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Link Posted: 8/3/2016 11:47:02 AM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 8/3/2016 1:45:44 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 8/3/2016 2:01:18 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I recommend not using "PH" in conjunction with 4140 or other carbon steels as it has a specific meaning in metallurgy.  

PH means precipitation hardening.  Not "pre hardened".



View Quote

Yeah, yeah. And I suppose you think this --> .1   is a tenth, too.

We all know it's "HT". But everyone calls it pre heat treated.
Link Posted: 8/3/2016 6:28:30 PM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 8/3/2016 6:56:44 PM EDT
[#5]


I finished boring the barrel shank. I bored it to exactly 1.002" or so. I'm waiting for the tap to arrive. Will worry about what's behind that later on. I will need to find some way to lap or level the shoulder in the receiver, any suggestions?

I will post a pic of the EDM blank as soon as it arrives. I can do the same to the EDM blank as well.
Link Posted: 8/3/2016 7:51:46 PM EDT
[#6]
I think I would wait until the inner bore was all there and make something that rides in there. Then you would be fairly sure everything lines up.
Link Posted: 8/4/2016 7:31:06 AM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 8/4/2016 8:42:46 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That's a thousand tenths, and even the machinists I've been around don't talk that way!

What I really like are advertisements for "1000 millionths accuracy", or some such nonsense.

On the heat treating, I'm referring to writing the condition as 4140 PH, instead of 4140 HT (HT to what?!).  PH13-8M0 is a proper use of "PH", and it's even part of the alloys name in this case.

Something interesting I ran across this spring was whining about heat treat of carbon steel splines and gears with the usual process, and a guarantee of mechanical properties over a 20 ksi span.  I don't know if the guy ever got it, maybe they plan to reject every part that didn't harden to the upper end of the range for the heat treat condition specified.

View Quote

Every toolmaker in every shop I've ever been in, when they said a "tenth" they meant a "tenth of a thousandth" aka one ten thousandth of an inch.

The old joke is "Have you ever worked in tenths?" but the "tenths" is slurred in to "tents".

The pat answer is "Well, I've worked in a couple alley shops before but never in a tent".

It's funny, when I first started the trade, my aunt worked at Fischer Body as a die grinder. I mentioned that I was holding tenths on the grinder that day. She said she holds tenths every day and it's no big deal. Measures with a scale. I said, "No, tenths of a thousandth. .0001".

"Oh".

I've worked with 17 and 15- 4- PH quite a bit in the aerospace field.

Spec on 4140 HT is 28-32 Rc C scale.
There are other pre hardened steels. NAK 50 is about 40 Rc and is an extremely good (Japanese iirc) steel. Very stress free and great for emergency jobs where there's no time for HT.
Link Posted: 8/4/2016 12:30:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 8/4/2016 1:18:24 PM EDT
[#10]
I think we may be talking past one another.

Yes, you can take 4140 ann and heat treat it to any Rc you wish up to about 55. If you want harder, you can nitride it in one of several different ways or carburize and harden (which I've never heard of being done with that material).

But, there's a specific material called 4140 pre-heat treat. Designated 4140 HT and industry standard Rc is 28-32.

OP said he had a bar of 4140HT and then said it checked 40 Rc. That is out of spec for that material designation.

I don't know where he got the material. It's possible someone mistakenly sold him some NAK50 or similar.
Link Posted: 8/4/2016 2:34:02 PM EDT
[#11]
I don't know if it is truly 4140 pre hard but the eBay description says it was turned and ground to 1.5 inch, it has been hardness tested to 40rc, and he said it was used as some kind of a pin or something. Whatever it was it is heavy, strong, and hard to machine enough that I believe what it says. Standard pre hard is probably around 28-32 rc but it is clear whatever this is has been heat treated further. It could very well be stainless given how it would not rust much at all
Link Posted: 8/4/2016 4:10:00 PM EDT
[#12]


I just got the blank from Gary. I can fit a small ring mauser bolt inside the raceway (I won't be using that of course). On request I also asked for the "reaction rod" that the EDM inevitably leaves as it does the work... he said it makes a good action wrench.
Link Posted: 8/4/2016 9:25:42 PM EDT
[#13]


To address the problem with indexing, but also to give me a good way to clamp this thing while I'm working on it, I milled a flat on all 4 sides. It's a very small flat and I can remove them if I want to (the bar stock is much bigger than the receiver).
Link Posted: 8/11/2016 8:04:01 PM EDT
[#14]


Now I mill the back of the receiver to create the tang (the object here is to reduce the amount of metal that I have to bore and "broach")

One thing I have discovered: for operation like this a 1 inch HSS end mill I got for free at my university's machine shop worked great. The large HSS end mill has better ventilation so it won't heat up the metal as much, and the few time I dulled the cutter (work hardening or whatever) I just took the end mill to a bench grinder and sharpened it and kept cutting. End mill this big is easy to sharpen with a bench grinder, and the fact that I got it for free is even better.

The reason they threw this end mill in a scrap bin is because it basically broke... but there was enough shank that I can still grip it with an ER collet. This 4140 is very hard to cut and I basically chipped my carbide end mill trying (I do not know if it's due to thermal shock or whatever) Simple HSS tools such as boring bar and large end mill is actually better because the worst I can do is dull them, at which time I can just go and sharpen it with a grinder and keep on cutting.
Link Posted: 8/13/2016 1:39:22 AM EDT
[#15]


Moving on... I just got the tap from China... it was really cheap for what it is (a giant stinkin tap). I was able to start it, using the mill for alignment and once it got a couple of turn in, it basically aligns itself. I have test fitted a barrel onto it and it is spot on, however the problem is I need a much longer wrench to turn this giant stinkin tap against hardened steel. I will need to go to Walmart and buy a big wrench to finish this operation.

By the way as for the guy who earlier talked about having a friend EDM the raceway: Gary essentially told me that the blank he sold me used about 3000 meters of wire, so that's at least 30 dollars in wires alone. Then he said it took about 8 hours to actually cut the blank, so factoring in the cost of electricity, the wire, the guy's labor (watching the machine for 8+ hours to cut that thing) really does put into perspective how expensive it gets. Perhaps if steps were taken to reduce the amount of EDM time, such as bore a .700" hole down the middle, machine the 1" hole in the front, and then machine out the tang area, this could cut down the amount of time and wire used for the EDM process but I suspect it will still be expensive.

I'm just wondering if anyone could actually make a 80% (you know machine out the rails, etc. and send it to the ATF for a determination letter). The only problem I see is it will most likely not be something that a person can complete with only a drill press. At minimum I think the front portion and the threads inside the receiver ring can't be done, and holes would have to be drilled... If someone could figure out how to make a 80% that requires some milling, precision drilling, etc. then he could make a lot of money...
Link Posted: 8/13/2016 7:56:03 AM EDT
[#16]
You have your mill in a carpeted bedroom?
Link Posted: 8/13/2016 10:58:29 AM EDT
[#17]
It's the only room I have at the moment, so I have little choice.
Link Posted: 8/13/2016 12:05:13 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 8/13/2016 4:51:20 PM EDT
[#19]
Besides, it's actually the one activity I can do. I was mostly interested in guitar building and woodworking in general but metalworking is much more easily done in the apartment, because metal doesn't create fine dusts that stay in the air for days, coating everything in the room, and in several adjacent rooms with a fine coating of dust, nor does it clog ventilation ducts with dust. Milling is also a lot quieter than cutting wood with a router, if done correctly. The metal shaving mostly stays in my room and they are easily vacuumed up or brushed off. Wood particle gets on everything, including inside your lungs and coats the entire room in dust.

Even milling wood with a mill is not all that good because the wood dust gets everywhere, and I can't use coolants to stop the dust from going everywhere (whereas on metal this is easily done).
Link Posted: 8/14/2016 1:36:21 AM EDT
[#20]




I finally got the "receiver" threaded. A barrel is fitted to make sure it fits. I did not thread all the way because there's a recoil lug that goes between the receiver and the barrel.

It's crude but it works so far.
Link Posted: 8/25/2016 1:35:26 AM EDT
[#21]


More progress. The bar stock is trimmed to length and the tang almost cut. After the tang is cut I also cut the rail in that part of the receiver, This will serve as a guide as I bore the hole, and mill the rail from the back in. Hole for the stock mount is also drilled.
Link Posted: 8/25/2016 11:09:46 PM EDT
[#22]


DAYLIGHT!!

It was not easy boring holes through a round bar like this, but I realized the reason HSS drill bit had so much trouble drilling this is because this metal dulls drill bits or cutting tools very easily, even carbide tools were getting dulled. So as a brand new drill bit drills a bit, it dulls the bit and as it does that, it stops cutting leading to difficulty. I just used plenty of cooling fluids and sharpening the drill bit regularly and I was able to drill through the entire thing without much effort. I drilled it in from either end and while there are some misalignment, it will be corrected later on.
Link Posted: 9/5/2016 5:07:12 PM EDT
[#23]


More update: Receiver bored to size. It's not pretty since I don't have a .702" chucking reamer (nobody makes that it seems) but I finished with a 11/16" drill bit left over from my 80% 10/22 project. Exact same size and it would at least give me a bolt riding surface. Next step will be to cut out the ejection port and the inside portion of the bolt rail. With that guide I can then take a series of plunge cut with an end mill to form the raceway and make a useable receiver.
Link Posted: 9/5/2016 9:13:29 PM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 9/5/2016 10:09:02 PM EDT
[#25]
You're doing a great service to folks showing them this can be done in an apartment.  Thank you.
Link Posted: 9/6/2016 2:42:42 AM EDT
[#26]
If it won't fit, I can enlarge it very slightly with a boring head.
Link Posted: 9/8/2016 10:22:33 AM EDT
[#27]
Link Posted: 9/8/2016 7:19:29 PM EDT
[#28]
When you said rail gun I thought you meant that thing that uses electricity to shoot projectiles at hypersonic velocities
Link Posted: 9/14/2016 11:17:42 PM EDT
[#29]




More progress, I started machining the ejection port and the bolt raceway. I will use a ball end mill to round the bottom.
Link Posted: 9/17/2016 2:32:26 AM EDT
[#30]




I roughed out the ejection port. Rather than turn a huge chunk of steel into shavings I drilled a bunch of holes, and then whacked it with a hammer and the piece fell right off. I will then go back and clean it up with an end mill... saves a lot of wear and tear on end mills.
Link Posted: 9/20/2016 10:54:33 PM EDT
[#31]


Ejection port machining finished. Next operation will be to stand the receiver up to broach both ends. This is probably going to be the hardest part for me and will require some patience.
Link Posted: 9/22/2016 8:45:39 PM EDT
[#32]


I cut the bolt raceway. I have ordered a 3/8" broach and will use it to try to square up the corner.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 10:28:11 AM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
<a href="http://s107.photobucket.com/user/rahimiiii/media/001_zpsppfyiu5q.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/rahimiiii/001_zpsppfyiu5q.jpg</a>

I cut the bolt raceway. I have ordered a 3/8" broach and will use it to try to square up the corner.
View Quote


A large clearance and force press and a lot of shimming.
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 1:25:42 AM EDT
[#34]
I'm likely to use the broach as some kind of a saw to just shave off a tiny amount of metal around the corners... not a lot of metal will be removed so the amount of force needed is minimal. It's just a step above using a file that's all.
Link Posted: 9/29/2016 8:02:28 PM EDT
[#35]


I used a combination of smaller end mills, a file, and a LOT of elbow grease to get to this point. I need to file it some more to get it through the receiver bridge.

turns out the broach is way too big to fit in the tiny receiver. It consists of a broach about 3/8" wide attached to a block of steel at least 5/8" thick and about 1" deep. I'm going to set it aside for now because that broach may come in handy later... but I will need to grind it down before I can use it as it is.
Link Posted: 9/29/2016 8:39:07 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm likely to use the broach as some kind of a saw to just shave off a tiny amount of metal around the corners... not a lot of metal will be removed so the amount of force needed is minimal. It's just a step above using a file that's all.
View Quote


Good luck not having a lot of taper.

I did find an old broach from work in my shop.

It was designed to make a channel about 1/2 inch wide and 3/8 deep.

We used them to allow length adjustment on some equipment at a very high altitude for antanna pointing.

It is abut 48 inches long.

A couple passes with different collars to control it in the bore.

They lasted about four sharpenings so this one is a little worn.

The press was all of two stories high.

Link Posted: 10/10/2016 3:46:06 AM EDT
[#37]
This is the result of a LOT of elbow grease:



I don't have a two story tall press, 6 foot long broach, etc. but I have a lot of patience. It's not benchrest fit, and there are looseness in there but I will refine the head end because that's where it matters the most anyways. If Khyber Pass could make firearms from scratch with just files...

I need to enlarge the bore a little bit because it's a really tight fit and will not go all the way. The fit at the head end is the most critical.
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