|
|
Posted: 6/2/2009 4:09:32 PM
[Last Edit: 10/8/2012 8:33:42 PM by Dog1]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
Since it seems that the same questions are posted over and over again about buying, getting ammo and spare parts about a M1, I though that a single post with input from other M1 guys, can help the new M1 owner or a person looking to buy one. Looking to buy one? Then look at the The Civilian Marksmanship Program. The CMP sells M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, M1903. M1903a3, M1917 and .22 target surplus and civilian rifles. They also have ammo, tools, stock sets, barrels, and other items for the M1 and M1 carbine shooter. They have 2 stores, the North Store, located at Port Clinton, Ohio,-Home of Camp Perry and the South Store, located at Annistion Alabama. North Store- North Store - Camp Perry, Ohio
Port Clinton, Ohio at Camp Perry, Bldg 2500 STORE HOURS Wednesday - Saturday 8:30 am to 4:00 pm. South Store- South Store - Anniston, Alabama
3016 Red Morris Parkway, Anniston, AL 36207 The phone for the Store in Anniston is (256) 835-8455 ext 1138 STORE HOURS Wednesday - Saturday from 8:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. CST. To meet the requirements to buy from the CMP, read this-CMP Eligibility Requirements for Purchase Both CMP stores are filled with helpful staff that will help you pick a M1. The CMP has a discussion forum too-CMP Forum The Garand Collectors Association is a excellent source for info regarding M1 Garands. They have a magazine with tons of info that you get 4 times a year. By joining the GCA, you also meet one of the requirements for buying from the CMP, all for $25 a year. If you are wondering if the M1 you are looking at was a demilled receiver that was rewelded, look here- Fulton Armory Reweld Receiver FAQ Ok..now you got your M1, but you want to know more. Like to read? Well I do and here is some great books for you. Scott Duff The M1 Garand: World War II Volume 1 The M1 Garand: Post World War II Volume 2 The M1 Garand: Owner's Guide The M1 Garand Complete Assembly Guide The M1 Garand: Serial Numbers & Data Sheets-Great for taking to the gunshow or one of the CMP stores. North Cape Publications M1 Garand 1936 to 1957, 5th Edition, Revised & Expanded-This is my favorite book for looking up serial numbers, part numbers, ect. Great for wondering if that trigger housing matches the year your gun was made. Jerry Kuhnhausen-A great shop manual for the M1 as well as the M-14. Spare Parts and other items for the M1- Now you have the M1, you bought some books. Now it's time to change out the recoil spring. Why? Well, it a low cost thing to do and more than often, then recoil spring in your M1 might be 30, 40 or even 60 years old. Some spare parts suppliers- Orion 7 Bill Ricca Fulton's Armory Garand Guy Smith's and refinishing- Dean's Gun Restoration Suff's Parkerizing Warbird's Custom Guns Orion 7 Fulton's Armory FAQ- Can I shoot other ammo in my M1 other than the surplus M2 ball?-You can, but you need an adjustable gas plug like the Shuster M1 Adjustable Gas Plug or the MCCann Gas Plug. But why, with surplus M2 ball still being cheaper than most other rifle ammo today. What is ME/TE?-ME is Muzzle Erosion. Because of the multible sectioned GI cleaning rod, issued and used by the troops, the muzzle of a barrel can become worn. Using a ME guage, you can see how worn the muzzle crown is. TE is Throat Erosion. This happens to all barrels. Muzzle Erosion is important to accuracy, being the crown need to be uniformed. Even if the muzzle is a bit worn, a good 'smith can re-crown for fairly cheap, and maybe save an otherwise serviceable barrel, not to mention a fair bit of money. Lets be clear-You can have a M1 with a high ME and TE and the rifle can still shoot well for a 60 year old rifle with a wartime barrel. I have a Jan of '41 M1 with a May of '45 barrel that does not guage that well on the muzzle, but still shoots pretty good. Before you get too hung up on TE/ME, shoot your M1 first and see what it does. Bayonets- Now you want a Bayonet to go with that M1...Here is a couple of things that can help you in your search for the right one- http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayonet_points.htm The history of M1 Garand Bayonets by Robert Gibson –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– There are actually five (5) distinct types of bayonets that are "correct" for a U.S. Rifle, Cal. .30, M1, depending upon which was authorized for a particular point in time. MODEL 1905 BAYONET, WWI-Era: Originally designed for M1903 and M1917 US Rifles, this was first type to see use on the Garand. They usually came with a canvas covered, wooden scabbard. The bayonet had a bright blade until about 1917, after which they were parkerized. Later, during WWII, almost all of the earlier "bright blade" 1905 bayonets were parkerized too since it cut down on reflection in combat. These are very hard to find and are very collectable. The blade was 16" in length and each bayonet had its own serial number, along with a manufacturer's name or code and date stamp. The grips were made of wood. MODEL 1905 BAYONET, WWII-Era: These are identical to the WWI bayonets except they were parkerized from the start, are rougher in appearance and finish and were equipped with black or reddish plastic grips rather than wooden ones. They have no serial numbers and are dated either "1942" or "1943." Many call this the Model 1942 bayonet, however this isn't the official name. These bayonets came with the M3 olive-drab fiberglass scabbard. I've not run across either WWI or WWII M1905 bayonets in some time except in private collections, and those weren't for sale at any price. BAYONET, M1: In mid-1943 a new bayonet was ordered with shorter blade of 10" length. It was identical to the WWII 1905 except for the 10" blade. A shorter M7 olive-drab metal/fiberglass scabbard came with it. A very few were dated 1943; the vast majority are undated. MODEL 1905E1 BAYONET: In 1944-1946 many of the WWI and WWII 1905 bayonets were reworked by cutting them down to a 10" length. Depending upon who did the modification, the ends were reground to either a spear or clip point. Any wooden grips were exchanged for black or reddish plastic types. This bayonet would fit into an M7 scabbard, or into a modified M3 (cut down to the shorter length). BAYONET, M5: In 1954, the bayonet for the M1 Garand was completely redesigned. It came with a 7" blade and was made in several sub-types: M5, M5-1 and M5A1, which reflect just minor differences in construction. It used the same M8A1 scabbard as issued with the M4 Carbine bayonet. Note on the M5/M5-1/M5A1: "In Kuhnhausen's book the M5 and M5A1 are almost identical, with the differences being: (1) the grind of the cutting edge on the M5 goes straight all the way to the guard while the M5A1 curves to nothingness at the guard, and (2) on the M5 the spring that activates the lug release button is at right angles to the button and the tang, while on the M5A1 the tang is modified slightly with an angled surface so the spring is angled toward the point of the knife at about a 45 degree angle instead of at right angles. A third difference is the lug release piece. On the M5 it is a folded piece of sheet steel that when viewed from the front forms a U shape, while on the M5A1 though it is almost identical, there is a fold of metal to enclose the front of the button at the front of the button piece." ––Frank Burke The most desirable are the WWI Model 1905 bayonets. Two years ago I was offered a WWII Model 1905 for $90 but I passed. Today I'm given to understand the price would be much, much higher, if you could find one for sale to start with. Yes, I've kicked myself over this ever since. I wouldn't even hazard a guess on a price for an WWI Model 1905. There are many 7" M5 types around today. Many of these are repro/clones that were made by the ROK (Republic of Korea) for use when their armed forces carried the M1 Garand. These clone M5 series bayonets can be found most anywhere at quite low prices. I've seen them running well under $20. Hope this info helps. Note on Korean War M1 Bayonets: The correct bayonet for the U.S. Rifle, Cal. .30, M1 for the KOREAN WAR PERIOD, 1950 thru 1953, could actually be either of the following; note that both are "hold overs" from World War II. Bayonet, M1 with M7 fiberglass scabbard: It has a 10-inch blade. The fuller was 5.75-inches long and began 3-inches from the point. The blade tip ended in a spear point and plastic grips, black or brownish in color, were installed. Production of this bayonet type began in mid-1943 during World War II (as mentioned above). Bayonet, M1905E1 with M7 fiberglass scabbard: Between 1944 and 1946 the US Govt modified many of the earlier 16-inch M1905 Type 1 and Type 2 bayonets by cutting the blades to 10-inch length and regrinding the tips to either spear or clip points. They're easily ID'd since the blood groove runs out past the blade tip. There is some evidence to support the claim that once these essentially World War I vintage bayonets were modified to the 10-inch blade length they became mixed with the Bayonet, M1 in the US Govt logistical supply system of the day and were also called Bayonet, M1. Technically this was incorrect as the official designation is M1905E1. Many of the 16-inch M3 scabbards that matched the 16-inch M1905 bayonets were modified to accept the shorter 10-inch M1 and M1905E1 bayonets. If the correct bayonet used during the Korean War (1950 to 1953) is what you're looking for, you want either the M1 or M1905E1 with 10-inch blade. Many are going to tell you the Bayonet, M5 with its 7-inch blade is the correct Korean War bayonet to match the M1 Garand. This just simply is not true. This shorter-bladed bayonet wasn't developed until 1954, the year after the end of open combat in Korea. This newer 7-inch bayonet (with the M8A1 scabbard) did indeed make it to Korea where it saw use for something like 20 years (maybe longer) with both US and ROK armed forces, however it wasn't on the scene until after the end of open hostilities. For those rifles that may have fought in combat in Korea between 1950-1953 then the M1 or M1905E1 are "correct." If the rifle served afterwards then the M5 is probably a safe choice. Naturally there would've been some degree of overlap until such time as the older M1/M1905E1 types were phased out and replaced by M5 bayonet type; maybe a year or two? Who really knows for sure. Hope this is of some help to you. Robert Gibson Some odds and ends from the M1 Garand world- http://usriflecal30m1.com/Default.aspx Memorable Places M1 Garand.net www.nicolausassociates.com M1 Blueprints http://www.dogfightink.com/ has some really nice M1 prints-
The Internet is a wonderful place for info, some very good, some not so. I have tried to list what I have learned through books, from the GCA, the CMP forums, and here. If I'm wrong, please correct me so I can correct my post. If ANYONE has anything to add-Post it and I will update my OP. I would like any input from anyone. Thanks! |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/2/2009 4:36:23 PM
Wow brother great info
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/2/2009 4:47:03 PM
Originally Posted By Dog1:
So..you want to buy a M1 Garand.. No.. but I would trade off all that I have listed for sale in the EE for a real nice one BTW, great post! |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/2/2009 4:57:51 PM
Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
Originally Posted By Dog1:
So..you want to buy a M1 Garand.. No.. but I would trade off all that I have listed for sale in the EE for a real nice one BTW, great post! Thanks...I can't help you there...they are the the short list of guns I'd keep! |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/2/2009 5:26:47 PM
That's a very informative post, and well-done.
My only minor criticisms are that IMHO muzzle wear is a bit more important than you state, and you neglected to mention the McCann gas device along with the Schuster. Even if the muzzle is a bit worn, a good 'smith can re-crown for fairly cheap, and maybe save an otherwise serviceable barrel, not to mention a fair bit of money. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/2/2009 5:37:16 PM
Originally Posted By raf:
That's a very informative post, and well-done. My only minor criticisms are that IMHO muzzle wear is a bit more important than you state, and you neglected to mention the McCann gas device along with the Schuster. Even if the muzzle is a bit worn, a good 'smith can re-crown for fairly cheap, and maybe save an otherwise serviceable barrel, not to mention a fair bit of money. Thanks...corrected the gas plug post and updated the ME part. Thanks!! |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/2/2009 5:46:52 PM
Nice post, needs a tack!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/2/2009 5:49:16 PM
Great post!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/2/2009 5:49:32 PM
Very nice post! Well done.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/2/2009 6:17:19 PM
good post !
thanks for taking the time to help those interested in the M1. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/2/2009 8:10:01 PM
Thanks to all of you!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/2/2009 8:26:44 PM
Yup, good post!
I just bought a post war all correct HRA from Tony @ Orion 7 the other day. I won't hesitate to recommend him for rifles or parts/service. I will post pics when it arrives next week. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/2/2009 8:38:45 PM
Great post. Deserves a tack.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/3/2009 11:45:18 AM
Outstanding job, this should really serve as a great resource for anyone looking to get started or help maintain their new M1's or any treasures from the CMP.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/3/2009 6:26:34 PM
[Last Edit: 6/3/2009 6:33:28 PM by Dog1]
Thanks guys!
I added some small stuff to the post. If anyone has anything to add to this, please don't be shy. The more info the better we can help the new guys. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/3/2009 7:56:57 PM
Most excellent post, Dog1.
There are two types of people in this world; those that already have Garands and those who are still shopping for their first one. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/3/2009 8:13:02 PM
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
Most excellent post, Dog1. There are two types of people in this world; those that already have Garands and those who are still shopping for their first one. Or their 5th, 10th or 15th one..
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/6/2009 9:23:49 PM
[Last Edit: 6/6/2009 9:28:59 PM by drshame]
More M1 Info:
http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/ It's also got tips on the care & feeding of your "New" 60 year old M1...how to clean them up from their long-storage cosmoline and even how to refinish and steam out dents on the old stocks and clean them up "Like New".
1953 CMP Springfield Garand +1 for don't get too obsessed with TE and ME...see how they shoot before worrying about a new barrel.. Learn to love "Enblocs" and "be the ping".
1943 CMP Springfield Service Grade Garand, 1943 Springfield Barrel, Lockbar sights, SA/GAW Stock. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/6/2009 9:55:32 PM
This is a great thread, way to go Dog and the other who have supplied great info, unlike me who just asks questions :D
preciate it guys. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/7/2009 7:50:19 AM
[Last Edit: 7/29/2009 10:43:00 PM by panzersergeant]
This is a great essay that I found on the web somewhere a while back. I wish I knew who wrote it so I could give him his props.
ETA recently found out this was written a few years back by a member here whose screen name is "Houston's_Problem." Thanks HP! Why I like Garands It satisfies the eyes. It looks warm, robust, serious, and capable. It looks like victory, freedom and liberation. It looks friendly. It does not look evil. It does not look delicate. It does not look cheap. It satisfies the ears. The clock like schnick when you pull the bolt back. The warning click as you shove home another 8 round clip. The massive solid slam as the bolt rams another round into the chamber. The deep throated bark of the muzzle as you fire away. The final Ka-Ting as the empty clip is ejected. The horrifying scream of agony as the guy four benches down learns never to hesitate when removing his thumb from a freshly loaded clip. It satisfies the touch. The warm sculpted wood. The curve of the stock. The curl of the bolt lug. The take-up of the trigger. The robust, solid, yet unsharp push of the kick. It satisfies the soul. It is the defender of liberty. It is the champion of victory. It is the guarantor of freedom. It will not be used to rob banks. No terrorist will unleash it on a crowd of unarmed victims. No gangster will use it to shoot little girls while missing his imagined gangster enemies. It is the good guy's weapon. It is just the ticket to liberate a country. It opens the doors of concentration camps. It saves people from tyranny. It topples dictators. It squashes fascists. It pushes communists behind their walls. It defends the homeland. It provides for the common defense. It is necessary for the security of a free state. It brings joy to women and children as they fire it. It strikes fear in the hearts of those that oppose freedom. It makes friends at the shooting range. It reminds us of the cost of freedom. Its lavish expense is appropriately justified. It is your duty as an American to own one. Get one now. Buy ammo. Use it. Never mind the price, find the best one you can. You have no excuse. The time is now!!!!!!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/7/2009 3:34:52 PM
[Last Edit: 6/7/2009 3:44:04 PM by raf]
Since the OP asked, a couple of points:
1) I very much doubt the M1917 Enfield bayonet fits any other US rifle. 2) The South Koreans took USGI M1 bayonets and shortened them to about M5A1 length to fit re-worked M1 bayo scabbards with pressed metal sheaths for the blade, and the original US forged part that accepts and locks the blade. Rare, but rather nicely done. I have one, and it is not correct for any US-issued rifle, but entirely serviceable for other purposes. 3) I'm not sure where this fits in, but it is essential information. Any owner of any rifle that must be cleaned from the muzzle, like the M1 (but there are many others) should consider an appropriate-length coated cleaning rod, which rod is free to rotate within the handle, AND a rifle-appropriate muzzle guide as cleaning essentials. My guess is that more M1 barrels have been ruined by poor cleaning technique/tools than by being shot out. The key to cleaning such rifles is to PULL the brush or patch from the chamber towards the muzzle, and NEVER to push the rod+attachments into the muzzle. All the good owners manuals should mention this, but it bears mentioning again for those who can't or won't buy such. 4) Try this site, and look for Jouster's forums down near the bottom. Their originator, Culver, is one hell of a guy. http://www.milsurps.com/index.php |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/7/2009 3:59:03 PM
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 4:12:40 PM by raf]
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
This is a great essay that I found on the web somewhere a while back. I wish I knew who wrote it so I could give him his props. Why I like Garands It satisfies the eyes. It looks warm, robust, serious, and capable. It looks like victory, freedom and liberation. It looks friendly. It does not look evil. It does not look delicate. It does not look cheap. It satisfies the ears. The clock like schnick when you pull the bolt back. The warning click as you shove home another 8 round clip. The massive solid slam as the bolt rams another round into the chamber. The deep throated bark of the muzzle as you fire away. The final Ka-Ting as the empty clip is ejected. The horrifying scream of agony as the guy four benches down learns never to hesitate when removing his thumb from a freshly loaded clip. It satisfies the touch. The warm sculpted wood. The curve of the stock. The curl of the bolt lug. The take-up of the trigger. The robust, solid, yet unsharp push of the kick. It satisfies the soul. It is the defender of liberty. It is the champion of victory. It is the guarantor of freedom. It will not be used to rob banks. No terrorist will unleash it on a crowd of unarmed victims. No gangster will use it to shoot little girls while missing his imagined gangster enemies. It is the good guy's weapon. It is just the ticket to liberate a country. It opens the doors of concentration camps. It saves people from tyranny. It topples dictators. It squashes fascists. It pushes communists behind their walls. It defends the homeland. It provides for the common defense. It is necessary for the security of a free state. It brings joy to women and children as they fire it. It strikes fear in the hearts of those that oppose freedom. It makes friends at the shooting range. It reminds us of the cost of freedom. Its lavish expense is appropriately justified. It is your duty as an American to own one. Get one now. Buy ammo. Use it. Never mind the price, find the best one you can. You have no excuse. The time is now!!!!!! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/panzersergeant/CMP%20South%20Store/CMPandHelenGavisitSept07032.jpg That's a nice quote, and thanks for sharing it. Looking at that rack of M1s reminds me of old times when I was an armorer for an RI State-Chartered Militia and maintained all their small arms, M1s included. I only got three from the DCM–– now CMP First one was a WW II era Springer, rebulit to "as-new" in 1965 for the Navy. Un-issued. Since converted to 7,62 NATO. IIRC, $350. Second was an M1D for $600––won the Lottery the DCM held. Unissued. I've never fired it, as it's a collector's item, and I've other M1s to play with. Third, and last one was a very late S/N HRA with correct Birch stock. That was one that would be a "Collector" grade with today's grading/pricing system, but I got in under the wire just by asking for "A nice HRA, please". I don't think it was ever carried, let alone shot, and the MW/TE figures bear that out. IIRC, $450 or $500, don't recall. I used (with CO's permission) the M1s I had in stock to restore the First and Third rifles to as-manufactured condition. with Duff's books, I didn't need much at all, especially for the HRA. Can't say it was un-issued, as the op-rod handle has a little wear on some of the high spots. I quit then, as I figured I had all I really needed, and had just about used up as much luck as I wanted to spare. You all can have the rest, and good luck to you. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/7/2009 7:45:48 PM
[Last Edit: 6/7/2009 7:48:01 PM by jimmy2spot]
New to this forum and have a bad case of M1 fever. Looking to buy my first. I am eligible to buy from the CMP but don't want to wait 4-6 months and I"m frustrated by the wildly varying prices and conditions of the few rifles I've seen. I don't need a match grade or museum piece. Looking in the $700 - $1k range. Where else can I buy with confidence? What to be aware of? Gunbroker has a lot and I see a few at gun shows. Thanks.
ETA: Dog1, that's a sweet looking Garand. What's her story? Current price on a similar rifle? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/7/2009 7:55:00 PM
Originally Posted By jimmy2spot:
New to this forum and have a bad case of M1 fever. Looking to buy my first. I am eligible to buy from the CMP but don't want to wait 4-6 months and I"m frustrated by the wildly varying prices and conditions of the few rifles I've seen. I don't need a match grade or museum piece. Looking in the $700 - $1k range. Where else can I buy with confidence? What to be aware of? Gunbroker has a lot and I see a few at gun shows. Thanks. ETA: Dog1, that's a sweet looking Garand. What's her story? Current price on a similar rifle? Thanks...That one is Jan of 1941, has the correct trigger group for that serial number range. I paid $600 for it at a gunshow. It's a great shooter. My other one is March of 1942. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/12/2009 1:13:37 PM
Originally Posted By raf:
Since the OP asked, a couple of points: 1) I very much doubt the M1917 Enfield bayonet fits any other US rifle. The M1917 bayonet is also used on U.S. Martial trenchguns fitted with a bayonet lug, however. -Mark |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/12/2009 3:44:59 PM
Originally Posted By jimmy2spot:
New to this forum and have a bad case of M1 fever. Looking to buy my first. I am eligible to buy from the CMP but don't want to wait 4-6 months and I"m frustrated by the wildly varying prices and conditions of the few rifles I've seen. I don't need a match grade or museum piece. Looking in the $700 - $1k range. Where else can I buy with confidence? What to be aware of? Gunbroker has a lot and I see a few at gun shows. Thanks. ETA: Dog1, that's a sweet looking Garand. What's her story? Current price on a similar rifle? You cant buy a Garand by the way it looks. You could be looking at a reparkerized worn out rifle that is nothing more than a fancy boat anchor. Do yourself a favor, send in your order for a CMP Service Grade and a bunch of ammo. Set back and wait. You will be sorry you didnt when the supply is gone |
|
|