How does a 9mm PPC rank in lethality in defensive situations ? I hate to use the term "stopping power" but how does a 124gr. 9mm FMJ out of a 16" barrel compare to the stopping/lethal effect of a 5.56 or 7.62x39 under 100m ? Of course the advantages of not over penetrating, lower flash , lower recoil, and lower decibel report are where the PPC shine, but is it effective at stopping threat inside 50-100m ? What are your thoughts or experiences ? -Thanks

9MM FMJ would likely zip right through a person and keep on moving. I like my PCCs and would prefer it for home defense. Good HP ammo, suppressor and 30 rounds of easily controlled fire power would be ideal inside a house.

The 9mm is a handgun round. Putting it in a carbine does not increase the velocity much over a handgun.  So the stopping power is not increased that much over a handgun.  The advantage is shot placement and the ability to put more rounds on target vs. a handgun.   Comparing the 9mm to a .223 or 7.62 round it loses.   Entry teams across the USA dropped MP5's in favor of 5.56 carbines and SBRs.  The 5.56 round has much more stopping power.   The myth of a 9mm round not overpenetrating vs a 5.56 round is just not true. Both will penetrate sheetrock. The question is what round has more lethality after going through sheet rock?  I was under the impression the 5.56 round broke up and was less lethal after going through sheetrock but now I am not sure.

400 ftlbs energy as opposed to about 1200 in a 5.56.  And you must have the exact right bullet for both also.  End of comparison.

I love my 9mm B&T SBR with a can and light. Its small, light, and quiet. This replaces the bed side full size handgun role. It does not replace the 5.56 AR15 SBR role. That is still the one to grab if you have time.

This
30rnds of controllable, suppressed 9mm is nothing to sneeze at but I'll grab my 8.5" suppressed 300blk first
Ymmv

Unless youre going to fight alone against The red army a 9mm PCC is plenty powerfull for self defense.
9mm SMG are successfully used around The world by mil/Leo for a good reason.

A FMJ round maybe is not The best choice anyway

Think 9mm and add around 200 +/- fps. So around 357 mag performance ? I keep a Beretta CX4 Storm as my primary house gun. I do not feel  under gunned.

While I agree with the sentiment, if I'm fighting in my house with my wife and kids around, I want the absolute quickest fight stopper which in my opinion is a Barnes 110g 300blk.
If I'm only good enough to score one hit, I want to maximize my odds of stopping the aggressor.

Seems like a backwards argument. If I'm going long, I'm going rifle caliber. Only reason I'm doing pistol caliber is b/c it's a 5" barrel

kc4sox:  "Think 9mm and add around 200 +/- fps. So around 357 mag performance ? I keep a Beretta CX4 Storm as my primary house gun. I do not feel under gunned."

Same here.  It is managable like a bullpup, 30 round mags, light, accurate.

I see your point but, for our household it just works better for my SO than a rifle caliber carbine. Everyone is comfortable and effective with the Storm. In the end a dead bad guy is a dead bad guy.

Barrel length is a key factor here, too. Muzzle energy isn't everything, but out a an 8" barrel, a 357Sig actually has more ME than a 556 out of an 8" barrel.  Plus, the 357 is above its velocity it is designed to expand, while the 223 is below it.  So, if short length is critical, and you want an SBR length suppressed, that is actually something to look at, once Sig delivers the MPX kit.

That said, I keep an 11" AR, because a 223 is more likely to tumble and lose energy if it goes through a wall, and is probably a better round for inside a home.

My only comment is this if 9mm couldn't perform it wouldn't be used so widely to this day. Look at how many agencies utilize the mp5 variants to this day in security escorts and so on.

I'd be curious to see when those MP5s were purchased. 1981?

There are many reasons 9mm SMG's are used. As for power, no problem. We did a simple test with some 9mm ammo. We had an old heavy water tank and we shot it with a 9mm hand gun. The ammo in the hand gun would dent the tank deeply but not penetrate. We put the exact same ammo in one of my PCC's with a 16 in barrel. It easily went right on through that same metal. No comparison in power, the PCC was clearly much more powerful than the hand gun with the same ammo.

At short range inside a building the 9mm will get the job done. Do a little research on how many armies have used the 9mm's in combat. As for using a 5.56mm inside a building, you should try that once at night in the dark. Just do it.

I have 100% confidence in a 9mm PCC for use inside against a threat. I have had people tell me its not powerful enough yet no one offered to stand in front of it and let me test it on them.

I think my Sig line addresses that
I want an immediate fight stopper. Adrenaline, PCP, pure hatred, etc can push humans to abnormal physical levels. I want to meet that with a superior "sledgehammer" and I think 110g suppressed Black tips is the answer.

If an immediate fight stopper is what you want then a 12 gauge is what you seek.

9mm SMGs and pistols have killed a lot of people over the years.

I wouldn't hesitate to use my Uzi SBR in a defensive situation. That, however, doesn't mean there aren't better options out there.

Mini-handgun-calibers < regular handgun calibers < magnum handgun calibers < intermediate rifle calibers < rifle calibers < magnum rifle calibers.

just a side comment not about terminal ballistics of a 9mm.... I've been shooting a 9mm PCC for USPSA for about 6 months now...for a person like myself with limited handgun skills, it so greatly improves the hit placement of the shot that it is a revelation... coupled with a dot scope with the reticle etched on the prism (like the Vortex Spitfire) that it gives a sight aiming point, even without the battery operational...it would shorten the learning curve exponentially for a new user  YMMV

I would like  to see some of the armorer's logs for some cia and so on MP5 variants that have been in service for long term. I love learning this kind of stuff.

I would not want to take you guys with those on either.

I was reading the one comment about using a 5.56 with an eleven inch barrel as a home defense weapon. Well, you really should shoot one of those in a very dark room once....really.

I don't know who will be more blinded..you or the person you are shooting at!

Yeah man, I did a self defense pistol course and part of it was in an indoor range with the lights dimmed to nearly nothing. It was an eye opening experience to say the least.

If you don't have a suppressor, being blind takes a huge backseat to your ears bleeding

Amen, Brother!

This... BUT ALSO:

Where are you intending to fight, and who? Use your brain to imagine what an engagement looks like, and you will lead yourself to the correct answer.

For most people, in most parts of the US, dealing with typical threats, a modern service pistol with a light checks the block. Done.

Now... what about self defense at 75m and BEYOND???

Yeah, OK... you're right... grab an AR. (But WTF is "self defense at 75m and Beyond?" )

What about Body Armor, PCP, weight lifters, suicide vests...

You can "what-if" anything to death.

^^^

+1


Anyway I'm selling all my guns and buying a m2 bmg for self defense and call it a day.

make sure you ensure the sale includes ear plugs.

9mm B&T SBR has a can. The extra 11.5" 5.56 SBR also has a can on it. It would be crazy loud and bright indoors. Even with a Sandman-S it's still loud but not instant loss of hearing. Flash is minimal to non with defense ammo.

I can't believe people are debating the power of a 9mm vs a 556 or 300BLK.

9mm is no where near as effective as 556 or 300BLK. PERIOD. Yes 9mm can kill people, but 5.56 has a better chance. Talk to anyone who has shot someone or seen gun shot wounds for a living and they will tell you a 5.56 Black Hills TMK out of a 10.3 barrel is far more effective than any 9mm out of any length barrel. 300BLK is even more intense.
Personally having seen 9mm JHP and 5.56 hits to the legs, torso, and arms of people, there is no way I would choose a 9mm over a rifle. Rifles are very powerful. I saw a guy shot in the leg with 9mm JHP +P and he looked at it, pulled his pants down, and then started freaking out. He did not lose his leg. I've seen that with 45 also.
If those were 5.56 I would be shocked if they kept their leg and they might have even died before reaching the hospital. On top of all this body armor is available to many people, making rifles better for all situations of defense.

I love my MPX and MP5 but there is a reason almost NO departments use them anymore. Subguns are a thing of the past. It will be hard for you to find anyone with experience who will say 9mm is as good as an SBR 556. Use whatever you want, and 9mm is definitely nothing to laugh at, but its not the best. Handguns are there so you can fight your way to your rifle. PCC is a big handgun.
The gun I shoot the most is the MPX, its so awesome, and great for jack rabbits and raccoons, but...my bedside gun is a suppressed 8" 300 BLK with 110 Barnes TAC-TX.

Yes, a rifle inside with a can is still loud, but in my experience I still use one because I feel the power is worth the noise. I keep ears next to my bed too and can put those on.

If you're going to use 9mm, at least use 124 +P gold dot or 147 HST. Don't use FMJ. I'm not sure about 16" barrel, but out of a ~9" barrel MP5 the 147 HST is about 1,130 fps, and the 124+P is about 1,300. Both good but again not rifle power.

What is this magical 556 cartridge that is less likely to penetrate walls than 9mm? I've just got my piston 11.5" AR pistol in service with a can and light and am considering it for some HD scenarios, but I want the right ammo. I was under the impression that even frangible V-Max would penetrate further than a 9mm HST2.

Hell even the "unreliable & underpowered " 30m1 served my father great in north Africa (FFL).

I have no problem trusting the 9mm.
Every caliber has its role..

The 556 for self defense just inside the house is way too much IMO..

I don't think you're going to win any "lethality" arguments of 9mm ball over 5.56, 7.62x39 or 300BO, but I don't think it's a grossly anemic choice for a PCC and home defense.  The value comes in smaller packages (pistol versions such as the MPX, CZ, etc.), more inherent accuracy potential than a handgun, easier to suppress and often easier for less experienced or petite shooters.  That last aspect is just my opinion based on my experiences and is very relative to the shooter.

Another aspect is cost of ammo.  I think you should always invest in quality SD ammo regardless of your choice of pistol, PCC, SBR or rifle, but training ammo is typically much cheaper for 9mm.  There's no question 9mm can't compete with a rifle round, but 9mm has as pretty substantial reputation for doing it's job if the shooter can accurately and quickly put rounds on target.  In fact, I would feel quite comfortable with my CZ Scorpion pistol/pseudo SBR with arm brace under just about every situation inside a 100 meters including home protection.  It won't penetrate as well as a rifle round at distance, but that's more an issue of tactics than focusing on overcoming barriers.  

ROCK6

LOL... oh, is that what they'll tell you? Does Black Hills cut a check for the endorsement?

If the question is math problem, then the answer is simple and non-debatable... which is why I quoted the ">->->" above.

I don't care if you're the #1 soul snatcher in ACE/ DEVGRU/ whatever... if you start slam tagging a dude in the primary lethal zone... of either the head OR the torso... with an MP5/ Colt SMG/ Scorpion/ whatever... they will curl up and die- quickly.

When your medulla gets tuned into hamburger meat, it's lights out. When your heart or aorta is perforated and pressure drops, it's lights out.

...and it doesn't matter if a dude will lose a leg from 5.56 or keep it when shot with 9mm- he'll change his damn name to "Peg-Leg-Pete" and be telling dudes in bars or around campfires about the night he smoked your ass for not making solid hits on target, quickly, until the fight is done.

double post

That's a lot of "Ifs".

Hey use whatever you want. Aim for the medulla lol. But after seeing my partner double tap a dude to the chest with a .40 and it took almost a minute for him to die and take that last big breath, I'll stick with 556.

There are TONS of reports of people taking handgun rounds to the chest and even head and still continuing to fight. There's a reason departments carry rifles and not MP5s.

Black hills TMK, hornady TAP, Speer Gold Dot, any of those I'd be happy with.

I'm sure 9mm is good for home defense in most situations. But 556 is better. Sorry, it is. And when it comes to stopping a fight you have a chance of stopping it faster with 556.
I agree 9mm is effective, but comparing it to 5.56, come on! Do some more research, PCC is not as effective as a rifle. Go down and ask your local SWAT officers and go to your local trauma center and ask some docs what they see and think. Not trying to argue with anyone, just giving some information to keep you safe. If you actually might be in a gun fight, you want something that has the highest chance of stopping a fight fast. If you want to use a 9mm, cool, but don't tell people that it's equal to a rifle.


OP: yes the right 9mm out of a PCC is a badass weapon and yes I'd be happy with it for home defense. But, it is not as powerful as a 556 or 7.62. Rifles are much more powerful. Relying on hitting the medulla is a terrible idea for defending your life.

Well the fact that pistol rounds arent as powerful as  rifle rounds is not a news.
Some leo are moving away from PCC because the threats they have to face have changed..

Anyway I'm a 556 fan and Its interesting to read how effective The 556 is in this thread but at The same time The web if full of discussions bashing The 556 and how the mil should replace it ASAP because they need more stopping power etc etc

I'm not sure what you're LOL-ing to me about, but if you're not aiming for either the primary lethal zone of the torso or the primary lethal zone of the head, then... where exactly on a human target are you aiming?
 


If you did witness this, then you probably already have more data than a lot of folks on the topic, and are closer to the answer than you think.

Did your partner have to continually hammer the target for 60 seconds? How long did he remain in the fight?

Probably if either of those bullets hit the heart or aorta, that target made the decision to curl up and die- quickly.

If just one (1) bullet hit the primary lethal zone in the head, he would have hit the ground deader than shit. I guarantee it.  

There is plenty of documented evidence of people living long and healthy lives after being shot by 5.56 or 7.62.

In fact... there are an absolutely shocking number of dudes walking around with GSW scars in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The Key takeaway- they were shot in non-lethal locations and extremities... so why would they curl up and die?



Don't feel sorry.

If you're not humping a radio, nods, body armor, and other gear though, why not bypass the intermediate calibers completely and go straight to a full power or magnum cartridge?

You're trying to debate the math problem of it, but you're arguing with yourself.

Maybe I was confusing in my rant. let me explain:
I'm not debating whether a 9mm or .40 will kill someone.
I was answering the OPs question of "will a 9 out of a longer barrel equal a 556 or 7.62" and the answer is NO. I am not saying 9mm isnt effective for home defense. I am happy with my MP5 next to the bed, but I am happier with my MK18.
Even a 147 HST going 1,400 fps is not going to match the explosive power of a good 556 round going over 2,300 fps. Calculated energy aside, looking at someone shot with 9mm is not as dramatic as someone shot with a Speer 64gr gold dot. Not too mention, some of these 9mm rounds when pushed to those speeds don't penetrate as far. Look how many people make it to the ED with handgun rounds to the center mass VS how many make it there with rifle rounds.
Again, use whatever you want, and yes 9mm is a good round, I carry a 9mm, but to the OP, no, a 16" barrel with 9mm will not equal a 556 or 762.
The ft/lbs and velocity cause more remote pressure changes in the aorta and brain, and have a higher chance of causing damage than actually trying to hit that vital organ. Trying to have your bullet travel through the brain stem is not as easy as you think. Even center mass the bullet can miss the heart by a centimeter, why not rely on a rifle that will damage more around it.

Here I did a quick google search and found this. I havent read it all but you can do a command F and search "rifle".
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

Again, yes 9mm PCC is effective, but, if I were going to bet my life on a 9mm out of any firearm vs a 556 out of an SBR, I would take the 556 every time.

"Penetration" is a difficult term, and I don't mean penetration straight into some sort of ballistic gel after exiting a barrel. Instead, what I was talking about is what energy it has after it has gone through a light intermediate barrier, in particular, typical double-drywall walls in your house.  In general, .223 will penetrate further into ballistics gel in the same room when compared to 9mm; but if hitting gel in the next room (after passing through drywall) it will penetrate less. This is ideal, as it reduces the likelihood of stray rounds killing third parties in adjacent rooms, while being more effective against threats in the same room.

Here is just one example of some testing that shows this.

In general, .223 is much faster and lighter, meaning it will generally get destabilized after going through the first wall, and then hopefully start to tumble and bleed energy. Of course, with terminal ballistics, nothing is guaranteed.

Personally, for HD, I use the Hornady TAP "Urban" branded ammo.

In an indoor scenario for personal defense, I think 9mm subgun or something similar is superior to SBR 5.56 for several reasons:

In Afghanistan, 5.56 would often blow right through the thin afgan fighters without yawing or tumbling much at all, making unimpressive exit wounds that often did not stop the threat.  Now, of course this is m588, not hollowpoint, and that certainly matters.  Much of the muzzle energy was wasted in these close range engagements, and over penetration is definitely an issue.  (we were shooting iron railroad spike plates with american eagle 5.56 and some of the rounds completely penetrated.)  Rifle caliber PDWs are always an exercise in compromise.  They are extremely loud in a confined space (think flash bang levels of loudness)  and without a suppressor, I think a follow up shot is extremely difficult to execute accurately.  You will be blind and your bell will be rung from the concussion / noise, so your first shot better be all you need.  In my opinion, 5.56 is a ridiculous choice for home defense.  Now, shooting a pig with hollowpoint ammo can create a fist sized exit wound at 50 yards out of an m4, so your ammo choice matters, but we achieved great results with 9mm out of a m-9 with "defensive ammo" at 25 yards as well.

part 2

a 9mm PCC  has less recoil, less flash, less noise, and is more controllable overall.  It is usually both shorter and lighter than a short barreled AR as well.  Some agencies like the FBI are coming back to 9mm as their go to caliber.  a PCC is easier to shoot well than a pistol is.  more points of contact, less sensitive to bad trigger pulls, more optics friendly.  My wife is not an experienced shooter, and she's not so hot with a 9mm glock yet, but the first time she shot my FN PS90 she cut the center out of the target at 25 yards.  It's still her favorite gun to shoot.  It's ergonomically perfect for about everyone, there's no weight out front, recoil is minimal noise is not bad, it does what it's designed to do very well. (trigger sucks, however)  What's my point?  

A common complaint in battle reports from Afghanistan is that 5.56 was not getting the job done.  Having fired a lot of rounds through m-16 and m-4 variants myself (27 years army and combat vet, as well as battallion PA)  Their "DOC" in the hot zone, I'm not a fan of 5.56 or the m-16.  Now, if we used a different bullet, i think the wound capacity would be there.  Compare it with the AK-74, which makes a hell of a wound with a comparable caliber and casing size.

Try this:

Take one of each out on a dark night, put a pie plate at 25 yards, have someone run a stopwatch and time you.  now stand beside a wall or another confined space, wear some foam ear plugs to take the edge off (it won't be enough)  BE SURE YOU WEAR EYEPRO  And put 5 rounds on the target as fast as you can with each of the three platforms.  This will tell you what you need to know.

The biggest reason you see LEO and military using AR-15s as entry guns is the budget.  it's much cheaper to press one tool into multiple roles than to buy into multiple platforms.  Also, training is easier.

I don't think anyone would argue that 5.56 isn't more powerful than 9mm, it certainly is.   More powerful does not automatically mean better for a particular application, however.  I'd aslo second the notion that a few more inches of barrel translates to a lot more velocity (though I have not researched this personally, you can definitely see this at the range)

Ok, I looked it up.  115grain federal JHP
1295 FPS out of a 16" barrel yielding  425 lb/ft of muzzle energy
1094 FPS out of a 4" barrel yielding    300 lb/ft of muzzle energy  that's 30% more muzzle energy.  that's a LOT more punch.  

I looked at several other 9mm rounds as well, and the differences were similar, around 200 fps increase with a 16" barrel and about a 30% increase in muzzle energy as compared to a 4" barrel.

Size definitely matters gentleman.

Nice numbers. I was simple in my post earlier....the 9mm ammo in the pistol dented the steel tank, the carbine with the same bullet easily penetrated it. Heck, it was more fun to shoot up that water heater tank than it was reading a bunch of  boring numbers.  (Kidding of course, but actually it was more fun shooting up that tank!)

Its more punch but still nothing close to a 556. Plus, 425ft/lbs is still less than a 40sw.
A 556 out of a 10" barrel is over 1,000 ft/lbs. And considering tests show you need at least 600 ft/lbs to cause damage in different areas of the body through change in aortic pressure and brain pressure, its still not even close to a rifle. Sorry but even the best 9mm out of an MP5 (say T-series 127+P+ going 1,350 FPS yielding over 500ft/lbs) is still much less than a 556. Not too mention there's more to it than energy.

I understand some of your comments and I agree 556 isnt perfect in some configurations, but I am assuming proper set ups here at home. I also agree a non suppressed 14.5" 556 would not be fun to clear houses with especially with bad ammo. But here at home, good expanding ammo, 10" barrel, suppressed....
A suppressed 10" AR is shorter than my suppressed MP5. A lot of subguns arent really all that small, and the OP was talking about a PCC with 16" barrel.
In terms of departments not using subguns, its more to do with effectiveness than budget. I know budget is important, but lots of departments have MP5s and UMPs but don't use them. Even the UMP .40 has had issues stopping guys that the 556 put down. When talking suppressed, the length of the SBRd MP5/MPX/UMP are all longer than an 8" 300 BLK and about the same length as a 10" 556. If you can buying anything you want, its lighter and shorter to buy a rifle than a subgun anyway. A 9" BCM 300 BLK with Omega is lighter, more maneuverable, and shorter than an MP5 with Raptor or Multimount. A 10.3" 556 with Gemtech Trek-T is also lighter and shorter than most subguns with 8-9" barrels. So you are sacrificing rifle power for something that is the same size package if not bigger/heavier. Sure you can get a 4" barrel subgun, but again you're back to having a huge handgun. A 16" 9mm really makes the least sense of all. The only advantage to a 9mm subgun is trying to be small and nice suppressed.

Again, I'm not saying a PCC is bad, but the best PCC with the best 9mm ammo is still not as powerful as a SBR 10" AR. There is no way that a 9mm can compare in power to the right 556.

OP, yes 9mm is badass, no it is not as badass as 556. Especially out of the same size package/barrel.
Hornady TAP, BH 77 TMK, Speer gold dot, MSR 62gr... all better options out of an SBR than any 9mm.

Your points about noise I agree, rifles are loud. I think an advantage to the subgun is using 147 subs with a can, for sure, thats nice and can be a short package. I often think about keeping the suppressed MP5 next to my bed for that reason, but in the end always go back to BLK because I think its worth a little more noise.
Recoil, I think is pretty light in a 556 but that's personal I guess. In semi, follow up shots with my MPX are only a hair quicker than my MK18. I guess for women a suppressed MPX SBRmight be the best HD gun. All personal on that level though.


Heres a thread about the 77 TMK, I don't think any 9mm could be as good as this round. AND NO I HAVE NO AFFILIATION WITH BLACK HILLS.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/655722_-ARCHIVED-THREAD----Black-Hills-5-56-77gr-TMK-------Tipped-Match-King-------Reloading-Bullets-available-at-Sierra--.html&page=4

I'd like to see some gel test of 147/+ HST out of a 16 inch barrel. I plan on getting a evo carbine and using as my bedside gun.

Most 9mm tops out in the 9-10" barrel. Anytime I've tested a few 9mm loads from 16" they were the same and or a few fps slower than my EVO SBR. Would you guys be interested in seeing 147gr HST +P in gel from the EVO?

Yes Id like to see it.

And yes I agree I think a 9mm barrel past 10" is just wasted length.