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Posted: 8/25/2014 5:35:42 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
My brother and I were talking about creating a trust alone with a buddy of his and splitting the cost. The main reason for the share is that I can will the gun(s) to my brother should anything happen. I want to build and SBR with a can this year. Is this a good idea? I will probably also add my wife and kid at some point too. Go easy on me, I barely understand trusts even after reading up on them You cant will anything in the trust because YOU dont own those firearms........the trust does. With afirearm possessed by an individual, should anything happen.....your beneficiaries just file a form 5. With a trust you arent leaving anything because the trust is the possessor. |
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Posted: 8/25/2014 7:00:31 PM EDT
[#2]
If you have wife and kids listed as beneficiaries on the trust, they possess the goods should something happen.
Trusts here are $250 - just get one without your brother. |
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Posted: 8/25/2014 9:02:04 PM EDT
[#3]
If I put another person on my trust, does that mean they can be in possession of my can/sbr/etc without me being there?
As is my buddy is on my trust and take it out shooting, have it in his home so long as he has the stamp? |
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Posted: 8/25/2014 9:09:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I put another person on my trust, does that mean they can be in possession of my can/sbr/etc without me being there? As is my buddy is on my trust and take it out shooting, have it in his home so long as he has the stamp? Yes. Any trustee can possess and use property owned by the trust. I would never do something like that, but if I did, I'd make sure he has a copy of the trust and stamp. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 6:58:59 AM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 8/26/2014 1:19:55 PM EDT
[#6]
I would be very wary of setting up a trust that includes your brother's buddy without utilizing the services of a lawyer...
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Posted: 8/26/2014 1:51:49 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryHummm.... How legit do you think this is? |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 2:40:36 PM EDT
[#8]
Do your own trust, with your wife and brother as trustees. Your kid as the beneficiary.
Absolutely no friends of your brother. The only friend I'd ever put on my trust is one I've been friends with since junior high. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 2:55:43 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hummm.... How legit do you think this is? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hummm.... How legit do you think this is? I have 3 suppressors and an SBR using it. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 3:07:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Think about what you are doing here before you do it...
You want to spend your own money on expensive NFA toys and allow your friends to borrow them out of your presence. That's a lot of faith and a lot of liability, make sure they are trustworthy and educated on NFA regs. You could be held responsible for what they do and their actions could cost you the gun. Generally, I think loaning guns is very bad policy in this day and age, especially when accompanied by esoteric NFA regs that many are not familiar with. A trust for estate planning, absolutely, but understand there is very little that a trust does that can't be done by an individual with a will. NFA firearms transfer free to heirs or beneficiaries either way, there is no unilateral benefit here. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 3:35:11 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You cant will anything in the trust because YOU dont own those firearms........the trust does. With afirearm possessed by an individual, should anything happen.....your beneficiaries just file a form 5. With a trust you arent leaving anything because the trust is the possessor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My brother and I were talking about creating a trust alone with a buddy of his and splitting the cost. The main reason for the share is that I can will the gun(s) to my brother should anything happen. I want to build and SBR with a can this year. Is this a good idea? I will probably also add my wife and kid at some point too. Go easy on me, I barely understand trusts even after reading up on them You cant will anything in the trust because YOU dont own those firearms........the trust does. With afirearm possessed by an individual, should anything happen.....your beneficiaries just file a form 5. With a trust you arent leaving anything because the trust is the possessor. Well now after reading that I'm even more confused on trusts.. how is it they own the sbr if you paid for it? |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 3:45:23 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well now after reading that I'm even more confused on trusts.. how is it they own the sbr if you paid for it? When you file the Form 1 or Form 4 with the Trust as the Maker/Transferee the Trust paid for the SBR. ATF doesn't care where the payment came from, but as the grantor/trustee you are authorized to make payments on behalf of the trust. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 3:48:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well now after reading that I'm even more confused on trusts.. how is it they own the sbr if you paid for it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My brother and I were talking about creating a trust alone with a buddy of his and splitting the cost. The main reason for the share is that I can will the gun(s) to my brother should anything happen. I want to build and SBR with a can this year. Is this a good idea? I will probably also add my wife and kid at some point too. Go easy on me, I barely understand trusts even after reading up on them You cant will anything in the trust because YOU dont own those firearms........the trust does. With afirearm possessed by an individual, should anything happen.....your beneficiaries just file a form 5. With a trust you arent leaving anything because the trust is the possessor. Well now after reading that I'm even more confused on trusts.. how is it they own the sbr if you paid for it? It doesn't matter who pays for the NFA item. The trust legally owns the item with all trustees granted equal rights to possession. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 4:01:06 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you file the Form 1 or Form 4 with the Trust as the Maker/Transferee the Trust paid for the SBR. ATF doesn't care where the payment came from, but as the grantor/trustee you are authorized to make payments on behalf of the trust. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Well now after reading that I'm even more confused on trusts.. how is it they own the sbr if you paid for it? When you file the Form 1 or Form 4 with the Trust as the Maker/Transferee the Trust paid for the SBR. ATF doesn't care where the payment came from, but as the grantor/trustee you are authorized to make payments on behalf of the trust. And to own/build an sbr you have to have a trust? |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 4:04:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And to own/build an sbr you have to have a trust? Don't have to. If you can get CLEO signature, you can register as an individual. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 4:05:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have 3 suppressors and an SBR using it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Hummm.... How legit do you think this is? I have 3 suppressors and an SBR using it. Which means jack shit. 
An eighth grader can draft a document that will satisfy ATF. The trick is how well that trust will stand up in ten years or whenever the grantor dies. ATF doesn't check the validity of each trust document or run it by someone skilled in a particular states laws. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 4:07:40 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't have to. If you can get CLEO signature, you can register as an individual. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And to own/build an sbr you have to have a trust? Don't have to. If you can get CLEO signature, you can register as an individual. Corporations, to include LLCs, are another option. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 4:42:22 PM EDT
[#18]
Great . Thanks guys I'll have to do more research on both before I spend any money
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Posted: 8/26/2014 5:14:38 PM EDT
[#19]
Regardless of who paid for the item, once it has been filed under a trust, it now belongs to the trust, not you. That is something you should think hard about before putting a friend on your trust. If you do not need help paying for the items, I would only put people in the trust who you would want to have the items should you die and the trust needs to specify who gets what when the trustees die. If your buddy wants to buy his own NFA stuff, then he can get his own trust. It's a terrible idea to put several people on one trust just to save a few hundred bucks instead of each person making their own trust. The only people you want on your trust are people who you feel comfortable with them having possession of trust items at any time and people you would want to inherit the items if something happens to you, I only have people who meet both of those on my trust. I am single with no kids so my parents and brother are the only ones on my trust. If I die, it all goes to my dad, if he isn't able or is already dead then it goes to my brother.
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Posted: 8/26/2014 5:58:59 PM EDT
[#20]
Think of a Trust as a person that can't make his own decisions, but is of age to own property. The Trust, that we refer to as a person for this example, doesn't die. He just holds onto the stuff until your son is old enough to legally own it. But in the mean time if you were to die, your wife can maintain control of your guns, cars, and rental properties held by the Trust, on behalf of your son, until he is of age.
You can list your wife as a Trustee, or beneficiary (who the property is designated for.) You've heard the term "Trust fund baby." This is the teenage punk that's driving fancy cars and doing dumb things with money. The punk's parents put the money in a Trust, because in the event of their death, they want someone to maintain control of the money, until their teenage punk is old enough. The Trustees designated by the parents have no claim on the $100 million dollars they left. They are just someone the parents trust to watch after the money until the kid is old enough. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 3:26:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Great info. Thank you gentlemen.
I would still add my brother to the trust, he lives 100 miles away The other guy, not so much now. |
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Posted: 8/28/2014 10:37:14 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Great info. Thank you gentlemen. I would still add my brother to the trust, he lives 100 miles away The other guy, not so much now. Not the worst of ideas, but I would definitely not add the friend. Only other person that is a Co-Trustee on mine is my father and that's only because I'm active duty .mil. He lives in an NFA friendly state and if I get orders overseas, to a non-friendly NFA state, or get deployed, I can file the paperwork and transfer everything to his place of residence until I get orders again. Other then that, I wouldn't even bother putting anybody else on there. It isn't that much money in the first place and anyone on the trust can legally transfer or sell any of the property owned by the trust and you can't do jack shit about it. Of course you know your brother better than I do, but I've seen family members do shitty stuff to each other even when their relatives "thought they knew them." Of course, YMMV. Good luck either way. |
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Posted: 8/31/2014 9:27:45 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Great info. Thank you gentlemen. I would still add my brother to the trust, he lives 100 miles away The other guy, not so much now. I was thinking of adding my brother to my trust, but then I decided against it. The reason is that I would only allow my wife and kids to be the beneficiaries, period. He has no children, but I could see his wife taking issue with this. |
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Posted: 8/31/2014 10:17:53 AM EDT
[#24]
Here's my advice, having just gone through the process for the first time (form 1 and 4).
In Ohio, I would absolutely recommend an LLC over a trust. It's $150 and ridiculously easy to setup/file, and requires no dumb CLEO signatures, fingerprints, etc. and very minimal paperwork. The LLC also lasts "forever" in Ohio, so it's a one-time fee. LLC's work different than a trust in some regards, but I agree that you should set it up for yourself. While you trust your friends now, the future is unpredictable, and having high-dollar NFA items at stake, I would keep them registered to myself only. If you're near Cinci, shoot me a PM for a private class3 dealer to transfer. |
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