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Posted: 6/28/2005 6:16:15 PM EDT
[#1]
'love the ceiner mod! That deserves a separate thread! Thanks for sharing all the ideas and experience.
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Posted: 7/1/2005 11:54:50 AM EDT
[#2]
Thanks so much for the mod......
I'm using one of those GAT cranks (similar to a BMF activator) and I think that I am suffering from bolt bounce at full auto rates of fire. I would like to try the anti-bounce weight before I make the modification you suggested though. If you don't want your antibounce weight anymore, let me know. I will give you a fair price for it. Thanks again for the mod! |
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Posted: 7/1/2005 8:33:45 PM EDT
[#3]
It could be bolt bounce or you are cranking too fast, if your crank releases the hammer before the bolt closes fully then no primer hit. Slow down the cranking just a bit.
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Posted: 7/1/2005 10:08:11 PM EDT
[#4]
Even at slow cranking speeds, I get stoppage from time to time. It leads me to believe it is bolt bounce. The mod is not going to affect the semi auto function anyway, so I figure why not give it a shot. I will first see if I can score an anti-bounce weight first though. Thanks! |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/2/2005 1:51:22 PM EDT
[#5]
Range report - a real shakedown, no more baloney. The range visit was to test both the anti-bounce mechanism and the can.
The tests used a mix of CCI mini-mags, blazers, Subsonics, and some other junk .22 I had lying around. All of them were through the Kuehl 5" bbl. Stock Ciener springs. The first test was without the can for reliability and accuracy. Several back to back 30rd mags were fired, some with longer bursts, others with 3 to 5 shot bursts. With ONLY the spring and ball, I had some FTF, perhaps 5 with 500 rounds and the gun getting dirty. Adding the weight back to the system, and keeping the ball as well, and the only FTF was one or two for ejection, stovepiping, that sort of thing. It was infrequent enough so that it crossed my "satisfaction threshhold" to where I was happy and no longer pissed shooting .22LR through a short bbl. Back to back mag dumps without a hitch!  Summary: I think the addition of the spring and ball helped tremendously, because 75% of my previous failures were definitely bounce. Accuracy: Here's a 20 yd 5-shot group from rest with an Eotech, CCI mini-mags, no can.  The group is probably 1.5" across. Plenty good from this short bbl. The real test came with the suppressor installed. First, the addition of the suppressor increased reliability, experiencing no failures of any kind with any ammo. I probably put only 150rds through it. I was really anxious to see what the can would do to both dispersion and POI. As you can see from the next photo, dispersion was fine, probably better than no can, but the POI moved up roughly 3" at 20 yards. I can live with this due to the good accuracy. It'll simply mean clicking down a bit with the optics.  I broke out my sandblast rig and hit the end cap, which never did take a good parkerizing, and the finish is perfect for moly. I have some moly inbound from Brownell's. I'll wrap up the thread with pictures of the dark-gray, moly'd suppressor. |
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Posted: 7/5/2005 4:39:21 PM EDT
[#6]
Just found this thread. Nice work! I could only hope that I'll have myself in a position to be this type of tinkering somewhere in the future!
So, to ensure you can KEEP on tinkering, please don't take the advice of anyone who tells you that since you were the legal maker of the suppressor that by their guesstimating you are also the manufacturer. Like the letters stated, if you don't have the license and haven't paid the SOT, it doesn't matter what fine lines you use to differentiate between maker/manufacturer/creator/developer, etc. The ATF has their own uses for each word and they have the authority, if you want to look at it this way, to put you in prison for using incorrect synonyms. Maker and Manufacturer might mean the same thing in Webster's dictionary, but they don't seem to be the same thing to the ATF. |
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Posted: 7/12/2005 10:28:23 PM EDT
[#7]
tag
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2005 2:35:48 PM EDT
[#8]
Some pics from final assembly. The suppressor was coated with Brownell's moly in dark gray, and correctly cured at 300 degrees.
Layed out on the bench. At the top is the tube and the end cap. At the bottom is the base cap, and the two-point mounting. The baffles are to the right, on an insertion tool.  I did make some previously unseen cuts on the first baffle, especially to the flanks.  With the base cap and two-point mount installed, the baffles themselves can be inserted with the tool with ease. I first coated the tube and baffles with a waxy corrosion preventative, which will hopefully inhibit the fouling from sticking quite so badly. Due to the way the baffles contact the tube walls, it shouldn't be really tough to get the baffles out even when heavily fouled. 
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Posted: 7/15/2005 2:38:23 PM EDT
[#9]
WOW!! That is simply badass. Good Job.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2005 2:48:17 PM EDT
[#10]
A view at the base end. The contact ring, where the can is registered with the barrel, was polished free of moly. You can see the 4 pin holes for the pin wrench. The muzzle cap has a similar set of holes.
 And finally, back on the upper, still with just the pistol hand guard.  The color I chose for the tube contrasts nicely with the rest of the gun. The final setup consists of the JAC kit modified for a ball and spring anti-bounce device, and a stiffer Lakeside recoil spring. I'm still using the anti-bounce weight. The combination so far has been reliable with subsonic and anything with more power, which is most .22LR. Of all the reliability mods, I think the Lakeside set has been the most important. I mentioned it a while back, but I've got upwards of 50 photos of this project devoted to this thread, and if my bandwidth gets ugly, they'll come down, so if there is any particular photo or description that you want to save, you may want to do so soon. I hope you guys have enjoyed this thread. Some "retrospective": if I had it to do over, I'd make the primary tubing aluminum, the base cap steel (for wear resistance), and the muzzle cap steel as well, unless you can disassemble the can with just the base cap removed. During construction, you WILL take it apart literally hundreds of times, but I still think the use of aluminum for the OD tube is wise due to the weight savings. Of course this is for .22 cans, 5.56 is an entirely different ballgame. I know there's a big debate over cleaning a .22 suppressor, but I still like the idea of being able to take it apart. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 7/16/2005 3:31:12 PM EDT
[#11]
That is beautiful. If you ever become a SOT you should start producing uppers with that can/barrel combo. Beautiful.
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Posted: 7/19/2005 8:52:23 AM EDT
[#12]
That, my friend, is a work of art. A fine example of well-thought-out execution to a good plan.
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Posted: 7/21/2005 9:42:16 PM EDT
[#13]
this is the first time I've looked at this thread since April. Looks great!
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WI, USA
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Posted: 7/27/2005 7:49:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MoNkEyTurbo]
[#14]
Will you consider adoption?
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TX, USA
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Posted: 8/3/2005 9:51:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Gorilla]
[#15]
Thanks everyone! I have one more experiment to try... a very smart guy from Germany has been posting on Silvers' silencer forum, and he recommends oil-soaked FELT sheets in a can as a huge performance boost. I really like this thought. Most cans use some sort of metallic wool to absorb heat, but this monster can has plenty of mass, and I don't think bronze wool or similar would help. But felt... even dry, I bet it would cut down on transmission of the blast through the walls of the can. What I will do is soak some felt in motor oil, wring it out as much as possible, then coil a spiral of the stuff. I'm going to search for a stiff felt which would maintain an open bore of perhaps 0.750".
Idea - how about a big SPRING to carry the felt? Take a section of 0.500" ID spring as long as desired - short for a blast section, or longer to replace some baffles. Wrap a layer of felt around it so the spring + felt is a close sliding fit into the suppressor tube. No chance now of the felt collapsing into the bullet path. The spring of course would allow the blast through and into the felt. I'll give this a try and report the results. I think this has potential! You could probably make an effective .22 can using an 8" tube, a long 1/2" bore spring, and a few sheets of craft felt.  Gorilla
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TX, USA
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Posted: 8/5/2005 9:56:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Gorilla]
[#16]
Test of the oil- soaked felt... the addition of felt did NOTHING to deaden the report except generate a lot of smoke. If you like quantities of smoke blowing through your reciever, go for it. Otherwise, it didn't do much!
 Edited to add: I think the axial spring concept has a lot going for it. A spring of fine pitch would help contain bronze wool outside of it, or anything else where you'd want the gasses to pass through. About the only concern would be the spring kinking or otherwise not maintaining a good bore. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 8/6/2005 4:53:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Cyclic]
[#17]
Hey Gorilla,
Where are you located? I out on contract right now but will be done and back in central Texas in December. I have a silencer and a new end cap that need to be "mated" by threading the existing endcap. Should be a fairly easy job, just need some one with knowledge and a lathe to do it. Would you mind helping? Thanks, Cyclic P.S. I can bring a SDS .22 can. So that you can take it apart and examine for your own info. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 8/7/2005 5:52:12 PM EDT
[#18]
Cyclic, IM sent, thanks.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 8/8/2005 12:53:12 AM EDT
[#19]
Thanks, sounds good. I'll give you a shout then.
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Posted: 10/3/2005 12:54:32 PM EDT
[#20]
This has to be one of the best threads I've read on this board!
Now I have this urge to call the loca Vo-Tech and sign up for a metalworking class...
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/5/2005 3:46:52 PM EDT
[#21]
So how's it going Gorilla? I'm down to 67 days and counting. Man I miss my toys!!!!
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/6/2005 9:52:36 AM EDT
[#22]
Gunbert: Thank you! I recognize that dancing mouse from Home Gunsmithing!
Cyclic: My shop is still boxed.  I need to get three phase power to the machines before I can even turn them on. I'm also far too into "Stainmaster" carpeting , new appliances, and trying to sever my finger stripping 10/3 electrical cable for a washer and dryer. The discretionary NFA $$ is being stealithily diverted into non-firearm acquisitions. I'll let you know when things are ready.
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PA, USA
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Posted: 10/9/2005 4:42:38 AM EDT
[#23]
EXTREMELY IMPRESSIVE! You've got some talent!
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OH, USA
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Posted: 10/10/2005 6:28:42 PM EDT
[#24]
Well Done !
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VUT
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Posted: 10/19/2005 12:46:03 PM EDT
[#25]
Here's a .22 can I designed and had built by my friendly machinist. The core is turned/milled aluminum, the sleve is 1.5" OD stainless tube. It is as quiet as any other can I own and quieter than most. It also has the capacity for FA .22 use. The Finns make them like this, solid core with sleeve.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/22/2005 11:48:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Gorilla]
[#26]
 That is really cool!! I love unique baffle stacks like that. It's funny, stacks like yours (and mine) look way difficult to machine, but especially in your case, since yours is one block, the machining is a lot easier than trying to carve out a K baffle from solid in the lathe.After the lathe, mount that puppy in a spacer, dividing head, or a 5C indexer, and the whole thing could be done in a mill in no time, especially one DRO equipped. Thanks for sharing. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/23/2005 12:03:27 AM EDT
[#27]
God bless you, Gorilla!
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OH, USA
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Posted: 11/7/2005 12:49:21 PM EDT
[#28]
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TX, USA
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Posted: 11/12/2005 10:12:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Gorilla]
[#29]
Monkey-Man, can you tell us more about that stack, and the can in general? The more I look at it, the more fascinated I am. I love the thought of chucking a bar of aluminum in a machining center, pressing a button, and having a precision stack a short time later.
How difficult is removal when it's crudded up? That would be a bit of a concern for me. There really is not a current manufacturer that I'm aware of that makes large .22LR cans suitable for an AR-styled rifle. The emphasis today is on "small" and "smaller". I guess you could always buy a 5.56 can, but why pay for metallurgy and technology you don't need? When you go with large volume with a .22 can, it is much more forgiving and simpler stacks work very well. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/14/2005 11:47:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Cammer]
[#30]
Just reading through this thread, and noticing the nice, smoothly machined surfaces, it occurred to me that the internal texture of a suppressor might affect it's efficiency. This could be something as simple as a coarse sandblasting, or as labor intensive as stippling or diamond texturing the internals, or even machining a coarse thread along the inside of the tube. It seems to me that increasing the surface area in that way would improve sound/energy absorption, much like carpeting can do to a room.
It might be worth a try if you wanted. 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 11/15/2005 11:07:03 AM EDT
[#31]
Cammer, I think your reasoning is totally sound. About the only concern I'd have is if you want to take the can apart to clean, a stippled/rough surface would promote a really solid carbon and leading buildup that's be tougher to remove than if the metal was smooth. But for many, this wouldn't be objectionable.
The classic way to increase surface area is with bronze wool or similar. I've always wondered why bronze wool is preferred over steel wool. Corrosion, maybe? |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:20:47 PM EDT
[#32]
That would certainly be a major factor. |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 11:20:41 PM EDT
[#33]
Steel wool rusts, and also burns. Emergency fire starter...9 volt battery, and some fine steel wool.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/30/2005 1:26:43 PM EDT
[#34]
How much bigger did you bore the hole for the bullet to go thru? I have always wanted to know how much play to give the bullet that was going thru the can? Thanks for the help
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TX, USA
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Posted: 12/5/2005 10:32:41 AM EDT
[#35]
The diameter of the through-hole will vary depending upon a number of factors. The smaller the hole, the more efficiently the can will suppress, but there are tolerance issues at work. For example, any detacheable can will never be completely axial to the bore, with no runout... the end of the can will definitely be off the bore's axis by some amount, and that amount will vary with the accuracy of the barrel's threading, and the can's mounting. Further tolerance creep... if your can's ID bore is 1.500", +/- 0.004 which is pretty typical of drawn carbon steel tube, your baffles will need to be turned to probably 1.490" or so, anything more will make installation and subsequent cleaning, if that's what you want to do, very tough. So there's about 0.010" inches of variance right there.
I think you get the idea. This particular can used a .250" through hole. I am pretty confident that it could have been tighter, but I sacrificed efficiency so as to have zero fear of a baffle strike. What it boils down to - if you machine well and to tight tolerances for all components, including the bbl threading, you can go for a tighter through-hole. If things are a bit sloppy, the bore needs to be larger. Remember, plenty of guys shoot .22LR through a 9mm can with excellent results, so if in doubt, keep the bore open! |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 12/12/2005 11:11:26 PM EDT
[#36]
I'm impressed!! nice work!!
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Posted: 12/30/2005 2:56:30 AM EDT
[#37]
All I can say is, B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L!
Great work man 
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Posted: 1/3/2006 10:51:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cdhicks99]
[#38]
tag
ETA: sorry didn't notice this was tacked 
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MI, USA
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Posted: 1/19/2006 10:21:22 PM EDT
[#39]
Does anyone have any info on filling out the Form 1 to apply for a license to build a silencer. It looks as if the form were for an actual firearm. I'm just curious as to how some of the required fields were filled out. A close friend and I are going for it while the windows open in michigan.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/19/2006 10:48:11 PM EDT
[#40]
Hey Gorilla, how goes the home/shop set-up?
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VUT
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Posted: 1/20/2006 2:38:20 PM EDT
[#41]
Nothing much to tell, it is as simple as it looks - except that using the 1/2" end-mill like a drill (vertically) to make the expansion areas also creates swirl in the gas which helps to slow it down. You end up with two 3/4-moon chambers that meet with a sharp edge right along the bore-axis. Find the tube first then build the core for a slip-fit. I painted it black and have run about 3,000rds of FA .22 through it without even thinking about taking it apart, I think I might have to soak it in solvent to get it into pieces. It is lighter than the all-steel ASE Finnish can I was using before and slightly fatter - and quieter. 
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WI, USA
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Posted: 1/23/2006 1:48:48 PM EDT
[#42]
Gorilla I just took a look at this.
That baffle stack is sweet. That's impressive machining. It should be better suited to 5.56 than .22lr with all that room for blow by. Also I think the large expansion chamber hurts the .22lr suppression a little. That looks like a really high-flow design. If it got good sound reduction in 5.56, it should provide low back pressure too. Can you heat treat mild steel? That [heat treating, case hardening or melonite finishing might help you on the 5.56 end in terms of errosion resistance. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 10:22:08 PM EDT
[#43]
So, what is the actual cost of making a suppressor?
Is there a huge mark-up on "commercial" suppressors, or is the price justified and fair? |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 10:32:45 PM EDT
[#44]
Material cost is nil. R&D / production time is the big expense. It's difficult to assign a value. For a guy with the proper tools and some time to spare, a suppressor could be built for next to nothing.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 10:36:25 PM EDT
[#45]
So, it's likely that companies like Gemtech have pretty well paid off their production equipment and R&D and are now running on almost 100% profit? |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:16:18 PM EDT
[#46]
No f*cking way. They still have engineers working on new ideas and salaries to pay. It's a company man. It takes a lot to start a company. You are paying off loans for many many years and when you do start making money, you gotta put it right back into the company to keep it alive.
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Posted: 2/1/2006 12:15:46 PM EDT
[#47]
Gemtech currently offers 16 different suppressors. Five of those models are new designs introduced in the last 24 months; only one of the five uses a design even related to earlier production. If reinventing 30 percent of your product line every 24 months doesn't involve R&D costs, I don't know what does. |
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Posted: 2/1/2006 12:27:55 PM EDT
[#48]
Ok... don't get your panties in a bunch.
So how much of a mark-up is there from the manufacturer to the dealer and the dealer to the consumer? |
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Posted: 2/1/2006 4:27:35 PM EDT
[#49]
Dealer cost is anywhere from 60 to 80% of retail, depending first on how many the dealer orders (in a low-volume biz like suppressor manufacturing, a dealer can get a tremendous price break by ordering 20-25 units) and second, on demand: The newest, latest can will cost a dealer more than an established production item that the manufacturer may have had sitting in inventory for a coupla months.
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Posted: 2/1/2006 6:34:09 PM EDT
[#50]
In our business (surveying instruments) the company's burdened cost includes a 35-50% profit (which is pumped right back into R&D for the next product). Our burdened cost is anywhere from 40 to 65 % of the cost that the consumer sees. Independent retailers mark up the additional amount. I have only seen pictures of the inside of a can, and have also only given a cursory examination as to the prices. From what I have seen I would imagine that suppressors, made with less than $50 worth of raw materials, generate between 30 and 50% profit after all expenses. I don't know what retail markup on these items is. If the company wants to stay in business, nearly all profits will go back into R&D for the next great product. |
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