I have an approved Form 1 for a suppressor build.  I originally intended to drill 60 degree cones with a drill press until I looked into the issue.  I then decided to buy a better drill press until I found out I was gaining little to nothing over a cheap drill press, power yes, precision no.

I am now looking at mini mills and small lathes. I have no interest in scouring craigslist for a Bridgeport Mill or South Bend lathe, I do not have the room, the moving capability, or the expertise to  judge what I am buying used.

I do not want this to be a once and done project, I am thinking I could do some other work in the future, maybe 80% for personal use, and other home projects.  I have been reading a lot and I have learned a lot about the limitations of these machines.

So for a precision drill, lathe or mill?

After the Form 1 project is done and I have a leftover machine, will a mill or drill will offer me the most future use, I assume mill.

Items considering;

MicroLux 7x16 Mini Lathe

3990 HiTorque Mini Mill, Solid Column with Air Spring

Thanks for any input.

CNC machine..

A sweet spot price and capability wise are the Grizzly 10x22 lathe and the G0704 mill.  Check them out and compare what you are looking at against them.  They use a lot of the tooling you will use in more capable machines, so you aren't buying stuff you may obsolete if you move into bigger machines.  There is a LOT of info about upgrades on these machines out there.  

I have not used one, but you may be disappointed in a tiny machine like a 7x16.  There is amazing work done on these small machines, but this does not imply high precision or capabilities from them.

I love capability - I liked  my old 9x42 Bridgeport and love my 11x36 lathe, but they are too heavy to easily move several thousand miles.

Precision Mathews sells better machines than "Green junk", at a better price, with better customer service.



I have a PM727 w/ 3 axis DRO, it cost $3k plus another $3k for quality tooling.  After a few days of setup and tuning it cuts within 0.0005"



A Mill, when coupled with a good rotary table can do almost anything!

I appreciate all the comments and welcome more input.

I have read Grizzly is basically green painted Sieg machinery, not necessarily bad but certainly you need to know what you are buying.

I have heard good things about Precision Mathews, will also look into that.

I don't have my head wrapped around any kind of CNC setup. I have ran large lathes and similar metal working machinery but only in High School shop early 1970's.

I'd agree with the others - for example, the size of the work envelope of the 3990 HiTorque Mini Mill will be pretty limiting.

I do have an X2 mini mill and a 7 x 12 mini lathe (that I am converting to a 7 x 14 CNC lathe), and it's fine for small stuff, but I also have a larger PM mill and have bought but not yet set up a Grizzly 12x36 lathe.

A lot of the tooling expense will be similar or even the same for smaller machines and for mid-sized machines, so why not go with the mid-size?

I have  Grizzly tools
A 5003 Gunsmith lathe, and a vertical mill, whose model number I can't remember right now.
They are giving good service and are heads and shoulders more useful than the Smithy machine they replaced.
They are holding less than .001 which has been good enough for threading and other gun fabrication.
I am NOT a machinist by trade, and if I was doing this for a living, I'd have starved to death by now.
Still, I'm very satisfied with my Grizzly tools

The Chi-com companies will build a machine to any price point you are willing to spend.  That said PM requires a better level of quality and it does cost more. I have the Grizzly G0602 10x22 lathe and while it is better than most other smaller machines it has design defects Grizzly has failed to address in this model. Right now the best buy is the PM1127VF-LB Lathe

I also have a Grizzly G4003G gunsmithing lathe and the bigger bore, rear spider and NSK bearing do make it a superior machine to the normal G4003 or G4002. Even this machine has design defects in the steady rest and tailstock, But I bought it as an open box sale and got it for a very good price.

The little machine shop machine that you named in your post is a wonderful machine, I have one. was debating between it and the 704, and am glad i got the LMS machine, with its upgrades.

I have made almost a dozen Form 1 suppressors on a 1950's Atlas 618. That's a 6"x18" machine with a spindle bore of 17/32". My longest build was 17-1/8"L.
I've never had alignment, fitment, or runout issues w/ any of the things I've made.
I'm installing a slightly larger machine, but only because it was a gift and I'm ready to move up.
Whatever size machine you go with, you need to learn its limitations and work within them.

Plenty of older American machines are for sale, at a variety of places. Not that I have anything against something new, but these things have proven themselves and stuck around.
Any older machine, to which there is a forum dedicated to, will most likely fit your needs.
South Bend, Clausing, Rockwell and Logan are just a few names with quality equipment.

As far as the below, I find these statements to be inaccurate.
I thread at over 200rpm (granted I learned at 55rpm) and my work rarely ever fits through the bore. This is why live centers and steady rests were created.
A set of half nuts will most likely be found on the smaller machines.
I've never once spun the spindle, by hand, to thread anything. Yes, I know people do it, but why not just take shallower cuts?

I still read this thread so thanks for any input.

I have not purchased anything yet, I took a step back to ponder my forward course of action. The used market in my area seems to be rusted out junk for multi thousands of dollars. I have read a number of good comments on the Precision Matthews products. There is a used Grizzly lathe, a larger one used but brand new, bought, delivered, he never got it up and running, that I am eyeing on CL, it is only a few hundred off new so it is just in the considering stage.

That's exactly how things are in my area. You have to be very vigilant, very patient, and be willing to put in some work when the time comes. I was able to snag my South Bend for WAYYY less than they typically go for in my area but I had to drive two hours to get it and put in work to clean it, paint it, replace a few little parts here and there (all fairly cheap). But in the end I have a good lathe with tons of parts support.

Before:


After:

The SB cleaned up pretty good , is it a 9 or 10 ??

there is some nice machines still out there  , just have to find the machines .

mine is a 1974 SB13 this is a 2 owner machine , in 42 yrs only to operators

I was looking at the Grizzly 10x22 lathe, as well as the equivalent Precision Matthews offering. I'm not sure but it's definitely over 500 dollars over budget, and the Grizzly 10x22 lathe is already over budget (I only was thinking about this one because the G4000 is inadequate). I think the question is, would a Grizzly machine be good enough (remember, perfection is the enemy of good enough). I'm not sure I'd need to do a belt drive conversion and a DRO upgrade on a lathe anyways since it's already belt driven, and I don't generally make complex shapes on lathes or have hole patterns that are tolerance critical.

A used US made machine is hit or miss. If you can find it in your area, have a pickup truck to get it (I don't), and get it up to a third floor apartment, it may be a better machine but you will probably spend over the cost of a new Chicom machine just to get it up and running. A superior machine, sure, but having gotten a Powermatic 1150 drill press before (a different machine, I know, but just as a comparison for new chicom machine vs. old American machine) I think I would have been happier with a larger Chicom machine rather than an old American machine that needs a ton of cleanup (not to mention stuff like phase converter, and regrind the ways) to even get it running. I came to the same conclusion regarding old bridgeports.

Regarding LMS vs. G0704, go with G0704. Why? G0704 is a heavier machine with larger work envelope (nothing LMS offers even approaches the work envelope of a G0704, but rather are upgrades for the X2 type mill, G0704 is a different class of machine altogether). The machine has plenty of support and with a few select but inexpensive mod can have extreme amount of work envelope. I got my max spindle to table height to 18 inches (which is HUGE) just by removing the Z axis saddle and putting them in backwards, costs nothing but time to do. I installed a belt drive conversion, but right now it sucks because it's stuck to a single speed range, which is very high. No problem when drilling aluminum or even milling steel but if you drill alloy steel at the high range the motor stalls, and the steel work hardens. So whatever you do, do NOT buy the Home Machine Shop (in NZ) belt drive conversion unless you only intend to machine aluminum with CNC conversion. Benchtop Precision offers two speed range, which gives you a good torque when needed. I should mention a belt drive conversion makes the machine MUCH quieter, and you don't have to worry about broken plastic gears that will put your machine out of action for months (since that gear is never in stock)

I also have the Grizzly G0602 10x22 lathe.  This machine has serious design flaws in the compound clamp design. For me it was just a hemroid that I could fix since at the time I got it I had access to a full CNC machine shop.

Not everyone wants to spend a weekends worth of time with a surface grinder making the compound flat and parallel planer and modifying the cross slide to accept a six bolt clamp vrs the OEM wimpy 2 nut version. Then you need to make a replacement clamp plate.

I won't begin to rant about the crack head designed tailstock.

True it is better than a 7x or 9x machine, but it really wasn't ready for prime time.  Grizzly ( in my opinion ) had to know this, but since for a long time there were no other competitors in the 10x size/price class there was no incentive to improve the product that would cut into profits.

Are there any Grizzly lathe without flaws? Also are the flaws so bad that it is a dealbreaker? Has Precision Matthews' machine addressed those flaws, because honestly it's not worth the extra 500 dollars plus freight if it's something that can be easily addressed.

Good quality machines are out there.  You might put some feelers out with local machine shops and used machine dealers and see if they have any leads.  Word of mouth seems to be big when it comes to scoring a good deal.





A bit bigger than you need, but my brother just picked up a Mazak 30"x120" Rex.  It has a 20hp motor with 4.25" thru bore and will swing 40" in the gap!






This machine came out of New York and was shipped to the St. Louis area.  Sometimes it is worth it to broaden the geographical area to find the right deal.






 

Not everyone's got an abandoned warehouse to put this stuff in. I read bigger machines are actually a better deal because few people can deal with it. Not only this isn't going to fit on the third floor of an apartment, there isn't going to be any power to run them either unless you have a 10kw generator outside that generates 3 phase power.

I also bought the G4003G 12x36 Gunsmithing edition lathe - and its a very good lathe. They have an alternate version now the G0750 and it should run even quieter since its quick change gear box is a closed oil bath type where my G4003G is an oil drip lube open bottom gearbox. The G4003G is supposed to be the "Super" version of the G4003 with a heavy duty D1-5 spindle fitted with NSK bearings. The G4003G also has the 4 rear spider bolt holes drilled and taped into the spindle. What they don't tell you is that they deleted the inside threads where the spider is so the 5C collet closer (special order accessory) will not fit. The G4003 and G4002 (12x24 short bed) are fitted with noname chicom bearings YMMV and may self destruct if your gearbox is full of sand and cast iron boring chips. I flushed mine out with diesel before I wired it up and did the spindle break in. I used 8 gallons and got about 1/4 cups worth of sand and metal chips.

What drives me up the wall in a screaming rant is the tailstocks as provided on virtually any Chicom lathe. My G4003G has 4 inches of tailstock quill travel. Here is the rub. If you use a standard MT3 shanked drill chuck with the drive tang your quill has to be out 1.5" just to seat the taper. Now assuming your drill is touching the work when you start you can feed in 2.5" before the quill is over extended and has come off the end of the feed screw. So if you do leave a gap for chip clearing and don't want to run off the screw your effectively limited to about 2 inch depth. To me I'm only getting 50% useable travel of a spec'ed 4 Inch travel quill.

Now in the 7X lathe crowd everyone seems to be fine with chopping off the rear half of the MT3 shanks, and indeed you will never have to worry about the drive tang spinning in the quill taper since any tool which might need the drive tang would stall the spindle dead in its tracks.

Now I do use full size MT2 and MT3 shank drills up through 1" dia. and I have several up towards 1 1/4". You never want a drill to spin in the quill MT socket as it will ruin the ground taper and make precision turning between centers nearly impossible. That is the whole reason MT shanks have the drive tang.

At some future date I will tear the G4003G down and pull the spindle. I will use one of my CNC mills to threadmill the hardened spindle to accept the collet closer.

But back on topic - I can mount a 5" dia material take my first cut, measure, and continue making cuts based on the machine dials (no DRO as yet) an when I get down to cut the finish pass I'm right within .0015" of target, usually due to lots of heat from turning off a few inches worth.  I can hold .0003" with this machine without effort so in that respect it is a great machine.

I bought mine cheap - open box used on Craig's list. A guy was setting up his dream retirement workshop - had ordered and opened up the crate but before he got any farther found out he had Pancreatic cancer. He went from building his shop to liquidating it - he wanted to be all empty storage space before he died so his wife would not have to deal with strangers showing up to pick over the remains. I gave him his full asking price without question, it was a real good deal and this is one way I hated to get such a bargain.

If you're regulated to a third floor apartment then yeah, you're stuck with mini-lathe. However, the only person that's mentioned anything about a third floor apartment has been you, so I'm not sure if it applies to the OP (he hasn't specified as to his space limits). While not everyone has room for 100+ foot lathe (I sure as hell don't) people who haven't really messed with machinery don't realize how little space many of these machines take up. We have a two car garage with one side of it that belongs to me. In that space I have the lathe that I posted earlier, an Excello Mill (slightly bigger than a Bridgeport), a full size sandblast cabinet, a 60 gallon air compressor, a floor drill press, two 8 foot work benches, a 2-ton cherry picker, a rolling tool chest, and a series of shelves for chemicals and such. I'm even getting ready to throw in a surface grinder that I'm going to pick up in a few weeks. Also, I run those machines using their original 3-phase motors on my house power with VFD's, no phase converters, no generators, etc. Don't have a truck to pick it up (I don't)? Rent one like I did. The same company also rented out a nice drop deck trailer which made loading a 3,000 pound machine by myself a lot easier.

TL:DR version: It's entirely possible to get a good deal on a older machine and take delivery of it without having to move the Earth in order to do it.

ETA: I should clarify that I have no problem with Grizzly, and when the time comes for me to upgrade from my smaller lathe I'm going to give them a serious look as I really dig their gunsmith series. So I don't want anyone thinking I'm an import hater like the guys over on Practical Machinist. It's just that in the price range that it would cost to get a small Grizzly you could get a much better built lathe for the same or less.

Smaller machines have there place - The number of upper floor and apartment shops in the UK would surprise you.

I live out in the country on a 40 acre horse ranch. I don't have a 3 phase option from the local power utility. On 1 CNC mill I am converting to run on 220V VFD's (will require 3, 1 for spindle, and 2  1/4hp units, 1 for coolant pump and one for an auxiliary motor.) My other CNC mill is more than I care to get into electronically so it is feed from a 10HP CNC rated rotary phase converter which requires a 60A 220V breaker.

I did just have my main service transformer upgraded by 250% and I'm not sharing it with anyone else. This because I will be installing a Phase Perfect Digital Phase converter which will require a 120A 220V line as the PP unit will draw 112A at full rated load. The PP unit will then replace the rotary phase converter and be shared between 1 CNC mill and my Hitachi Seiki HT-20 turning center.

The Grizzly machine tools I own were all single phase as shipped. The G0602 10x22 is 115V and the G4003G is 220V. Both have a common problem of any AC 1phase motor, you can't reverse rotation while the motor is running. This affects any brand lathe with a single phase configuration which does not have some type of brake system. Why is it an issue? Because in the rare (actually rather common) case you need to single point metric threads with an inch pattern lathe you can't release the half-nut until you have completed the operation. Cutting into a blind hole to the bottom or up to a steep shoulder without a brake or being able to reverse is very tricky. This is the basis for the hand crank systems people have made for the small lathes. They choose to cut the threads using 1 HP power (one human powered) vrs a motor.

As time permits I plain to do a mod to my G4003G of mounting a disc brake from a mountain bike on the motor and wiring up a solenoid (with disable) that will activate the brake whenever the spindle power switch is in the off position. The disable allows hand turning the spindle for indicating and when you just don't need braking action to preserve the brake pads life.

The growth of CNC machines has crowded out the market for manual machines.  Early on as the value of each square meter of floor space escalated, Japanese manufactures dropped manual machines from there product lines. Okuma dropped it completely, while Mori Seiki licensed the designs to Hwacheon in South Korea. Those lathes were sold in the US under several names (notably WEBB) before finally being branded under the Hwacheon name. They are still available, but again due to high cost and low demand they are rarely in stock. They are also a serious machine, with a very serious price tag and are big and heavy such that you will require professional riggers to move it. Some day I will likely buy one and let the G4003G go. For now I don't have a spare $12-20K for purchase and delivery.

Ideally if you want a small apartment lathe - try to find an old Harbor Freight 8x machine. - These are about 3-4x heavier than the SEIG 7x that everyone sells under different names. Still not perfect, but maybe the best buy under $1000. Spend money on a good 0XA series quick change tool post and holder set and a 6-8" wheel bench grinder to make HSS lathe bits, if your going to use brazed carbide bits get a "green" grinding wheel for carbide and store the course wheel.

Other high end small machines were made by Denford (UK), Sheldon (UK), Emco (Austria).

Now so far I have skipped over one area that can't be overlooked - and that would be Hardenge Chuckers and clones. A Hardenge is the cream of American Precision. On the used market in some parts of the US due to too many available and low demand they can be scored for less than the cost of a new Grizzly. These machines are still in production and parts and support are readily available. Why available and cheap? Low demand by industry. Business is not going to place a skilled union journeyman machinist in front of a manual machine when they can pay a CNC "machine operator" 1/3 the wage and get higher output with dramatically better repeatability in production. Non-enclosed machinery spikes a companies insurance costs.

A Hardenge usually has about a 3HP spindle motor so it can be driven with a 2.2Kw single phase VFD. While there are start/stop surge loads, it would use about the same power as an electric clothes drier.

A Hardenge type lathe is not a true "Engine lathe". There are 3 downsides to a Hardenge type machine. They were intended for small sized parts. Most models don't have the ability to single point thread. Some models do have a semi-auto threading that is pure cake. Many models can't turn between centers.  Shop wisely do lots of extra credit homework when buying a Hardenge type. While the lathe its self is small, the weight with the factory base which houses the spindle motor and hi/low clutches can be substantial. Beware of 2nd op versions which have very limited functionality.

You can use a tap to do receiver threads if you really have to. Some blueprinting operation actually involve taps. Taps can be expensive but it's relatively foolproof. The lathe (or mill) can be used as aligment tool as you turn the tap.

You don't need giant machines to do gunsmithing. All a home gunsmith will want to do is perhaps re-thread barrels, thread muzzle end, set the barrel back to correct excessive headspace, blueprint actions (or even making your own actions). You don't really need a huge lathe for this and workaround exist for smaller machines.

The bigger worry I have with apartment is how much machine can I put in the apartment before the floor caves in... So I don't know if I want to put a 1000lb machine in my apartment. Most Americans take this for granted but people from many other countries often live on upper floor apartments because first floor space are generally very expensive.

Lets go way back to my high school and early College years - when I could work all day doing construction without getting sore.

Ask - is this apartment rated OK to accept a King Sized water bed...

The center of any room is the weakest spot while next to the walls is the strongest. Using some 4x4 and 2x4 and some plywood you could make a base platform that the lathe stand sits on. Say 4ft by 3ft and 4 to 4½" tall. This base distributes the weight over a larger surface area and if the edge of it is up against the wall will have great load bearing capability. Paint it with an Epoxy enamel and it will be oil proof and be the first place oil spills to allowing you time to clean up before it reaches your actual floor. Put a few hook screws in the wall and you can hang one of those blue fiber re-enforced tarps behind the lathe to catch any flying oil coated chips. Fold it down on the machine for a dust cover when the machine is not in use. Note: Try to be sure the wall you pick is not a common wall with another apartment.

Another trick is to get a few cheap tri-fold "Changing screens" and stash them in a closet. When running the machine put up the changing screens behind you and cover with more cheap tarps or plastic sheet. Consider covering the floor also for easy cleanup.

There is almost always a way things can be done if you have the determination and resolve to see the project through.

A girl in a UK apartment built an enclosure cabinet to contain her G0704 mini-cnc mill conversion. It has two double doors which open up allowing full access to the machine. When the doors are closed for storage she has a swing arm that comes around from one side with a flat screen LED TV that mostly covers the front of the cabinet. House guests would never guess she has a CNC machine stashed in there. For short runs she can run it with the doors closed, but anything over 1 hour will cause the heat inside to get high enough to trip a thermal protection circuit. She said usually enough heat escapes during the time it takes to do tool changes that the heating problem isn't much of an issue. She also tends to run it during the day when both her neighbors are at work.

Not to hijack OPs thread.

I to am looking to get my first lathe.

I want it to do some form 1 suppressors and possibly thread some barrels (probably not going to do this).

I'd like to get a mini lathe since I don't have the equipment to move a large/heavy lathe.

What should I look for in a lathe since the diameter of the suppressor may be 2".  I'm no machinist, so please take it easy on me.

Will a 7x14" lathe work for what I'm looking to do?

I'd give the Grizzly 10x22 lathe a look, it seems like it may be just large enough for gunsmithing and it's not too heavy. I got the same problem with large machines since I live on the third floor. I already have a G0704 and I think the 10x22 lathe is in the same weight class.

14" length would be pretty limiting for any kind of barrel work, unless it has a huge spindle bore.

You would be surprised what you can move with a borrowed trailer and a harbor freight cherry picker. You do have to have a place for it to go though.