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Monolithic
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Posted: 11/25/2012 4:33:22 PM
When I first discovered Desert Tactical Arms and their Hard Target Interdiction rifle, one of the first things I noticed was the available calibers: .50 BMG, .408 CheyTac, .416 Barrett, and .375 CheyTac. I knew a good amount about the first 3 but the .375 never really came up in my research. So I called DTA and asked them extensively about the (comparatively) little round. To my surprise, they said that their best performer was by far the .375 CT! They said their company president was getting sub-foot groups at 2600 (not a typo) yards. I was amazed, but was quickly skeptical about terminal performance on target. I didn't ask about this so I pose the question to anyone with knowledge of long-range interdiction, whether in hunting or military: would such a small-diameter round like the .375 be lethal at its maximum effective range? I know an Australian sniper just broke records with his 3,000-yard kill on a Taliban commander, so if the .50 BMG can reach out that far I'm positive a flat-trajectory, high-velocity cartridge could as well. But would it have enough kinetic energy to kill at ranges past a mile? 2 miles? At what point is it pointless to even attempt a shot like that unless you're shooting a serious big-bore? Is the .375 CT destined to be just a competition round, or does it have hunting/sniper potential?

http://www.deserttacticalarms.com/guns/dta-hti-sniper-rifle-chassis.html
D-RAS03
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Posted: 11/25/2012 5:17:25 PM
The 375 is lethal out to a mile if not farther. That and the 408 are more accurate than the 50bmg.
It only takes one shot.
m4hk33
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Posted: 11/25/2012 5:21:59 PM
[Last Edit: 11/25/2012 6:08:22 PM by m4hk33]
I don't know, but a 338lm has a confirmed kill at 2707 yards. And considering it falls between it and the 50, I'm sure it has some range
CrazyRayRay
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Posted: 11/25/2012 5:48:29 PM
Longest recorded sniper kills
Main article: Longest recorded sniper kills
The longest range recorded for a sniper kill currently stands at 2,475 m (2,707 yd) and was achieved by CoH Craig Harrison, a sniper from the Household Cavalry of the British Army. It was accomplished in an engagement in November 2009 in which two stationary Taliban machine gunners were killed south of Musa Qala in Helmand Province in Afghanistan with three consecutive shots by CoH Harrison using an Accuracy International L115A3 Long Range Rifle chambered in .338 Lapua Magnum.[24][25][26][27]
This is form Wikipedia.

No nation ever had an army large enough to guarantee it against attack in time of peace, or ensure it of victory in time of war.
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grendelbane
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Posted: 11/25/2012 6:08:07 PM
I must admit to being confused here. I would think the bullet from any cartridge would be potentially lethal at any range. If it is still in the air, it is moving fast enough to penetrate deep enough to kill.

In other words, if you can consistently hit it, you can kill it. If you accidentally hit it, at its maximum range, you can still kill it.

Bullets never slow down enough to just bounce off of humans. Most of the bullets you mentioned would be potentially lethal if just dropped from a high enough altitude.

Some ballistically wise soul could probably tell us approximately how fast the big bore bullets would be going at the ranges mentioned. They may slow down to slow handgun velocities, but even that is enough to kill.
AnarchyRd
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Posted: 11/25/2012 6:31:06 PM
[Last Edit: 11/25/2012 6:31:19 PM by AnarchyRd]
Originally Posted By grendelbane:

Bullets never slow down enough to just bounce off of humans.


Au contraire, mon frere. I have a scar on my left thumb from getting hit by a slow moving round. Split my skin down to the bone and left a 1.5cm lac that I repaired myself.

Most of the bullets you mentioned would be potentially lethal if just dropped from a high enough altitude.


Nope. Ironically, this is due to terminal velocity.

Some ballistically wise soul could probably tell us approximately how fast the big bore bullets would be going at the ranges mentioned. They may slow down to slow handgun velocities, but even that is enough to kill.


The magic number seems to hover around 600-700fps as the minimum to kill.

Combat_Jack
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Posted: 11/25/2012 6:35:51 PM
It's like getting hit with a .38.
Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again.-Bertold Brecht
grendelbane
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Posted: 11/25/2012 6:53:14 PM
Perhaps I phrased it poorly. Obviously, a bullet which comes to a complete rest is no longer moving fast enough to be potentially lethal. A bullet which ricochets may not be moving fast enough to be lethal. I once caught a ricocheting .45 in my hand, for instance.

Terminal velocity for typical .30 caliber rifle bullets is around 200 FPS. The bullets being discussed are heavier than that, probably have a higher ballistic co-efficient, and would indeed be potentially lethal if dropped from a high enough altitude. A lot depends upon the orientation of the bullet if and when it stabilized, of course.

Above 200 FPS would be where I would expect bullets to begin to be potentially lethal. Once again, depending on stability and orientation. 300 to 400 FPS should be plenty fast for bullets that weigh almost an ounce, to over 2 ounces. Remember, lead pellets flung from slings were lethal in ancient times. Their weight would have been in the same range as some of the big bores. I doubt that their impact velocity was ever any where close to 600 FPS.
D-RAS03
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Posted: 11/25/2012 7:06:40 PM
[Last Edit: 11/25/2012 7:11:29 PM by D-RAS03]
Here's a ruff chart I put together for the 375ct. Used this provided ammo specs.
At 3000yds it hits harder than a 45acp.

It only takes one shot.
OhioLongRange
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Posted: 11/25/2012 7:26:22 PM
but, CheyTac is a douchebag of a company who believes you shouldn't own the same gun they sell the .gov...
TheTacticalCoyote
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Posted: 11/25/2012 7:59:46 PM
Originally Posted By CrazyRayRay:
Longest recorded sniper kills
Main article: Longest recorded sniper kills
The longest range recorded for a sniper kill currently stands at 2,475 m (2,707 yd) and was achieved by CoH Craig Harrison, a sniper from the Household Cavalry of the British Army. It was accomplished in an engagement in November 2009 in which two stationary Taliban machine gunners were killed south of Musa Qala in Helmand Province in Afghanistan with three consecutive shots by CoH Harrison using an Accuracy International L115A3 Long Range Rifle chambered in .338 Lapua Magnum.[24][25][26][27]
This is form Wikipedia.



Link to the story on a 3079 yard sniper kill with a 50 BMG

LCpl. Nigel K. Olsen March 4th, 2010 Southern Helmand Province Afghanistan
LCpl. Carlos C. Aragon March 1st, 2010 Southern Helmand Province Afghanistan

Thanks Hoosier556shooter For The Membership!
Monolithic
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Posted: 11/25/2012 9:26:47 PM
[Last Edit: 11/25/2012 9:36:55 PM by Monolithic]


That's incredible!!! Thanks for sharing. Is it safe to say, then, that the .375 CT is the most capable anti-personnel cartridge out there for ultra-long range? That's what it says on paper.
D-RAS03
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Posted: 11/25/2012 9:44:27 PM
Originally Posted By Monolithic:


That's incredible!!! Thanks for sharing. Is it safe to say, then, that the .375 CT is the most capable anti-personnel cartridge out there for ultra-long range? That's what it says on paper.


I would take the 408ct over the 375ct but both would serve great. Anti-personal that is. Not sure on the ability against material like the 50bmg.
It only takes one shot.
Aubie1
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Posted: 11/25/2012 9:44:56 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but CT went out of business a couple of years ago. There are companies still offering CT chambering 408/375, but CT as a company did go under..unless they are back in business again.

The 375CT seems to be a lot more popular compared to the 408. If I ever get rid of my 338LM...I'm getting a 375CT.
D-RAS03
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Posted: 11/25/2012 9:47:54 PM
Originally Posted By Aubie1:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but CT went out of business a couple of years ago. There are companies still offering CT chambering 408/375, but CT as a company did go under..unless they are back in business again.

The 375CT seems to be a lot more popular compared to the 408. If I ever get rid of my 338LM...I'm getting a 375CT.


Looks like they are still in bussiness. http://www.cheytacrifles.com/
It only takes one shot.
PrivateContactor
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Posted: 11/25/2012 9:54:02 PM
Bear in mind there is a niche among hunters who shoot magnum air rifles, in 357, 458, and even 50, who kill game up to and including buffalo, with relatively low muzzle velocities. Personally, I prefer something with a little more margin of error, however, low velocity munitions have been used for ages, with at least some degree of lethality. Thing of the velocity of muzzle loading pistols, and understand modern lathe-turned projectiles penetrate much better. Although the physics are different, 400 fps is an exceptional velocity for archers............I know, "apples and oranges" and all that, however velocity is not always representative of lethality.

http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/

On the other end of the spectrum, my Terry Jacka whip exceeds the velocity of many rounds, however, unless I am able to get a crack in just right on the neck, or similarly shallow circulatory targets, it remains non-lethal, through supersonic usage.

PC
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Rob01
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Posted: 11/26/2012 9:42:23 AM
Originally Posted By D-RAS03:
Originally Posted By Aubie1:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but CT went out of business a couple of years ago. There are companies still offering CT chambering 408/375, but CT as a company did go under..unless they are back in business again.

The 375CT seems to be a lot more popular compared to the 408. If I ever get rid of my 338LM...I'm getting a 375CT.


Looks like they are still in bussiness. http://www.cheytacrifles.com/


Different business. The original was in Idaho. I knew the original guys who built and ran the shop and they were great guys. Management was not that good though.

Spent 4 days in Idaho a few years back shooting the 408s. This was when the 375 was just being developed so we didn't get to shoot them but the 408s were awesome. Hitting steel at 2500 yards with ease. If I had the money and space to use them they would be my choice for extreme long range.


L to R: 408 Chey Tac, 300WM, .308, 6.5 Creedmoor, 9mm, 22LR




http://www.teamblaster.net
300BR
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Posted: 11/26/2012 9:19:35 PM
I attended a shoot out in the eastern half of my state and one of the guys who helped put it on brought his 375CT. He goofed off a bit at 1900 yds. on steel with it, then swung around 90 deg. and pointed out a flat rock that he ranged at 2950 yds. He laid down and put three fast rounds in a group that was approximately 20" in gusting winds. The same guy was witnessed by multiple people to have shot a crow off a chimney of an abandoned shack at 3000 yds. There are a lot more stories but you get the point.

The issue with lethality at these ranges has nothing to do with speed and mass. If that bullet hits you, you most likely won't live to talk about it. The issue is hitting at those distances and it is indeed possible..... IF you have the range accurate within a couple feet and know what the wind is doing at all distances (and elevations...) OR you have the luxury of walking them in. As far as speed and mass, when we shot at just under 2300 yds. with my 300WM, we had a discussion similar to this about how much energy was left out there where they were hitting. I ran the numbers once back at home and at my AO, 208 Amax's from my rifle have about the same energy and speed at 2300 yds. as my 40 S&W has at muzzle. Pretty impressive.

John
silentbushmaster
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Posted: 11/26/2012 10:21:57 PM
For those that think slow heavy bullets are nothing to worry about, look at those killed by a 45ACP 230 grain ball at 900fps.
OiRogers
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Posted: 11/30/2012 4:54:30 PM
Wow.

My favorite hunting round is the .375H&H out of a Winchester Mod70.... That .375CT basically tacks another 1000fps on muzzle velocities.

Anyone have load data for the .375CT? Would be curious to see how it much more powder, and what types it takes to achieve such speeds.
I have a large quantity of .375 tips to load for my H&H... Wonder if I could convince the wife it was consolidation to sell my .50bmg and add a .375CT?
Make your mark, because in the end it's all that remains. - Templars
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458winmag
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Posted: 12/1/2012 1:12:59 AM
You are not confused
LNC2BLDR
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Posted: 12/1/2012 6:12:30 PM
Originally Posted By OiRogers:
Wow.

Anyone have load data for the .375CT? Would be curious to see how it much more powder, and what types it takes to achieve such speeds.
I have a large quantity of .375 tips to load for my H&H... Wonder if I could convince the wife it was consolidation to sell my .50bmg and add a .375CT?


The sweet spot for my rifle is 134gr of Retumo using 370gr RMB projectiles.
OiRogers
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Posted: 12/1/2012 10:15:30 PM
Originally Posted By LNC2BLDR:
Originally Posted By OiRogers:
Wow.

Anyone have load data for the .375CT? Would be curious to see how it much more powder, and what types it takes to achieve such speeds.
I have a large quantity of .375 tips to load for my H&H... Wonder if I could convince the wife it was consolidation to sell my .50bmg and add a .375CT?


The sweet spot for my rifle is 134gr of Retumo using 370gr RMB projectiles.


Thanks.... So loading the .375CT is more akin to the .50bmg than a standard Magnum round... Should have guessed with the velocities.

I push 2300 from my .375H&H with a 300gr pill with just a bit over 62gr of RL-15...
I tend to start my .50bmg loads with 125gr and work up or down as needed when pushing a 700-800gr pill.
Make your mark, because in the end it's all that remains. - Templars
It's better to be dead than f@&king red - Combat 84
LNC2BLDR
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Posted: 12/1/2012 10:40:43 PM
Originally Posted By OiRogers:

Thanks.... So loading the .375CT is more akin to the .50bmg than a standard Magnum round... Should have guessed with the velocities.

I push 2300 from my .375H&H with a 300gr pill with just a bit over 62gr of RL-15...
I tend to start my .50bmg loads with 125gr and work up or down as needed when pushing a 700-800gr pill.


I sold my 50 to fund my CT build. It's not exactly something I would want to hunt with at 55" and 22 lbs.
cchurchi
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Posted: 12/1/2012 11:36:54 PM
Photo?
LNC2BLDR
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Posted: 12/1/2012 11:48:58 PM
Hard to gauge it's size from the photo.


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