Posted: 7/21/2007 4:59:05 PM
[Last Edit: 1/14/2010 5:54:22 PM by raf]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
If you're not too bright, or wasteful, stop now.
As posted in a couple of other threads, this info is provided for those individuals who wish to use a slightly modified 10-22 as a stand-in trainer (at 25M) for their .30 cal. MBRS, and those who wish to save some SERIOUS money. This is NOT a tack-driving Match rifle, but neither does it cost Match rifle prices. It is plenty accurate to do its' intended job, with the bonus of needing a lot less cleaning than Match-chambered 10-22s. Note that the 10-22, with Tech Sights closely mimics the manual-of-arms of the M1A, and is still close to that of the Garand. Most importantly, the sight picture is identical to that of the M1A, M1, AR, and FAL. Mods are drop-in, so gunsmithing is zero.
BTW, I might mention that I have a DSA StG58A, w/aluminum lower, self-made Ambi mag release, self-made Ambi safety, Izzy bolt and bolt-handle, and many other mods, including rear sight mods, handguard heatshielding mods, and lots others. Most of 'em are far in the past, and not accesible, but I've done it, been there as far as most mods to Fals go. There you go........
You FALers might want to buy a Butler Creek folding stock for the pistol grip. Some say the Choate folder is GTG, but I can't say. Go stainless, and a soon to be banned item.
This rifle also makes a great starter rifle when introducing someone to shooting. The more shooters out there, the more people to stand up for the RKBA, right?
It's also a great loaner. If someone's rifle croaks, or they forget something essential, just hand them the 10-22 and some ammo. Problem solved.
Some folks may question the 25M training distance. This distance was formerly called the 'Thousand Inch" range, and was used by the US military for decades as a primary training range, with .22LR, back when marksmanship was emphasized. Everything learned on the 25m range WILL translate directly when shooting at longer ranges. The secret is to simply reduce the size of the target. A 1" square at 25M represents the same MOA as a 4" square at 100M.
If you usually shoot a FAL, AR, or other rifle that has a pistol grip, may I suggest a Butler Creek stainless steel aftermarket folder stock? Before you buy the BC, try the standard Ruger synthetic stock. Studies have shown that basic marksmanship, sight picture, and trigger feel/pull are way more important than the stock configuration. Still, if you must have a pistol grip, the BS is one sturdy unit, and reasonably priced. Put a length of grey closed-cell foam pipe insulation over the metal part of the buttstock to make things easier on your cheek.
First of all, you should shoot your stock 10-22 a good bit to make sure there are no problems present that would require you to send the thing back for warranty service. DO NOT modify your rifle until you are certain that it runs properly. Use the OEM mags while doing this, maybe trying out some others.
Very likely there will be no problems, but in doing all this shooting you should be trying out as many different types of ammo as possible to see which one(s) your rifle prefers.
I have had good luck with CCI Blaser ammo, and a post on www.rimfirecentral.com ranks it highly in terms of consistency. No telling what your rifle will like.
I urge you to not succumb to the idea of instantly accessorizing the rifle. You will be spending money blindly without a good idea of what you, and your rifle, really need.
Most likely, unless you are a good shooter (can consistently shoot groups an inch or under at 25M from prone, NOT benched), the rifle will shoot better, AS-IS, than you can, assuming you find an ammo it likes.
Keep in mind that many aftermarket barrels are Match-chambered, which will prove to be problematic with some types of ammo, and WILL require frequent cleaning, especially of the chamber. Ruger says to clean after 50 rds on their Match-chambered bull-barreled version, else functioning and accuracy problems will crop up. I would expect the same of other Match-chambered barrels. Another fact to keep in mind when purchasing a 10-22 is that ALL standard 10-22 component parts are available directly from Ruger (save, of course, the FFL-only receiver). NOT SO the Ruger Match 10-22s. Some parts are factory-fitted only, so consider this when planning your purchase.
Your rifle will like some aftermarket mags, and dislike others. I have used Butler Creek Steel Lips 25-rd mags with no problems. YMMV. Anything longer will be problematic in prone position. Hopefully your rifle will like a mag that fits some mfr's mag-loading device. These little contraptions are worth their weight in gold in time saved and fumbling avoided. The less time spent on chores like loading mags, the more spent on important stuff, like training. You should get one if only to avoid lead contamination on your fingers. Don't laugh––I know of a couple long-time lead bullet, indoor shooters who were diagnosed with incipient lead poisoning.
If all aftermarket mags fail, a couple of OEM Ruger 10-rd mags clipped together bottom-to-bottom with a device made by E&L Manufacturing will always prove utterly reliable. Whatever you do, do this. This will prove to be your "can't fail" mag assy. Some folks use only this set-up.
Have a glance at this thread (which started this whole concept):www.rwva.org/yabbse/index.php?topic=1149.0 (you might have to register to view). It contains all the info on 10-22 mods you are likely to need, unless you really want a dedicated Match rifle (most likely you don't). While you're at it, look at www.appleseedinfo.org/smf. These are the Appleseed folks you might have heard about, and on the site can be found very detailed and full instructions on becoming a Rifleman.
Frankly, there are lots of people who pay good money to learn what these folks offer for free on their site, and I STRONGLY urge you (and others) to read, practice, and learn. What with the current ammo shortage, a LOT of folks are turning up at Appleseeds with .22s.
FWIW, I use my 10-22 (slightly modified–– maybe $60 total, exclusive of mags and loader) for about 75% of my training, with a once-a-month MBR workout at distance. HUGE savings on ammo cost, and wear and tear on my MBRs. What you learn at 25M works out perfectly at 200M and beyond. BTDT, and it WORKS! Fundamentals work out at both 25M and 500M. I made Rifleman (229/250) with it after practicing A LOT, and no reason why you or anyone else can't do the same. FYI, sighting-in your 10-22 at 25M means you are also sighted-in at 100M. Cool, Huh?
Folks, why waste scarce and expensive 7.62 ammo when the same training (and learning) can be done with a .22LR at 25 M?
You can do most all of your training for less than you can reload, for heaven's sake!
The Tech-sights are definitely the way to go for any iron-sighted 10-22 or SKS. Mostly I use a 1-3X Weaver scope I bought for $10 at a flea market. When the Scout scope mount for the 10-22 becomes available later this year, then I will switch over to that.
I use a GI web sling, as my 10-22 is set up as a training stand-in for my MBRs which also use a GI sling. I simply bought a 1-1/4" QD sling swivel kit made by Uncle Mike's which has both machine-screw and wood-screw type studs. Your kit may differ if you have a different stock.
The GI web sling is inexpensive and very versatile, being useable in all shooting positions with a minimum of fuss, bother, and expense. You want either the cotton M1 sling, or better still, the nylon M-14 sling. Both have quick-detach hooks on the butt end of the sling.
On the fore-end of my synthetic-stocked 10-22, I used a machine-screw threaded stud, washer, and nylock nut due to the thin plastic of the fore-end. On a presumeably thicker wooden fore-end, a wood-screw type stud would be fine assuming that enough wood was available for acceptable thread engagement, and that the screw was not too long so as to hit the barrel. You can trim the screw, but I would not use a wood-type screw whose thread's engagement were 1/2" or less. If the fore-end of the stock is really thin, use a machine-screw stud, big washer, and nylock nut. On the buttstock of either model of stock a wood-type screw will do, although it is a good idea to pack a bit of epoxy plumber's putty around the portion of the screw which protrudes into the interior of the synthetic stock both to reinforce the screw's exposed threads and thus enhancing its' grip, and also to prevent the screw tip from puncturing the baggies containing the goodies stored within the hollow stock. The buttplate on the Ruger stocks is glued on; just carefully pry it off (using a couple of wide-bladed screwdrivers) to access inside of stock. More on this below.
What I did to my OEM SS synthetic stocked Ruger 10-22:
Recall that my goal was to create an acceptable stand-in for my MBRs which I could use for 25M training at much reduced ammo expense, with no gunsmithing, and at the least overall cost. YMMV.
1) Installed Volquartsen Hammer kit plus extended mag release. Note that there some issues ( Volquartsen trigger return spring, IIRC–– use OEM Ruger for complete reliability) with the above kit that are discussed in the link provided above. I installed as per advice in link, and no problems. The trigger is clean, crisp, and has a pull weight very close to that of my MBRs (whose triggers have also been cleaned up and reduced a bit in pull weight). Exactly what I wanted.
2)Installed auto-bolt release. Saves a LOT of fumbling, and helps replicate the MBR. Wish there was an auto bolt hold-open device that was reliable, sturdy, and didn't require either special or modified mags, but maybe someday...
3) Installed 1-1/4" sling swivels and studs as mentioned above, plus GI web sling. Again, this was to replicate the set-up on the MBRs.
4)Seperated glued-on OEM buttplate (still use it, just now it's unglued) from stock so I could stuff the hollow stock with baggied spare parts (bought a few firing pins, extractors, and various other springs and etc. from Ruger), plus an emergency, modified M-16 cleaning kit. The rifle now has, self-contained, anything it is likely to ever need to repair it in the unlikely event that it malfunctions. A little weight in the butt shifts the Center of Balance to the rear, making the whole assembly a tad "livelier" feeling. I could have re-secured the OEM buttplate with SS screws, but as I wanted a bit longer Length Of Pull, I installed a Pachmayr slip-on buttpad to both lengthen the LOP and secure the OEM buttplate. I used a .45 ACP shell to cut out a nice, round, tear-free hole in the slip-on butt pad for the sling stud which would otherwise have been covered by the slip-on buttpad.
5)While breaking-in, ammo evaluating, and practicing last winter (yes, I shot outdoors during Jan and Feb; I knew I had to practice for the upcoming Appleseed), I noticed that the OEM bolt handle was way too small for gloved or mittened hands. Solution was/is to buy a bolt handle assy for a 12-22 MAGNUM rifle from Ruger, and swap out just the handle part whilst keeping all other 10-22LR parts unaltered. A fairly simple job, but pay attention in keeping the various parts separate. You want to use the 10-22Mag bolt handle ONLY, while retaining the 10-22 rod and spring. Result works flawlessly and is closer to MBR size than was the OEM part. Works great with bare hands and/or gloves, and is close to the MiA/M1 bolt handle.
6) Installed TechSights iron sights on the rifle. Simply the ONLY way to go. Front sight accepts all AR-style posts, and the rear base with stock A1 AR-style aperture will accept any AR-style flip apertute and is also configurable to suit the operator. Mimics the OEM sight picture on the AR/M1/M1A/FAL, and is of top-notch quality. Installed on-hand conventional scope and rings, plus QD cheek riser to compensate for height of scope over OEM iron sights.
7) Installed RamLine vented rear handguard over barrel. Nothing functional here, but it does look better and the operator's hand cannot contact a potentially hot barrel.
8) Last but not least. I shot a brick through the rifle as de-lubed as possible and without cleaning. After complete teardown, I carefully filed/sanded/stoned any high spots I could find on the reciprocating and static parts that showed wear/rubbing/interferance marks, and also filed/sanded/stoned/ relieved any other areas that I could find that seemed to have any rough surfaces that might affect function.. Whole "smoothing-out" process might have taken a half hour from beginning of tear-down to re-assembled state. Just a few spots to touch up, and I was done. YMMV. Mostly used a fine sanding disc on a Dremel, and a couple of fine jeweler's files. If you don't have such, some fine sandpaper will do.
9) To-do list: Butler Creek SS folding stock to replicate AR/FAL pistol grip configuration, and Scout scoping the rifle when SS mount becomes available.
Now I realize that all this seems a bit much, but most of the mods were drop-in, and the rest very straightforward. Remember, though, that I wanted a stand-in trainer for my MBRs that had the feel and functioning that the MBRs had. Insofar as technically possible, I have succeeded, and my tweaked 10-22 has, since purchased, not only paid for itself but also all other accessory purchases in ammo costs saved. I am now on the plus side of the equation, with NO training foregone, and wear and tear on my MBRS much reduced, to say nothing of the savings on now expensive .308 ammo. Your purposes may be different, and so your tweaks and mods may be different. Good luck, and please remember to read the links I gave above FULLY.
It's now July, and everything I said above has still proven true. This is a good deal, guys, IF YOU'RE SMART.
I have come to think of the Boresnake as a nearly ideal cleaning device for the 10-22. Easy, cheap, simple and no damage to the critical muzzle.
Oh, one other thing: My failure to max out the Appleseed I attended was my fault, and in NO way that of the rifle, ammo used, or any of the tweaks I had done. YMMV.
Disclaimer: No financial interest in any of the companies mentioned above.
Posted: 6/29/2008 11:42:50 AM
fyi- those of you that install tech-sights on their 10/22 may find that the stock front sight post is not tall enough. DPMS has an oversize front sight post that works well to fix this problem.
also keep in mind elevation adjustment is possible on both the front and rear sight on the tech-sight.
Posted: 7/1/2008 3:40:01 PM
[Last Edit: 7/1/2008 3:55:53 PM by raf]
Good info, C. Most any AR front post can be substituted for the standard post in the TechSights kit. Same thing is true of the rear sight, although that is much more of a hassle.
I'm surprised that few FALers have responded to this thread. I would have thought that good training done cheap would have been as useful to them as anyone else.
If the 10-22's lack of a pistol grip is an issue to you, let me allay your concerns
In my experience over the years, what matters most to shooters is sight type/sight picture and trigger feel/weight-of-pull. The rest of it all is pretty much secondary to someone seriously wanting to improve their marksmanship skills.
The TechSight kit solves the sight picture problem, and the standard 10-22 trigger is a fair duplicate of most mil triggers, if not a tad better. If you have improved the trigger on your FAL, then an improved trigger on your 10-22 is an inexpensive option.
While the FAL/10-22 safties are incompatible, such is not important on the range when your rifle is either shooting or on the ground, unloaded with bolt open. The bolt system, I fear, is totally different, but not impossibly so, I would think, given the millions of 10-22s sold. Might even be an advance for lefties. Mag presentation and insertion is similar, and with an extended mag release on the 10-22, again not too different.
I have had some folks complain about fumbling for controls that were not there, but seldom have I had a complaint about the lack of a pistol grip on the range. Most people seem to adapt to the lack of a PG pretty quickly.
If the lack of a PG disturbs you, there are a number of PG-equipped 10-22 stocks on the market nowadays, some of them including telestocks maybe with other bells and whistles.
The Butler Creek stainless steel folder is one such PG stock with which I am familiar, and it is very stout indeed. It is one of the very few folders that I would consider a possible door-basher/impact weapon when fixed open.
Anyway, I am here to answer any questions you FALers might have.
By way of credentials, I developed and posted here and on FAL files, long ago, detailed word descriptions on an ambi safety and ambi mag release, along with a discussion on the effects on accuracy of various screw-on/slip-on FAL muzzle devices.
My StG58A, bought long ago from DSA for $630 OTD has been modified with an alloy lower, Tapco SAW grip, and Improved trigger group assy(name escapes me right now, but you all know them). Sold off the bipod, affixed a GI nylon sling, and with an ejector mod, it's GTG. There's more mods, of course, but that is another story.
IOW, I'm a FALer.