So i've moved a bit recently, stayed in same state but different cities. When I created my trust, i lived in city 'X'. I lived in city 'Y' when i sent off my form 1, and am living in city 'Z' when i received my stamp.

my question is, do I use city 'X' because that's what's on my trust, city 'Y' to match my form 1, or city 'Z' because that's technically where i'll 'make' the SBR?

or am i way over thinking this?

Where will it be kept most of the time.



That's your answer.

I would use Y and assemble it in that city, so it matches the form1.

Why can't he drive to "Y" and assemble/ mate upper and lower inside of his car, in city "Y"?

I move constantly as a military member. Engrave the firearm as indicated on the approved stamp and notify the ATF via 5320.20 of the new address. I confirmed this with an examiner who contacted me to verify an address because my account address did not match the request. In the field, the firearm will be checked against the approved stamp and it's better that it matched. Keep a copy of the approved 5320.20 forms the ATF sends back to you with the address update.

Id trust Bigwaylon.  He knows more than 99.9% of other people who claim they know what they're talking about.

FWIW, from what I've read, it's the city where the sbr is assembled or made.

Double tap.

Triple tap!!!!

Read my post again...and let me know where I can send you a web link for "Hooked on Phonics". When you have the pleasure of interacting with the ATF at your local shooting range, an officer/entity that can in fact inquire about the status of your NFA item in hand, the general guidance issued will come full circle. Yes, where you assemble the weapon should be the information engraved on said weapon. You're assuming that said weapon was submitted for NFA approval and you remained at the same location/address until said weapon was approved. That, for those of us whom are forced to move...and move often, is a failed assumption.

You're still wrong and so was the examiner you checked with.  When it comes to ATF never trust spoken words, only trust what's in black and white.

Continue to read my friend...

You're still wrong.  The regs are really clear, you engrave where it was built, regardless of what's on the form.  It's that simple.  I'm active duty as well and have to deal with the same thing.  Not all of my engravings match my forms, no big deal.

Face Palm...it's flying right over your nugget or maybe I'm failing to communicate effectively. I guess I'll be that guy and "ask the ATF, via letter, on clarification of stipulated guidance". I understand what you are saying, and have the guidance in front of me, but you're still MAKING AN ASSUMPTION based on that guidance that is general in nature. I'm not stating that there will be an issue, if a legal examiner conducts an audit of your NFA items, but I've been advised otherwise.

It's not flying over my head.  ATF has been well known to give advise that contradicts the regs.  Your safest bet is always to follow what the regs say, not what an examiner or agent told you.  I've been playing the NFA game for a decade now.  I'm sure BigWaylon has been at it even longer.  Always go by what's in black and white.  And not opinion letters, they're not worth the paper they're written on.  The USC, the CFRs, and ATF rulings are what you go by.  If you trust what an examiner told you when it's in direct contradiction to the written regulation, well, I got nothing.  Even opinion letters have been written in direct contradiction of the law and had to be rescinded.  

In this case, you're highly unlikely to even get caught and even if you were it's practically impossible to prove, so you're not likely to get in trouble.  But keep believing what the ATF tells you over the phone and it's bound to bite you in the ass.

Still not reading. In person meeting, with an examiner, from the HQ office out of DC. Not a phone call but one who supervises those who are approving all of our forms.

So?  It still contradicts the reg.  ATF is well known for doing that and having to go back and fix their shit.  i dont know why you can't comprehend that.  But hey, keep being a condescending ass that's still wrong.

I didn't step into "condescending" or "ass"....but you certainly did. I've, we have, taken this thread down a non-productive route and I apologize for that. I'll simply leave the requirement, taken directly from the current ATF NFA Handbook, below and let any further clarification be made by those who have the authority to do so.

To the original poster, I apologize for this thread going off the tracks, but as you can see there is often clarification needed with respect to the generalized terminology used in the guidance provided by the BATFE.


Section 6.4 Approval of Form 1. Non-FFL/SOT’s may seek approval to manufacture an NFA firearm
(e.g., short-barreled rifles, short-barreled, shotguns, wallet guns, etc.) via submission of an ATF Form 1.
Upon receipt of the completed Form 1, ATF will process the application and, if approved, a tax stamp
will be affixed to the original of the form and the approved application will be returned to the applicant.
Approval by ATF will effect registration of the firearm to the applicant. Upon receipt of the approved
application, the applicant may make the firearm described on the approved Form 1. The approved form
must be retained by the applicant and made available at all times for inspection by ATF officers or
investigators. Note: Under no circumstances may the firearm in question be made prior to receipt of
the approved Form 1.

Interesting. So the CITY, STATE required engraving is not considered part of the "description" of the firearm even though you are "making" a new firearm and that said engraving is required on said firearm? The BATFE does track the address indicated on the Form 1 as to the current location of the NFA item but that is null/void if the maker indicates actual, physical, location of the NFA item and not what was provided to the BATFE as a current location. I understand your literal translation of the law but laws are clarified by precedence and other established guidance when/as needed. So, a form is pending, maker moves to another state/city, and form clears. Form city/state information does not match what is engraved on the firearm, and the maker has no obligation to notify the BATFE that the firearm was made at a location not indicated on the Form 1?

I'm really not tying to quibble here as there are multiple sources directing NFA owners to do one thing or the other. The "letter of the law" directs you to engrave the city where the firearm is being made, not what is indicated on the Form 1, yet said information on the Form 1 is exactly that which is required to be engraved on the firearm. If not, said Form 1 is simply a falsify official document. BATFE supervisors and approving officials are utilizing all guidance, except the CFR, and the customer/end users are utilizing the CFR while discarding any other guidance provided. Clear as mud and the irony of the situation is so very telling . I'll take the low road and seek no further clarification.

Thank you for your time and pardon my afternoon "pain in the ass" session.

Bravo

 
Citation Please?




And what exactly do you mean by "said information on the form 1", specifically what box on the form are you referring to as required information to be engraved, according to aforementioned citation?


 

According to the BATFE NFA Handbook, which is apparently worth the paper on the roll in my latrine, that information indicated on the Form 1 will be engraved on the firearm. If the only description of the firearm, with respect to the city/state, is that identified in Block 3b of the Form 1, then the consumer could/would use that information when engraving the firearm. If the information in 3b isn't worth the ink is written in then no city/state information would be required in the engraving process. Again...if the Handbook alone was used as a "guide for consumers" as a source document. I bet you would win that one in court as the judge gives the ATF to funky eyeball, even if the end user had to re-engrave his/her items in the outcome.

break, break

As the experts above have posted numerous times the CFR, and only the CFR, should be utilized when determining what city/state information is to be engraved on NFA items. Yup, the instructions contained in the Form 1, specifically para. 2j., state "The maker is required to mark the firearm with his or her name, city and state. All markings are to be in compliance with CFR 478.92 and 479.102"

If a consumer submits a Form 1, and in the process of waiting 6 months moves to another city/state, then the Handbook information would indicate that the city/state identified in block 3b, because that's the only city/state identified, would be used by the consumer. If you follow the CFR requirement the consumer would engrave the CURRENT city/state the firearm was made in and not that which is indicated on the Form 1.

We clearly agree that city/state must be engraved but two source documents provide unclear information to the consumer. The intent of the CFR must be clarified by a judicial process. Accepting it on face value, and that is one side of this argument, is an ASSUMPTION an not necessary the intent of the law. That intent would be clarified based on any court precedence set on the subject matter and or other source documents (ATF Handbook) that would direct a consumer one way or the other.

Assumptions get people killed in my business...thus the crux of my initial question. I then speak to an BATFE supervisor, in person, from the NFA branch and they indicate I should engrave the firearm with the city/state identified on the Form 1. I also pinged a legal examiner, who wrote me recently concerning an address on a pending Form 1 (which did not match my address in e-forms because of a military move), and she stated again that the address indicated on the Form 1 was in fact the city/state that should be engraved on the firearm.

Talk about a confused consumer.

Regardless, I completely see the simple, yet assuming, and certainly safe approach applied by utilizing the CFR guidance in it's purest form. The burden of proof will be on the BATFE/Government and they've got conflicting guidance and/or miss educated employees providing verbal, and written, guidance.

That's nothing new.  They've been doing it longer than any of us have been alive.  



 

 
Here is a link to the NFA Handbook:  https://www.atf.gov/firearms/national-firearms-act-handbook


For my own curiosity, could you point out where it states to engrave the information on the form 1?

Notice the underlined portion. If you're utilizing the Handbook as a guide...silly us to think that was acceptable, one COULD conclude that the description of said firearm should match that of the information identified on the Form 1. The counterargument would lead to a conclusion that if the 3b information did not apply...then a city/state WOULD NOT be required. Of course, we know that to be false. So, if the firearm must meet the "description of said firearm as identified on the Form 1", and the only city/state information on the Form 1 is located in 3b...then....yup, that's it...right???

Again, this information (use the city/state identified on the Form 1) is being provided to makers of firearms by the employees, to include legal examiners and certifiers, within the NFA branch.

Driving on to more energetic conversations about firearms...elsewhere

Section 6.4 Approval of Form 1. Non-FFL/SOT’s may seek approval to manufacture an NFA firearm
(e.g., short-barreled rifles, short-barreled, shotguns, wallet guns, etc.) via submission of an ATF Form 1.
Upon receipt of the completed Form 1, ATF will process the application and, if approved, a tax stamp
will be affixed to the original of the form and the approved application will be returned to the applicant.
Approval by ATF will effect registration of the firearm to the applicant. Upon receipt of the approved
application, the applicant may make the firearm described on the approved Form 1. The approved form
must be retained by the applicant and made available at all times for inspection by ATF officers or
investigators. Note: Under no circumstances may the firearm in question be made prior to receipt of
the approved Form 1.

I'm sure if this was to go to court the judge would not be interested in some handbook!!!  He goes by the code/law!!!

NYC just for laughs

Haven't spent years in the legal system...have you...

Fawk the regulations AND the handbook. In Waylon we trust!!  

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