question about NFA barrel length legality - Page 1

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - question about NFA barrel length legality

Posted: 11/17/2015 10:23:54 PM EDT

so, if I have a 16" barreled AR, and I have the machining capability to do it, If I cut it to 14.7 and thread it, and fit an a2 flash hider, and pin and weld it, is it legal? Isn't there 5 minutes or so there where you have a barrel that's been cut to 14.7 and threaded but with no permanently affixed muzzle device? If an ATF agent busted in your door at that moment, would you not have an illegal SBR in your hands? and say you stop to eat a sandwich before pinning on the muzzle break. How much time can you be considered to still be working on pinning and welding the new muzzle break on? if it's the next day? the next week?

Posted: 11/17/2015 9:16:28 PM EDT

[#1]

Just don't post the question on the Internet, cut and crown your own barrel and be very quiet about it.
You could always take the lower somewhere else if your that worried about it.

Posted: 11/17/2015 9:23:02 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
so, if I have a 16" barreled AR, and I have the machining capability to do it, If I cut it to 14.7 and thread it, and fit an a2 flash hider, and pin and weld it, is it legal? Isn't there 5 minutes or so there where you have a barrel that's been cut to 14.7 and threaded but with no permanently affixed muzzle device? If an ATF agent busted in your door at that moment, would you not have an illegal SBR in your hands? and say you stop to eat a sandwich before pinning on the muzzle break. How much time can you be considered to still be working on pinning and welding the new muzzle break on? if it's the next day? the next week?

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Lol no.

It's only an SBR if the upper is attached to the lower. Detach them and you won't have a problem. Unless you're a Crack dealer or have frequent interactions with federal agents I wouldn't worry about it

Posted: 11/17/2015 9:24:15 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
so, if I have a 16" barreled AR, and I have the machining capability to do it, If I cut it to 14.7 and thread it, and fit an a2 flash hider, and pin and weld it, is it legal? Isn't there 5 minutes or so there where you have a barrel that's been cut to 14.7 and threaded but with no permanently affixed muzzle device? If an ATF agent busted in your door at that moment, would you not have an illegal SBR in your hands? and say you stop to eat a sandwich before pinning on the muzzle break. How much time can you be considered to still be working on pinning and welding the new muzzle break on? if it's the next day? the next week?

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I don't think there is a fixed rule written down anywhere; just do it as one continuous process with no stopping and you'll be fine. The more time between those steps the riskier it gets; so, don't draw attention to yourself by asking questions like that in a public forum. And whatever you do don't write ATF asking for permission to take a lunch break between those steps.

Posted: 11/17/2015 9:24:50 PM EDT

[#4]

If it's "being machined," the barrel's length isn't an issue. The short period when you have the disassembled barrel on the machine being cut, crowned and threaded isn't a violation. ATF agents don't often "break down doors," and your having all the parts and tools to permanently attach a muzzle device would demonstrate that you weren't making an unregistered SBR.

I'll point out that an A2 flash hider in theory will make a 14.7" barrel 16.0", but you can't guarantee that it won't be 15.99" by the ATF's measurement procedure. Be careful about how you attach that A2 flash hider, so that you keep your length at or over 16". The ATF procedure calls for dropping a rod or dowel down the bore onto a closed bolt. You mark that rod or dowel at the end of the barrel (or non-removable attachment, like your A2 flash hider). That mark must be at least 16.0", and I'd aim for 16.1" or more just to be safe. Timing the A2 flash hider complicates things.

Be careful and set the length where you want it before you get started with the pin/weld step.

Posted: 11/17/2015 9:45:20 PM EDT

[#5]

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Quoted:
If it's "being machined," the barrel's length isn't an issue. The short period when you have the disassembled barrel on the machine being cut, crowned and threaded isn't a violation. ATF agents don't often "break down doors," and your having all the parts and tools to permanently attach a muzzle device would demonstrate that you weren't making an unregistered SBR.

I'll point out that an A2 flash hider in theory will make a 14.7" barrel 16.0", but you can't guarantee that it won't be 15.99" by the ATF's measurement procedure. Be careful about how you attach that A2 flash hider, so that you keep your length at or over 16". The ATF procedure calls for dropping a rod or dowel down the bore onto a closed bolt. You mark that rod or dowel at the end of the barrel (or non-removable attachment, like your A2 flash hider). That mark must be at least 16.0", and I'd aim for 16.1" or more just to be safe. Timing the A2 flash hider complicates things.

Be careful and set the length where you want it before you get started with the pin/weld step.

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Could he just shim it out and then weld it?

Posted: 11/17/2015 9:48:24 PM EDT

[#6]

Do you have a pistol lower? If not, this is a good reason to have one.

Posted: 11/17/2015 9:49:28 PM EDT

[#7]

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Could he just shim it out and then weld it?

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Precisely the way I'd do it, but the barrel needs to be properly threaded and relieved to make it work without a huge stack of shims.

Posted: 11/17/2015 9:51:45 PM EDT

[#8]

I don't understand the question.

There is no law against owning an upper receiver with a barrel less than 16" on it.

If there were, then every one of us who ever ordered a short barrel for a pistol build was a criminal before we built the pistol... I don't think so.

Now if you assemble it onto a rifle lower, you have an SBR and that's illegal.

Otherwise, it's just the upper for your pistol (or future SBR after the tax stamps are approved). Don't assemble it until you have the stamp or until it's pinned and welded, and you should be good to go.

I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice: just do it.

Posted: 11/17/2015 10:21:14 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
so, if I have a 16" barreled AR, and I have the machining capability to do it, If I cut it to 14.7 and thread it, and fit an a2 flash hider, and pin and weld it, is it legal? Isn't there 5 minutes or so there where you have a barrel that's been cut to 14.7 and threaded but with no permanently affixed muzzle device? If an ATF agent busted in your door at that moment, would you not have an illegal SBR in your hands? and say you stop to eat a sandwich before pinning on the muzzle break. How much time can you be considered to still be working on pinning and welding the new muzzle break on? if it's the next day? the next week?

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If you cut and thread the barrel while everything is still assembled on a firearm, yes, for five minutes you have an illegal firearm.

But, normal people take the barrel off, so it is just a spare part while you are doing all this machining, pinning and welding.....

Posted: 11/18/2015 1:15:47 AM EDT

[#10]

to be fair, i was just curious about how the law worked. I don't even have the machines to do any of this work, i just didn't know if that short period was technically illigal.

Posted: 11/18/2015 12:20:33 PM EDT

[#11]

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But, normal people take the barrel off, so it is just a spare part while you are doing all this machining, pinning and welding.....

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You said it a lot better (and blunter) than I did. Clarity is a great thing.

Posted: 11/18/2015 12:24:17 PM EDT

[#12]

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to be fair, i was just curious about how the law worked. I don't even have the machines to do any of this work, i just didn't know if that short period was technically illigal.

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The law does not cover every possibility, so common sense applies and often intent to commit a crime needs to be shown.

Posted: 11/18/2015 1:45:43 PM EDT

[#13]

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I don't understand the question.

There is no law against owning an upper receiver with a barrel less than 16" on it.
Yes, there is. If you own only an AR rifle and there is no legal configuration with that upper you will need an SBR tax stamp.

If there were, then every one of us who ever ordered a short barrel for a pistol build was a criminal before we built the pistol... I don't think so.
I would hope you had the stripped lower first.

Now if you assemble it onto a rifle lower, you have an SBR and that's illegal.
Assembly isn't required. Just having a short barreled upper under your control with no stripped lower or pistol AR means you are in constructive possession of an SBR.

Otherwise, it's just the upper for your pistol (or future SBR after the tax stamps are approved). Don't assemble it until you have the stamp or until it's pinned and welded, and you should be good to go.
No, don't buy that upper until you have your stripped lower or Form 1 in your hands.

I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice: just do it.

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Constructive possession.
If you possess a short bbl or short bbl upper with no way to legal configure it into a Title 1 firearm........it can be held that you are in constructive possession of a short bbl rifle.

That's why (as mentioned above) you have a stripped lower in hand before buying a short barreled upper.

Posted: 11/20/2015 6:57:08 PM EDT

[#14]

Some incorrect info in here. As far as the ATF is concerned:.
ATF FAQ:

May a FFL or an individual legally possess the parts to manufacture an SBR or SBS as long as no firearms are actually assembled?

A non-licensee or FFL who has not paid the SOT is required to register any NFA firearm via an ATF Form 1 (5320.1) prior to acquisition of the parts required to assemble such firearm.

A FFL (Type-7 or Type-10) who pays the Special Occupational Tax (SOT) may possess parts required to assemble NFA firearms.

If you don't have all the parts required to assemble, you are GTG. Note the ATF didn't say "spare" parts are ok. If you hypothetically have all the parts necessary to assemble... you would want to leave whatever parts you deem necessary with a friend/family member so you don't. For example...you can't assemble without a barrel nut.

Timing would likely be reasonable test. Schedule the work, get it done in a timely fashion. Don't take a month to do it...plan properly.

Posted: 11/20/2015 8:02:46 PM EDT

[#15]

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Quoted:

Constructive possession.
If you possess a short bbl or short bbl upper with no way to legal configure it into a Title 1 firearm........it can be held that you are in constructive possession of a short bbl rifle.

That's why (as mentioned above) you have a stripped lower in hand before buying a short barreled upper.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
I don't understand the question.

There is no law against owning an upper receiver with a barrel less than 16" on it.
Yes, there is. If you own only an AR rifle and there is no legal configuration with that upper you will need an SBR tax stamp.

If there were, then every one of us who ever ordered a short barrel for a pistol build was a criminal before we built the pistol... I don't think so.
I would hope you had the stripped lower first.

Now if you assemble it onto a rifle lower, you have an SBR and that's illegal.
Assembly isn't required. Just having a short barreled upper under your control with no stripped lower or pistol AR means you are in constructive possession of an SBR.

Otherwise, it's just the upper for your pistol (or future SBR after the tax stamps are approved). Don't assemble it until you have the stamp or until it's pinned and welded, and you should be good to go.
No, don't buy that upper until you have your stripped lower or Form 1 in your hands.

I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice: just do it.

Constructive possession.
If you possess a short bbl or short bbl upper with no way to legal configure it into a Title 1 firearm........it can be held that you are in constructive possession of a short bbl rifle.

That's why (as mentioned above) you have a stripped lower in hand before buying a short barreled upper.

Clarification: "stripped lower" is not good enough. It must be a lower, stripped or not, that was not first assembled as a rifle. A virgin lower, a lower first assembled as a pistol, or a stamped SBR lower is what is needed.

Posted: 11/21/2015 11:29:09 AM EDT

[#16]

Which gets us back to the suggestion to build a pistol lower and keep it on hand. Mine is the only AR I've built that I haven't managed to take to the range yet....

Posted: 11/21/2015 12:44:15 PM EDT

[#17]

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Which gets us back to the suggestion to build a pistol lower and keep it on hand. Mine is the only AR I've built that I haven't managed to take to the range yet....

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In some states an AR pistol is not legal.

Posted: 11/21/2015 10:45:36 PM EDT

[#18]

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In some states an AR pistol is not legal.

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Quoted:
Which gets us back to the suggestion to build a pistol lower and keep it on hand. Mine is the only AR I've built that I haven't managed to take to the range yet....

In some states an AR pistol is not legal.

True, sadly. But I don't think places that don't allow pistol ARs allow SBRs, either.

Posted: 11/22/2015 2:11:01 AM EDT

[#19]

I vaguely recall reading of a similar problem with someone wanting to swap the Vz.58 perm attached muzzle extender with a perm attached FH/Brake. Noting that a vz58 barrel is pressed in like an AK, and that a bare Vz.58 barrel is 15.5", it most certainly is an SBR when the muzzle extender is off and nothing is perm attached back on
An ATF letter was posted showing basically permission to do so provided the operation was done "without delay".

Posted: 11/22/2015 3:58:17 AM EDT

[#20]

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True, sadly. But I don't think places that don't allow pistol ARs allow SBRs, either.

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Quoted:
Which gets us back to the suggestion to build a pistol lower and keep it on hand. Mine is the only AR I've built that I haven't managed to take to the range yet....

In some states an AR pistol is not legal.

True, sadly. But I don't think places that don't allow pistol ARs allow SBRs, either.

There is at least one state that SBRs are lagel but AR pistols are not. It escapes me which state(s) it is; perhaps someone else will chime in.

Knowing me, it'll "pop into" my head at some random time,

Posted: 11/22/2015 10:55:06 AM EDT

[#21]

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There is at least one state that SBRs are lagel but AR pistols are not. It escapes me which state(s) it is; perhaps someone else will chime in.

Knowing me, it'll "pop into" my head at some random time,

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Which gets us back to the suggestion to build a pistol lower and keep it on hand. Mine is the only AR I've built that I haven't managed to take to the range yet....

In some states an AR pistol is not legal.

True, sadly. But I don't think places that don't allow pistol ARs allow SBRs, either.

There is at least one state that SBRs are lagel but AR pistols are not. It escapes me which state(s) it is; perhaps someone else will chime in.

Knowing me, it'll "pop into" my head at some random time,

You may be thinking about Maryland (SB281).