Originally Posted By Gorilla:
Here's the basic step-by-step to install a ball detent anti-bounce device in a Ciener kit.  This is about as easy as this type of setup can be.  While I did it in a vertical mill, a drill press would work fine.  All you need is a 5/32" drill and a 1/8" ball, cannibalized from a ball bearing or similar.

Thanks for the infor. on the Ciener kit, modified mine and it runs a whole lot better. not 100% , it is probably the Rem bulk pack from Wal-mart  I am using. Thanks again

Originally Posted By Green0: Gorilla  I just took a look at this.   That baffle stack is sweet.  That's impressive machining.  It should be better suited to 5.56 than .22lr with all that room for blow by.  Also I think the large expansion chamber hurts the .22lr suppression a little.   That looks like a really high-flow design.  If it got good sound reduction in 5.56, it should provide low back pressure too. Can you heat treat mild steel?  That [heat treating, case hardening or melonite finishing might help you on the 5.56 end in terms of errosion resistance.

Thank you GreenO.  I could case-harden baffle #1, which is mild steel.  A couple of hours in a serious carbon pack would deliver a nice deep case.  It's a good thought, thanks for suggesting it.

I think sometime this summer I'll rig up an adapter and try the can on a 5.56.  Because I made the threading and the mount very proprietary, it'll take some work but it's certainly possible.  The tube walls are plenty thick, and I don't think there'll be any problems.

Some additional post-script thoughts - I am very happy with this suppressor.  I had it out at the TX ARFCOM Tom Bean shoot, and it worked very well.  There are some things I'd change:

- If your can is dedicated for lower pressure rounds like .22 or a pistol round, I'd personally still go with steel end caps with either an aluminum or steel tube, but make the tube thinner than mine.  A thin tube with threaded ends for the caps will require a finer-pitched thread than the one I used, which was 24 TPI - far too coarse.  32, 36, or 40 would be more appropriate, but watch out for cross-threading or anything else which would possibly bugger the threads, as you will be using them extensively while you're fitting the stack.

- My expansion chamber is inefficient, heavy, and bulky.  I could have done a better job.

- This stack works fine, but some of the one-piece stacks guys have posted in this and other threads would work just as well and be easier to boot.

- If you machine a suppressor, you will definitely want to be able to disassemble it for cleaning and mods, without having to beat the stack with a hammer or soak it in chemicals for a week.  However you engineer it, set it up with sleeving or spacers that will prevent the gasses and crud from gluing the stack to the walls of the tube.  They may add weight and slightly reduce internal volume, but it's worth it, IMO.

- The bbl thread to can interface will definitely loosen up with repeated mountings.  When you turn the threads, make the initial fit a bit stiff.  After 50 mountings, that stiffness will disappear and it'll be "just right".  For this reason, I'd definitely avoid an aluminum base cap.  Make it steel, and it'll last forever.

Because of the weight of this can, I think I am going to modify the tube by turning it down a bit and thinning out the walls as much as my 24 TPI base and end cap threads will permit.  Perhaps an OD with a step in it might work well.  I am also going to face off the end cap a bit, as it is unnecessarily thick.

I'm still looking at a manufacturer's license, and the thought of legally experimenting and creating an inexpensive, full-sized .22LR AR suppressor has me psyched!  Thanks to all for the encouragement and kind comments over the course of this project.

Gorilla,

What machining equipment did you use?

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos: Gorilla, What machining equipment did you use?

Lathe and mill

A 1950's vintage rebuilt Hardinge HLV-B lathe, and a Chinese 8" X 36" Bridgeport clone.  Despite its Chinese pedigree, the mill is a quality unit.  I've had it for 12 years and have been very happy with it.  You can do good work on Asian machines especially if you invest in quality tooling, like a good Anglock vise, Western-made dividing heads, collets, and cutters, that sort of thing.

I love my 22 gatlin gun www.gatlingguns.com

Originally Posted By harleyrkc: Does anyone have any info on filling out the Form 1 to apply for a license to build a silencer.  It looks as if the form were for an actual firearm.  I'm just curious as to how some of the required fields were filled out.  A close friend and I are going for it while the windows open in michigan.

I also have a few questions for the guys that have had a form1 approved...


line4- how exact does the prototype plans have to be? An I obligated to stick with them or can I make modifications to the design/overall length after recieving the approvial/stamp? Also should I make them with a CAD program or will a simple sketch work?

line4a- manufacturer= my name?

line4b- silencer?

line4d- model= silencer?  length= does this have to be exact or can it be made longer/shorter than listed originally? (within reason)

line4e- length of barrel= N/A?

line4f- overall= again are they wanting an exact measurment?

serial number- can this be alphanumeric?

Also I dont see anywhere on the form for my SSN#.. or is it entered on line 6a "employer ID number"?

I'd like to build a silencer for a 10/22 that looks like a full length bull barrel... If the tube is 20" long and fitted over a 8"barrel, does the tube need to be permanetly attached to the barrel and the baffles removable from the front cap only? It seems if the tube was removable from the barrel, I would also need to register the 10/22 as a SBR.


Or can I just make sure and keep the tube on the gun until the stock is removed?


Sorry for the noob questions guys... just wanted to make sure of these things before I mailed off the forms.

Thanks!!

no fancy write up just a pic of the inside of my new form 1 .22 suppresor


the tube is SS the end caps are as well. the center section is aluminum.

Wouldn't SS for the innards and aluminum for the tube have made a lighter suppressor that would hold up better?

I didn't have any alum tube the right size. and the alum internals should hold up fine to .22 lr. also a ss internal would be a pain to machine and be alot heavier. I've put nearly 450 rds through it 1/2 high velocity and I can't see any wear yet. If I do find some alum tube the right size I might have a local c2 remake it. stupid suppresor rules, the design is like the aac prodigy in that the tube is just a tube , no threads or any thing.

Originally Posted By David_Hineline: A local C2 can not replace the serialized componant as he was not the original manuf.

the tube is just a tube . it has no serial #. the muzzle cap has the #'s on it. I found nothing about where to put the #'s except that it has to be visible. I'll post a pic if you'd like. or you can look at the pics of the end cap of the aac prodigy. their tube only has a model name on it.

If you can show me where the ATF says the tube needs #'s I can engrave them on there as well.

off topic how does any one like my can? I do need to buy a shorter pistol ,a bolt rifle and thread my 10/22 for the can as well

Nice work Gorilla, now I want one! In 9mm though :P

my newest form 1 project





the quick mount works like a charm. push the bar at the bottom and it just slides on or off . locks up very tight on the barrel , as I only used .0005 clearance between the 2 fits. there is a ss sleve in the mount as well to take the blast from the 3 cuts in the 93R barrel. the first baffle is ss the rest of the can is alum. I went with a modified M baffle to save weight. I need to weigh it as it is very light. I've ordered a 12# recoil spring from wolff to help the ejection thats kinda weak. I've also thought of mounting some sights on the top of the can as the pistol sights are just barely too short.

is it just me or are most form 1 cans .22lr?

as always let me know what you think

THAT IS FREAKING PIMP.  Nice can.  That's a pretty impressive homebuilt.  

How does it sound?

The Taurus needs custom grips or something else for grips.  It looks too cool with a suppressor and 93R barrel to remain stock.

Thanks for that very informative thread.  I really enjoyed it.

I like the can Zach. got a pic of the "M" baffles you used?

thanks

Originally Posted By caver101: I like the can Zach. got a pic of the "M" baffles you used? thanks

no , and even though they cut down on the weight , they cause a lot of blow back. I need to modify them some more to help with it .

I see some people are talking about scouring pads made out of brass which brings back
memories of those can kits that were sold in the 70s/80s before ATF put a stop to it.
If I remember right I think they were using a combo of a baffle in one chamber leading
into another chamber with pop ribbits. They did not supply a tube with it. I wonder if you came across one of those kits and do a form 1 and add a tube to it if that would be legal.

Originally Posted By passgas55: I see some people are talking about scouring pads made out of brass which brings back memories of those can kits that were sold in the 70s/80s before ATF put a stop to it. If I remember right I think they were using a combo of a baffle in one chamber leading into another chamber with pop ribbits. They did not supply a tube with it. I wonder if you came across one of those kits and do a form 1 and add a tube to it if that would be legal.

I wouldn't do it ATF has ruled that any part of a suppresor is a suppresor and all the parts assembled make a suppresor. so buying parts without a form 4 is buying an illegal suppresor. I also don't think you can make a form 1 can with parts bought that are a form 4 them selves . if you could the can would need 2 stamps to transfer out because the orig form 4 parts were never destroyed .

there are much eaiser designs that are better to boot than one from the '70s that will get you jail time . or if you can't make one just buy a decent one and spen your money wisely.

Just out of curiosity has anyone tried using carbon fiber or Kevlar for suppressor tubes?

Originally Posted By Javak: Just out of curiosity has anyone tried using carbon fiber or Kevlar for suppressor tubes?

AAC did some testing with a outer tube made from CF but I don't know if it made it through production. most materials like this delaminate with high temps.

I've kicked the idea around of using fiberglass tubes used for air cylinder as the outer tube.

Originally Posted By passgas55: I see some people are talking about scouring pads made out of brass which brings back memories of those can kits that were sold in the 70s/80s before ATF put a stop to it. If I remember right I think they were using a combo of a baffle in one chamber leading into another chamber with pop ribbits. They did not supply a tube with it. I wonder if you came across one of those kits and do a form 1 and add a tube to it if that would be legal.

Like a Frog?  

Originally Posted By caver101: I like the can Zach. got a pic of the "M" baffles you used? thanks

i think is really easy for Zach to make a little change  on  AAC prodigy , is a poor copy of it. better if it was an exellent copy at last, wasn't it? if you are going to spent some money ,spent it for you own design.

I love you guys!

lots of cool stuff here

Is there any limit to how many form 1's an individual can do?  I would like to build two suppressors.  ATF is processing one form as we speak.

Has anyone used chrome moly tubing instead of mild steel?  It weighs less and should have the same strength if not more then mild steel.

Only limit to how many F1/F4's you can have is the amount of money you can afford to pay to U. Sam.

If your CLEO makes rules(Prince William County in Virginia has a rule of 2 tax stamp approvals per citizen, no exceptions) then bypass them with a trust or a corp.

Problem solved.

tag for gorila mods

Interesting news... an ATF letter actually exists addressing the maintenance of Form 1 suppressors.  The cut and paste in all its glory:


Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives 1/09/04
Office of Public and Governmental Affairs
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW.
Room 8290
Washington, DC 20226

I made a silencer on an ATF form 1 earlier this year. I need to know what kind of repairs I am legally allowed to make in the future. Am I allowed to repair or replace any part of the silencer? I do not have spare parts on hand and would destroy and discard any baffle, spacer, end cap or tube prior to making the new part. Thank you.

Respectfully,

Ran B

This is the reply I received three months later.

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives

March 15 2004

Mr. Ranb
Wish I lived in
Idaho 12345

Dear Mr. Ranb

This refers to your letter of January 9, 2004, to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch, in which you inquire about the lawful procedure for replacing components on your registered silencer.

As you may be aware, the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. S 921 (a)(24), defines the term “firearms silencer” as follows:

..any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling of fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended for use in such assembly or fabrication.

ATF has determined that various parts such as wipes, baffles, end caps, and other individual component parts, which are specifically designed for use in a silencer, meet the above definition and are subject to all the controls and provisions of the NFA. However, we have also determined that in certain instances it is not unlawful for individuals to perform minor repairs to silencers that are registered to them, in order to maintain efficiency. With respect to your specific inquiry, the above repairs would be limited to the following conditions:

Removing the original components from the device

Destroying the original components by burning, melting, or cutting the wipes into at least four separate pieces.

Making the replacement components yourself and installing them into your silencer

Also, you would not be authorized to make or possess any spare components in addition to the ones used in your silencer. It is not lawful for another person to make these components for you, or transfer any components to you that are not registered in accordance with the NFA provisions. Alternatively, a person who possesses a registered silencer may transfer the silencer to any licensed manufacturer of firearms who currently paid a special occupation tax as a manufacturer of NFA firearms. We recommend that an ATF Form 5 be used to facilitate this tax-exempt transfer for repair purposes. Any such manufacturer may then repair or replace the subject components and return the device to you. If such components are replaced, it must be done on an exchange basis, and the original components must be destroyed.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive

Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch


That letter clearly states that "wipes, baffles, end caps, and other individual component parts" can legally be replaced if the metal is melted down and if the wipes are cut into at least four separate peices

There you go, folks.  Please, DO NOT start a stupid debate that says the letter applies only to wipes, it specifically includes the components I have highlited in red.  In a nutshell:  remove component - melt/cut component - make replacement component.  

Originally Posted By Gorilla: Interesting news... an ATF letter actually exists addressing the maintenance of Form 1 suppressors.  The cut and paste in all its glory: /Snip/ There you go, folks.  Please, DO NOT start a stupid debate that says the letter applies only to wipes, it specifically includes the components I have highlited in red.  In a nutshell:  remove component - melt/cut component - make replacement component.

Does this mean we can look forward to you trying new baffle designs?
after destroying your current ones that is.

Excellent thread guys.  Keep posting those projects, lots of great ideas and designs.

After reading all that, and realizing that you can make new parts by destroying your old ones,  I've come to the conclusion that you should try your baffle design again, but turning every baffel 90 degrees from the last one (al-la HK MP5SD type baffle)

Hardwarz

Some people only hear what they want. It specifically only applies to the person the letter was written to, it specifically says componants can be replaced to maintain efficiency not to improve/re-design totally the internals.

Pop your bubble, Pop your bubble.


        DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
               BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS
                        WASHINGTON, DC 20226

                             AUG 23 1999

                                                          901040:GS
                                                          5320/99-0115

Dear Mr. Bardwell:

This is in response to your letter of June 28, 1999, regarding the
repair of a silencer by an individual owner.  You ask "whether it
is lawful for the owner of a lawfully possessed silencer ... to
repair that silencer himself, by replacing unserialized internal
components with new components of his own making."  You cited the
replacement of a worn out plastic "wipe" or damaged baffle as an
example.

As you are aware, the terms "firearm silencer" and "firearm
muffler" mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing
the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of
parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling
or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part
intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.  Thus,
certain internal components, intended only for use in a silencer,
are silencers as defined.

If an individual made one of these parts, even for use as a
replacement part, the individual would be making a silencer.  Under
the provisions of the National Firearms Act, any person must apply
for and receive permission to make a silencer and pay the making
tax for each silencer made.  This would require the individual
owner to file an ATF Form 1 application for each silencer part to
be made with the payment of $200.00 for each application prior to
making any replacement part.

In regard to the two parts in your cited example, we consider a
baffle to be a silencer, but a wipe, which is usually nothing more
than a rubber or plastic disc with a hole in it, is generally not
considered to be a silencer.  Thus an individual owner could
replace a wipe.

                                - 2 -

Mr. Bardwell

For the replacement of a part or parts that meet the definition of
a silencer, the individual owner would need to arrange for the
transfer of the silencer to a Federal firearms licensee who is
qualified to manufacture silencers.

If you have questions about the classification of other silencer
components, please provide us with a description of them or should
any additional information be needed, please contact Gary Schiable
at (202) 927-8330.


                          Sincerely yours,

                              [signed]
                           Kent M. Cousins
                 Chief, National Firearms Act Branch

Great thread, and awesome machine work all around,

but what about some video's to illustrate your accomplishments better.


think about the children...

how much is it for a form 1
btw nice cans

form 1's cost $200 just like a form 4 (minus AOW's) . same paper work and everything.

Next project!!

This reply is a bit late, and I apologize.  I don't drop by here as much as I used to.

David, regarding the Bardwell letter you posted, I've seen it many times, and the reason I generally reject it is because from everything that I can see, the letter adresses an individual who wants to repair/modify a can that may be owned by him, but was not made by him.  For example, Joe Smith buys a Gemtech can, has a baffle strike, and wants to fix it.  No dice.  Nowhere in that letter does it mention the individual made the can himself after filing a form 1.  It simply states he is in possession of a registered silencer.

I believe the previously copied and posted letter (I'll call it the RanB letter) is the closest thing yet to addressing repair and mods to a personally constructed F1 can, by the original maker.  I understand it only applies to the RanB guy, but it is a good guideline, IMO.  I believe the spirit of the F1 can is that the user can make a single can, and when the smoke clears, there are no additional components.

We hashed this out in detail earlier.  Let's say you have a can that takes five baffles, a tube, and two encaps.  You make everything except the last baffle.  You've now got that last baffle on the lathe, and during the last cut, you make a mistake and cut it too small.  It is still recognizeably a baffle.  Are you now supposed to say "Aw crap", and are you forced to use it anyhow, based upon that letter?  Do you wrap it in duct tape?  That's ridiculous.  The spirit and intent of the individual F1 can is to make a suppressor.  So you destroy the baffle, and make a replacement.  There isn't a sane jury anywhere that would convict you.  Yes I know it would suck to go to court, but I don't think it would happen.

Obviously, you don't have a single tube, and 4 sets of internals that you swap out to see which one is the quietest.  But I cannot imagine the alphabet boys would shoot your dog if you took out the first baffle in your completed stack and modified it with a mouse hole or a flanking cut, and reinstalled it.  Or even <gasp> making a new one in a different shape, after determining the first one sucked, and destroying it per the RanB guidelines.

I do have another F1 coming, and the can is going to be another jumbo .22LR job, which is going to be a can for a modified LM7 which I am going to turn into as close to a tippmann clone as I can.

What brand of lathe is that? I want one

I may never be in a position to make my own can, but I was thinking about how it works, and I remembered something very interesting:





The design of the 3M EPX type mixing nozzle for adhesives and bonding agents is
very efficient at mixing two-part fluids.


I can't help but think that somewhere in that design,  there's a hell of an efficient baffle
design in there somewhere.


I'm guessing somebody already figured that out already.   Who might that be, and
how well does the resulting suppressor work?


CJ

This man has some serious talent.

What would someone look to pay for decent enough equipment to pull something like this off?

I have seen the lathe/mill combos, the discount lathes and mills at Harbour Freight and the bench top lathes for not alot of money. Are any of those a possibility? Or would it be better to go used.

Originally Posted By APKCFL: This man has some serious talent. What would someone look to pay for decent enough equipment to pull something like this off? I have seen the lathe/mill combos, the discount lathes and mills at Harbour Freight and the bench top lathes for not alot of money. Are any of those a possibility? Or would it be better to go used.

You ,beeing in Florida, should have a good selection of used stuff due to the space center and all the shops down there.
If you dont know what to look for in a used piece.....enlist the help of those that do. A used piece with probs may be a quick fix or something you have to fight all the time to make a straight cut.
A good machinist can make about any old worn out POS work........but it gets annoying quickly.
For many home machinists , the Grizzly/Jet way is usually the best route. Good used equipment is out there.......and it would be worth your time to find a good dealer that tests and stands behind what they sell.
I dont recall anyone in Florida.......but its been about 10 years since I lived there.

To anyone in New England.......Brothers Machinery in Andover Mass. is aSTAND UP group of guys !! Ive dealt with them a few times and they have great prices and a huge selection of quality equipment.
www.brothersmachinery.com/




Gorilla..............Fine work and great thread
You are truley a fine craftsman.

Bump for New info..