K firearms going back to the 1980s. I was saving up for a POF-5 MP-5 clone before unexpected bills killed that plan. But at $1449 I was always nagged with the thoughts about what else could I buy with that kind of money, Especially when my disposable income is much reduced these days and the cost of everything continues to go up. I'm not trying to make anyone mad, but the MP-5/HK94/POF-5/clone design is 50 years old. IMHO, R&D costs have been more than paid back. Tooling and machinery costs have been more than paid back. Military sales contracts have probably paid a good chunk of that back as well. All you've got now is raw matierials and labor. And, if the guns are being made in Turkey, Pakistan, Mexico or another H&K licensed non-German facility, those costs should be lower as well. I guess what i'm saying is that H&K makes great firearms that are worth $600-700 and cost double that. If they want to have more sales, and bring in more revenue, adjust their prices downward where more people can afford them or what people perceive them to be worth. You are 100% on the actual cost of production being only a fraction of the sales price. The only reason they are priced that high is because they are selling at that price. If demand went down, so would the price. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 1:34:35 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Care to elaborate? Eric (IV8888) gave it high remarks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The G36 better not be dead Indeed. What a POS Care to elaborate? Eric (IV8888) gave it high remarks. I would listen to Eric about modding out a Mosin, bout it |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 6:29:07 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Care to elaborate? Eric (IV8888) gave it high remarks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The G36 better not be dead Indeed. What a POS Care to elaborate? Eric (IV8888) gave it high remarks. Just people bashing a product they have never used, based on a couple reports from years ago, for a situation that no civilian would ever encounter. Just ignore it. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 10:26:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just people bashing a product they have never used, based on a couple reports from years ago, for a situation that no civilian would ever encounter. Just ignore it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The G36 better not be dead Indeed. What a POS Care to elaborate? Eric (IV8888) gave it high remarks. Just people bashing a product they have never used, based on a couple reports from years ago, for a situation that no civilian would ever encounter. Just ignore it. 
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Posted: 10/25/2014 10:41:48 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are 100% on the actual cost of production being only a fraction of the sales price. The only reason they are priced that high is because they are selling at that price. If demand went down, so would the price. Actually manufacturing in Germany is controlled by the government and unions. That is the way the US is headed if we don't change paths. Socialist countries have a hard time being competitive in a world market. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 1:51:40 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually manufacturing in Germany is controlled by the government and unions. That is the way the US is headed if we don't change paths. Socialist countries have a hard time being competitive in a world market. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You are 100% on the actual cost of production being only a fraction of the sales price. The only reason they are priced that high is because they are selling at that price. If demand went down, so would the price. Actually manufacturing in Germany is controlled by the government and unions. That is the way the US is headed if we don't change paths. Socialist countries have a hard time being competitive in a world market. That is why HK needs to relocate to a free country, I would say here, but, I will have to wait until after 2016 to see if we will be free. |
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Posted: 11/1/2014 4:53:54 PM EDT
[#27]
Per G3Kurz on HKPRO the rumor is BS.
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Posted: 11/2/2014 11:55:57 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just people bashing a product they have never used, based on a couple reports from years ago, for a situation that no civilian would ever encounter. Just ignore it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The G36 better not be dead Indeed. What a POS Care to elaborate? Eric (IV8888) gave it high remarks. Just people bashing a product they have never used, based on a couple reports from years ago, for a situation that no civilian would ever encounter. Just ignore it. I was issued one for years, and felt it was a sub-par rifle. Add the absolute misery of dealing with H&K service and a mediocre rifle and that answers the question why virtually no agencies used them. |
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Posted: 11/3/2014 12:58:37 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was issued one for years, and felt it was a sub-par rifle. Add the absolute misery of dealing with H&K service and a mediocre rifle and that answers the question why virtually no agencies used them. Care to elaborate? What didn't you like? Accuracy? Reliability? Handling? I have used 5 different examples and have been extremely happy with each of them. Very accurate, nary a malfunctions in over 6K rounds, good ergos (minus that stupid double optic, the A2 rail is the way to go), good handling and feel. And agencies don't use them because most have a hard on for the AR15 because they are cheap and people are comfortable with them. It's the same reason the military still uses the AR. The G36 is no the greatest gun, I don't think I would take one over a SCAR or ARX, but it's a very solid more modern offering for people who want something other than an AR or AK. Although I never had to deal with HK service as they are not my rifles and my own HK's have never had an issue. |
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Posted: 11/5/2014 9:28:38 PM EDT
[#30]
On target, never jams and weighs 6lbs, such a suck weapon. I love the "opinion" that it doesn't seem that good. Couple a thou down the pipe and the barrel is still where it was when I got it. Guess plastic somehow defies all plastic properties and warps back. On the other hand, that optic does suck.
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Posted: 11/6/2014 1:30:23 AM EDT
[#31]
I haven't heard of the plastic around the trunnion melting/warping until they hit about 5-7 mags full auto. There is also the reload speed factor, with both the paddle release and racking the op handle being slower than a AR's reload.
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Posted: 11/6/2014 9:51:10 AM EDT
[#32]
Short of handling them at the HK Booth at SHOT Show, I don't have any experience with G36s, but I will say this:
The reports in the German media about the alleged shortcomings of the G36 are eerily similar to the articles that bashed the M4 for its "failures" at Wanat. That is to say, for some reason people keep expecting a service rifle to be able to perform like a medium or heavy machine gun. These general issue select fire rifles simply aren't made for continuous, sustained fire; the rates of fire are spec'd out for a reason. It makes no sense to me, but I guess reality checks seldom get in the way of a good ole' fashioned controversy. |
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Posted: 11/6/2014 7:55:45 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I haven't heard of the plastic around the trunnion melting/warping until they hit about 5-7 mags full auto. There is also the reload speed factor, with both the paddle release and racking the op handle being slower than a AR's reload. Both addressed in this pic. Not only can you release the mag, you release the bolt with your finger. Nice thing if you also have an HK pistol is the muscle memory, and it you have to rack, you can keep the rifle on you shoulder, so one more +1 for the G36. 
For the 5-7 mag dumps, which back in my day would get you an article 15, that could result in a cook-off in the M16, but as in this video, did nothing bad for the G36, so +2. Seems like bad rumors on guns occur whenever the manufacturer would like to replace with say the MR556 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTt8TsqIcoc |
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Posted: 11/7/2014 4:06:32 PM EDT
[#34]
OK, I was completely wrong about the reloads. That's what I get for talking about a weapon I haven't used.
 Thanks for the photo. On the trunnion issue, how do you know shifting occurs (or doesn't) unless you follow-up with accuracy testing after the mag dumps? Was there ever a conclusive test done on this, maybe at different ambient temperatures? As far as vs M4... Cook-off? I admit I have not shot an M4 that much, but will they really cook-off after 7 mags? I read the test results from when they tested old-style M4 barrels and the M4A1 SOCOM barrel, and seem to recall them saying an old M4 barrel was good for around 7-9 mags before the barrel (or gas tube) would fail (rupture), and the SOCOM barrels were good for around 14-16 mags. I don't recall anything about cook-off, but perhaps that wasn't a test parameter? Lastly, since there seems to be some good G36 knowledge around this thread... Can anyone tell me if USSOCOM ever tested (or field-evaluated) the G36? I heard a rumor years ago that the SEALs did (along with the Sig 551/552), but of course SOCOM Confrontation was out around that same time for PlayStation, so may have been complete BS. Anyone know? I do know they field-tested Ruger Mini-14's and G3's and some other models in/around the Panama Invasion time frame, and of course had the T223 in Vietnam. I also heard some pre-production (maybe 500-1000) XM8's saw service in the sandbox, I think with an Army unit... |
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Posted: 11/8/2014 12:55:56 PM EDT
[#35]
There is a guy doing a thread on the HK Forum doing destructive testing on his conversion which is including mag dump/point of impact shift tests.
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Posted: 11/9/2014 6:59:22 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As far as vs M4... Cook-off? I admit I have not shot an M4 that much, but will they really cook-off after 7 mags? I read the test results from when they tested old-style M4 barrels and the M4A1 SOCOM barrel, and seem to recall them saying an old M4 barrel was good for around 7-9 mags before the barrel (or gas tube) would fail (rupture), and the SOCOM barrels were good for around 14-16 mags. I don't recall anything about cook-off, but perhaps that wasn't a test parameter? Takes far more than 7 mags, both this M4 and M4A1 don't run away after 500+ rounds: At War NYT Article M4 firing tests |
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Posted: 11/9/2014 9:07:27 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can thank the German US government for HK going broke. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
HK GmBh is fucking broke and on the verge of going out of business again. The only reason why they didn't last time was that they were bought by the Brits and given that sweet deal of unfucking the SA-80 bullpup rifle. You can thank the German US government for HK going broke. fxt |
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Posted: 11/9/2014 11:34:35 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Care to elaborate? What didn't you like? Accuracy? Reliability? Handling? I have used 5 different examples and have been extremely happy with each of them. Very accurate, nary a malfunctions in over 6K rounds, good ergos (minus that stupid double optic, the A2 rail is the way to go), good handling and feel. And agencies don't use them because most have a hard on for the AR15 because they are cheap and people are comfortable with them. It's the same reason the military still uses the AR. The G36 is no the greatest gun, I don't think I would take one over a SCAR or ARX, but it's a very solid more modern offering for people who want something other than an AR or AK. Although I never had to deal with HK service as they are not my rifles and my own HK's have never had an issue. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I was issued one for years, and felt it was a sub-par rifle. Add the absolute misery of dealing with H&K service and a mediocre rifle and that answers the question why virtually no agencies used them. Care to elaborate? What didn't you like? Accuracy? Reliability? Handling? I have used 5 different examples and have been extremely happy with each of them. Very accurate, nary a malfunctions in over 6K rounds, good ergos (minus that stupid double optic, the A2 rail is the way to go), good handling and feel. And agencies don't use them because most have a hard on for the AR15 because they are cheap and people are comfortable with them. It's the same reason the military still uses the AR. The G36 is no the greatest gun, I don't think I would take one over a SCAR or ARX, but it's a very solid more modern offering for people who want something other than an AR or AK. Although I never had to deal with HK service as they are not my rifles and my own HK's have never had an issue. The double optic is just poor and when we switched to the rail the included irons were absolute garbage, the charging handle swivel ends get worn and then stick (pointing out), the stocks are too long for anyone wearing a vest (meaning that every rifle had to be fitted with the short stock), they were ho-hum in the accuracy dept, have limited rail options (only the short screw-on serctions) and on FA they porpoise like a bastard. I (just my opinion) also did not like the slick grip nor the safety position). They are also quite expensive, and the mags were not overly durable (the joining nibs always broke off). They were however very reliable, and the trigger was decent if not remarkable. They aren't BAD, just lackluster. Sorry if it doesn't mesh with your experience, but IMO the AR is just a better fit for OUR use. We got rid of ours several years ago. At training: 
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