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Posted: 5/23/2016 3:44:09 PM EDT
[#1]
I'll leave this here. I discussed this at length in my blog article.
https://blog.princelaw.com/2016/02/01/nfa-firearms-form-1s-engraving-and-cartoon-chickens/ |
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Posted: 5/23/2016 5:30:15 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll leave this here. I discussed this at length in my blog article. https://blog.princelaw.com/2016/02/01/nfa-firearms-form-1s-engraving-and-cartoon-chickens/ Would it be too much of a sidetrack to ask what is meant by recognized abbreviations for my name when J Smith John S JS ? Or are they just talking about the state Nevada to NV? |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 10:16:22 AM EDT
[#3]
So what do the engravers put in Box 4H on their form 1?
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Posted: 5/24/2016 11:15:20 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Uh.........Efile disappeared for Form 3's and 4's over two years ago...........and the NFA world didn't grind to a halt did it?  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
E file will not be possible after the July change. Silencershop and others have already posted about that. Uh.........Efile disappeared for Form 3's and 4's over two years ago...........and the NFA world didn't grind to a halt did it? But theres no way I could be talking about form 1's in the SBR forum huh. Wait times went up significantly on paper form 3 and 4's, since you brought it up, and form 1 times are about a month to two months longer than e file form 1 currently. It's not going to get better. |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 9:38:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what do the engravers put in Box 4H on their form 1? The engraver should not put anything on your form 1. In fact, there is no reason to even show it to him. |
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Posted: 5/26/2016 3:40:48 AM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 5/26/2016 9:46:16 PM EDT
[#8]
My head hurts.
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Posted: 5/26/2016 9:49:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I talked with our local ATF guy about 8 years ago on this matter. He told me it was illegal to engrave a firearm with your "manufacturer info" The MAKER must add engraving to the previously manufactured lower. |
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Posted: 5/27/2016 7:02:48 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What's a "wallet gun"? http://sfreporter.com/santafe/imgs/media.images/8961/img_8665.widea.jpg Mine: 
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Posted: 6/1/2016 5:33:42 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So under law I can't put my trust name and city on the stock? I am sbr'ing a sig MPX and I would prefer to engrave the skeleton stock so if I want to sell it I just pull the stock off and it's clean. |
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Posted: 6/1/2016 6:01:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm no lawyer, but I believe that once you "make" an NFA item like an SBR, it is an NFA item for life, so you can't just sell it like any other firearm, you have to sell it as an NFA item. So whether the receiver is engraved or not, it has a serial number that has now been registered as one belonging to an NFA item. Wrong. It doesn't take a lawyer to know differently.
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Posted: 6/1/2016 6:06:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm no lawyer, but I believe that once you "make" an NFA item like an SBR, it is an NFA item for life, so you can't just sell it like any other firearm, you have to sell it as an NFA item. So whether the receiver is engraved or not, it has a serial number that has now been registered as one belonging to an NFA item. You're also apparently not an NFA dealer, or an ATF examiner, or anybody else that's actually read the regulations. 
You can sell it, no NFA paperwork, no notifying the ATF, nothing other than selling it like a GCA firearm...as long as it's configured as a GCA firearm at that time. |
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Posted: 6/1/2016 6:26:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm no lawyer, but I believe that once you "make" an NFA item like an SBR, it is an NFA item for life, so you can't just sell it like any other firearm, you have to sell it as an NFA item. So whether the receiver is engraved or not, it has a serial number that has now been registered as one belonging to an NFA item. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So under law I can't put my trust name and city on the stock? I am sbr'ing a sig MPX and I would prefer to engrave the skeleton stock so if I want to sell it I just pull the stock off and it's clean. Why do so many people have to put their input in.... even if they don't know what they are talking about? Its silly stuff like this that makes threads like this pop-up. So much bad information floating around. People... If you don't know what you're talking about... don't add to the problem. There's no rule that says you have to respond to a thread. |
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Posted: 6/1/2016 11:50:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Get your Form1 approved, engrave the sbr, etc. If a buyer wants to purchase the sbr/nfa item in the future, there's no reason the new buyer can't have the same trust name as what's already engraved from the original maker/owner. Its just a matter of a small legal fee for a new trust, some paper, and a few signatures (with a notary fee).
I'm not a lawyer either, but if the new/old trusts had the same trust name, the trusts would have different trustees and different addresses. Pretty obvious to an examiner that the seller and buyer are different trusts/trustees. |
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Posted: 6/1/2016 11:58:14 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Get your Form1 approved, engrave the sbr, etc. If a buyer wants to purchase the sbr/nfa item in the future, there's no reason the new buyer can't have the same trust name as what's already engraved from the original maker/owner. Its just a matter of a small legal fee for a new trust, some paper, and a few signatures (with a notary fee). I'm not a lawyer either, but if the new/old trusts had the same trust name, the trusts would have different trustees and different addresses. Pretty obvious to an examiner that the seller and buyer are different trusts/trustees. Other than that F4 transfers don't require any new engraving, you'd be correct on whatever it is you're trying to go on about... |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 1:19:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Other than that F4 transfers don't require any new engraving, you'd be correct on whatever it is you're trying to go on about... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Get your Form1 approved, engrave the sbr, etc. If a buyer wants to purchase the sbr/nfa item in the future, there's no reason the new buyer can't have the same trust name as what's already engraved from the original maker/owner. Its just a matter of a small legal fee for a new trust, some paper, and a few signatures (with a notary fee). I'm not a lawyer either, but if the new/old trusts had the same trust name, the trusts would have different trustees and different addresses. Pretty obvious to an examiner that the seller and buyer are different trusts/trustees. Other than that F4 transfers don't require any new engraving, you'd be correct on whatever it is you're trying to go on about... I left out the part about converting the sbr back to non-nfa and getting it taken off the registry. Then selling it (as rifle/pistol) and the new owner can Form1 their new purchase under their trust, which has the same name as the previous owner. I'm honestly not sure which way I'd prefer to do it (Form4 it to new buyer or remove it from registry, new owner do a Form1). Good news is the sbr/trust would already be engraved  lol.
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Posted: 6/2/2016 8:59:01 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I left out the part about converting the sbr back to non-nfa and getting it taken off the registry. Then selling it (as rifle/pistol) and the new owner can Form1 their new purchase under their trust, which has the same name as the previous owner. I'm honestly not sure which way I'd prefer to do it (Form4 it to new buyer or remove it from registry, new owner do a Form1). Good news is the sbr/trust would already be engraved lol.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get your Form1 approved, engrave the sbr, etc. If a buyer wants to purchase the sbr/nfa item in the future, there's no reason the new buyer can't have the same trust name as what's already engraved from the original maker/owner. Its just a matter of a small legal fee for a new trust, some paper, and a few signatures (with a notary fee). I'm not a lawyer either, but if the new/old trusts had the same trust name, the trusts would have different trustees and different addresses. Pretty obvious to an examiner that the seller and buyer are different trusts/trustees. Other than that F4 transfers don't require any new engraving, you'd be correct on whatever it is you're trying to go on about... I left out the part about converting the sbr back to non-nfa and getting it taken off the registry. Then selling it (as rifle/pistol) and the new owner can Form1 their new purchase under their trust, which has the same name as the previous owner. I'm honestly not sure which way I'd prefer to do it (Form4 it to new buyer or remove it from registry, new owner do a Form1). Good news is the sbr/trust would already be engraved lol.
So you go through all that to just have to engrave a location? I'm at a loss for words for the amount of idiocy in this entire thread. Paraphrasing Billy Madison "Everyone here is now dumber for having read this thread, may God have mercy on our souls!" |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:23:49 AM EDT
[#19]
My barber told me I have to engrave every round I plan to shoot through my SBR.
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:32:06 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My barber told me I have to engrave every round I plan to shoot through my SBR. I have my thumbprint etched onto the case of every round I shoot, just to help out the LEO. 
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:39:26 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The instructions on the Form 1 clearly state that the maker must mark his name, city, and state. It's crystal clear. And yes, you could engrave the barrel. Only the serial is required to be on the receiver. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I get what everyone is saying. It is clear as mud. The price of an AR lower is not worth taking the chance so it won't hurt to further ID it with markings. The law page above says " if modifying an existing..." Leads me to believe it is fine to adopt the existing singularly marks on the lower without adding more engraving. Semantics and interpretation. I am reluctant to engrave my IMI Uzi but would love to SBR it. Oh well...more considerations to ponder. Maybe I can just engrave the short barrel so I can return it to the original config? The instructions on the Form 1 clearly state that the maker must mark his name, city, and state. It's crystal clear. And yes, you could engrave the barrel. Only the serial is required to be on the receiver. Good to know. I want to SBR my SW5 carbine, but didnt want to have to send out the entire firearm. So I just need to send the lower for engraving? It is one of the metal ones, not the polymer variety. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:56:21 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good to know. I want to SBR my SW5 carbine, but didnt want to have to send out the entire firearm. So I just need to send the lower for engraving? It is one of the metal ones, not the polymer variety. As long as it's considered a receiver/frame then that's fine. Doesn't matter if it's metal or polymer. Only the serial number has to be on metal. I'm not sure that the lower is considered a receiver on MP5s, it might be considered a trigger housing. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:57:55 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As long as it's considered a receiver/frame then that's fine. Doesn't matter if it's metal or polymer. Only the serial number has to be on metal. I'm not sure that the lower is considered a receiver on MP5s, it might be considered a trigger housing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Good to know. I want to SBR my SW5 carbine, but didnt want to have to send out the entire firearm. So I just need to send the lower for engraving? It is one of the metal ones, not the polymer variety. As long as it's considered a receiver/frame then that's fine. Doesn't matter if it's metal or polymer. Only the serial number has to be on metal. I'm not sure that the lower is considered a receiver on MP5s, it might be considered a trigger housing. I think you might be right. 
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Posted: 6/2/2016 10:05:24 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have my thumbprint etched onto the case of every round I shoot, just to help out the LEO. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My barber told me I have to engrave every round I plan to shoot through my SBR. I have my thumbprint etched onto the case of every round I shoot, just to help out the LEO. I spit on each one. DNA match every round. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 10:31:07 AM EDT
[#25]
On the MP5/SW5, the receiver is the "upper" - the part with the magazine well that houses the bolt carrier assembly. The "lower" is just the grip housing.
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Posted: 6/2/2016 10:51:30 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Only the serial number has to be on metal. And the regulation doesn't even have that as a requirement. It simply says "The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed..." It's been fairly standard for manufacturers to add a small metal plate to a polymer frame/receiver for the SN, but there could be other options. I could scratch/dremel/weld over a metal SN almost as easily as obliterating one on a polymer portion. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 10:58:12 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the regulation doesn't even have that as a requirement. It simply says "The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed..." It's been fairly standard for manufacturers to add a small metal plate to a polymer frame/receiver for the SN, but there could be other options. I could scratch/dremel/weld over a metal SN almost as easily as obliterating one on a polymer portion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Only the serial number has to be on metal. And the regulation doesn't even have that as a requirement. It simply says "The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed..." It's been fairly standard for manufacturers to add a small metal plate to a polymer frame/receiver for the SN, but there could be other options. I could scratch/dremel/weld over a metal SN almost as easily as obliterating one on a polymer portion. IIRC, it's in a CFR. I do know that it's in writing somewhere, I'll find it later when I have time. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 11:09:42 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IIRC, it's in a CFR. I do know that it's in writing somewhere, I'll find it later when I have time. Cool. If you find it, let me know. The portion I quoted above was from 27 CFR 479.102 on how firearms are to be identified. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 1:50:31 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you go through all that to just have to engrave a location? I'm at a loss for words for the amount of idiocy in this entire thread. Paraphrasing Billy Madison "Everyone here is now dumber for having read this thread, may God have mercy on our souls!" Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get your Form1 approved, engrave the sbr, etc. If a buyer wants to purchase the sbr/nfa item in the future, there's no reason the new buyer can't have the same trust name as what's already engraved from the original maker/owner. Its just a matter of a small legal fee for a new trust, some paper, and a few signatures (with a notary fee). I'm not a lawyer either, but if the new/old trusts had the same trust name, the trusts would have different trustees and different addresses. Pretty obvious to an examiner that the seller and buyer are different trusts/trustees. Other than that F4 transfers don't require any new engraving, you'd be correct on whatever it is you're trying to go on about... I left out the part about converting the sbr back to non-nfa and getting it taken off the registry. Then selling it (as rifle/pistol) and the new owner can Form1 their new purchase under their trust, which has the same name as the previous owner. I'm honestly not sure which way I'd prefer to do it (Form4 it to new buyer or remove it from registry, new owner do a Form1). Good news is the sbr/trust would already be engraved lol.So you go through all that to just have to engrave a location? I'm at a loss for words for the amount of idiocy in this entire thread. Paraphrasing Billy Madison "Everyone here is now dumber for having read this thread, may God have mercy on our souls!" You can thank The Truth About Guns for this moment of retardation. They seem to cause a lot of those. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 1:51:19 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As long as it's considered a receiver/frame then that's fine. Doesn't matter if it's metal or polymer. Only the serial number has to be on metal. I'm not sure that the lower is considered a receiver on MP5s, it might be considered a trigger housing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Good to know. I want to SBR my SW5 carbine, but didnt want to have to send out the entire firearm. So I just need to send the lower for engraving? It is one of the metal ones, not the polymer variety. As long as it's considered a receiver/frame then that's fine. Doesn't matter if it's metal or polymer. Only the serial number has to be on metal. I'm not sure that the lower is considered a receiver on MP5s, it might be considered a trigger housing. The lower on the MP5 is NOT the receiver. The receiver is the top portion (which houses the bolt, etc.). |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 2:09:05 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The instructions on the Form 1 clearly state that the maker must mark his name, city, and state. It's crystal clear. And yes, you could engrave the barrel. Only the serial is required to be on the receiver. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I get what everyone is saying. It is clear as mud. The price of an AR lower is not worth taking the chance so it won't hurt to further ID it with markings. The law page above says " if modifying an existing..." Leads me to believe it is fine to adopt the existing singularly marks on the lower without adding more engraving. Semantics and interpretation. I am reluctant to engrave my IMI Uzi but would love to SBR it. Oh well...more considerations to ponder. Maybe I can just engrave the short barrel so I can return it to the original config? The instructions on the Form 1 clearly state that the maker must mark his name, city, and state. It's crystal clear. And yes, you could engrave the barrel. Only the serial is required to be on the receiver. Does this mean that the engraving must be visible without disassembly? "The above mentioned information must be engraved, casted, stamped (impressing) or otherwise conspicuously placed or caused to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size of the Serial number shall be no smaller than 1/16 inch." |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 2:44:22 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does this mean that the engraving must be visible without disassembly? "The above mentioned information must be engraved, casted, stamped (impressing) or otherwise conspicuously placed or caused to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size of the Serial number shall be no smaller than 1/16 inch." That's the generally accepted interpretation. The only other time I've seen the ATF actually define "conspicuously" was in ATF Ruling 2002-6 The above regulations require markings that legibly identify each item or package and require that such markings are conspicuous. ATF has consistently taken the position that "legibly" marked means using exclusively Roman letters (A, a, B, b, C, c, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and so forth), and "conspicuous" means that all required markings must be placed in such a manner as to be wholly unobstructed from plain view. These regulations apply to licensed manufacturers and licensed importers relative to firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices, and to makers of National Firearms Act firearms. And then... Similarly, firearms and large capacity ammunition feeding devices which contain required markings obstructed in whole or in part from plain view must be remarked with required markings that satisfy the conspicuousness requirements described above. For example, required markings may not be placed on a portion of the barrel where the markings would be wholly or partially obstructed from view by another part of the firearm, such as a flash suppressor or bayonet mount. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:27:41 PM EDT
[#33]
..sorry, but I have a question also on this.
I have a few lowers they are "Multi". I cant clearly see the caliber on the barrels. I don't want to engrave the lower, due to using different uppers with different calibers. Can I engrave the upper "receiver" right under the picatinny rail like below 
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:59:58 PM EDT
[#34]
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
Who determines what constitutes a Recognized Abbrevation, of your name or your trust name? |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 8:16:32 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
..sorry, but I have a question also on this. I have a few lowers they are "Multi". I cant clearly see the caliber on the barrels. I don't want to engrave the lower, due to using different uppers with different calibers. Can I engrave the upper "receiver" right under the picatinny rail like below http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y514/bluehaya254/upper_zpsq0b0ydcx.jpg You can not register a lower using the "MULTI" marking on the lower - it has to be a specific caliber, and that has to be clearly marked. Here's where things get tricky, though: I do not know if marking the upper receiver would pass because the ATF only refers to the serial numbered part as the "receiver." |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 8:27:14 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's where things get tricky, though: I do not know if marking the upper receiver would pass because the ATF only refers to the serial numbered part as the "receiver." The definition of "receiver" is split between the upper and lower with an AR...so I'll tell you up front I have no idea if it's acceptable. That being said, I have a YHM upper marked 9mm. I engraved the lower with my info, and considered the upper being marked good enough. The barrel is not marked. If I've put forth the effort to file the stamp, engrave my trust name and location, and the only "issue" is the upper says 9mm instead of the lower...I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. That advice is worth what you just paid for it, so make your own decision. ETA...while the lower/serialized part is considered the firearm (and thus the controlled piece), here's the ATF definition from 27 CFR 478.11: Firearm frame or receiver. That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel. Last I checked...at a minimum, the upper contains the bolt and is where the barrel is attached.
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:32:58 PM EDT
[#37]
Firearm frame or receiver.
That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel. Works for me. 
Thanks |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 10:10:55 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cool. If you find it, let me know. The portion I quoted above was from 27 CFR 479.102 on how firearms are to be identified. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
IIRC, it's in a CFR. I do know that it's in writing somewhere, I'll find it later when I have time. Cool. If you find it, let me know. The portion I quoted above was from 27 CFR 479.102 on how firearms are to be identified. It's not a CFR, but it is an ATF requirement that the serial number be in metal. It's mentioned in 98R-341P, at least I think that's the correct number. It's the ruling that set the minimum depth and height requirements for engravings. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 10:54:26 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not a CFR, but it is an ATF requirement that the serial number be in metal. It's mentioned in 98R-341P, at least I think that's the correct number. It's the ruling that set the minimum depth and height requirements for engravings. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
IIRC, it's in a CFR. I do know that it's in writing somewhere, I'll find it later when I have time. Cool. If you find it, let me know. The portion I quoted above was from 27 CFR 479.102 on how firearms are to be identified. It's not a CFR, but it is an ATF requirement that the serial number be in metal. It's mentioned in 98R-341P, at least I think that's the correct number. It's the ruling that set the minimum depth and height requirements for engravings. That only applies to licensees "The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) is amending the regulations to prescribe minimum height and depth requirements for identification markings placed on firearms by licensed importers and licensed manufacturers" While it mentions metal, it does not specify it a requirement. It is interesting issue, given all polymer lowers like the ones from polymer80. You would not be able to F1/SBR them for instance. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 8:37:47 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The definition of "receiver" is split between the upper and lower with an AR...so I'll tell you up front I have no idea if it's acceptable. That being said, I have a YHM upper marked 9mm. I engraved the lower with my info, and considered the upper being marked good enough. The barrel is not marked. If I've put forth the effort to file the stamp, engrave my trust name and location, and the only "issue" is the upper says 9mm instead of the lower...I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. That advice is worth what you just paid for it, so make your own decision. ETA...while the lower/serialized part is considered the firearm (and thus the controlled piece), here's the ATF definition from 27 CFR 478.11: Firearm frame or receiver. That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel. Last I checked...at a minimum, the upper contains the bolt and is where the barrel is attached. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Here's where things get tricky, though: I do not know if marking the upper receiver would pass because the ATF only refers to the serial numbered part as the "receiver." The definition of "receiver" is split between the upper and lower with an AR...so I'll tell you up front I have no idea if it's acceptable. That being said, I have a YHM upper marked 9mm. I engraved the lower with my info, and considered the upper being marked good enough. The barrel is not marked. If I've put forth the effort to file the stamp, engrave my trust name and location, and the only "issue" is the upper says 9mm instead of the lower...I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. That advice is worth what you just paid for it, so make your own decision. ETA...while the lower/serialized part is considered the firearm (and thus the controlled piece), here's the ATF definition from 27 CFR 478.11: Firearm frame or receiver. That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel. Last I checked...at a minimum, the upper contains the bolt and is where the barrel is attached.
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Posted: 6/4/2016 3:26:07 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well ok then. Either way....the law says you have to as maker. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Meh... don't care, stopped engraving sbr's, not going to destroy the value of a rifle should I chose to go back to non sbr length for somthing that will never be looked at. Well ok then. Either way....the law says you have to as maker. a new receiver is a heck of a lot cheaper than a lawyer. Just saying |
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Posted: 6/5/2016 3:23:47 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
..sorry, but I have a question also on this. I have a few lowers they are "Multi". I cant clearly see the caliber on the barrels. I don't want to engrave the lower, due to using different uppers with different calibers. Can I engrave the upper "receiver" right under the picatinny rail like below http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y514/bluehaya254/upper_zpsq0b0ydcx.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
..sorry, but I have a question also on this. I have a few lowers they are "Multi". I cant clearly see the caliber on the barrels. I don't want to engrave the lower, due to using different uppers with different calibers. Can I engrave the upper "receiver" right under the picatinny rail like below http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y514/bluehaya254/upper_zpsq0b0ydcx.jpg From my interpretation of the relevant regulation, that approach seems perfectly legal to me and is how I plan to approach it. from the ATF National Firearms Act Handbook - CHAPTER 7. MANUFACTURING NFA FIREARMS Section 7.4 The identification of firearms 7.4.1 Serial numbers Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm’s frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm. The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch. 7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number? Alpha characters (letters), for example a name, are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number). ATF takes the view that marking “legibly” means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth). Deviations from this requirement have been found to seriously impair ATF’s ability to trace firearms involved in crime. 7.4.2 Additional information Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes: (1) The model, if such designation has been made; (2) The caliber or gauge; (3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and (4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business. 7.4.3 Measuring the depth of markings The depth of all markings is measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers is measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases) The regulation clearly states that the caliber markings can be on either the upper, lower or barrel. Granted, these are not necessarily NFA items but I can think of at least 2 manufactures that do it the same way. S&W has no caliber markings (not even Cal: Multi) on their lower receivers. I almost used a S&W lower for an SBR for that exact reason. Daniel Defense lowers are marked Cal: Multi but put the specific caliber markings on the upper receiver and I know DD has a factory SBR (MK18) and do it the same way with that one. I wouldn't even mess with marking the upper if the caliber is clearly marked on the barrel and that marking is not covered by the handguard? |
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Posted: 6/6/2016 10:31:17 AM EDT
[#43]
Thanks to BW (and this thread). I thought we should get the right information out there publicly.
If you see errors/omissions, let me know and I will make changes. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/06/06/atf-nfa-marking-requirements-get-it-right/ 
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Posted: 6/6/2016 10:45:28 AM EDT
[#44]
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Two posts above yours is ATF regulation § 479.102 How must firearms be identified? What you prefer is immaterial to what ATF requires. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So under law I can't put my trust name and city on the stock? Two posts above yours is ATF regulation § 479.102 How must firearms be identified? I am sbr'ing a sig MPX and I would prefer to engrave the skeleton stock so if I want to sell it I just pull the stock off and it's clean. What you prefer is immaterial to what ATF requires.
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Posted: 6/6/2016 11:31:52 AM EDT
[#45]
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So under law I can't put my trust name and city on the stock? Two posts above yours is ATF regulation § 479.102 How must firearms be identified? I am sbr'ing a sig MPX and I would prefer to engrave the skeleton stock so if I want to sell it I just pull the stock off and it's clean. What you prefer is immaterial to what ATF requires. Interesting. If you want to sell it, its now an easy sell but if you ever want to to change out the stocks you now must engrave the new one? |
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Posted: 6/6/2016 11:36:07 AM EDT
[#46]
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Interesting. If you want to sell it, its now an easy sell but if you ever want to to change out the stocks you now must engrave the new one? Stock isn't an approved location for engravings. |
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Posted: 6/6/2016 4:43:15 PM EDT
[#47]
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Stock isn't an approved location for engravings. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Interesting. If you want to sell it, its now an easy sell but if you ever want to to change out the stocks you now must engrave the new one? Stock isn't an approved location for engravings. Are you sure? Because if I ask the question often enough, eventually someone will say that I can engrave the bottom of my magazines. Reading all that ATF stuff gives me a headache and reading this thread is a waste of my valuable time. What if I use a permanent Sharpie and write the info on my sling? FFS people. |
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