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OH, USA
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Posted: 1/21/2016 4:26:13 PM EDT
[#1]
Length of my Kel-Tec SBR project. The PLR-16 has a 9.2" barrel and is 18.5 oal. The SU-16C has a 16" barrel and is 35.5 extended or 25.5 folded. the difference in barrel lenth is 6.8" so that would make the PLR-16 with the addition of the folding stock 28.7 or 18.7
My question is what they wanted on that form. The extended length with the stock folded 28.7 inch? |
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Posted: 1/21/2016 4:28:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BigWaylon]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By motorcycle_dan:
Thank you, I went looking for the guides and couldn't find. Lots of data to sort through and most seemed to be for an individual. Someone specifically said look for your posts. So thanks again. Should've asked...why not use EForms? If you want to go that route, this thread will walk you through it step by step. |
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Posted: 1/21/2016 4:28:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BigWaylon]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By motorcycle_dan:
Length of my Kel-Tec SBR project. The PLR-16 has a 9.2" barrel and is 18.5 oal. The SU-16C has a 16" barrel and is 35.5 extended or 25.5 folded. the difference in barrel lenth is 6.8" so that would make the PLR-16 with the addition of the folding stock 28.7 or 18.7 My question is what they wanted on that form. The extended length with the stock folded 28.7 inch? OAL on form is fully extended. (Which doesn't make sense, but it's what they want). And just round the stuff off. 29" would be good, if 28.7" is the actual measurement. |
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Posted: 2/11/2016 9:25:01 PM EDT
[#4]
I'm having a problem paying for my stamp on the efile site.
I get to the certify screen and I get the green box that says the app is validated, I check the certify box and click on pay. The window to pay pops up and all it contains is a "close" button. I've been through the whole thing and can't see anything wrong. Anybody have ideas? |
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Posted: 2/11/2016 9:59:01 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By C_Sly:
I'm having a problem paying for my stamp on the efile site. I get to the certify screen and I get the green box that says the app is validated, I check the certify box and click on pay. The window to pay pops up and all it contains is a "close" button. I've been through the whole thing and can't see anything wrong. Anybody have ideas? Sometimes there's a glitch. I've had to sign out and sign back in a few times on the same form before. Sometimes it saves the form and sometimes you gotta redo the whole thing.... |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 8:38:40 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jparish62:
Sometimes there's a glitch. I've had to sign out and sign back in a few times on the same form before. Sometimes it saves the form and sometimes you gotta redo the whole thing.... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jparish62:
Originally Posted By C_Sly:
I'm having a problem paying for my stamp on the efile site. I get to the certify screen and I get the green box that says the app is validated, I check the certify box and click on pay. The window to pay pops up and all it contains is a "close" button. I've been through the whole thing and can't see anything wrong. Anybody have ideas? Sometimes there's a glitch. I've had to sign out and sign back in a few times on the same form before. Sometimes it saves the form and sometimes you gotta redo the whole thing.... I've been logging off and back on for three days and it's still the same. I'm afraid I'm going to have to file the old fashioned way. |
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Posted: 2/13/2016 12:08:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: B585]
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By C_Sly:
I've been logging off and back on for three days and it's still the same. I'm afraid I'm going to have to file the old fashioned way. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By C_Sly:
Originally Posted By jparish62:
Originally Posted By C_Sly:
I'm having a problem paying for my stamp on the efile site. I get to the certify screen and I get the green box that says the app is validated, I check the certify box and click on pay. The window to pay pops up and all it contains is a "close" button. I've been through the whole thing and can't see anything wrong. Anybody have ideas? Sometimes there's a glitch. I've had to sign out and sign back in a few times on the same form before. Sometimes it saves the form and sometimes you gotta redo the whole thing.... I've been logging off and back on for three days and it's still the same. I'm afraid I'm going to have to file the old fashioned way. Have you tried a different browser? |
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Posted: 2/13/2016 9:39:33 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By C_Sly:
I've been logging off and back on for three days and it's still the same. I'm afraid I'm going to have to file the old fashioned way. I've actually had the most luck with an iPhone. I only use my laptop to upload the attachments, and use my phone for everything else. If you don't have a smartphone, borrow somebody's and try to login and pay, then submit. |
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Posted: 2/13/2016 11:18:28 AM EDT
[#9]
Thanks all.
I'll try finishing the e-form on my phone but of course right now The whole site is down! 
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Posted: 2/13/2016 1:55:28 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By C_Sly:
Thanks all. I'll try finishing the e-form on my phone but of course right now The whole site is down! I just logged in. 12:54pm EST on Sat 2/13. |
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Posted: 2/13/2016 5:14:01 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigWaylon:
I just logged in. 12:54pm EST on Sat 2/13. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigWaylon:
Originally Posted By C_Sly:
Thanks all. I'll try finishing the e-form on my phone but of course right now The whole site is down! I just logged in. 12:54pm EST on Sat 2/13. Thanks. i finished it up on my Android phone. Now the wait... |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 2/16/2016 12:45:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Druwzfostr]
[#12]
Alright guys, I'm filling out a form 1 as an individual and have a couple questions. In box 8, name and title of authorized official.... Do I list my name? In boxes 13-16 can I leave them blank as I am a citizen or Mark "no"? On box for additional description I put my name and address....? This is my first rodeo and most how to things are for a trust or using the old form 1 style.thank!
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Posted: 2/16/2016 7:54:54 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Druwzfostr:
Alright guys, I'm filling out a form 1 as an individual and have a couple questions. 1. In box 8, name and title of authorized official.... Do I list my name? 2. In boxes 13-16 can I leave them blank as I am a citizen or Mark "no"? 3. On box for additional description I put my name and address....? This is my first rodeo and most how to things are for a trust or using the old form 1 style.thank! 1. Yes 2. The instruction tell you to answer 13-16 if you answered "NO" to 11.i, else skip it 3. Yes (we used to all leave this blank, but they've changed the wording on the new form...maybe they still accept them blank, but I've not filed a new version of the paper form) |
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Posted: 2/20/2016 4:11:06 PM EDT
[#14]
I'm sure this has been covered before but I can't seem to find it.
With 41P looming, if I file a form 1 tomorrow on efile, would I still fall under previous rules where fingerprints are not required? I will be using a trust. I'm just trying to get clarification because I'm hearing different things. Any help is appreciated. |
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Posted: 2/20/2016 5:10:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BigWaylon]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TxMarine832:
I'm sure this has been covered before but I can't seem to find it. With 41P looming, if I file a form 1 tomorrow on efile, would I still fall under previous rules where fingerprints are not required? I will be using a trust. I'm just trying to get clarification because I'm hearing different things. Any help is appreciated. All submissions are held to the rules in place when they're submitted (or postmarked). 7/13/16 is the date the new rules go in effect, unless something changes. Go read page 164 of 41F for proof. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 4/3/2016 10:45:28 AM EDT
[#16]
Alright guys, I mailed my paper Form 1 off and realized I didn't include the certification of compliance. Suggestions? Call them and ask if I can mail it separately?
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Posted: 4/3/2016 12:07:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Druwzfostr:
Alright guys, I mailed my paper Form 1 off and realized I didn't include the certification of compliance. Suggestions? Call them and ask if I can mail it separately? Did you file as an individual, or entity? They're not required for entity applications. Did you file using the current Form 1? (The one with the 3rd page for payment by CC). If so, the CoC info is now included, so even as an individual you're good assuming you filled out page 2. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 4/3/2016 1:47:23 PM EDT
[#18]
I filed as an individual, I included the payment page with the pay by check box filled in. So I am good?
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Posted: 4/3/2016 2:30:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Druwzfostr:
I filed as an individual, I included the payment page with the pay by check box filled in. So I am good? The pay by check page doesn't do anything...but if you had that page, you were using the most current form. The bottom half of page 2 is where the CoC questions can be found. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 4/3/2016 4:43:37 PM EDT
[#20]
Bigwaylon, Thanks for taking the time to respond!
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/8/2016 10:20:14 AM EDT
[#21]
Looking to form 1 another rifle. When measuring a SBR with a recessed barrel, like a 9mm AR, do you measure from the end of the rail or the end of the recessed barrel?
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Posted: 4/8/2016 11:47:28 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CDDD:
Looking to form 1 another rifle. When measuring a SBR with a recessed barrel, like a 9mm AR, do you measure from the end of the rail or the end of the recessed barrel? You can remove that rail and the rifle still functions, right? OAL would be to the end of the barrel. |
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Posted: 4/25/2016 4:27:39 PM EDT
[#23]
The .pdf linked in the first thread is12 years old according to the last update...
Question 1: Is it really okay to put a "range" or "less than" when it asks for the overall length? That seems like something the ATF would kick back, but I have no experience with this! Question 2: Can I just guess and use 29.5" for a 10.5" barrel with SOPMOD Bravo or CTR stock? I don't have everything to measure. Question 3: If I plan on running an 11.5" barrel from time-to-time, which barrel length and OAL should I list? 10.5 or 11.5? I'm buying the 10.5" first...then will be buying an 11.5" down the road. Thank you for any help on this! |
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Posted: 4/25/2016 4:58:59 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By smitty_007:
The .pdf linked in the first thread is12 years old according to the last update... Question 1: Is it really okay to put a "range" or "less than" when it asks for the overall length? That seems like something the ATF would kick back, but I have no experience with this! Question 2: Can I just guess and use 29.5" for a 10.5" barrel with SOPMOD Bravo or CTR stock? I don't have everything to measure. Question 3: If I plan on running an 11.5" barrel from time-to-time, which barrel length and OAL should I list? 10.5 or 11.5? I'm buying the 10.5" first...then will be buying an 11.5" down the road. Thank you for any help on this! A1: no A2: yes A3: the one you're using to make the firearm...which is a one-time act. After that, doesn't matter how it's configured. |
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Posted: 4/25/2016 5:02:44 PM EDT
[#25]
Awesome, thank you BigWaylon! Off to finish up the e-form and get this moving.
Stupid question alert  : Is it actually legal to get a stamp for a stated 10.5" barrel and then use an 11.5"...or is it just that it's not a big deal and no agent would ever really come after you for it? Say, it gets used in a self defense situation and comes in to question and their looking at your stamp and it says 10.5 but you had an 11.5 on it at the time...
Thanks again! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigWaylon:
A1: no A2: yes A3: the one you're using to make the firearm...which is a one-time act. After that, doesn't matter how it's configured. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigWaylon:
Originally Posted By smitty_007:
The .pdf linked in the first thread is12 years old according to the last update... Question 1: Is it really okay to put a "range" or "less than" when it asks for the overall length? That seems like something the ATF would kick back, but I have no experience with this! Question 2: Can I just guess and use 29.5" for a 10.5" barrel with SOPMOD Bravo or CTR stock? I don't have everything to measure. Question 3: If I plan on running an 11.5" barrel from time-to-time, which barrel length and OAL should I list? 10.5 or 11.5? I'm buying the 10.5" first...then will be buying an 11.5" down the road. Thank you for any help on this! A1: no A2: yes A3: the one you're using to make the firearm...which is a one-time act. After that, doesn't matter how it's configured. |
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Posted: 4/25/2016 5:16:36 PM EDT
[#26]
It's actually legal. The specs are for the initial build only. The recommend you notify them of any permanent change. They can't require it because there's no regulation to back it up...but they have to ask because they're required to keep the registry as accurate as possible. Plus, there's not much you can do that's permanent on the AR platform.
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Posted: 4/25/2016 5:31:28 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigWaylon:
It's actually legal. The specs are for the initial build only. The recommend you notify them of any permanent change. They can't require it because there's no regulation to back it up...but they have to ask because they're required to keep the registry as accurate as possible. Plus, there's not much you can do that's permanent on the AR platform. Awesome, thank you again! I sent you an IM as well. |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 5/2/2016 8:04:09 AM EDT
[#28]
First time filling out SBR papers on my own.
Questions. - Is it still suggested to print the forms on both sides of one sheet of paper, or is one sided ok. - Do I need two Citizen Certificates or just one? - Who fills out question # 8 Thanks |
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Posted: 5/2/2016 8:44:26 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By my69camaro1:
First time filling out SBR papers on my own. Questions. 1. Is it still suggested to print the forms on both sides of one sheet of paper, or is one sided ok. 2. Do I need two Citizen Certificates or just one? 3. Who fills out question # 8 1. It's not just suggested...it's required. They'll send them back to you if you print one-sided. 2. Assuming you're using the current form, it's none. They added the questions to the bottom of page 2 to reduce paperwork. If you're using an older form, it's only one copy of the 5330.20. (The current form is the one with a third page for payment info) 3. Form 1? Sign 7 and print name in 8. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 5/2/2016 10:35:42 AM EDT
[#30]
I just found a mistake on my first form 1 submission. It was for a 9mm scorpion evo, but I accidentally selected inches instead of mm for the unit of measurement option. Should I cancel this form and resubmit, or leave it and expect an email/call from the atf for a correction?
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IN, USA
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Posted: 5/3/2016 7:42:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: my69camaro1]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigWaylon:
1. It's not just suggested...it's required. They'll send them back to you if you print one-sided. 2. Assuming you're using the current form, it's none. They added the questions to the bottom of page 2 to reduce paperwork. If you're using an older form, it's only one copy of the 5330.20. (The current form is the one with a third page for payment info) 3. Form 1? Sign 7 and print name in 8. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigWaylon:
Originally Posted By my69camaro1:
First time filling out SBR papers on my own. Questions. 1. Is it still suggested to print the forms on both sides of one sheet of paper, or is one sided ok. 2. Do I need two Citizen Certificates or just one? 3. Who fills out question # 8 1. It's not just suggested...it's required. They'll send them back to you if you print one-sided. 2. Assuming you're using the current form, it's none. They added the questions to the bottom of page 2 to reduce paperwork. If you're using an older form, it's only one copy of the 5330.20. (The current form is the one with a third page for payment info) 3. Form 1? Sign 7 and print name in 8. Thanks, I was looking at info listed here from 2004 talking about the Citizen sheet. Mixing me all up. Alright so all the questions pertaining to the rifle and myself are on one page front & back. Page two is simply "Method of Payment", one sided nothing on the back. X2 so that means I would be sending in four (4) pieces of paper plus two (2) fingerprint cards. Thanks Again |
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Posted: 5/3/2016 1:41:01 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By my69camaro1:
Thanks, I was looking at info listed here from 2004 talking about the Citizen sheet. Mixing me all up. Alright so all the questions pertaining to the rifle and myself are on one page front & back. Page two is simply "Method of Payment", one sided nothing on the back. X2 so that means I would be sending in four (4) pieces of paper plus two (2) fingerprint cards. Thanks Again The current F1 & F4 have the CoC. That change was sometime in the last two years. One copy of the payment page is enough...even if it was multiple forms being submitted. They don't send a copy back. Two copies won't hurt, just unnecessary. Same reason you can send a single check and a single set of fingerprint cards. |
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Posted: 5/9/2016 2:35:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: PabloMcGlock]
[#33]
All of my form 1 SBR's have been submitted using stripped lowers. Can I also form 1 my factory built lowers? Eg: I have a 16" KAC SR15 can I SBR it and swap back and forth between 11.5 & 16" uppers once approved?
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Posted: 5/9/2016 7:38:44 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dana1972:
All of my form 1 SBR's have been submitted using stripped lowers. Can I also form 1 my factory built lowers? Eg: I have a 16" KAC SR15 can I SBR it and swap back and forth between 11.5 & 16" uppers once approved? Yes. |
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Posted: 5/9/2016 11:54:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BigWaylon]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigWaylon:
Yes. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigWaylon:
Originally Posted By Dana1972:
All of my form 1 SBR's have been submitted using stripped lowers. Can I also form 1 my factory built lowers? Eg: I have a 16" KAC SR15 can I SBR it and swap back and forth between 11.5 & 16" uppers once approved? Yes. Thanks Big! |
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USA
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Posted: 5/25/2016 10:52:44 PM EDT
[#36]
I submited my efform with my trust two weeks ago. I came across a good deal on a 10.5 upper. Can I have the upper while waiting on the form to be approved? I purchased a stripped lower last year could this be used as a pistol build until I get approved? The lower I submitted is already on a carbine upper. Hate to miss the deal just not completely clear on the rules.
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Posted: 5/25/2016 11:05:02 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jayg0351:
I submited my efform with my trust two weeks ago. I came across a good deal on a 10.5 upper. Can I have the upper while waiting on the form to be approved? I purchased a stripped lower last year could this be used as a pistol build until I get approved? The lower I submitted is already on a carbine upper. Hate to miss the deal just not completely clear on the rules. You can definitely build an AR pistol with that upper while waiting. Or, buy the upper and just ship it to me. I'll take good care of it.
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MO, USA
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Posted: 6/5/2016 12:36:44 AM EDT
[#38]
Long time lurker here, finally building a SBR.
I set up a trust a few months ago, and was wondering at what point do I need to engrave my lower, and what all needs to be put on it. I plan on submitting my form electronically in the next week or so. |
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Posted: 6/5/2016 12:53:18 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jayz1881:
Long time lurker here, finally building a SBR. I set up a trust a few months ago, and was wondering at what point do I need to engrave my lower, and what all needs to be put on it. I plan on submitting my form electronically in the next week or so. Assuming you're talking a regular lower, as opposed to an 80% lower? If so: 1. Name of trust 2. City & state where you physically make the SBR 3. Caliber, only if it's not already marked on the frame, receiver or barrel. Only time this usually happens is if you're using a lower marked "multi" and the barrel isn't marked. It needs to be engraved when assembled. Doesn't matter if it's before you file, between filing and approval, or between approval and building. |
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Posted: 6/5/2016 12:55:29 AM EDT
[#40]
How is this process different if you want to SBR an 80% lower, or an AK built from a flat?
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Posted: 6/5/2016 7:17:04 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bassman2:
How is this process different if you want to SBR an 80% lower, or an AK built from a flat? You also have to create a serial number and engrave it, and if you designate a model name it must be engraved. With an existing (serialized) firearm, you have an original manufacturer to put on the form. With an 80%/flat, you don't...the individual or entity is the original. Other than that, it's basically the same. |
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Posted: 6/5/2016 10:57:56 PM EDT
[#42]
I submitted two Form 1's, one yesterday and one today.
When I was submitting today I noticed that on the one I submitted yesterday for the address instead of putting Oklahoma City, Ok I accidentally selected OKC, Ok is this going to be an issue? If so what do I need to do in order to get it corrected? |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 6/6/2016 1:59:15 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigWaylon:
Assuming you're talking a regular lower, as opposed to an 80% lower? If so: 1. Name of trust 2. City & state where you physically make the SBR 3. Caliber, only if it's not already marked on the frame, receiver or barrel. Only time this usually happens is if you're using a lower marked "multi" and the barrel isn't marked. It needs to be engraved when assembled. Doesn't matter if it's before you file, between filing and approval, or between approval and building. Thanks for clarifying. If the barrel is marked, but the lower says multi does the lower still need to be engraved? How many calibers can be marked on the lower? Not me personally, but Im sure there are guys out there using stamped lowers for 5.56 and 300BO. What if you want to use both? |
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Posted: 6/6/2016 9:59:46 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jayz1881:
Thanks for clarifying. If the barrel is marked, but the lower says multi does the lower still need to be engraved? How many calibers can be marked on the lower? Not me personally, but Im sure there are guys out there using stamped lowers for 5.56 and 300BO. What if you want to use both? The firearm needs to be marked when assembled. If the barrel is marked, no reason to engrave the lower with caliber. I don't know if there's a clear answer to your other question. Some say you only engrave the original caliber on the F1. Others say the firearm always needs to have the correct caliber on the firearm when it's assembled...which would be the case if the barrels were marked. I've never worried too much about it as I build complete ARs and have never swapped an upper. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 6/7/2016 10:10:08 PM EDT
[#45]
BigWaylon, thanks for your replies to everyone on here. i have gotten a lot of questions answered just reading your replies.
one i haven't seen is regarding the engraving if done as a trust. if the name of the trust is ABC revocable living trust, does that whole thing have to be on the receiver or is ABC Trust sufficient? |
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Posted: 6/7/2016 10:29:19 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fasttimes:
one i haven't seen is regarding the engraving if done as a trust. if the name of the trust is ABC revocable living trust, does that whole thing have to be on the receiver or is ABC Trust sufficient? It's supposed to be the complete trust name that matches the F1. It's why everyone recommends naming the trust something short. There's no reason to have revocable or living in the trust name...the body of the trust will define how it functions. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 6/7/2016 10:31:24 PM EDT
[#47]
gotcha. thanks. too late for that on mine, but its not a big deal. just wanted to make sure before i got anything engraved. thanks again.
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Posted: 6/8/2016 9:44:03 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By travis442: I submitted two Form 1's, one yesterday and one today. When I was submitting today I noticed that on the one I submitted yesterday for the address instead of putting Oklahoma City, Ok I accidentally selected OKC, Ok is this going to be an issue? If so what do I need to do in order to get it corrected? Just for future reference I got a reply from Gary who confirmed that OKC is an acceptable value for the city of Oklahoma City. |
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WV, USA
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Posted: 6/8/2016 10:48:57 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By travis442:
Just for future reference I got a reply from Gary who confirmed that OKC is an acceptable value for the city of Oklahoma City. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By travis442:
Originally Posted By travis442:
I submitted two Form 1's, one yesterday and one today. When I was submitting today I noticed that on the one I submitted yesterday for the address instead of putting Oklahoma City, Ok I accidentally selected OKC, Ok is this going to be an issue? If so what do I need to do in order to get it corrected? Just for future reference I got a reply from Gary who confirmed that OKC is an acceptable value for the city of Oklahoma City. IF this reply was sent via email, I would probably keep a copy of it close to the Stamp paperwork just to cover yourself. Seems like you never can be too careful. |
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Posted: 6/8/2016 10:58:24 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MrFrZZ: IF this reply was sent via email, I would probably keep a copy of it close to the Stamp paperwork just to cover yourself. Seems like you never can be too careful. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MrFrZZ: Originally Posted By travis442: Originally Posted By travis442: I submitted two Form 1's, one yesterday and one today. When I was submitting today I noticed that on the one I submitted yesterday for the address instead of putting Oklahoma City, Ok I accidentally selected OKC, Ok is this going to be an issue? If so what do I need to do in order to get it corrected? Just for future reference I got a reply from Gary who confirmed that OKC is an acceptable value for the city of Oklahoma City. IF this reply was sent via email, I would probably keep a copy of it close to the Stamp paperwork just to cover yourself. Seems like you never can be too careful. Makes sense to me, I'll print out the email and include it with the rest of the paperwork. |
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