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Posted: 4/24/2016 3:20:54 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
For me in no particular order... 1) Light weight 2) Quick change calibers 3) Ability to easily SBR 4) US made so I don't have to mess with 922r 5) Ambi controls 6) Reputable manufacture 7) Inexpensive, normal capacity magazines 8) Factory threaded barrels for suppressor use 9) Takes AR parts for customization 10) Good shootability/recoil impulse I've got everything covered but quick caliber changes and reputable manufacturer 
Sounds like you want a TNW ASR / ASP. |
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Posted: 4/24/2016 3:32:10 PM EDT
[#2]
Interesting, but boy is that an ugly gun. Not truly ambi. Does it have a bolt hold open?
http://www.tnwfirearms.com/product-p/asrx-cplt-9445-xxxx-xxxx.htm 
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Posted: 4/24/2016 4:54:22 PM EDT
[#3]
Also designed with suppression in mind. Low blowback, machined clearances for carbon buildup.
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Posted: 4/24/2016 4:55:16 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting, but boy is that an ugly gun. Not truly ambi. Does it have a bolt hold open? http://www.tnwfirearms.com/product-p/asrx-cplt-9445-xxxx-xxxx.htm http://www.tnwfirearms.com/v/vspfiles/photos/ASRX-CPLT-XXXX-XXXX-XXXX-3T.jpg It has a manual one, as in you can lock the bolt open yourself but it doesn't hold open after the last round. |
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Posted: 4/24/2016 5:35:21 PM EDT
[#5]
Except for 1, 7 and maybe 6....MPX meets a bunch of items in your list. Other than the gas blowback from the gaps in the charging handle area the MPX with AR accessories(trigger/selector/grip) is really cool.
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Posted: 4/24/2016 5:44:21 PM EDT
[#6]
The ideal carbine would not be straight blowback. Too much recoil for a low power round.
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Posted: 4/24/2016 6:32:49 PM EDT
[#7]
20 and 40rnd mags. 30 is designed around the AR platform
Designed for suppressor use Ease addition of a stock - A2 fixed, side folder like B&T, and collapsible like A3(?) 1/2x28 and 3 lug factory options Ambi selector Correct size charging handle. Looking at you, Evo |
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Posted: 4/24/2016 7:18:17 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
20 and 40rnd mags. 30 is designed around the AR platform Designed for suppressor use Ease addition of a stock - A2 fixed, side folder like B&T, and collapsible like A3(?) 1/2x28 and 3 lug factory options Ambi selector Correct size charging handle. Looking at you, Evo Tell that to the M-3 Grease Gun. |
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Posted: 4/24/2016 7:23:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
For me in no particular order... 1) Light weight ... but not so light that recoil is more pronounced and it "feels like a toy." 2) Quick change calibers Not essential for me, but a nice option to have. 3) Ability to easily SBR Amen. 4) US made so I don't have to mess with 922r Preferable, but not a must IMO as long as appropriate US replacement/upgrade parts are available. 5) Ambi controls I'd prefer reversible controls; many truly ambi designs end up getting in the way of normal (right-handed) use in some way (e.g., the factory EVO safety). 6) Reputable manufacture Depends upon what you consider "reputable." 7) Inexpensive, normal capacity magazines Preferably mags that are already established, reliable, and readily available -- existing pistol or sub-gun mags. 8) Factory threaded barrels for suppressor use Amen. 9) Takes AR parts for customization Again, not something I would insist upon, personally. There are pros and cons there. 10) Good shootability/recoil impulse Yep. RED is mine, and JMHO. |
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Posted: 4/24/2016 7:28:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
For me in no particular order... 1) Light weight 2) Quick change calibers 3) Ability to easily SBR 4) US made so I don't have to mess with 922r 5) Ambi controls 6) Reputable manufacture 7) Inexpensive, normal capacity magazines 8) Factory threaded barrels for suppressor use 9) Takes AR parts for customization 10) Good shootability/recoil impulse Augment #7 to Glock magazines and you have a winner. |
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Posted: 4/24/2016 7:31:01 PM EDT
[#11]
And just encase it didn't come though well in my first response. FUCK AMBI BULL SHIT!
Make it available for the lefties, yea ok. But I don't want that shit on my factory gun! 
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Posted: 4/25/2016 2:57:12 AM EDT
[#12]
Basically a scorpion that took AR grips and had a quick change bbl system.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/25/2016 4:50:01 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ideal carbine would not be straight blowback. Too much recoil for a low power round. That depends. A properly designed bolt that does not bottom out will have a nicer recoil impulse. Also bolt that telescopes over the barrel will give a more direct to the rear impulse with less muzzle rise. |
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Posted: 4/25/2016 4:54:48 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Augment #7 to Glock magazines and you have a winner. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
For me in no particular order... 1) Light weight 2) Quick change calibers 3) Ability to easily SBR 4) US made so I don't have to mess with 922r 5) Ambi controls 6) Reputable manufacture 7) Inexpensive, normal capacity magazines 8) Factory threaded barrels for suppressor use 9) Takes AR parts for customization 10) Good shootability/recoil impulse Augment #7 to Glock magazines and you have a winner. I like Glock mags, but they are double stack/single feed and you can't use a rapid loader with those (unlike Uzi or MP5 mags). Also, the angle just looks weird and I think a straight mag well lends itself to easier reloads. As PCC's become more popular and IDPA type matches start to allow them, we will see more attention paid to ergonomics. |
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Posted: 4/25/2016 7:23:22 AM EDT
[#15]
KRISS vector has all except 5 and 9.
Controls set up for right handed use makes left handed use extremely difficult--especially the BHO and release. Every new gun should be ambi--and modular in nature to accommodate for right handed shooters' inability to adapt to universal designs. 
Kriss does not take AR parts--which is fine by me. |
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Posted: 4/25/2016 11:44:08 AM EDT
[#16]
A handgun-caliber carbine I'd love to see - but know will never make it mass-market wise because it's seen as an old-fart caliber - would be a box-fed semiauto in .357magnum; very similar to an M1 carbine in size and threaded for suppressor use. Being that the OAL for .357 mag is just slightly (less than 1/16") shorter than the .30 carbine round, it could probably even be made to use milsurp .30 carbine magazines if the feed angle and cartridge-rim issues were addressed. A 16" threaded barrel, with an option for a 10" or so threaded barrel; especially a quick-change option between barrels, would be great. A short-stroke piston action (again, similar to the M1 carbine) would take advantage of the .357's pressure, keep the action cleaner than an AR-style DI system, and keep recoil ridiculously low.
It would make a phenomenal truck gun, a handy hunting carbine for anything up to whitetail-deer size game (140-grain bullet at 2,000 fps from the 16"), a great police patrol carbine, a good bedroom defensive weapon, a neat farm gun on the four-wheeler, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
1) Light weight 2) Quick change calibers Give me one that runs reliably with .357 magnum (.38spl would be a great bonus if doable), and I wouldn't need another caliber in this type of gun. 3) Ability to easily SBR 4) US made so I don't have to mess with 922r It'd be nice for it to be US made, just for the sake of being US made; conformance requirements aside. 5) Ambi controls Agree with HardShell; most of the time I'd rather have reversible than truly ambi. 6) Reputable manufacture I'd buy a couple even if it was from Citadel or KelTec or whoever. 7) Inexpensive, normal capacity magazines 8) Factory threaded barrels for suppressor use 9) Takes AR parts for customization 10) Good shootability/recoil impulse |
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Posted: 4/25/2016 1:30:26 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
For me in no particular order... 1) Light weight 2) Quick change calibers 3) Ability to easily SBR 4) US made so I don't have to mess with 922r 5) Ambi controls 6) Reputable manufacture 7) Inexpensive, normal capacity magazines 8) Factory threaded barrels for suppressor use 9) Takes AR parts for customization 10) Good shootability/recoil impulse 11) Folding stock Needs to be compact. I want something modern that's MP5K size. The new LWRC offering is close, but it appears substantially larger than a MP5K. |
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Posted: 4/25/2016 2:50:16 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ideal carbine would not be straight blowback. Too much recoil for a low power round. That was my main problem with the Beretta Storm Carbine and most PCC for that matter. I had a Storm for 3 weeks and sold it. I hated it. People ask me why and I say "the recoil was too heavy" and they look at me like "What kind of little girl are you." but what I mean isn't that it was some unmanagable recoil monster but I got it thinking it's 9mm so the recoil should be non-existant and instead it kicked as hard as an AK-47. I got it thinking it would be better for a house gun because it's tiny and light and in 9mm it should be easy to unload in a bad guy but after shootin git a lot I was like ok so it has more recoil than a rifle round so why not just use a rifle? So I sold it. I am eager to get a CZ Scorpion carbine but I'm worried it's going to be the same story, ie fun but recoil harder than I want it to. If it recoils more than a AR in 556 then I see no advantage to having a PCC at all. |
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Posted: 4/25/2016 3:28:08 PM EDT
[#19]
1 - AR lower
2 - side folding bbl upper (looking @ YOU, SUB-2000) 3 - Glock magblock (WNG TripleCatch is non-responsive) that takes 10 round G26 mags. 4 - 1911 magblock that takes 1911 mags 5 - magblock activated LRBHO 6 - adjustable short-stroke piston OR HK compatible roller-delayed blowback, adapatable to suppression 7 - all recoil springs in the upper, not in buffer tube for folding stock 8 - standard AR bbl nut 9 - standard AR rail height 10 - cheaper than current Uzi mag AR build |
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Posted: 4/25/2016 3:38:22 PM EDT
[#20]
Modular/replaceable magwell kinda like the 805 Bren or G36 or even the MGI hydra to an extent. Change from MP5 mags to colt, sten, Evo, whatever.
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Posted: 4/25/2016 5:42:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
For me in no particular order... 1) Light weight 2) Quick change calibers 3) Ability to easily SBR 4) US made so I don't have to mess with 922r 5) Ambi controls 6) Reputable manufacture 7) Inexpensive, normal capacity magazines 8) Factory threaded barrels for suppressor use 9) Takes AR parts for customization 10) Good shootability/recoil impulse You forgot 11) select fire. 
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Posted: 4/25/2016 5:46:17 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You forgot 11) select fire. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
For me in no particular order... 1) Light weight 2) Quick change calibers 3) Ability to easily SBR 4) US made so I don't have to mess with 922r 5) Ambi controls 6) Reputable manufacture 7) Inexpensive, normal capacity magazines 8) Factory threaded barrels for suppressor use 9) Takes AR parts for customization 10) Good shootability/recoil impulse You forgot 11) select fire. Of course! How silly of me! |
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Posted: 4/25/2016 10:47:36 PM EDT
[#23]
Wow.....a lot of hate for lefties.
1) Light weight 2) Quick change calibers 3) Ability to easily SBR 4) US made so I don't have to mess with 922r 5) Ambi controls 6) Reputable manufacture 7) Inexpensive, normal capacity magazines 8) Factory threaded barrels for suppressor use 9) Takes AR parts for customization 10) Good shootability/recoil impulse I have a Beretta Storm in 9mm. For me it fits the requirements of 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, and 10. That's all I need. Have you checked the lowers made by Lone Wolf and JP that take Glock mags? You can pretty much customize what you want starting from the lower. |
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Posted: 4/26/2016 8:25:24 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That was my main problem with the Beretta Storm Carbine and most PCC for that matter. I had a Storm for 3 weeks and sold it. I hated it. People ask me why and I say "the recoil was too heavy" and they look at me like "What kind of little girl are you." but what I mean isn't that it was some unmanagable recoil monster but I got it thinking it's 9mm so the recoil should be non-existant and instead it kicked as hard as an AK-47. I got it thinking it would be better for a house gun because it's tiny and light and in 9mm it should be easy to unload in a bad guy but after shootin git a lot I was like ok so it has more recoil than a rifle round so why not just use a rifle? So I sold it. I am eager to get a CZ Scorpion carbine but I'm worried it's going to be the same story, ie fun but recoil harder than I want it to. If it recoils more than a AR in 556 then I see no advantage to having a PCC at all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The ideal carbine would not be straight blowback. Too much recoil for a low power round. That was my main problem with the Beretta Storm Carbine and most PCC for that matter. I had a Storm for 3 weeks and sold it. I hated it. People ask me why and I say "the recoil was too heavy" and they look at me like "What kind of little girl are you." but what I mean isn't that it was some unmanagable recoil monster but I got it thinking it's 9mm so the recoil should be non-existant and instead it kicked as hard as an AK-47. I got it thinking it would be better for a house gun because it's tiny and light and in 9mm it should be easy to unload in a bad guy but after shootin git a lot I was like ok so it has more recoil than a rifle round so why not just use a rifle? So I sold it. I am eager to get a CZ Scorpion carbine but I'm worried it's going to be the same story, ie fun but recoil harder than I want it to. If it recoils more than a AR in 556 then I see no advantage to having a PCC at all. Thanks for manning up. I had the exact same problem with the majority of PCC on the market, and I'm glad to see I was not the only one. Pronounced recoil and excessive face slap regardless of stance. |
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Posted: 4/26/2016 11:11:39 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks for manning up. I had the exact same problem with the majority of PCC on the market, and I'm glad to see I was not the only one. Pronounced recoil and excessive face slap regardless of stance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The ideal carbine would not be straight blowback. Too much recoil for a low power round. That was my main problem with the Beretta Storm Carbine and most PCC for that matter. I had a Storm for 3 weeks and sold it. I hated it. People ask me why and I say "the recoil was too heavy" and they look at me like "What kind of little girl are you." but what I mean isn't that it was some unmanagable recoil monster but I got it thinking it's 9mm so the recoil should be non-existant and instead it kicked as hard as an AK-47. I got it thinking it would be better for a house gun because it's tiny and light and in 9mm it should be easy to unload in a bad guy but after shootin git a lot I was like ok so it has more recoil than a rifle round so why not just use a rifle? So I sold it. I am eager to get a CZ Scorpion carbine but I'm worried it's going to be the same story, ie fun but recoil harder than I want it to. If it recoils more than a AR in 556 then I see no advantage to having a PCC at all. Thanks for manning up. I had the exact same problem with the majority of PCC on the market, and I'm glad to see I was not the only one. Pronounced recoil and excessive face slap regardless of stance. I just didn't get it. I was there at the range thinking "More recoil than a rifle plus weaker round than a rifle round... where's the upside? Cheaper ammo? 7.62x39 is pretty cheap I should just get an AK." That's why my HD longarm of choice is a Tavor. 556/223 in a 27" package with a reasonable trigger and lighter recoil than a CX4 Storm. The only reason I'm looking at PCCs now is I want a gun for USPSA PCC division because it looks fun. Right now I'm leaning towards the Scorpion but I really want to shoot one because if the recoil is as much as the Storm I'd have to seriously consider the more expensive and supposedly not as reliable Sig MPX because gas operated 9mm should have almost no recoil. |
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Posted: 4/26/2016 8:40:03 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only reason I'm looking at PCCs now is I want a gun for USPSA PCC division because it looks fun. Right now I'm leaning towards the Scorpion but I really want to shoot one because if the recoil is as much as the Storm I'd have to seriously consider the more expensive and supposedly not as reliable Sig MPX because gas operated 9mm should have almost no recoil. Interesting that an open bolt (blowback) gun feels so much softer than a similar or same closed bolt gun. I've got both open and closed bolt setups for my Uzi, and the open bolt gun feels drastically softer than the same gun with a closed bolt. There must be something to that "advanced primer ignition" thing. Too bad we can't go and build some new open bolt designs. I'll probably shoot PCC with one of the open bolt subguns. Or maybe the Reising, just to be different.
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Posted: 4/27/2016 1:38:45 AM EDT
[#27]
I always wanted a semi-auto carbine in 357 but also be able to use 38 special but I wouldn't spend a whole lot on it because it would mainly be just a fun gun but a pretty effective fun gun.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A handgun-caliber carbine I'd love to see - but know will never make it mass-market wise because it's seen as an old-fart caliber - would be a box-fed semiauto in .357magnum; very similar to an M1 carbine in size and threaded for suppressor use. Being that the OAL for .357 mag is just slightly (less than 1/16") shorter than the .30 carbine round, it could probably even be made to use milsurp .30 carbine magazines if the feed angle and cartridge-rim issues were addressed. A 16" threaded barrel, with an option for a 10" or so threaded barrel; especially a quick-change option between barrels, would be great. A short-stroke piston action (again, similar to the M1 carbine) would take advantage of the .357's pressure, keep the action cleaner than an AR-style DI system, and keep recoil ridiculously low. It would make a phenomenal truck gun, a handy hunting carbine for anything up to whitetail-deer size game (140-grain bullet at 2,000 fps from the 16"), a great police patrol carbine, a good bedroom defensive weapon, a neat farm gun on the four-wheeler, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
A handgun-caliber carbine I'd love to see - but know will never make it mass-market wise because it's seen as an old-fart caliber - would be a box-fed semiauto in .357magnum; very similar to an M1 carbine in size and threaded for suppressor use. Being that the OAL for .357 mag is just slightly (less than 1/16") shorter than the .30 carbine round, it could probably even be made to use milsurp .30 carbine magazines if the feed angle and cartridge-rim issues were addressed. A 16" threaded barrel, with an option for a 10" or so threaded barrel; especially a quick-change option between barrels, would be great. A short-stroke piston action (again, similar to the M1 carbine) would take advantage of the .357's pressure, keep the action cleaner than an AR-style DI system, and keep recoil ridiculously low. It would make a phenomenal truck gun, a handy hunting carbine for anything up to whitetail-deer size game (140-grain bullet at 2,000 fps from the 16"), a great police patrol carbine, a good bedroom defensive weapon, a neat farm gun on the four-wheeler, etc. Quoted:
1) Light weight 2) Quick change calibers Give me one that runs reliably with .357 magnum (.38spl would be a great bonus if doable), and I wouldn't need another caliber in this type of gun. 3) Ability to easily SBR 4) US made so I don't have to mess with 922r It'd be nice for it to be US made, just for the sake of being US made; conformance requirements aside. 5) Ambi controls Agree with HardShell; most of the time I'd rather have reversible than truly ambi. 6) Reputable manufacture I'd buy a couple even if it was from Citadel or KelTec or whoever. 7) Inexpensive, normal capacity magazines 8) Factory threaded barrels for suppressor use 9) Takes AR parts for customization 10) Good shootability/recoil impulse |
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Posted: 4/27/2016 2:13:03 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just didn't get it. I was there at the range thinking "More recoil than a rifle plus weaker round than a rifle round... where's the upside? Cheaper ammo? 7.62x39 is pretty cheap I should just get an AK." That's why my HD longarm of choice is a Tavor. 556/223 in a 27" package with a reasonable trigger and lighter recoil than a CX4 Storm. The only reason I'm looking at PCCs now is I want a gun for USPSA PCC division because it looks fun. Right now I'm leaning towards the Scorpion but I really want to shoot one because if the recoil is as much as the Storm I'd have to seriously consider the more expensive and supposedly not as reliable Sig MPX because gas operated 9mm should have almost no recoil. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The ideal carbine would not be straight blowback. Too much recoil for a low power round. That was my main problem with the Beretta Storm Carbine and most PCC for that matter. I had a Storm for 3 weeks and sold it. I hated it. People ask me why and I say "the recoil was too heavy" and they look at me like "What kind of little girl are you." but what I mean isn't that it was some unmanagable recoil monster but I got it thinking it's 9mm so the recoil should be non-existant and instead it kicked as hard as an AK-47. I got it thinking it would be better for a house gun because it's tiny and light and in 9mm it should be easy to unload in a bad guy but after shootin git a lot I was like ok so it has more recoil than a rifle round so why not just use a rifle? So I sold it. I am eager to get a CZ Scorpion carbine but I'm worried it's going to be the same story, ie fun but recoil harder than I want it to. If it recoils more than a AR in 556 then I see no advantage to having a PCC at all. Thanks for manning up. I had the exact same problem with the majority of PCC on the market, and I'm glad to see I was not the only one. Pronounced recoil and excessive face slap regardless of stance. I just didn't get it. I was there at the range thinking "More recoil than a rifle plus weaker round than a rifle round... where's the upside? Cheaper ammo? 7.62x39 is pretty cheap I should just get an AK." That's why my HD longarm of choice is a Tavor. 556/223 in a 27" package with a reasonable trigger and lighter recoil than a CX4 Storm. The only reason I'm looking at PCCs now is I want a gun for USPSA PCC division because it looks fun. Right now I'm leaning towards the Scorpion but I really want to shoot one because if the recoil is as much as the Storm I'd have to seriously consider the more expensive and supposedly not as reliable Sig MPX because gas operated 9mm should have almost no recoil. I have had a sub 2000 and I currently have a SBRed scorpion. I know exactly what you mean with the recoil. My scorpion recoil just as hard if not a tad bit harder than any of my ARs. I shoot a lot of 3 gun so I have looked at my splits with an AR and with a scorpion. The splits with an AR are much quicker. At least for me the advantage of the PCC is that it can be suppressed to hearing safe levels with subsonic ammo, you can go with a very short barrel and not lose velocity like you do with an AR, and they are just fun. |
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Posted: 4/27/2016 11:21:29 AM EDT
[#29]
I love the handling of my 9mm Kriss Vector, it's fantastic trigger, and how it uses the ever prevalent Glock magazines. However it is not all that reliable and the ergos leave quite a bit to be desired.
My Scorpion is super reliable, but it has a sharper recoil, has a worse (but not terrible) trigger, and I do not trust the magazines for it at all. I've had 4 split over the past year and a half. My PS90 is just about perfect. It has super soft recoil so I stay on target easily, a nice trigger, and huge magazine capacity, but it doesn't use a super 'common' pistol round and I can't really suppress it that easily. It has also never jammed or given me any sort of problem. Give me a PS90 in 9mm that works reliably and that I can easily run suppressed when I want and I will be happier than a tornado in a trailer park. |
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Posted: 4/27/2016 11:24:06 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.... Give me a PS90 in 9mm that works reliably and that I can easily run suppressed when I want and I will be happier than a tornado in a trailer park. Yes, please. Two, even. |
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Posted: 4/27/2016 4:49:15 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, please. Two, even. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.... Give me a PS90 in 9mm that works reliably and that I can easily run suppressed when I want and I will be happier than a tornado in a trailer park. Yes, please. Two, even. Put me in line |
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Posted: 4/27/2016 9:14:38 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Put me in line Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.... Give me a PS90 in 9mm that works reliably and that I can easily run suppressed when I want and I will be happier than a tornado in a trailer park. Yes, please. Two, even. Put me in line I was going to say, make it a bullpup. This is a good start. |
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Posted: 4/27/2016 9:52:38 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was going to say, make it a bullpup. This is a good start. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.... Give me a PS90 in 9mm that works reliably and that I can easily run suppressed when I want and I will be happier than a tornado in a trailer park. Yes, please. Two, even. Put me in line I was going to say, make it a bullpup. This is a good start. Make it roller locked, and we'd really have something! |
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Posted: 4/28/2016 11:00:40 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting that an open bolt (blowback) gun feels so much softer than a similar or same closed bolt gun. I've got both open and closed bolt setups for my Uzi, and the open bolt gun feels drastically softer than the same gun with a closed bolt. There must be something to that "advanced primer ignition" thing. Too bad we can't go and build some new open bolt designs. I'll probably shoot PCC with one of the open bolt subguns. Or maybe the Reising, just to be different. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The only reason I'm looking at PCCs now is I want a gun for USPSA PCC division because it looks fun. Right now I'm leaning towards the Scorpion but I really want to shoot one because if the recoil is as much as the Storm I'd have to seriously consider the more expensive and supposedly not as reliable Sig MPX because gas operated 9mm should have almost no recoil. Interesting that an open bolt (blowback) gun feels so much softer than a similar or same closed bolt gun. I've got both open and closed bolt setups for my Uzi, and the open bolt gun feels drastically softer than the same gun with a closed bolt. There must be something to that "advanced primer ignition" thing. Too bad we can't go and build some new open bolt designs. I'll probably shoot PCC with one of the open bolt subguns. Or maybe the Reising, just to be different. Have you not fired an MP5? It's like shooting a stick of butter compared to the CZ, Sig, or any other gun for that matter. |
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Posted: 4/28/2016 11:28:59 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have had a sub 2000 and I currently have a SBRed scorpion. I know exactly what you mean with the recoil. My scorpion recoil just as hard if not a tad bit harder than any of my ARs. I shoot a lot of 3 gun so I have looked at my splits with an AR and with a scorpion. The splits with an AR are much quicker. At least for me the advantage of the PCC is that it can be suppressed to hearing safe levels with subsonic ammo, you can go with a very short barrel and not lose velocity like you do with an AR, and they are just fun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The ideal carbine would not be straight blowback. Too much recoil for a low power round. That was my main problem with the Beretta Storm Carbine and most PCC for that matter. I had a Storm for 3 weeks and sold it. I hated it. People ask me why and I say "the recoil was too heavy" and they look at me like "What kind of little girl are you." but what I mean isn't that it was some unmanagable recoil monster but I got it thinking it's 9mm so the recoil should be non-existant and instead it kicked as hard as an AK-47. I got it thinking it would be better for a house gun because it's tiny and light and in 9mm it should be easy to unload in a bad guy but after shootin git a lot I was like ok so it has more recoil than a rifle round so why not just use a rifle? So I sold it. I am eager to get a CZ Scorpion carbine but I'm worried it's going to be the same story, ie fun but recoil harder than I want it to. If it recoils more than a AR in 556 then I see no advantage to having a PCC at all. Thanks for manning up. I had the exact same problem with the majority of PCC on the market, and I'm glad to see I was not the only one. Pronounced recoil and excessive face slap regardless of stance. I just didn't get it. I was there at the range thinking "More recoil than a rifle plus weaker round than a rifle round... where's the upside? Cheaper ammo? 7.62x39 is pretty cheap I should just get an AK." That's why my HD longarm of choice is a Tavor. 556/223 in a 27" package with a reasonable trigger and lighter recoil than a CX4 Storm. The only reason I'm looking at PCCs now is I want a gun for USPSA PCC division because it looks fun. Right now I'm leaning towards the Scorpion but I really want to shoot one because if the recoil is as much as the Storm I'd have to seriously consider the more expensive and supposedly not as reliable Sig MPX because gas operated 9mm should have almost no recoil. I have had a sub 2000 and I currently have a SBRed scorpion. I know exactly what you mean with the recoil. My scorpion recoil just as hard if not a tad bit harder than any of my ARs. I shoot a lot of 3 gun so I have looked at my splits with an AR and with a scorpion. The splits with an AR are much quicker. At least for me the advantage of the PCC is that it can be suppressed to hearing safe levels with subsonic ammo, you can go with a very short barrel and not lose velocity like you do with an AR, and they are just fun. That is what I feared and makes my hard on for the Scorpion fade quicker a free donut at a walmart. |
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Posted: 4/28/2016 4:51:17 PM EDT
[#36]
Quick change calibers is a feature everyone asks for and no one ever uses.
"Look, I can quickly change to .40" 
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Posted: 4/29/2016 12:40:10 AM EDT
[#37]
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Quick change calibers is a feature everyone asks for and no one ever uses. "Look, I can quickly change to .40" 100% agreed |
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Posted: 4/30/2016 2:37:56 AM EDT
[#38]
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100% agreed Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quick change calibers is a feature everyone asks for and no one ever uses. "Look, I can quickly change to .40" 100% agreed I third this. Same with any quick change gun. It's a good idea for military and police agencies I guess? Maybe? Perhaps in some countries where owning more than one gun is a pain in the ass. But here in America the caliber conversions are often so expensive that you're better off buying another gun anyway. Like the 9mm conversion kit for the Tavor is $800. As much as I want a bullpup 9mm for $800 I'm close to a Scorpion carbine so my brain goes "One gun with a bunch of parts in a box or Two whole guns? Two holes guns of course." |
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Posted: 4/30/2016 12:34:57 PM EDT
[#39]
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For me in no particular order... 1) Light weight 2) Quick change calibers 3) Ability to easily SBR 4) US made so I don't have to mess with 922r 5) Ambi controls 6) Reputable manufacture 7) Inexpensive, normal capacity magazines 8) Factory threaded barrels for suppressor use 9) Takes AR parts for customization 10) Good shootability/recoil impulse Yes. Also, the availability of different length uppers and barrels to facilitate easy SBRing. Bull barrel option would be nice or a permanently attached flash hider to keep the barrel exactly at the SBR minimum length (like 16.1"). |
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Posted: 4/30/2016 12:54:29 PM EDT
[#40]
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And just encase it didn't come though well in my first response. FUCK AMBI BULL SHIT! Make it available for the lefties, yea ok. But I don't want that shit on my factory gun! I only ask because I honestly don't know... how exactly does an ambi selector effect your shooting? |
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Posted: 4/30/2016 9:51:56 PM EDT
[#41]
1) Easy to SBR
2) Takes AR FCG and pre-existing mags with BHO (Colt 9mm mags or Sig, or Scorpion) 3) Takes 9mm AR Barrels and easy to swap barrels 4) Delayed roller lock operating system with no receiver extension/buffer tube '5) Relatively light weight 6) Ambi controls |
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Posted: 5/1/2016 2:49:01 AM EDT
[#42]
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I only ask because I honestly don't know... how exactly does an ambi selector effect your shooting? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: And just encase it didn't come though well in my first response. FUCK AMBI BULL SHIT!
Make it available for the lefties, yea ok. But I don't want that shit on my factory gun! I only ask because I honestly don't know... how exactly does an ambi selector effect your shooting? Sometimes the safety on the right side hits the top of one's right hand - it's irritating on 1911s, for instance. |
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Posted: 5/1/2016 1:50:48 PM EDT
[#43]
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Make it roller locked, and we'd really have something! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.... Give me a PS90 in 9mm that works reliably and that I can easily run suppressed when I want and I will be happier than a tornado in a trailer park. Yes, please. Two, even. Put me in line I was going to say, make it a bullpup. This is a good start. Make it roller locked, and we'd really have something! Roller locks have their own problems (both in manufacturing and design). I like blow back in a pistol caliber for it's simple, straight-forward operation, but I'd like the recoil impulse as tame as possible. I think we will see more and more PCC's being used in competition. I've not yet shot a sig, but I've heard it has a pretty stiff recoil impulse. Anyone with first hand experience? |
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