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Posted: 10/19/2014 8:45:16 AM EDT
So I picked up a AR pistol and put the sigbrace on it. What a hoot, now I kind of understand you guys
Anyway I went with a pistol because my job moves me around...a lot...and figured it would be easier to move. But with form 1's moving so quickly I'm kind of thinking about doing an SBR. So say I registered it as an SBR, do people buy SBR's? I'd imagine not with form ones moving so quickly so what are my other options if I went the SBR route and had to dump/transfer it for a move to a nonSBR friendly state? Thanks |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 8:59:04 AM EDT
[#1]
An SBR will require an approved 5320.20 before you take it out of state. Your pistol requires no such approval.
People buy SBRS for sure, but on the ar platform it's just as easy and probably cheaper to build (form 1) than buy (form 4). |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 9:11:36 AM EDT
[#2]
If you move to a non-SBR state, just slap a 16" upper on it.
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Posted: 10/19/2014 9:14:24 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An SBR will require an approved 5320.20 before you take it out of state. Your pistol requires no such approval. People buy SBRS for sure, but on the ar platform it's just as easy and probably cheaper to build (form 1) than buy (form 4). Quote HistoryQuoted:
An SBR will require an approved 5320.20 before you take it out of state. Your pistol requires no such approval. People buy SBRS for sure, but on the ar platform it's just as easy and probably cheaper to build (form 1) than buy (form 4). My concern is moving to a location that does not authorize SBR like Washington state before they changed the law. Basically what are my options for getting rid of it if I have to. Quoted:
If you move to a non-SBR state, just slap a 16" upper on it. But I'd still be required to 5320.20 right? So wouldn't that admit guilt? |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 9:30:49 AM EDT
[#4]
Once a 16" upper is on it, it is no longer an SBR, and not within the purview of the NFA.
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Posted: 10/19/2014 9:39:00 AM EDT
[#5]
So what happens to the stamp?
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Posted: 10/19/2014 10:24:30 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So what happens to the stamp?  |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 10:29:36 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's still effective if you change it back to its original configuration. The only way it wouldn't be valid is if you contact the ATF and inform them it's no longer an SBR. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So what happens to the stamp? The only reason to notify the NFA is if the change is "permanent". I've never seen an AR with a PERMANENT change. ARFCOMMERS dress them up like Barbies. 
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Posted: 10/19/2014 2:44:36 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Once a 16" upper is on it, it is no longer an SBR, and not within the purview of the NFA. Or slap the sig brace back on it. Don't get rid of it. I've moved to two different states over the years that didn't allow some of my previously-owned NFA stuff. During the time I was there, they changed the state laws to allow them. I was able to bring in my silencers immediately (and was shooting them the same day the law went into effect in both MO and MI) and I reconfigured my registered rifles back to SBR configuration once I got an approved 5320.20. I sold my SBS when I didn't think MI would ever make them legal. Now I'm sitting here, waiting on a transfer for another SBS to take its place. I should have just left the long barrel on it and been happy. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 4:16:49 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or slap the sig brace back on it. Don't get rid of it. I've moved to two different states over the years that didn't allow some of my previously-owned NFA stuff. During the time I was there, they changed the state laws to allow them. I was able to bring in my silencers immediately (and was shooting them the same day the law went into effect in both MO and MI) and I reconfigured my registered rifles back to SBR configuration once I got an approved 5320.20. I sold my SBS when I didn't think MI would ever make them legal. Now I'm sitting here, waiting on a transfer for another SBS to take its place. I should have just left the long barrel on it and been happy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Once a 16" upper is on it, it is no longer an SBR, and not within the purview of the NFA. Or slap the sig brace back on it. Don't get rid of it. I've moved to two different states over the years that didn't allow some of my previously-owned NFA stuff. During the time I was there, they changed the state laws to allow them. I was able to bring in my silencers immediately (and was shooting them the same day the law went into effect in both MO and MI) and I reconfigured my registered rifles back to SBR configuration once I got an approved 5320.20. I sold my SBS when I didn't think MI would ever make them legal. Now I'm sitting here, waiting on a transfer for another SBS to take its place. I should have just left the long barrel on it and been happy. The part in red is not true. Once an SBR is made, it becomes a rifle. It loses its' previous pistol classification. Also, as has been stated, one could change the upper out for one with 16+" barrel to remove it from the purview of NFA. However, one must still not possess the short upper without a legal use for it (i.e. Have a pistol lower), otherwise one runs afoul of constructive possession. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 6:21:29 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The part in red is not true. Once an SBR is made, it becomes a rifle. It loses its' previous pistol classification. Also, as has been stated, one could change the upper out for one with 16+" barrel to remove it from the purview of NFA. However, one must still not possess the short upper without a legal use for it (i.e. Have a pistol lower), otherwise one runs afoul of constructive possession. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Once a 16" upper is on it, it is no longer an SBR, and not within the purview of the NFA. Or slap the sig brace back on it. Don't get rid of it. I've moved to two different states over the years that didn't allow some of my previously-owned NFA stuff. During the time I was there, they changed the state laws to allow them. I was able to bring in my silencers immediately (and was shooting them the same day the law went into effect in both MO and MI) and I reconfigured my registered rifles back to SBR configuration once I got an approved 5320.20. I sold my SBS when I didn't think MI would ever make them legal. Now I'm sitting here, waiting on a transfer for another SBS to take its place. I should have just left the long barrel on it and been happy. The part in red is not true. Once an SBR is made, it becomes a rifle. It loses its' previous pistol classification. Also, as has been stated, one could change the upper out for one with 16+" barrel to remove it from the purview of NFA. However, one must still not possess the short upper without a legal use for it (i.e. Have a pistol lower), otherwise one runs afoul of constructive possession. So if I grab an extra striped "pistol" lower if I go to a nonfriendly state I'd be good? |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 7:29:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So if I grab an extra striped "pistol" lower if I go to a nonfriendly state I'd be good? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Once a 16" upper is on it, it is no longer an SBR, and not within the purview of the NFA. Or slap the sig brace back on it. Don't get rid of it. I've moved to two different states over the years that didn't allow some of my previously-owned NFA stuff. During the time I was there, they changed the state laws to allow them. I was able to bring in my silencers immediately (and was shooting them the same day the law went into effect in both MO and MI) and I reconfigured my registered rifles back to SBR configuration once I got an approved 5320.20. I sold my SBS when I didn't think MI would ever make them legal. Now I'm sitting here, waiting on a transfer for another SBS to take its place. I should have just left the long barrel on it and been happy. The part in red is not true. Once an SBR is made, it becomes a rifle. It loses its' previous pistol classification. Also, as has been stated, one could change the upper out for one with 16+" barrel to remove it from the purview of NFA. However, one must still not possess the short upper without a legal use for it (i.e. Have a pistol lower), otherwise one runs afoul of constructive possession. So if I grab an extra striped "pistol" lower if I go to a nonfriendly state I'd be good? Correct. Having a pistol lower allows you to have a legal use of the short upper. Having an SBR lower, a pistol lower, a short upper, and a 16+" upper will cover most any situation (traveling, hunting, concealed carry, etc.). |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 8:09:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what happens to the stamp? Stays in your collection. Everyone likes to collect stamps, right? You have no legal obligation to notify ATF, and as long as it's in non-NFA condition (i.e. no short upper) you don't need to file the 5320.20. Plus (and as has been said) if you ever move back to an SBR friendly state you can buy a new short upper and be back in business. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 8:13:46 PM EDT
[#13]
The part in red is not true. Once an SBR is made, it becomes a rifle. It loses its' previous pistol classification. Has ATF ruled on this? Because the rifle started out as a pistol. And we all know pistol>rifle>pistol is legal. The only difference is that it's a title II rifle, not a title 1 rifle. I guess the root question is, if you turn a pistol into a rifle, have you "made" a rifle? |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 8:26:51 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has ATF ruled on this? Because the rifle started out as a pistol. And we all know pistol>rifle>pistol is legal. The only difference is that it's a title II rifle, not a title 1 rifle. I guess the root question is, if you turn a pistol into a rifle, have you "made" a rifle? Quote HistoryQuoted:
The part in red is not true. Once an SBR is made, it becomes a rifle. It loses its' previous pistol classification. Has ATF ruled on this? Because the rifle started out as a pistol. And we all know pistol>rifle>pistol is legal. The only difference is that it's a title II rifle, not a title 1 rifle. I guess the root question is, if you turn a pistol into a rifle, have you "made" a rifle? In the case of an SBR, yes, you have "made" a rifle. The ATF Form 1 is called "Application to Make and Register a Firearm." |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 9:46:17 PM EDT
[#15]
I hate all of you
Thanks. Guess it's time to figure out efile. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 10:15:01 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In the case of an SBR, yes, you have "made" a rifle. The ATF Form 1 is called "Application to Make and Register a Firearm." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The part in red is not true. Once an SBR is made, it becomes a rifle. It loses its' previous pistol classification. Has ATF ruled on this? Because the rifle started out as a pistol. And we all know pistol>rifle>pistol is legal. The only difference is that it's a title II rifle, not a title 1 rifle. I guess the root question is, if you turn a pistol into a rifle, have you "made" a rifle? In the case of an SBR, yes, you have "made" a rifle. The ATF Form 1 is called "Application to Make and Register a Firearm." Yes, but you made it from a pistol, which can be returned to pistol configuration. So once it's SBRd it's prior history as a pistol doesn't count? And ATF has ruled on this? |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:10:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, but you made it from a pistol, which can be returned to pistol configuration. So once it's SBRd it's prior history as a pistol doesn't count? And ATF has ruled on this? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The part in red is not true. Once an SBR is made, it becomes a rifle. It loses its' previous pistol classification. Has ATF ruled on this? Because the rifle started out as a pistol. And we all know pistol>rifle>pistol is legal. The only difference is that it's a title II rifle, not a title 1 rifle. I guess the root question is, if you turn a pistol into a rifle, have you "made" a rifle? In the case of an SBR, yes, you have "made" a rifle. The ATF Form 1 is called "Application to Make and Register a Firearm." Yes, but you made it from a pistol, which can be returned to pistol configuration. So once it's SBRd it's prior history as a pistol doesn't count? And ATF has ruled on this? From atf-p-5320-8 (National Firearms Act Handbook): Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components. Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon. So, in the case of an SBR, the particular feature that puts the SBR in the purview of the NFA is the short barrel. The short barrel would need to be removed for the SBR to not be in the purview of the NFA. Even of the stock were removed, the short barrel itself would cause it to be an SBR within the eyes of the NFA. |
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Posted: 10/20/2014 2:31:21 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From atf-p-5320-8 (National Firearms Act Handbook): Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components. Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon. So, in the case of an SBR, the particular feature that puts the SBR in the purview of the NFA is the short barrel. The short barrel would need to be removed for the SBR to not be in the purview of the NFA. Even of the stock were removed, the short barrel itself would cause it to be an SBR within the eyes of the NFA. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The part in red is not true. Once an SBR is made, it becomes a rifle. It loses its' previous pistol classification. Has ATF ruled on this? Because the rifle started out as a pistol. And we all know pistol>rifle>pistol is legal. The only difference is that it's a title II rifle, not a title 1 rifle. I guess the root question is, if you turn a pistol into a rifle, have you "made" a rifle? In the case of an SBR, yes, you have "made" a rifle. The ATF Form 1 is called "Application to Make and Register a Firearm." Yes, but you made it from a pistol, which can be returned to pistol configuration. So once it's SBRd it's prior history as a pistol doesn't count? And ATF has ruled on this? From atf-p-5320-8 (National Firearms Act Handbook): Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components. Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon. So, in the case of an SBR, the particular feature that puts the SBR in the purview of the NFA is the short barrel. The short barrel would need to be removed for the SBR to not be in the purview of the NFA. Even of the stock were removed, the short barrel itself would cause it to be an SBR within the eyes of the NFA. I'm going to disagree with you there. There's two features that make an SBR an SBR: a short barrel and a stock. If you remove the stock, it's no longer a rifle. Of course the ATF is inept and our laws are poorly written by people who don't understand firearms, so take my opinion for what it's worth. |
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Posted: 10/20/2014 3:00:16 AM EDT
[#19]
True, there are two features that make an SBR an SBR, the stock and the barrel. But only one of those (the barrel) is the "particular feature" that makes an SBR under the purview of the NFA. They sepcifically say "specific feature" and "particular feature" rather than "any feature" or just "feature" or "features." In every example in that section of taking an NFA firearm (not just SBRs) out of the NFA purview, NFA always mentions changing or modifying the barrel, never the stock?
Also, if all that was needed was to remove the stock from an AR SBR (that was originally a pistol), then there would never be a need to fill out a 5320.20 to travel across state lines. Yet, we never hear anybody ever proclaiming they do this. |
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Posted: 10/20/2014 3:33:24 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
True, there are two features that make an SBR an SBR, the stock and the barrel. But only one of those (the barrel) is the "particular feature" that makes an SBR under the purview of the NFA. They sepcifically say "specific feature" and "particular feature" rather than "any feature" or just "feature" or "features." In every example in that section of taking an NFA firearm (not just SBRs) out of the NFA purview, NFA always mentions changing or modifying the barrel, never the stock? Also, if all that was needed was to remove the stock from an AR SBR (that was originally a pistol), then there would never be a need to fill out a 5320.20 to travel across state lines. Yet, we never hear anybody ever proclaiming they do this. Huh? You contradicted your first sentence with your second sentence. An AR pistol doesn't fall under the purview of the NFA because it has no stock. So take the stock off an SBR and you have...a pistol. Or maybe a firearm. But you don't have an SBR. If putting a 16" barrel on it removes it from the purview of the NFA, removing the stock should do the same because the firearm is no longer in a Title II configuration. |
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Posted: 10/20/2014 4:08:54 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Huh? You contradicted your first sentence with your second sentence. An AR pistol doesn't fall under the purview of the NFA because it has no stock. So take the stock off an SBR and you have...a pistol. Or maybe a firearm. But you don't have an SBR. If putting a 16" barrel on it removes it from the purview of the NFA, removing the stock should do the same because the firearm is no longer in a Title II configuration. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
True, there are two features that make an SBR an SBR, the stock and the barrel. But only one of those (the barrel) is the "particular feature" that makes an SBR under the purview of the NFA. They sepcifically say "specific feature" and "particular feature" rather than "any feature" or just "feature" or "features." In every example in that section of taking an NFA firearm (not just SBRs) out of the NFA purview, NFA always mentions changing or modifying the barrel, never the stock? Also, if all that was needed was to remove the stock from an AR SBR (that was originally a pistol), then there would never be a need to fill out a 5320.20 to travel across state lines. Yet, we never hear anybody ever proclaiming they do this. Huh? You contradicted your first sentence with your second sentence. An AR pistol doesn't fall under the purview of the NFA because it has no stock. So take the stock off an SBR and you have...a pistol. Or maybe a firearm. But you don't have an SBR. If putting a 16" barrel on it removes it from the purview of the NFA, removing the stock should do the same because the firearm is no longer in a Title II configuration. No contradiction at all. The NFA is concerned with what the firearm currently is (a registered short barrel rifle, and in their eyes, a rifle), not what it was originally (a pistol). NFA says to take a SBR out of their purview, one must remove or replace the "particular feature" making it a non-SBR, but still a rifle. In all of their examples, they specifically mention changing the barrel, never the stock. They never say one can "return firearm to original configuration" as a means to take an SBR out of NFA purview. Removing a stock from an SBR makes it into a stockless SBR. Anyway, we can discuss this until we are blue in the face. Feel free to contact the ATF and get a ruling on this. If they do rule that simply removing a stock from an AR SBR (that was originally a pistol) takes the SBR out of NFA purview, I would be more than happy to post in this thread that I was incorrect. |
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Posted: 10/20/2014 12:45:19 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No contradiction at all. The NFA is concerned with what the firearm currently is (a registered short barrel rifle, and in their eyes, a rifle), not what it was originally (a pistol). NFA says to take a SBR out of their purview, one must remove or replace the "particular feature" making it a non-SBR, but still a rifle. In all of their examples, they specifically mention changing the barrel, never the stock. They never say one can "return firearm to original configuration" as a means to take an SBR out of NFA purview. Removing a stock from an SBR makes it into a stockless SBR. Anyway, we can discuss this until we are blue in the face. Feel free to contact the ATF and get a ruling on this. If they do rule that simply removing a stock from an AR SBR (that was originally a pistol) takes the SBR out of NFA purview, I would be more than happy to post in this thread that I was incorrect. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
True, there are two features that make an SBR an SBR, the stock and the barrel. But only one of those (the barrel) is the "particular feature" that makes an SBR under the purview of the NFA. They sepcifically say "specific feature" and "particular feature" rather than "any feature" or just "feature" or "features." In every example in that section of taking an NFA firearm (not just SBRs) out of the NFA purview, NFA always mentions changing or modifying the barrel, never the stock? Also, if all that was needed was to remove the stock from an AR SBR (that was originally a pistol), then there would never be a need to fill out a 5320.20 to travel across state lines. Yet, we never hear anybody ever proclaiming they do this. Huh? You contradicted your first sentence with your second sentence. An AR pistol doesn't fall under the purview of the NFA because it has no stock. So take the stock off an SBR and you have...a pistol. Or maybe a firearm. But you don't have an SBR. If putting a 16" barrel on it removes it from the purview of the NFA, removing the stock should do the same because the firearm is no longer in a Title II configuration. No contradiction at all. The NFA is concerned with what the firearm currently is (a registered short barrel rifle, and in their eyes, a rifle), not what it was originally (a pistol). NFA says to take a SBR out of their purview, one must remove or replace the "particular feature" making it a non-SBR, but still a rifle. In all of their examples, they specifically mention changing the barrel, never the stock. They never say one can "return firearm to original configuration" as a means to take an SBR out of NFA purview. Removing a stock from an SBR makes it into a stockless SBR. Anyway, we can discuss this until we are blue in the face. Feel free to contact the ATF and get a ruling on this. If they do rule that simply removing a stock from an AR SBR (that was originally a pistol) takes the SBR out of NFA purview, I would be more than happy to post in this thread that I was incorrect. I understand what you're saying. However, I don't care what their examples are. I care what the law says. I've thought about writing a letter to the Tech Branch about this, but I live in Texas and I don't need to go to another state to shoot. And if I did want to take an SBR out of state, I could just file the form so it really doesn't matter to me. |
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