Multi marked lower and registering a form 1 - Page 1

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Multi marked lower and registering a form 1

Posted: 5/31/2017 7:32:09 PM EDT

Getting ready to do the form 1 on my 9mm build. It's built on a Aero Precision stripped lower with a Macon Armory mag block. Lower is marked "MULTI".

So when I register it I need to register it as 9mm correct?? Engraving is already done, and 9mm will be clearly displayed on the upper somewhere.

Figured since it is a "multi" the caliber should be what I built it as, since it doesn't have a specific caliber marked?

Posted: 5/31/2017 7:51:29 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Figured since it is a "multi" the caliber should be what I built it as, since it doesn't have a specific caliber marked?

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Correct.

The lower is allowed to be marked multi by the original manufacturer because it was shipped as a lower without an upper/barrel, so did not have a caliber at the time it was created. Your SBR will have a caliber when it is created.

Posted: 5/31/2017 9:20:24 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Figured since it is a "multi" the caliber should be what I built it as, since it doesn't have a specific caliber marked?

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You always file the caliber as what you're initially going to build, no matter how the lower is marked.

Posted: 5/31/2017 9:38:45 PM EDT

[#3]

Got it

Posted: 5/31/2017 11:22:20 PM EDT

[#4]

My lower is also marked "Multi" and my upper is 300 BO and not readily/visibly marked for caliber. I went ahead and had my engraver add "Cal. 300" (that's how the caliber shows on my papers) at the bottom of the regular magwell info. My trust info is on the left above the safety area where manufacturers are often marked. Looks clean blacked out.

Rob

Posted: 6/4/2017 3:31:42 PM EDT

[#5]

IMO, this is the way to go.

Multi on lower and cal on upper. No matter what cal upper you put on it, its correctly marked.

If the lower is engraved and you swap upper/cal. it has a higher probability of having issues with someone seeing the wrong caliber.

Again, IMO

Posted: 6/4/2017 5:10:31 PM EDT

[#6]

Also, for the over all length, is it with a stock in shortest or longest length?

Posted: 6/4/2017 5:12:00 PM EDT

[#7]

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Also, for the over all length, is it with a stock in shortest or longest length?

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Stock un-folded and/or fully extended.

Posted: 6/4/2017 8:20:05 PM EDT

[#8]

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Also, for the over all length, is it with a stock in shortest or longest length?

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Fully extended. Just like it says on the form in the instructions.

Posted: 6/4/2017 9:20:39 PM EDT

[#9]

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Quoted:

Fully extended. Just like it says on the form in the instructions.

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I aint got that far yet

Posted: 6/4/2017 10:52:01 PM EDT

[#10]

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I aint got that far yet

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2(j)(5).

Or read the 41F Forms sticky in Gen NFA.

Posted: 6/6/2017 9:51:38 PM EDT

[#11]

Overall includes muzzle device and all correct?

So my 9mm comes in at 10.5" barrel, 31" overall from end of flash can to but pad, extended all the way out....

Posted: 6/6/2017 10:00:53 PM EDT

[#12]

The muzzle device only counts towards overall length if permanently attached.
Edited.

Posted: 6/6/2017 10:17:42 PM EDT

[#13]

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Overall includes muzzle device and all correct?

So my 9mm comes in at 10.5" barrel, 31" overall from end of flash can to but pad, extended all the way out....

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No, unless it's permanently (silver solder, pin & weld, or other ATF approved method) attached, the muzzle device doesn't count for barrel or overall lengths.

Posted: 6/6/2017 10:42:16 PM EDT

[#14]

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No, unless it's permanently (silver solder, pin & weld, or other ATF approved method) attached, the muzzle device doesn't count for barrel or overall lengths.

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So then the end of my rail will be the end then? As I have a 10.5" barrel with a 3" flash can and a 12" rail. So my OAL will be 29.5.....

Posted: 6/6/2017 11:12:58 PM EDT

[#15]

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So then the end of my rail will be the end then? As I have a 10.5" barrel with a 3" flash can and a 12" rail. So my OAL will be 29.5.....

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I'm not sure I've ever seen them answer that. I even asked about a monolithic upper (my AR57 with a recessed barrel) and got conflicting info. The monolithic would be more like a permanent muzzle device as far as OAL, but wouldn't count towards barrel length.

If I was filing yours, I wouldn't count the rail in either measurement....because you could remove the rail and it would still function just fine. 10.5" barrel would be about a 29.5" OAL. Flash can definitely doesn't count if it's not permanently attached.

Posted: 6/6/2017 11:29:02 PM EDT

[#16]

The butt stock is removeable also.

I know non-permanent muzzle devices don't count towards barrel length, but I thought they counted towards OAL for SBRs (not Title I firearms).
The ATF's NFA Handbook seems to agree with you though:

The overall length of a firearm is the distance between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion of the weapon measured on a line parallel to the axis of the bore.

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27 CFR 479.11 states

Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machine gun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Director finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon. For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

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which would seem to have no regard for the attachment method of a muzzle device.

I don't know.

Posted: 6/6/2017 11:40:27 PM EDT

[#17]

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The butt stock is removeable also.

I know non-permanent muzzle devices don't count towards barrel length, but I thought they counted towards OAL for SBRs (not Title I firearms).
The ATF's NFA Handbook seems to agree with you though:

27 CFR 479.11 states
which would seem to have no regard for the attachment method of a muzzle device.

I don't know.

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Quit trying to use logic.

(but, a rifle is a weapon designed to be fired from the shoulder, thus the importance of the stock)

NFA handbook defines the barrel length in regards to attachment method of muzzle device...and then I'd use that definition of "barrel" when measuring overall length. And while it's not a statute, the ATF answered it very clearly in this letter from 2011, which includes:

Posted: 6/6/2017 11:45:38 PM EDT

[#18]

OK thanks for posting that.
So it seems one would measure from the muzzle to the rearmost end (stock extended) and not count any removable piece(s) which extend forward of the muzzle, therefore a detachable extra-long rail would probably not count towards OAL.

Or did I leave too much logic in there?

Posted: 6/6/2017 11:57:47 PM EDT

[#19]

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Quoted:

I'm not sure I've ever seen them answer that. I even asked about a monolithic upper (my AR57 with a recessed barrel) and got conflicting info. The monolithic would be more like a permanent muzzle device as far as OAL, but wouldn't count towards barrel length.

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What answer did you receive?

Posted: 6/7/2017 7:27:35 AM EDT

[#20]

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What answer did you receive?

http://d2y13ph2yc4lvn.cloudfront.net/www.57center.com/uploaded/images/Product%20images%202/3.jpg?e=1

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One person I talked to said the rail didn't count. tony_k (the other mod for most of the NFA sections) got the opposite answer, that the monolithic upper would count for OAL...which is really what makes sense.

I took the easy route, and filed it for my 10.5" 5.56 upper. Installed hat upper first, then swapped it for my 5.7 upper.

Posted: 6/7/2017 9:48:38 AM EDT

[#21]

Jesus I opened pandoras box

I think I'll just say it has a 10.5" barrel and it's 29.5" OAL that's close enough for gov work, that's the end of the rail, and only about a inch off from where the true muzzle is behind the rail

Posted: 6/7/2017 10:16:59 AM EDT

[#22]

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Quoted:
Jesus I opened pandoras box

I think I'll just say it has a 10.5" barrel and it's 29.5" OAL that's close enough for gov work, that's the end of the rail, and only about a inch off from where the true muzzle is behind the rail

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Do it. And use that upper for every SBR, then swap to whatever you want.