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 Kuryakyn
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Posted: 8/3/2012 6:34:21 PM
[Last Edit: 8/3/2012 6:58:29 PM by Kuryakyn]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT I usually only shoot at the 100 & 200 yard ranges at my club but once or twice a month they open the 600 yard range, I've never tried it but I would like to someday. The barrel is a 27" M24 and I can have it cut to any length under that, I was pretty set on 26" but I have no idea why. The current barrel on the rifle is 24". I do know I do not want 18 or 20 but 22 sound interesting. Are there really any reasons to build it at 26" for 600 yards? Is 22" more than enough? |
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Posted: 8/3/2012 6:47:17 PM
22-24" is a good length where you will get enough velocity but it won't be hard to handle. My .308 is 22" now and I have no problem getting the Hornady 178 BTHP to 2730fps with Varget.
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LoneWolfUSMC
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Posted: 8/3/2012 7:21:51 PM
Originally Posted By Kuryakyn:
Are there really any reasons to build it at 26" for 600 yards? Is 22" more than enough? 20" is more than enough for 600 yards, but for some reason you are against it. In fact I have shot my 20" AI at 1000. It's not optimal for 1000 yards, but neither is the .308. ;) |
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LoneWolfUSMC
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Posted: 8/3/2012 7:23:05 PM
Originally Posted By Rob01:
I have no problem getting the Hornady 178 BTHP to 2730fps with Varget. 2750fps is what I am pushing 178 BTHP's at from the 20" barrel. |
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BookHound
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Posted: 8/4/2012 8:21:22 AM
My .308 wears a Rock 1:11.27 twist 22" finish Sendero contour. I've shot to 1000 without problems. Now, most of the time I'm only pushing to 800. I am also running a suppressor. If I was setting up the rifle to frequently push to 1000 I would have gone longer; probably 26". I'm running 175s mostly.
Out to 600? The shorter barrel will be just fine. Mark |
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Glock63
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Posted: 8/6/2012 12:42:02 AM
I am a fan of 22 inch barrels. Short enough to not be cumbersome while wearing a suppressor, but still puts up decent velocity.
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Kuryakyn
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Posted: 8/6/2012 1:50:35 PM
Originally Posted By Glock63:
I am a fan of 22 inch barrels. Short enough to not be cumbersome while wearing a suppressor, but still puts up decent velocity. I decided on 22.5" just to be different. |
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nick1983
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Posted: 8/6/2012 5:20:47 PM
Originally Posted By Kuryakyn:
Originally Posted By Glock63:
I am a fan of 22 inch barrels. Short enough to not be cumbersome while wearing a suppressor, but still puts up decent velocity. I decided on 22.5" just to be different. More than enough. .308 has fully burned the powder down a 22in tube. The gains from 20in-22in are very minimal. |
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LoneWolfUSMC
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Posted: 8/6/2012 6:35:48 PM
Originally Posted By nick1983:
.308 has fully burned the powder down a 22in tube. Wondering how you came to this determination/generalization. |
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nick1983
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Posted: 8/7/2012 12:15:41 PM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 12:16:58 PM by nick1983]
Originally Posted By LoneWolfUSMC:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
.308 has fully burned the powder down a 22in tube. Wondering how you came to this determination/generalization. Chrono 18, 20, 24, 26 in barrels. Really not a lot to be gained in a .308 over a 20in barrel. It seems every other day the question comes up, "what barrel length to get 1000 with my .308?" The thing to do really is start re-loading and re-barrel to something of the 6mm, 6.5mm or 7mm flavour. No matter how long the barrel is, you can't polish the ballistic turd that is the .308. |
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LoneWolfUSMC
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Posted: 8/9/2012 9:51:02 AM
[Last Edit: 8/9/2012 9:52:12 AM by LoneWolfUSMC]
Originally Posted By nick1983:
Originally Posted By LoneWolfUSMC:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
.308 has fully burned the powder down a 22in tube. Wondering how you came to this determination/generalization. Chrono 18, 20, 24, 26 in barrels. Really not a lot to be gained in a .308 over a 20in barrel. Was this YOUR experiment or the often quoted article about barrel length? The reason I am picking on your statement is that while you may have a couple factory loads that it holds true for, once you step away from them it falls on it's face. Try your chrono experiment with a 3000 fps 155gr Palma load or a 208 Amax running 2600 fps. That Amax load has so much "crunch" that it almost pushes the bullet back out of the case. The muzzle blast is pretty interesting from a 20" barrel. So too is a factory 110gr TAP load. Most shooters will not notice a difference between a long and short .308. Some of us do. I have them in varying barrel lengths from 16" to 26" for different tasks. It's not because there is some magic length that does it all. |
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Posted: 8/9/2012 10:49:54 AM
21.75"
I run a 20" and it's a tack driver. "Through the years, the Houston Warehouse shooters were able to rate the relative accuracy of the various benchrest calibers — .22, 6mm and .30. In the perfect conditions of the warehouse, the .22’s outshot them all, followed closely by the 6mm’s. The .308 calibers were a not-too-distant third. The most accurate .30 caliber ever to find its way into the warehouse also belonged to Virgil. The rifle, built around a Shilen DGA action with McMillan barrel, shot consistently within a few thousandths of .100". The barrel length? You guessed it: 21 3/4". Secrets of the Houston Warehouse |
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LoneWolfUSMC
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Posted: 8/9/2012 11:08:11 AM
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
"Through the years, the Houston Warehouse shooters were able to rate the relative accuracy of the various benchrest calibers — .22, 6mm and .30. In the perfect conditions of the warehouse, the .22’s outshot them all, followed closely by the 6mm’s. The .308 calibers were a not-too-distant third. The most accurate .30 caliber ever to find its way into the warehouse also belonged to Virgil. The rifle, built around a Shilen DGA action with McMillan barrel, shot consistently within a few thousandths of .100". The barrel length? You guessed it: 21 3/4". You do realize that they are talking about benchrest rifles right? These are guys who get upset when they shoot a quarter inch group. They shoot four ounce triggers and barely touch the rifle. In fact the ammo they shoot can't even be magazine fed (even IF they were shooting repeaters, which they aren't). You may also take note that in that article they mention that they rarely shoot more than 200 yards. The three goals from longer barrels are more velocity, longer sight radius (with irons) and move volume to buffer variations in the powder charge. The last is really more applicable to rimfire, but may be of interest. A tactical rifle has more in common with a Palma rifle than with a benchrest rifle. Why don't you take a look at what the Palma champions are shooting. How many 20" (or 21 3/4") barrels do you see in Palma? |
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Posted: 8/9/2012 11:42:57 AM
It's funny how that article periodically makes it rounds like some kind of gospel.
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Posted: 8/9/2012 1:40:35 PM
I do realize how the testing was done. I don't think that article is the Holy Grail or anything but there is some good info in there and it's a good read if you haven't read it.I'm just saying that you aren't really going to loose that much running a 20-22" compared to a 26". The projectile stops 2 times before it exits the barrel. Most of that pressure is spent up in the first 20" after the second push. You might gain some velocity with the 26 but it's not huge. Both barrels will reach 1000 yards but beyond that you are pushing the limits of the .308, IMO. You might need a little more elevation in your scope with the 20" to reach 1000 but most quality scopes combined with a 20MOA rail will get you there. I'll put my 20 up against any 26 any day of the week.
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LoneWolfUSMC
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Posted: 8/9/2012 2:20:44 PM
[Last Edit: 8/9/2012 2:21:06 PM by LoneWolfUSMC]
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
You might need a little more elevation in your scope with the 20" to reach 1000 but most quality scopes combined with a 20MOA rail will get you there. I'll put my 20 up against any 26 any day of the week. If that were the case, then your .308 should have no problem against .243, .260, 6,5CM, etc. I mean it's just some extra elevation....right? However that argument is blind to the fact that we don't always know the EXACT range to the target. More velocity means a flatter curve and more leeway to actually strike the target. Second, more velocity gives the wind less time to act on a bullet that already struggles through the air. Spend any time shooting long range and you quickly find that WIND is what separates good shooters from champions. It's also what separates close range plinking rifles from long range target rifles. If you are happy with your 20" .308 then great. However it's foolish to marginalize the advantages of the longer barrel at longer ranges. Anytime you want to swing down here we can head out to the 850 "range". I will bring my 26" Remington stoked with 155gr Sierra Palmas at 3000 fps. You can bring your 20" with whatever you want. Which one do you think is going to perform better with the wind whipping through the hills and no groomed berms to tell you exactly what the target range is. |
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Posted: 8/9/2012 2:53:45 PM
[Last Edit: 8/9/2012 6:18:57 PM by Boomholzer]
A rule of thumb I found to be accurate is about 20fps/INCH when dealing in-between 20” and 26”.
.308 with 175SMK/178AMAX, common velocities 2530-2650fps: So given a loss of 120fps, the difference in elevation drop at 1kyrds is ~45” or almost 4ft. Plus an added foot of windage. |
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Posted: 8/9/2012 6:04:03 PM
John it would be great to shoot with you. However you are a sniper and I am not. Besides to make it a fair comparison the barrels would need the same twist rate and fire the same load.
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Kuryakyn
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Posted: 8/9/2012 6:12:01 PM
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
John it would be great to shoot with you. However you are a sniper and I am not. Besides to make it a fair comparison the barrels would need the same twist rate and fire the same load. You did say "I'll put my 20 up against any 26 any day of the week"  |
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LoneWolfUSMC
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Posted: 8/9/2012 7:16:47 PM
[Last Edit: 8/9/2012 7:18:12 PM by LoneWolfUSMC]
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
John it would be great to shoot with you. However you are a sniper and I am not. Besides to make it a fair comparison the barrels would need the same twist rate and fire the same load. Ah, but now you see the problem! You can come up with a load that will not allow the long barrel and advantage, but if all else is equal the short barrel will not shoot faster than the long barrel. The only advantages a short barrel will have over an equal profile long barrel are handling and possibly a minute accuracy difference that will be lost in the noise as soon as you step off the 100 yard line. I hear the arguments about handling and unless you are doing vehicle ops or urban work, it's bullshit. I have spent a long time dragging long rifles in every environment the world has to offer. The reality of the situation is that short rifles look cool and everyone wants to look cool. We do live in a free market economy. You get to buy what you want as long as it complies with state and federal laws. If you want a short barrel, get one. But you aren't going to convince those of us who truly know the .308 that a short barrel is better for long range shooting when we are not restricted to an "issued" load. I do realize the Army is now hunting for a short barreled Sniper/DM Rifle, so that is going to cause these discussions to multiply, but reality is reality and the numbers are there. You guys keep this up and you are going to make me sacrifice my 26" barrel in one inch increments at the altar of science. ALSO: Me being a Sniper really has nothing to do with anything. I know more than a hand full of civilians that can out shoot me any day of the week in formal competition. |
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Posted: 8/9/2012 8:25:19 PM
[Last Edit: 8/9/2012 8:38:31 PM by Boomholzer]
Originally Posted By LoneWolfUSMC:
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
John it would be great to shoot with you. However you are a sniper and I am not. Besides to make it a fair comparison the barrels would need the same twist rate and fire the same load. Ah, but now you see the problem! You can come up with a load that will not allow the long barrel and advantage, but if all else is equal the short barrel will not shoot faster than the long barrel. The only advantages a short barrel will have over an equal profile long barrel are handling and possibly a minute accuracy difference that will be lost in the noise as soon as you step off the 100 yard line. I hear the arguments about handling and unless you are doing vehicle ops or urban work, it's bullshit. I have spent a long time dragging long rifles in every environment the world has to offer. The reality of the situation is that short rifles look cool and everyone wants to look cool. We do live in a free market economy. You get to buy what you want as long as it complies with state and federal laws. If you want a short barrel, get one. But you aren't going to convince those of us who truly know the .308 that a short barrel is better for long range shooting when we are not restricted to an "issued" load. I do realize the Army is now hunting for a short barreled Sniper/DM Rifle, so that is going to cause these discussions to multiply, but reality is reality and the numbers are there. You guys keep this up and you are going to make me sacrifice my 26" barrel in one inch increments at the altar of science. ALSO: Me being a Sniper really has nothing to do with anything. I know more than a hand full of civilians that can out shoot me any day of the week in formal competition. You will need to decrease your barrel cuts to quarter inch increments so you can run on top of jim gilmore's magic barrel length. 
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Posted: 8/9/2012 8:26:57 PM
I am having my .308 re barreled with a Rock 1-11.25 and went with 21 3/4 " as the length. I was going to do 22" but read this and decided on the 21 3/4.
http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html |
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Posted: 8/9/2012 8:43:41 PM
[Last Edit: 8/9/2012 8:44:57 PM by Boomholzer]
Originally Posted By ny15:
I am having my .308 re barreled with a Rock 1-11.25 and went with 21 3/4 " as the length. I was going to do 22" but read this and decided on the 21 3/4. http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html Go nuts. Be careful on the length specification, be it from bolt face, bore, or rvcr face, lug.... And then there are those pesky crowns and muzzle brakes.. That could screw up the magic number. 
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nick1983
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Posted: 8/10/2012 8:01:01 AM
[Last Edit: 8/10/2012 8:06:43 AM by nick1983]
Originally Posted By LoneWolfUSMC:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
Originally Posted By LoneWolfUSMC:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
.308 has fully burned the powder down a 22in tube. Wondering how you came to this determination/generalization. Chrono 18, 20, 24, 26 in barrels. Really not a lot to be gained in a .308 over a 20in barrel. Was this YOUR experiment or the often quoted article about barrel length? The reason I am picking on your statement is that while you may have a couple factory loads that it holds true for, once you step away from them it falls on it's face. Try your chrono experiment with a 3000 fps 155gr Palma load or a 208 Amax running 2600 fps. That Amax load has so much "crunch" that it almost pushes the bullet back out of the case. The muzzle blast is pretty interesting from a 20" barrel. So too is a factory 110gr TAP load. Most shooters will not notice a difference between a long and short .308. Some of us do. I have them in varying barrel lengths from 16" to 26" for different tasks. It's not because there is some magic length that does it all. This was my own expiriment with my chronograph. I read the constant bullshit on this subject on the intenet and in magazines for years. The load I tested was 168gr. FGMM. As you know the box states 2650fps MV, which was most likely from a 24 or 26in barrel. It chrono'd at 2520 from the 18in barrel. Edit: For the record I am big proponent of longer barrels, just not for the .308. |
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Posted: 8/10/2012 8:25:39 AM
Originally Posted By Boomholzer:
Originally Posted By ny15:
I am having my .308 re barreled with a Rock 1-11.25 and went with 21 3/4 " as the length. I was going to do 22" but read this and decided on the 21 3/4. http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html Go nuts. Be careful on the length specification, be it from bolt face, bore, or rvcr face, lug.... And then there are those pesky crowns and muzzle brakes.. That could screw up the magic number.
my next custom build will have a telescoping barrel..... |
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:43:31 AM
Originally Posted By LoneWolfUSMC:
You guys keep this up and you are going to make me sacrifice my 26" barrel in one inch increments at the altar of science. Well, I'll be on the look out for a cheap one to send to you. I realize you will get a small amount of velocity/energy from the longer barrel I just don't think it matters that much at 1000 and in with a .308. If I knew I was going to be shooting at 1K and beyond I would choose a different caliber. I choose .308 for my first custom build because of it's availability. Plus I'm just starting to reload and thought the .308 would be a good choice to start with. I also believe everyone should own a rifle in .308, 5.56/.223 and .22LR. A shotgun in 12GA. and handguns in 9mm ,.45ACP and .38/.357. My next rifle will probably be a 300 win mag or .338LM. I'm not trying to start an argument with you since I respect your insight very much on here and SH. I also look forward to Mondays since your videos are very well done and fill with good information. |
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