Read chart and show me where 9mm peaks out. Looks like it varies with most loads peaking at 14"-15" and maybe a very minute drop off at 16".
My eyes are old and tired and maybe I missed the loads that peaked at 10".

I reload thousands of 9mm rounds and can bet you that I can have some peak at 16" with the right bullets and powders, and do it safely. Heck, there are some listed there that don't peak until 18"s.  Now, we can load some that peak early but I don't think that is the best approach. But, YMMV

Ballistics by the inch for 9mm

Most loads you're only gaining about 15-30fps from 10" to 16". That extra SIX inches isnt worth the extra 30fps. Even an extra 100fps isnt worth it. So yes the peak performance to weapon size is around 10" barrel. No one will be able to tell the difference in a wound from a 9mm going 1067fps vs 1083fps. Obviously more barrel length adds velocity, but there is a balance between velocity and barrel length. After about 9-10" its wasted barrel length. Look at the chart you posted, those changes in velocity after 10" are non-significant. That chart is perfect for explaining how useless a 9mm over 10" is. Some of those numbers are like 7" fps faster from 10 to 16" barrels lol. And still none of them touch the 556. A pistol with a 16" barrel is a waste. If you can't SBR it, you're still better off buying a 9" pistol and using a blade/brace. Especially if putting a can on it.

The other thing you have to remember is if you push a light 115 grain load to those velocities it wont penetrate far enough. So you are still better off with a 147gr or 124gr going slower and penetrating 12-16" than you are with a super fast 115gr that  penetrates 7". The ideal load is a 147 or 124 going around 1,300 fps to expand big yet still penetrate far.
The most badass round I have found for 9mm SBRs is the Gold Dot 124 +P and HST 124 +P going around 1,350fps. Those expand nicely and still penetrate deep enough. 147 HST for subsonic.

I would take a 9" MP5 over a 16" MP5 any day even if it gives up 90fps. The difference in wounds from a 9mm at 1,320fps and 1,480 fps is non-significant.

And, technically yes those loads peak out at or before 10" barrel length. scientifically they are gaining less velocity per inch after 10" then they were in the first 10". The velocity increase per inch is not worth the inch.
I stand by what I said, 9mm velocity increase peaks around 10", and the ideal balance of performance for 9mm is out of a 9-10" barrel for almost all loads. After 10" its wasted length.
Actually ideal length is probably more like 8", I mean look at that chart, you're DOUBLING your barrel length from 8" to 16" and only gaining less than 100fps. LOL NOT worth it!
Wow the federal 147 at 8" is 1047fps and at 16" 1073fps. That's absolutely not worth doubling your barrel length. Why would you want a rifle with a 16" barrel in 9mm? You end up with a rifle that has the same effectiveness as a pistol but now its longer. The best approach is to buy an MPX pistol and put a shockwave blade on it or SBR it.

OK, I'll say 8-9" barrel length is ideal, especially with a 7" can on it.

I'd like to see the regular 147gr HST tested, not the +P.

Either or works for me. I have both.

I would be shocked if there was any difference in the two. For me they chrono only about 10fps different in a 8" barrel.

Missed this post. Thanks for the info!

Absolutely.
Hey you're in NV? Me too, give me a call we'll do some testing together. I have a TON of different things.

For those who so love those short barrels:  There is something else that needs to plug into the conversation:  ATF rules.

While some of you may have money to burn, not everyone does. As soon as you want a barrel that is a couple of inches shorter than 16" you have to go through a long and costly process with the ATF. Oh, and then once you have that done there is the matter of transporting your SBR baby if you are going to cross state lines. Some of us live at the junction of three states and move around a bit. We have to file paperwork just to take our firearm ten miles away.

So for some who never leave the state with their SBR this is not an issue. But for others, it can become a big issue in both cost ($200) and inconvenience. Meanwhile my CX-4 with the magazine in its grip is short, very light and easy to handle. No ATF issues and no extra stamps, engraving, etc. Easy to sell and transport. That is important to some of us. So, I would ask myself, is with worth a few hundred bucks and possible future paperwork headaches to get a firearm that is a couple of inches shorter? Something tells me that some folks just want a little toy SBR just because. That is fine, its your dime, but its not for everyone.

Yea SBR isn't for everyone, but I dont know why
Just kidding. But seriously,
Its pretty easy to fill out one piece of paper, get finger print cards and passport photos and mail it off. Takes less than an hour depending on where you live. Then you just wait for the mail, not a big deal. Then for travel what I do is just have a 5320 for an entire 364 days every year for all over the country. Its really not as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Just have to mail in paperwork once a year if you travel. I even wrote a letter to ATF requesting a 5320 to my neighboring state Utah for a best western hotel because I go to Utah every now and then to backpack or whatever, and that was approved. Good for a year. No big deal. ATF are really nice and I've had only good experiences with them. I think people way overblow some of the NFA stuff.
Another route is the Shockwave blade or other company braces. Then you're still subgun small and no ATF paperwork.
I think with the new brace/blade out its got to hurt the 16" gun market. Plus, its nice for me to have an MPX or short subgun type in pistol form with a blade because then it can be chambered in a vehicle while driving around hunting. Rifles can't have one in the chamber in a vehicle. So thats another plus for pistols.
Its absolutely all personal though. I'm just glad companies finally offer more options. More options the better IMHO.

My avatar needs to be in this thread.  Was taken outside in the dusk with a 12.5" 5.56

Id have to test them in the EVO barrel, but it was a solid 50 fps in a 3.6" barrel.

Yea I could see that, but the difference between 1,100fps and 1,200 isn't going to be noticeable in a handgun wound.
I'd be curious to see the gel test, more tests the better, but from reports I've seen there is just not much difference in a gel test with 9mm even in different weights and velocities.
100fps variance doesn't seem to matter. With 9mm you're relying on actually hitting vital structures making expansion important.

well... a 9mm round cannot compare to a 5.56mm round in the energy department, hell in ANY dept. ... so that's out first thing.  5.56mm > scorpion. cant even compare it power wise.

however... PLENTY of people consider a 9mm handgun to be perfectly fine for self defense.... so, it lends to reason a 30 round, 9mm, with a stock, and 8" of barrel... out preforms any 9mm handgun there is. scorpion with a stock is very small collapsed, can out preform a handgun at all ranges with the stock ( 100 yards easy).... so.... scorpion > 9mm handgun, or 45acp handgun....honestly, IMHO id take a 9mm scorpion over pretty much ANY handgun.. you get approx. 2x as much ammo as the handgun, better velocity, better hit probably at longer distances, etc.

if I had a choice of a 9mm scorpion or a 5.56mm gun and I KNEW I was going to be in a fight.. id pick 5.56mm all day long.  but, for a easy to carry gun, that's light, can fit in tight spaces mount a optic, or a light, or a suppressor, and be used for a home defense weapon. with less muzzle blast, and quick follow up shots..... is take the scorpion over a ar-15 sbr for home defense... ( unless I knew someone was going to break in, and in that case I would have as much gun as possible ). but you carry the gun that's easy to carry and is reasonably effective... vs what would be most effective. a glock 40 10mm beats the hell out of a .9mm sub compact.... but the g-40 is not always practical to carry.

obviously a 5.56mm gun has more power, and would be a better fight stopper round for round.


however, I bought a scorpion for my woman to use as a home defense weapon. shes a terror with a carbine, and can shoot very well. however, with a handgun, shes hopeless. I can get her to shooting really well... wait a couple of  days and she cant hit a man sized target at 7 yards. but. with a long gun, like a at sbr, shes awesome, every. single. time.

I predict her being SUPER effective with a scorpion. plus its small and easy to carry around, carries about 2x as much ammo as a 9mm handgun, and its at LEAST 1/2 the size of even a 8" ar-15. not to mention much less muzzle blast. sure a ar-15 is a BETTER self defense gun... but not in this situation. in this situation a 9mm is better. due to size, weight, and muzzle blast.

Without a suppressor, a 5.56 gun inside a house is brutal to shoot in blast/flash. PCC is gtg, plenty of lethality unless armor is a concern.

That sounds like getting run over by an F150 vs a dump truck.
A supersonic 9mm in a hallway would still suck balls

Hard to say the +P is really "better" in the wound dept from the EVO, but it did penetrate more, but that have been because the +P lot I have is the newer design with the shorter skives.

You ever shot 5.56 indoors, at indoor things?

Some common 5.56 projectiles at typical indoor distances will penetrate fewer walls than 9mm/.40/.45 or 00 buckshot.    It's not magic, and it's been known for decades.


A PCC easily beats a pistol, especially factoring how easy it is to land hits.   I would not feel undergunned with one but you simply cannot compare a pistol round to even an intermediate rifle round.

Your training / skill / immediate actions will dictate how the event goes far more significantly than ballistics.  That being said both have pros / cons.

For example, my woman likes to shoot the MP5, its light and boring accurate at its intended ranges.  She hates the SBR AR15 due to muzzle blast.  Only hits count, she practices with the MP5 and is proficient with it, therefore the MP5 is her go-to HD gun.

That's really not true

You can easily push a 115 grain bullet over 1600 fps from a 16" barrel

Yeah but why? Then you have a firearm thats longer than a 556 or 300blk SBR and less effective.
A 9mm is never going to be as powerful as a 556 or 7.62, and in most cases you're getting a bigger package for less power. Not too mention most 9mm going that fast won't penetrate far enough and break up too quick.

I dont know where everyone is getting these light small MP5s from? My MP5 is bigger and more than a pound heavier than my MK18 and 9" 300LBK. And suppressed the MP5 with Gemtech multimount is much longer than any of my rifle SBRs. The internet has hurt a lot of people.

Not much to add except my opinion

Use what you shoot often, comfortably and accurately.
Doesn't matter if it's a 9mm or 5.56 or 300BLK.  All will work.
Everything I keep in the house for HD is suppressed.  I've shot all 3 indoors without a can and it's unpleasant even with ear protection, but more importantly makes me less effective.
Especially 5.56.  A short barreled AR is just ridiculous without a can.
In true AR15.com fashion, beside my bed right now I've got a SBR 300BLK with a suppressor along with a suppressed Glock 34 both loaded with Lehigh Defense subsonics.  
Either is just fine.

YMMV

You are truely ready for all  hell to break out! As Mr. T would say, "I pity the fool that would come uninvited into your home!"

The best gun in a fight is the gun you have in your hand. That said, a 9mm will get the job done as will the others. Of course I suppose you could get a 400 Nitro Express and out power all of these.....just joking...my point is, use what you have.

A supersonic 9mm round indoors would be painful but tolerable and you probably wouldn't think much about it due to adrenaline. On the other hand I'm pretty sure a 5.56 in a hallway could possibly rupture your eardrums on the first shot, or at least leave your head ringing so hard that it would be a very serious distraction from the fight. In that regard 9mm is probably a better choice for HD. Also, I use 147gr HST2 which are subsonic, and I know that those are quite tolerable indoors. I don't want my gun to have a flash/bang effect on me, so my only 5.56 HD gun runs with a suppressor.

I forget how the discussion started, but years ago someone was advocating for a heavy inside gun, so I suggested they get a ported 45-70 lever gun. Fire off a round, flames, noise, smoke, everyone is deaf and blind and probably running away, other than the guy that got hit by it of course.


For myself, I hate the noise of 223, I had a 11" with a M402 and it was still too loud for comfort. I like my 223's longer to get more out of them. But of course, I have a short 300blk, a 9mm SBR, and a bedside 45 pistol, all of them with silencers. Of course, I live alone and I'm not friendly with the neighbors, so there is that as well.

If you're limited to just one gun for some reason, so be it, but otherwise layered/ overlapping stuff is great and don't limit yourself to trying to find one size to fit all.

This.

The same part of the fight-or-flight response that pulls blood from your extremities and forces it into your muscles also has a secondary effect of tightening the inner ear.  

That's why plenty of people don't experience any ringing in the ears at all. They call their lawyer, talk to police/ first responders, etc...



No. It's really not that bad.

Hearing is important, and you only get two ears, but much too big a deal is made about rupturing ear drums, eye-searing flash, teeth-rattling concussion, etc...

It's important to protect, but in the fight of your life, it ranks around after staining the carpet in terms of priorities.

I've fire a 9mm in doors with out ear protection and while loud it wasn't painful but no way would I ever want to fire an AR indoors without some sort of protection.

My go to bed side gun is an m&p9 with 147gr hst. I'm getting a scorpion carbine soon which will be my go to carbine for HD. I don't really want to mess around with sbrs right now which is why I'm going carbine

I'd love to see a ballistic test with a 9mm in a 16in barrel.

It wont be that much more effective than a 9" 9mm.
Why not get the pistol and put a shockwave blade on it? Have you shot both of them? Its a better gun all around, and cheaper.
I guess the carbine is nice if you want to shoulder it though

I want to legally shoulder it plus the mlok attachments for a light is nice.

If I get a pistol it will be with a folding brace and no one has one in stock right now. So if the brace becomes available before I buy the carbine I'll go pistol

Half the crowd says go carbine it's a barrel chop away from sbr the other  says go pistol because 16in 9mm is dumb

You should try it. It's not that crazy.

No one "official" would ever dare suggest it, because OSHA and hearing conservation and all that, but I think everyone should do it just to put an end to this nonsense about exploding ear drums and blood gushing out of your ears.

Try it outdoors first, and then in a shoothouse. Just once.

It will probably do less damage than a being near a speaker in the club or going to a rock concert.



Already covered... but you're not going to see much awesome out past 8" of barrel.

Maybe some funky bench-loading alchemist can work up a special slow burning load that develops velocity over 10+ inches and is smoking at the muzzle... but why?

Worst advice ever.

Hearing damage is cumulative and permanent.

I've shot my AR without ear protection out doors once and that was enough. Since I'm selling one AR to buy an evo my remaining ar is my Recce/precision rifle with a brake on it and ya not using that in or out doors without protection

DO NOT fire an AR15 indoors without ear protection.  If you do it is a roll of the dice.

I take care of people with hearing loss and I have seen permanent hearing loss from a single round fired off at close range.

I just got a carbine Scorpion because of the design of the handguard that allows a suppressor to reflex up into the forend.  It will be shot only with a suppressor or with ear protection on.

Yes... we know there will now be 400+ posts of this.

The truth is, your eardrums will not explode, your ears will ring. Maybe they will stop.

Also, there is no such thing as "temporary hearing damage" since ears don't fix themselves.

It's all "permanent," and since life is chronological it's all "cumulative..."

Every loud noise you've ever experienced from M80's on the 4th of July to the Blue Angels Air Show.

The point is, it's very important, but it's not "Ohhhhh myyyyy!"

All the hype is based on the convergence of recently-minted ballerina troupe millennial shooters and the spin on getting suppressors de-listed for "safety reasons."

(Full Disclosure: Sometimes I go to bed without brushing my teeth too.)

I usually don't do this but you need to stop giving this advice.
I am an Otolaryngologist (Oklahoma ENT)(okent))

Yes, sometimes ears do (fix) themselves.  It's called a temporary threshold shift.  You just never know if it's going to be temporary or permanent.

To even suggest that being paranoid about noise exposure is somehow equivalent to a lilting gait or the snowflake generation is wrong.
There is no training benefit in any way to firing a centerfire rifle in an enclosed space without ear protection.  Ever.
I have no issue with the claim that noise exposure is cumulative over time but that's not the only way to lose hearing.
In my previous post I explained that I have seen a patient who lost hearing forever from a single shot.  She was 5.
Eardrums may not explode but hearing can and does go away forever from one stupid or accidental incident.

I totally get it. I've been through both sets of god given teeth, and a good bit of my hearing. The rock and roll music is very bad, as are motorcycles which are also detrimental to perfect health.

NOW... walking things back to the context of this thread...

In your Octopolonarnygist opinion- Is it a valid criteria to select a handgun or PCC over an intermediate or full powered rifle for defense because your ears ring less after splattering a mofos blood and brain matter all over your couch, curtains, etc?

OR... is that maybe just a lie that someone might tell themselves to justify the fact that they like their little K-gun next to the bed and it makes them feel safe and happy.

(Cue: Full size SMG is better, SBR AR is better, Carbine AR is better, Rifle AR is better, FAL/G3/M14 is better, blah blah)
(OH... and: shoot through the whole house, down the block, and flip your neighbor's car over, blah blah)

In my previous post I gave my opinion on what I use why.  

Not to say it's the right thing for everyone but I can shoot my weapons effectively and that's all that matters.

Doesn't anyone keep ear pro next to their bed?
Next to my bed is a suppressed 9" BLK, and next to that is a pair of MSA ears. Its very easy to throw them on when you hear a noise in your house. Most of the time people think someone is breaking in, they have plenty of time to open their eyes, listen, think about it, then grab a gun if they choose. While thats being done it only adds a second or two to throw those ears on.
I wear ear pro even when shooting subsonic suppressed outside. Why not?

Hearing loss is a real thing I wish people would stop telling people not to protect their ears.

Suppressor manufacturers in my opinion have been bad for peoples health with all their "hearing safe..." talk. Ears should still be worn even when shooting suppressed, especially inside.
Like said above, there is no reason to fire a rifle inside without ears just to hear it.

Back on topic, my buddy was just on scene for a GSW to the stomach from a 9mm. On scene after being shot in the stomach he continued to fire his weapon and ran behind his car. Guy had surgery and is fine.

I keep suppressed BLK next to the bed and I'd be equally happy with a suppressed 10" 556 if I didn't own BLK. Whatever happened to the saying "a handgun is for you to fight your way to your rifle". Seems odd its evolved into "buy a bigger gun thats the same size as a rifle but shoots the same bullet as a handgun with the same effectiveness as a handgun".

Take suppressed out of the picture not everyone can afford one or is allowed to own one.  

So now say a standard 16in ar with 30rounds 556 and a scorpion 16in carbine 30 rounds 9mm both have a red dot and a light. I'm honestly going to prefer the scorpion over the AR if for no other reason than noise level. 9mm will work just fine should the need arise.

I've tested a 9mm in doors without hearing protection is was startling but was able to function ears rang a bit but wasn't terrible. I don't want to test this with a rifle round

Suppressors different story but like I said not everyone has one.  Rifle is a tool pick the right one for your needs be it 9mm or, 556

Caliber is no substitute for training.  
There is also the old saying "fear the man with one gun, because he probably knows how to use it"

I used to keep some Pro Ears Gold muffs at my bedside until I got suppressors.

Too bad he didn't have your .300 BLK- because nobody gets gut shot with a ~123gr .30 projectile and walks it off.

(Except for, like... 1/2 of the population of Iraq and 1/2 of the population of Afghanistan and 1/4 of the population of Syria, and...)

He lived because he was not delivered a fatal wound (super simple stuff, right?)

Going all the way back to the beginning of the thread, it doesn't matter if you defend your home with an FAL/M14/G3 or a 10mm handgun or a 10 gauge shotgun- Non lethal hits are non lethal.

The thread is called "9mm PPC defensive effectiveness?"

When unknown mercenaries led by a rogue member of my team break into my home to kidnap my daughter, is it going to matter that I'm shooting them with an MP5?

No, because they'll be dead before they hit the ground so long as I'm making solid, lethal hits in good number with quality ammo.

(It won't matter that my ears ring for 3 days or there's brains on the rug either)

I dont even know where to start with this.
1) Plenty of people die from "non-lethal wounds" do to blood loss and other factors, and a rifle has a LOT higher chance of ending a life with an extremity or abd hit than does a 9mm. And actually yes in my experience I would be very surprised if that guy survived the same hit in the same place but with a .223. Rifles tear shit up.
2) OP is asking about 9mm "stopping power" vs a rifle. Here's his exact post "How does a 9mm PPC rank in lethality in defensive situations ? I hate to use the term "stopping power" but how does a 124gr. 9mm FMJ out of a 16" barrel compare to the stopping/lethal effect of a 5.56 or 7.62x39 under 100m ? Of course the advantages of not over penetrating, lower flash , lower recoil, and lower decibel report are where the PPC shine, but is it effective at stopping threat inside 50-100m ? What are your thoughts or experiences ? -Thanks" AND to answer the actual question, no a 9mm is not as much of a fight stopper as a 556 or 7.62. The 556 and 762 have more of a lethal effect. To answer the op.
3) use whatever you want, but a rifle is MUCH more powerful and MUCH more of a fight stopper.
4) yes 9mm has advantages in terms of noise, and maybe recoil or perceived shootability. Thats it.

As per the middle east comment I'm not going there, but at home expanding/fragmenting ammo at defensive ranges is a completely different story. Comparing apples to oranges pulling in some "I've heard about this situation in combat where a round didn't work".

Remember, 300BLK was designed to replace the MP5. It was ACTUALLY BUILT to be more lethal than the MP5 but in the same length and quietness. I mean theres not much more to say after that. Its like buying the new Subaru WRX designed to rally race and saying its not as good as the 1982 Audi that raced Rally. Modern advances are worth realizing. 300BLK was developed, not just something people thought would be more fun to use than a 9mm.



ps. Im not trying to harp on the PCCs, I LOVE my MPX, and I LOVE PCCs, but you cannot tell people a PCC is as powerful as a rifle, or even just as good. Maybe some other guys with experience will chime in and talk about their UMPs and MP5s having issues stopping bad guys. Plenty of dudes make it to the ED with multiple COM handgun hits, not so much with 556.

It isn't nearly as bad as you're making it out to be. Even without a suppressor. Have you ever shot a SBR at night? Or just read about it on the internet, where every fish is 2 foot long and every woman you've slept with is a model?  

Every entry team that can afford a SBR is using a SBR.

Fragmenting bullets versus bullets that are designed to stick together and penetrate.
You were given the wrong impression.

Nobody with an opinion worth listening to thinks 5.56 is inadequate. Particularly with the extremely effective ammunition available to the civilian market.

Just curious if the 300 blackout is really that much better than a pcc as suggested?  Ive been looking at the 300 for a while but I can not see what it has over say a pcc 45 acp in similar barrel lengths (subsonics)?  The 300 uses pistol powder and a 220 or 240gr bullet running around 900-1000 fps.  The 45acp runs close to that, I know the 300 has much better bullet bc. and from reading on the blackout forum accuracy at 100yds is 2-3moa.  So is the 300 really that much better than a pcc?

Jeez, my eyes are bleeding reading all these opinions. But I'll give mine, too:

- Engagements inside a typical house are going to be at 20-30 feet on average (or less in some cases).
- A 'rifle-power' firearm at 20-30 feet is generally overkill, as rifle cartridges are designed for longer-range applications.
- We're not talking moose here ... high-powered cartridges at 20-30 feet will punch through a human.
- A pistol-caliber firearm with the right cartridge at 20-30 feet is very effective on humans.
- As someone else pointed out, if you want to blow someone away, get a 12-gauge.

does anybody have a picture of an Evo pistol/sbr or MPX next to a 10 or so inch SBR AR in 223? With and without can if possible. I keep hearing these size comparisons and I want to see for myself.

I'm replacing my 11.5" 223 SBR with something but I'm not sure what yet. It was loud as all get out indoors, even with plugs. I don't have a can for it and won't until HPA passes, so it will be a while. I'm thinking about switching to 300BO or a 9mm PCC mostly because of the noise issue, but also because why not. I think 300 fills a cool roll of being able to go from quiet thumpers (it's ballistically a 45ACP... 220gn at 1000 f/s is pretty much what a 45 is) to some supersonic loads (generally a 30-30 from what I'm reading) seems like a good multi-use gun.

Man... you are winning this argument every-damn-day.

Who are you talking to, BTW?

sorry no can since they are not allowed here..
just a crappy pic with stocks fully extended... the AR has a 10.3 barrel

Not terribly helpful


5.1" scorpion with Manticore slider and Tirant 9
12.4" 870
11.5" 5.56 with Surefire mini



Maybe I need to line them up and take a new one. Those was like 2 months ago