That is according to the conversation my buddy had with ATF today when he was clearing up his e form denial. He had a SN correction. And was able to clear it up right away and they promptly sent him his stamp. (ATF and promptly sending stamp is an oxymoron, I know)

That was new to me. Guess I've missed something as I am awaiting my first form 1.

ETA. That is if you are using a serial numbered lower

That is in direct contradiction to the actual law and the NFA handbook.

I think his buddy is confusing Title I and Title II

People get bad information all the time. Even if it came directly from someone employed by the agency.

its not the first time I have heard this either.

Here is another link to the info fwiw

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/01/foghorn/do-you-need-to-engrave-your-form-1ed-sbr/

He's an idiot.

This and this state the contrary.  And both are much more reputable than an opinion piece on ttag.

No. He is not an idiot. He is pretty smart attorney. I am just relaying what he was told by the agent that issued his stamp. Plus we found a link addressing the same issue. We are both new to NFA and not trying to start a debate, however it would save a lot of hassle if we can simply use the existing SN and not have to engrave.

All I'm saying is that it seems questionable. No one adds a serial number to an existing lower that was serialized. Just the norm seems to be to add the trust and city/ state.

Meh... don't care, stopped engraving sbr's, not going to destroy the value of a rifle should I chose to go back to non sbr length for somthing that will never be looked at.

As an attorney he should have done his research and found the appropriate regulations.  They're really not hard to find.  And no, no one engraves a new serial number because you're allowed to re-use existing markings, it says as much right there on the Form 1.  It also says on the Form 1 that you must mark the firearm.  Hell, it even gives you the regulation that states as such.



ETA:  as BW pointed out, I was referring to the author of the ttag article, not your buddy.

This

Enough of the nonsense

I get what everyone is saying. It is clear as mud.

The price of an AR lower is not worth taking the chance so it won't hurt to further ID it with markings. The law page above says " if modifying an existing..." Leads me to believe it is fine to adopt the existing singularly marks on the lower without adding more engraving. Semantics and interpretation.

I am reluctant to engrave my IMI Uzi but would love to SBR it. Oh well...more considerations to ponder. Maybe I can just engrave the short barrel so I can return it to the original config?

The instructions on the Form 1 clearly state that the maker must mark his name, city, and state.  It's crystal clear.

And yes, you could engrave the barrel.  Only the serial is required to be on the receiver.

"Still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest..."  - Paul Simon

The ATF has many employees and it matters more to you than them that you follow the law.

Yea I heard all that, and in the end I hacked my info inside the trigger guard on my 6920 lower.  It looks like shit, but no one looks there anyway.

You can use the existing serial number. However, since you are filing a Form 1 you are the MAKER of the NFA weapon and the maker's name, city and state have to be engraved. This info can be on the barrel.

Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms  

§ 479.102 How must firearms be identified?

(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and

(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

(i) The model, if such designation has been made;

(ii) The caliber or gauge;

(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;

(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and

(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.

(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases).

(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.

(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or impracticable.

(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.

(f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.

(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.

Well ok then.  Either way....the law says you have to as maker.

So under law I can't put my trust name and city on the stock?  I am sbr'ing a sig MPX and I would prefer to engrave the skeleton stock so if I want to sell it I just pull the stock off and it's clean.

Two posts above yours is ATF regulation § 479.102 How must firearms be identified?





What you prefer is immaterial to what ATF requires.

You are free to put anything you want on your stock - but you've also got to engrave the required markings where they are required.

You may put your trust name and city on the stock, but you may not put the trust name and city on the stock in lieu of engraving it on the receiver, frame, or barrel.

Sigh

LOL.  Nick Leghorn is a fucking IDIOT.

This shit again.

And this is why if I ever decide I want an SBR, I'll be buying a complete rifle originally made as an SBR by the manufacturer on a Form 4.

Exactly. Thanks to BW for always clearing this up.

I stopped clicking on anything that says TTAG.

Not destroying anything. Have the engraving done at the minimum depth allowed by law. If you ever sell, have a machinist remove said engraving, leaving a VERY shadow depression where the engraving used to be. Refinish and done.

Or you could be a real gun person and never sell any guns. In that case you don't give a shit about value.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

I have no plans to sell any of my SBR's, and I absolutely hate having to engrave them. I see it as destroying some value as well depending on where it is placed. Thats what keeps me from buying most SBR's others have already formed, simply because I don't want some other guys name/trust on my gun.

If you never plan on selling them, then it has no effect on value.

What's a "wallet gun"?

Is it legal to remove engraving?

Technically, anything but the serial number is OK.

Ok I remembered it was something weird

Have you ever spent your hard earned money on stuff, or I guess you just don't give a shit? Just because I have no plans to sell something doesn't mean its worth nothing. I could change my mind tomorrow, and it would be nice to not have had to engrave meaningless crap that is readily available on the stamp copy that would be traveling with the gun no matter what anyway.

I have spent my hard earned money on  all of my stuff  (nobody gave me anything free) and I don't really care if I have to engrave it. The engraving is so small and inconsequential that I don't get all worried about it. I also don't get worried if my gun gets a scratch or some finish wear either.

If you're worried about engraving sounds like the form 1 world isn't for you.

I'm 12 deep so far, I'll manage. Why does engraving it not bother you? It may be small, but damn, getting names etched into a 2k gun that otherwise is new is still horseshit. Some its possible to engrave discreetly, others not at all. My guns I use have dings and scratches and thats just fine, having to permanently laser/cnc (again) meaningless info not so much. Its the law, so be it, but I swear some fellas seem happy about it.

Thanks for buying this brand new car, want to add some horsepower? Just engrave your name and home address into the drivers side door legibly, unobscured, and in plain view so that it can be seen by the proper authorities should the need arise. Also must be properly lit at night.

I have my name etched into a 6k dollar form 1'd SL8-G36C.  It doesn't bother me.

It's the law.  Simple as that.

I don't know the penalty for not engraving but I'm not going to find myself in the position to figure that out either.  Because I abide by the law.

Yes it may sound dumb, but that's life, and it's the law.

As for the second part you posted:

"Thanks for buying this brand new car, want to add some horsepower? Just engrave your name and home address into the drivers side door legibly, unobscured, and in plain view so that it can be seen by the proper authorities should the need arise. Also must be properly lit at night."

If it was required BY law, which it's not, I would get it done no questions asked.  Obviously you would fight it and be one of "those guys."

By all means take each prick with a smile on your face. Fight like hell up until somethings law then make it known why its bs after. I follow the law, but I'm not going to sit here and act like its just wonderful. 41F(P) is a good example. Trusts and E-file gets boned, and people were still excited about it. Next it will be 41Turnyourheadandcough and a few more things will get more complicated and then again...and again...and again.

Trusts and e-file won't be boned.  There is already a very convenient lawful way to get around the new changes.  Until they decide to write a law that says we can't do it anymore.

E file will not be possible after the July change. Silencershop and others have already posted about that.

E-file will still exist for those that can use it.

Out of the 16 stamps I have, only two of them were e-filed.  

It won't really do anything other than add a few steps to the current process for people who want to file as a trust.

Not really a concern for me because I made 25-30 extra packets that I put together for when I file a form 1 or form 4.  I just need to get the few extra things added to each one.

I am not sure how you are mailing the leap from people following to the law to liking it or taking it with a smile on their face.

Bitching about it on the Internet or anywhere else surely won't get it fixed.

Uh.........Efile disappeared for Form 3's and 4's over two years ago...........and the NFA world didn't grind to a halt did it?

The value of an engraved receiver may very well go up in the future, all it takes is the stroke of a pen.

Enjoy engraving while you can, because when you can't this trivial nuisance will just seem silly.

I talked with our local ATF guy about 8 years ago on this matter.

He told me it was illegal to engrave a firearm with your "manufacturer info"