Anyone know of these guys? One of the reps Sent me a Facebook message, apparently I liked their facebook. Said they are one of the oldest "at home" gunsmithing programs around.  When you graduate you get an associates of science in firearms technology and a gunsmithing certificate. Total cost is close to $14,000. Granted the GI bill will pay for it, but still thats a LOT for home brew schooling.

Just curious as to whome may have used this? would be nice to be able to do it and not worry about moving, and atleast get my feet wet..

Im thinking about doing it. If I use my straight 9-11 gi bill, but leave atleast 1 day left on it, I'm still covered under the Voc Rehab program and can go to a physical school later.

Save your money.
If you want to be a real gunsmith you can't learn the trade by mail or on the internet.
These type of "schools" are a joke in the trade and if you applied for a job with a "certificate" or "degree" from one you'll be very lucky if they don't laugh in your face as they pitch your resume in the trash.
Bluntly, a "certificate" or "Diploma" from one of these internet or mail order schools is totally worthless in the trade.
They have just as much value as a certificate you print up on your printer.

Look at it this way: If you were an auto dealership selling expensive cars and you needed to hire a good mechanic, who'd you hire?  The guy who went to a nationally known training school that was recognized in the industry for quality people, or some guy who learned how to repair cars on the internet or by a mail order course?

Gunsmithing is a highly technical trade that works with machines (guns) that can be deadly if the gunsmith isn't competent.
The hard fact is, you cannot learn gunsmithing by mail or on the internet.
AT BEST these courses can teach you enough hobby level work to work on your OWN guns.  They will not prepare you to be a professional working on customers guns.

People don't want to hear this, they want to be told they can look at a computer screen or read some papers and become competent in a technical trade.
If you're intending to open your own business, I can give you a guarantee that you'll be out of business in less then a year, and you will stand an excellent chance of being sued for ruining someone's gun.

Here's something I wrote to another person asking about these schools:

Consider this the "Dutch Uncle" talk about gunsmithing and "certification".

The internet, mail order, and AGI videos are recognized in the industry.....as an absolute JOKE.
Apply for a job with a "Degree" or "Certification" from one of them and you'll be very lucky if they don't actually laugh in your face as they throw your resume in the trash.
All these are good for is to extract money from your wallet.

The best of them are the AGI videos, and all they're good for is to get you started on doing some light hobby gunsmithing on YOUR OWN guns. They will NOT prepare you to do work on other peoples guns.

There's only ONE certification that counts in the industry and that's a degree or certification from one of the top gunsmithing schools that you attend as a student.
Several of these have reputations in the industry for turning out professional gunsmiths and a degree from one of these will get you an interview anywhere.
The schools with the best reputations are Colorado School of Trades and Trinidad Junior College.
A couple of others are also top rated.

These schools take at least several years and cost a LOT of money.
Once you graduate, the industry will consider you a good option for a job, but the big employers like the gun companies will want you to have a few years working in a smaller shop to build up your practical skills.

Unless you intend to look for employment as a gunsmith with someone else, even these certifications are of little actual value.
As far as a customer is concerned, you can use your printer to make up a "Master Gunsmith" diploma and hang it on your wall.
It will have exactly the same value as a certification from one of the internet or mail order "schools."

If you have intentions of starting a gunsmithing business with a internet, mail order, or AGI "education" I can pretty well give you a guarantee you that two things will happen:
1. Some disgruntled customer will sue you for screwing up his gun, if in fact you don't get jammed for getting someone hurt.
This is because the internet and mail order/video crap can't teach you what you really need to know.

2. You'll go broke and be out of business in less than a year.

Want to be a REAL gunsmith?
Go to school. Get a real education from a real gunsmithing school.
While you're doing that, have a brain........ take some business classes.
I've known a good number of very talented watchmakers and gunsmiths who went bust fast because while they had plenty of talent and skills they had ZERO idea of how to run a business.

When you're a self employed gunsmith, you are NOT a gunsmith..... You're a businessman who happens to own a gunsmithing business.
You better have the businessman part down pat, or even if you're Armand Swenson or Bob Chow, you'll be bankrupt fast.

This is not what people want to hear. They want to be told that they can watch a few videos or look at an internet site and learn how to do gunsmithing.
Look at it this way:
If you were hiring a man to work on jet engines for passenger planes and one applicant learned at a professional school widely known in the aircraft industry for quality people, and the other applicant learned how to repair engines by watching some videos, who would you hire?

In their own way, guns are just as potentially dangerous. Plus, people are no longer willing to accept the old hammer mechanic gunsmithing of years ago.
They expect and DEMAND that the gun be restored to factory new mechanical condition and WILL NOT accept a screw up job.
Botch up someones gun because the video didn't cover that part and you're going to be in real trouble.

As said, this has been the Dutch Uncle talk from a retired watchmaker/gunsmith. As a professional I KNOW what I'm talking about in both trades.

Now, with all that said, if you stick to simple jobs like mounting sights, cleaning guns, installing sling swivels, etc, you can make a little money on the side.
However, the days when you could do that are pretty much gone.
These days you not only have to have an FFL for gunsmithing, you also have to have a State tax number, various State and local licenses and permits, be in an area zoned for business, and you damned well better be insured.
The BATF will insist you have all State and local permits and licenses before they'll issue an FFL.

I mean insured for loss or damage to a customers gun, a customer injured on your property, and insurance from some customer who's decided you've ruined his prize gun.
It might be a battered up old Mossberg .22, but damage or lose it and it suddenly becomes a fantastically valuable rare family heirloom worth thousands.
Think a good friend or relative won't sue you???? Guess again. Some of the bitterest lawsuits I've seen have been close relatives and life-long friends suing over a damaged gun.

Install a scope base and the owner manages to blow his best buddy away in the woods. It won't be his fault, it'll be your fault because you worked on the gun.

In summation, there's a LOT more to this than you think, and you better have both eyes wide open.

First off, Thank you for your reply. Second, a little background on SDI:

Its a Nationally accredited college. Its Gunsmithing program was started in the 1920's as the school of gunsmithing in Prescott, AZ, and had a brick and mortar school for many years.

I also agree that this isn't going to make me a master gunsmith, but its better than sitting around doing nothing until I can move, I would think? Maybe not.

Going to school at TSJC or CST(I would absolutely love to go to either one) would cost an epic shit ton of money(moving the family to CO for 14 months of school) and right now its not an option, and might not be within the next two or three years.

I dont know, maybe I am just wasting breath and money thinking this is a good start, but A) its free(GI bill) and B) it is a START. You get tools, and from what the lady that called me within 5 minutes of putting in a request for more information(still waiting on a call from CST or TSJC, put in a request and voicemails last week) you also have one on one opportunities with the instructors via personal phone numbers, facebook and email. Brownells highly recommended them over any of the other online courses due to my not being able to move, and the fact that In the future i still want to attend Trinidad(will have plenty of GI bill left).

So, I get it. You don't like online schools. You think they are a waste of time, and obviously are VERY opinionated on the subject. But do you have gunsmithing experience? Can you honestly say that this is a COMPLETE waste of time? That it a Gunsmith that I am wanting to apprentice under would LAUGH at me for going through this program vs someone that hasn't? I believe that you get out of it what you put into it.  There are guys that will tell you that there are some completely incompetent "gunsmiths' coming out of CST and TSJC as well, and there are some completely successful ones that go through this program, no?

Some of the instructors for the AS in Firearms Technology include A CST Grad, A few cops, a Vet with extensive weapons background, and a few others. Seems like a pretty knowledgeable group of guys. and the fact that Brownells is supporting them, to me, says a lot.

It's a goddamn mail order/online school USFA007.
Take that certificate and just try to find a job on that piece of paper. You will be laughed out of whatever establishment you are in if not thrown out on your keester.
I bought the entire curriculum for it and AGI's DVD gunsmithing course at a gunshow for $100.00. The AGI DVDs have a bit of worth but the Sonoran stuff comes straight out of Dunlaps "Gunsmithing".

Listen to Dfariswheel.
The man KNOWS
He has forgotten more than many of us will ever know.

The fact that a CST grad is on "staff" means nothing, he might not have been able to find a job anyplace else. Same thing with the LE and Vet on "staff".
I can show you proof of what a USMC "Armorer" did to a 1911 slide attempting to mount night sights. I can also show you proof of what a Gunsmith can do to the same slide.

You've asked on the subject of a Smithing education here before.
And you have gotten honest input by working Smith's in the real world.
Listen to them.
This is a hard and unforgiving trade. There is no "Easy Button" to it. You need to have the hands on, either as an apprentice or a brick and mortar school to have any credibility.

http://www.nragunsmithing.com/

I am greatful for everyone's input! But I got a call from the PD i applied for last month and it looks like I might get the job, so Moving Isnt an option, but I still want to get some sort of training and knowledge. There are NO gunsmiths within an hour of any direction from me, if there were id convince them to let me shadow them What do you guys suggest? If You all have some good, free books/material to get, hell even not free, I will get it. Right now I am REALLY interested in the 1911 platform as that is what I am shooting right now and Im IN LOVE. The damn thing was made for my girly ass hands and is a bone stock Para Expert commander, so i would like to upgrade stuff on it.

I will hold off on paying the money for the course, and will focus my attention more on teaching myself and learning from guys on here for now. I just wish there was a damned school in iowa that does this.

ETA. There IS a REALLY good fabrication/machine shop here in red oak, would it be worth asking if they would be willing to let me learn?


DFARIS -

I meant no disrespect. I am just frustrated that there are ZERO schools or smiths anywhere local. Smiths are 2+ hours away and schools are 8+ hours away, so I'm just trying to find the best way to learn, even if its just the basics of gunsmithing, so I can start somewhere. I've got PLENTY of friends that would let me work on their guns, and i'm 100% sure there is a market for a 'smith in this area, but I cant find the best way to learn the skills of the trade. without moving wich isnt an option at this point.

Aero, Thank you for the reply and the link, checking it out now. If i can swing the time off, I plan on going this summer, but IF I get this new job, its not going to happen. Talking with the lady at SDI, one of the things you get if you choose to do the Ar15 armorers cert. as your senior project is an 80% lower and the tools to mill it down, which seems pretty neat( I know, you can do that without the school) but its included in tuition. you also get a few "labs" throught the course that require tools, and such which are all included in tution.

This is what labs you do all tools under the bold labs are included and sent:


Cleaning Firearms Lab:

Deluxe Universal Gun Cleaning Kit and Brownell’s Catalog

Basic Hand Tools Lab:
8-piece, Hollow Ground Screwdriver Set
Brass Gunsmithing Hammer and Punch Set

Stock Fitting and Metal Work Lab:
Pull and Drop Gauge
Trigger Pull Gauge
12-piece Needle File Set
Honing Stone
Swivel Base Drill Bit Set

Gunstock Checkering Lab:
Wood Stock Blank
Set of Checkering Tools
Checkering Decal

Scope Mounting Lab:
Bore Sighter with 16 piece arbor set
Shot saver pattern
Jack First Catalogs- Volume I & II

Moto Tool Lab:
Moto Tool plus accessory/bit assortment (30+ pieces)

Dfaris knows as posted above. What he wrote is true in virtually all professional trades.
There are some very good books on 'smithing the 1911 out there. I'm sure Brownells sells them. In your shoes, I would get some books, read through them and decide which tools you need and pick up a project 1911 to tinker with.
Does AGI sell individual "lessons"? If so, order their 1911 lesson and see what that's all about.

Thanks KB, like I said i meant no disrespect to him.

I dont plan on this being the end all be all for my gunsmithing education, more of a starting pad. As I said before, this will leave roughly 26 months of schooling left on my GI bill, then I can go and use the voc Rehab program once thats up. End goal would be to eventually attend Trinidad, yavapai, etc and get the actual hands on school, or attend one of the NRA's gunsmithing courses when one becomes more local to me!

Thanks aero!

But do you have gunsmithing experience? Can you honestly say that this is a COMPLETE waste of time?

I was originally trained as a watchmaker, and I was both a watchmaker and a gunsmith.
The shop I worked in worked mostly as a trade shop for other gunsmiths and gun stores.
My specialty was restoring Colt double action revolvers to factory spec condition.
I got a lot of business from other gunsmiths who found out that the Colt action really is different and no, they couldn't figure it out like they did S&W and Ruger's.
I kept up with trends and problems in both trades, so I pretty well know what goes on.

No, it's not a complete waste of time, but what you get out of it depends on your skills and talent.
In both trades you either "have it" or you don't.
A attendance school will tell you, one way or another, if you have the talent to do the job.  
Mail order and home study courses can't do that, and most won't even try.  All they care about is the money you send them.

If you have the genuine talent and can develop the skills, you can learn quite a bit, but you won't learn the faster-better ways you HAVE to have to make it as a pro.
Most critical, you never really know if you're doing it the right way and you don't have a good instructor looking at your work, telling you those faster better ways, and telling you you're just not doing it well.

These are very technical trades, and like most, you just don't get what's needed by looking at a video, computer screen, or reading a booklet.
So, if the Gov is paying for it and you have the time, there's no real reason not to do this, just don't be surprised if no one will even consider hiring you.
Last, the closest thing to suicide would be to attempt to open a shop with one of these courses as your education.

In both trades I've seen poorly trained or just plain unqualified people fail big time because they just couldn't do the work and no one told them they weren't up to it.  
Opinions on your work by friends isn't what you need to hear.
I've also seen absolute great skilled people go bankrupt fast or get fired because they just couldn't do the work fast AND good.  No one showed them how, and by the time they figured it out, it was too late.

So, if it's basically free, go for it.  Just don't think that this will qualify you to be a real professional gunsmith.

After some more thought:

If you really want to be a gunsmith, AND you have the talent and can develop the skills, and it won't cost you to buy this course, you could use it as a launching pad for a higher level of education using other venues then an attendance school.

We NEED good gunsmiths, but I tell it like it is.  The idea is to make sure people really understand the facts of the trade, and don't get lost in starry views of making a lot of money or being world famous custom smiths.
The facts are rather grim.  You will not make a lot of money and if you're in business for yourself, you'll be very lucky to be making minimum wage, figuring in all the hours you'll spend doing businessman's functions in addition to actual gunsmithing.

Once you take this course, you can look into the NRA classes, and consider going to somewhere like Cylinder & Slide Shop for one of their classes.
Unless you're a cop or actually employed as a police armorer, most gun companies will not allow you into their armorers classes.
Many of the good schools also offer short courses in specific subjects.

I would advise considering what kind of gunsmith you want to be.  If you want to specialize consider taking only courses directly related to that specialty.
As example, if you want to build custom 1911 pistols, it's a waste of time and money taking a course on stock making.
Also consider what work is most needed in your area.  There's not a lot of call these days for people who can make a stock from a stock blank, and stock checkering is something you can teach yourself with the aid of a book from Brownell's, if it's even called for in your area.

If you want to get a job for someone else, understand up front that you're going to need a lot better credentials then a internet or video degree.
If you intend to start your own business, this is about as risky as it gets.
There's a heavy attrition of business that go broke in less then a year, no matter what it is or who's running it.
I think this is on the order of 50% of new business that fail.

You'll have to have enough money to survive at least one year until you build up a client base and the work starts coming in.
Equipment costs a LOT of money, especially if you're buying lathes and milling machines.
However, there's this picture of a gunsmith as a man standing over a milling machine doing intricate metal work.
The truth is, a gunsmith spends most of his time sitting at a bench with screwdrivers, punches, and stones and files working on an assembly.

Understand that you'd damned well better have insurance up the wazoo.
This means insurance in case a customers gun get lost, stolen, damaged, or you botch it up.
DO NOT delude yourself that a close friend or relative won't sue you.  Some of the most bitter lawsuits I've ever seen were friends and brothers suing over a watch or gun.

You'll need liability insurance in case a customer gets hurt on your property.
You'll need insurance if/when some fool gets hurt or hurts someone else with a gun that you laid a finger on.

For an inexpensive start, buy one of the Jerry Kuhnhausen Shop Manuals from Brownell's or Midway on a gun you own.
Use the manual to disassemble the gun fully and understand how it all works.
Kuhnhausen wrote these manual as training aids for gunsmith students, and since he trained people fro the gun companies, the methods shown are how the gun companies do it.
The old "make it work....somehow" methods are no longer acceptable, and if you do the old heating and bending type of work of years past, your customer will NOT accept that.  These days they demand their guns be restored to factory condition, not hacked up just to get them working.
These manuals will give you a more clear idea of what level of work customers demand today.

So, approach this with both eyes wide open, and if you fully understand what's what.... go for it.  We need GOOD gunsmiths.

Dfaris, THANK YOU. Seriously. You are the type of guy i would pay GOOD money to be able to learn from. This is basically free, PLUS the GI bill will pay me $700/month on top of paying for the tuition, so actually I will get paid to go! I know if i do decide to do it, it will NOT make me a professional gunsmith. I FULLY understand it will only give me the BASICS to learn from, and launch my love of guns, and everything about them.

I am hoping to be able to attend CATM (Combat arms training and maintenance) school through my unit, but right now they dont have any slots for CATM instructors, so I have to wait.

If you were in my shoes, would you chose SDI, AGI, or one of the others like Penn Foster? To me it looks like SDI gives the most comprehensive course out of all of them and you even get 'labs" with hands on stuff too.

Take machining classes at your local CC.

Thanks Aero! That school in MN is too far, So thats out of the question. Are there ANY of the online schools worth sending my GI bill too?

You will not learn to be a gunsmith via correspondence courses.

This should be in bold red letters at the top of this section!

Spend $XXXX.00 on a correspondence/online Gunsmithing course, print "Certificate."
Spend $2.49 on a 4pack of Charmin TP.

Guess which piece of paper has more tangible value in the real world?


OP- you seem to missing a very valuable trait of EVERY good Gunsmith.

Listening to those that know.


Don't know what your doing? You get to deal with this: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1590078_.html&page=1&anc=45567334#i45567334

Link made hot.  AeroE

there is a school in south-eastern Illinois if that is close enough for you to attend maybe?

This.  A full machining program at a community college would provide the metal working knowledge and hands-on training with mills and lathes and other industry related equipment.

well Gents, after MUCH deliberation, calling around, and talking to local "gunsmiths" I have decided to go ahead and enroll into the SDI Associates of Science in Firearms Technology and gunsmithing. I will update as I go along in the program, and hopefully be able to provide a detailed, step by step informative thread that will help guys that might want to do the program decide if its for them. I will be shadowing a local smith during the program, he has been smithing for longer than I have been alive, albeit as a side gig. He seems to really know his shit, and has a pretty good rep in the community, so i'm looking forward to it.

Thanks for the advice, feedback and help gents. Cant wait to get started!  I will start a new thread, so that it is fresh and free of clutter.

OP- best of luck and hope it works out well.

free will is alive and well.

haha. Yup. Although, There MIGHT be a SLIGHT part of me thats doing it just because ARFCOM said no


ETA. I own page 1 AND 2 of my thread. BOOM.

It's your thread, if you hadn't noticed. All most here were saying, and I am one of them, is that the hands on education, the classroom experience, you can get from a brick and mortar school is worth far more than any mail order program you can buy. If you have a set amount of funds to work with you will be further along with a real vocational school not some mail order drop box. I ran into a rep from SDI  a year ago in Des Moines for the Brownell's Gunsmith convention. Nice guy, but the program he was selling to military bases sounded like a way to separate servicemen from their or the government's money for a certificate.

If he reconsiders it.

Still hoping to make it!! I've got two different correctional facilities asking me to come test for them though one is in SD the other here in Iowa. Depending on work, I will make it

Guys this is justa stepping stone. A very small one at that. Money wise I will still have enough of my gi bill to go back to school for two years after this, and that is the plan.

Well, got my first two "modules" in the mail last week, finished one greatest, 4 tests in all in the first book or "module". It's a very basic intro to guns, smithing, FFL  acquisition, shop setup, etc.

Should start getting tools in the third module pretty excited.

Wish I saw this thread earlier.  My advice would have been to take some machining courses and gas welding courses locally.  The skills you'll need can't be learned online.  I went to CST in the early 70's (GI Bill).  The machining and welding skills taught were the most important I've used.  I suppose you could try and teach yourself how to run a bluing set-up, but it would be a challenge.  The most valuable asset of a resident course is when they give you a pile of guns to repair and you have some very talented and experienced people looking over your shoulder to ask questions of.  The school took in guns for the students to work and I swear a lot of them were jobs that other shops just declined to do.  I got a S&W .38 that a cop dropped in the woods somewhere and found over a year later.  What a mess.  A regular shop would have to charge far more than the gun was worth, but at least he got back a fairly decent looking, functional gun.  Like I said - in the real world I would have turned down the job, but I learned a lot by working on that thing.  
Bottom line -you can probably develop basic skills locally but it's the experience that is hard to get in the mail.  Also, gunsmiths tend to specialize in certain areas.  Stock making was a biggie back in the day.  Nowadays, only a few folks ply the trade - The ones that actually make a living at it are not only good, but relatively fast as well.  I think a run of the mill gunsmith that takes on a stock job when someone brings in a nice blank for his Dads' M98 will loose his ass in short order.  Buts that's just a business decision.  I hope that the course you're taking doesn't try and pump sunshine up your pooper and at least approaches the whole business with at least some honesty and real world attitude.

Good luck.

well gents, so far so good. Just started my second semester. While the first, was, well pretty easy, I did learn quite a bit. There are some things I dont really like about the system, particularly their testing system, however, Thats with any school. This semester, Im getting into the "labs", and have recieved three packages so far, including a Dip Wizard Hydrographics kit, some hollow-ground screwdrivers, a punch set, a "professional" gun cleaning kit and BSA scope alignment tool. Nothing fancy, but it will all work for the projects.  

Should be getting at least one more package with some more tools, hopefully tomorrow.

One thing that I do have to do this semester that I am not looking forward to is English Comp 1. Easy class, but I fucking HATE english comp lol.

pics of the everything i have gotten(minus the books)