What would it be?

For me, a 9mm carbine that uses either glock, Smith 59, or Smith M&P magazines, bullpup, with free-float rail and 16.5" barrel (same as Camp-9) with 1/2x28 threaded barrel. Basically, something very like the MCS carbine that I've never found anywhere:


Wish I could encounter one of those somewhere other than internet pictures. Considered a bullpup stock for my camp-9, but the ones I've found have been clunky as all get-out.


What would be your 'ultimate' dream-gun as far as pistol-caliber carbines go?

HK mp10 (10mm)

This:

Vityaz

YES, YES, YES!!!!!

MP5 is the only correct answer.

I have one. It is lovely.

They're nice; I've used the suppressed MP5K version and it was fun.

Seems like most everyone's leaning towards SBR's - which to me are basically, "really big 9mm pistols with shoulder stocks".  

I'm thinking more along the lines of true carbines rather than SBR's, partly for the increased ballistic performance of a carbine-length barrel, and partly to avoid the class-3 hassles. I do have some class-3 stuff, but not really looking to get any more at this stage.

I have a few PCC's. Which is my favorite? What is my dream gun?  My Beretta CX-4 fits the bill for being compact, light, totally reliable and accurate. The trigger wasn't the best but a DIY trigger job really helped. A Sierra Papa trigger is liked in it by many. Its not perfect for everyone but it is sized right, well made and accurate.

I have a TNW ASR which is very nicely proportioned and is nice and light. Uses Glock mags, shoots well and here again, a trigger that is less than perfect but passable.

My JRC is a nice rifle, very reliable and accurate but compared to the former two, heavier and larger.

MP5......nice...but too rich for my blood.

Yes, a bullpup 9mm carbine less than $1500.00!

Bulpup that uses glock mags and is lefty friendly!

MP5 in 50AE

My "dream" PCC...

Of the ones that I currently own, I would have to say my SBR MKE 94P. Love the looks of the MP5A3 and they're a blast on full auto.

One that I currently do not own, I would still want either the Russian Vityaz to compliment my 74U, a FN PS90 SBR, or 1928 Thompson. I could also go for the Scorpion EVO 3 in SBR form.

I've been kicking around an idea of how to build a semi-auto carbine in .44 Mag and .50 AE.  

i would love a .50 AE carbine that takes unmodified desert eagle magazines

This one is ready to go
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=468677303

I would like a 9x19 bolt gun on proportionally sized action.  More or less a modernized Destroyer Carbine.  I don't really care what mag it takes, but Glock would be nice.  

Advntrjnky

Elements of the perfect 9mm PCC:
1. Action is something other than direct blowback
2. Weight is 5.5lbs or less.
3. Fully ambi controls that don't suck.
4. Can use a suppressor
5. Can be made very small via folding stock or SBR.
6. Uses Glock, unmodified Uzi, or Colt mags and drums.

Bullpup would be cool, but is not strictly a requirement in my book.

Sten

MP5 size/weight in 44mag

Years ago I asked Desert Eagle if they had considered a carbine, and they said no and didn't sound like the idea had much merit.

It should be possible to add a permanently attached flash hider albeit a long one and a stock and not even have to SBR one.

Many years ago a gunsmith friend and I redesigned the Marlin Camp Carbine to shoot 50AE with unmodified Deagle mags. The project never got off the ground due to lack of funds and my gunsmith friend was starting what is now a very, very successful national business.

The Camp Carbines used to crack just firing their intended .45ACP - sounds like you and your friend were looking for trouble with that experiment.

I'm not a huge bullpup guy, actually. My main reason for the bullpup thing in this instance is keeping SBR/PDW length, with full-length barrel.

The longer barrel adds a lot to a 9mm. I get over 700ft/lbs with a couple loads, and over 600 with numerous loads from my camp-9. Bullpup could give the performance benefits while keeping things compact.

I really want one of the Czechpoint VZ61s in 380...

I get that, but even with the additional performance, you're way under an intermediate rifle caliber's power. To me, it's better to embrace the pistol caliber fully by utilizing the high-mass/low-speed aspect via suppressor rather than try to pretend it's ever going to be a substitute for a rifle caliber by utilizing the longer barrel... because it won't be.

Now, if someone designed the bullpup so you could run it with an ultra-short barrel (like 5"-7") and get some sort of absurdly low OAL, I'd be game for that, too. In theory, the IWI X95 SMG could be like 16" long if someone redesigned it to lop off 7" of barrel and forend, so there's definitely some room for absurdly short guns in play here. Hell, the Uzi is already only 18"-19" long with the stock collapsed, it just weighs a friggin' ton.

So, something like this.  Pistol-length barrel, suppressor, about 21" in length.  You couldn't shoot it without the suppressor so why not make it integrally-suppressed; that would give you all the quiet and a little more velocity?  Sorry my sketch doesn't have sights

Agree as well, at least for a pistol-caliber PDW or SBR setup. My PCC's are largely recreational in nature, in 9mm, .38/.357, .44, and .45/.454 calibers. For a PDW, the short & suppressed approach is better; mine are mainly for pinging steel, hunting, and dealing with nuisance animals.

No reason to not suppress even recreational ones, though...

16" puma in .357 magnum, with scout mount, bushnell red dot, and titanium abraxas suppressor:

Usually use subsonics as you say for maximum quietness, and they work well for a lot of things. When loaded with full .357 loads, it's putting out between 1100 and 1200 ft/lbs; more than a .44 magnum handgun, or darn near the energy level (and twice the projectile weight) of a full 5.56 carbine.

H&R .357 single-shot, with the same abraxas suppressor:


Without suppressor, it looks odd, but still over 16" so no Class-3 issues, extremely maneuverable in the woods, and (like the levergun) still the same .44 magnum handgun or 5.56 carbine power when using full magnum loads:


I've more than once considered replacing the scope with a Leupold 1-4 compact, but the little simmons is one I had laying around at the time, and it's worked surprisingly well on it.


Camp-9 - Rear is a normal bushnell red dot in extra-high rings; front is a DBAL clone with visible laser, IR laser, and IR flood. This setup puts the red dot higher than ideal, but it's worth it for me personally to have the zero-fuss option of switching between regular optic or NV use. Sighted at 60 yards keeps it within 1.5" of POA from 5 to 75 yards; and the short ranges I use this at, the extra mounting height isn't as bad as it sometimes would be.

I had the 12" picatinny rail mounted when it was threaded:



With the suppressor in place:



Suppressed, it's not as quiet as the levergun or single-shot carbines with same-power loads, that's the inevitable trade-off for the faster follow-up shots of the semiauto. The blowback action makes it about as loud as a suppressed 9mm pistol; still very quiet, but not not up with the quietness of the sealed-breech guns.

One of these days I may yet put a bullpup or folding stock on the Camp-9...

So far I have been extremely impressed with the Beretta CX4. It gives me everything a left handed shooter could want. Ambi charging handle and ambi ejection. The only way I could see to make it better is to have a Glock ,mag adapter. I've been shooting it at the local steel challenge matches and turning in some pretty good times.

Redesigned.....reading is fundamental.

A PS90 in 9mm (or 45, I guess, but the mag would be like a brick) would be the tits! SBR it and that would be twenty year old perky tits.

Disclaimer: I'm an owner of a PS90 SBR and it is awesome and amazingly small, lightweight, and handy. You can whip it around from target to target like no other gun in its class, it's like pointing your finger. The ammo is actually NOT bad contrary to what people assume and say on the web. But, 9mm would make it even better IMO.

sounds like the project should be revisited, i would be interested in one. i would really like one with a threaded barrel, a rear peep sight and a fiberoptic bead on the front sight.

PS90 in 9 MM.........

I'm

You didn't say what parts you were redesigning except to mention caliber and magazines. Being specific is terrific.

A 9mm AR that runs reliably out of the box and takes 5 minutes to clean.

Kriss 9mm

Mp7a1, so I can SBR it.

For me a light carbine that takes same mag as my sidearm ( prefer Glock or Sig pattern mags - but for the right carbine I would switch pistols )

For me mag swap capabilities is one of the primary criteria for my "dream" pcc

I  want a long enough barrel 11.5 -16"

Sig brace

Reliable

I'm leaning towards building an AR based PCC

I confess I don't own anything in the gap between 5" and 16" in 9mm, and have been basing my opinion on the tests of others. At BBTI, their tests of ten different loads from 90-147 grains, their results show the barrel lengths achieving maximum velocities were:

corbon 90 +P: 15"
corbon 115 +P: 17"
corbon 125 +P: 13"
corbon 115 DPX: 16"
federal 115JHP: 17"
federal 135 hydrashok: 17"
federal 105 efmj: 17"
federal 124 hydrashok: 17"
federal 147 hydrashok: 17"
speer gold dot 'short barrel' 124 jhp: 17"

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html


Most of the charts for each individual load follow a very similar pattern. Three examples that I would have thought would give very different patterns, yet really didn't; the Gold Dot "short barrel", the extra-light 90-grain +P, and the standard-pressure 147-grain:






I was surprised to see those three very different loadings following the same pattern. One supposedly optimized for short barrel guns, one super-light-bullet loaded to +P pressure, and one heavy-bullet standard-pressure; yet they all maxed out velocity-wise between 15-17 inches.

I don't think of BBTI as gospel or anything, just one source. If their numbers are off or questionable, I'd definitely appreciate other sources with better info.

If we're talking non-NFA PCCs....

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_9/436313_A_non_NFA_9mm_Carbine____Nato_style__Range_report_Page_2.html&page=1#i4195029

Same here. I've run some comparisons between pistol & carbine over my own chrono, but no way to test incrementally the way they do.

With 9BPLE, I get 442 ft/lbs from a glock 19. From the carbine it runs 667 ft/lbs; an almost exactly 50% increase in power. From my G19, federal's old Hi-shok 147 runs 309 ft/lbs. From the carbine it runs 430; a nearly 40% increase.

One surprise from the 9mm carbine was that - even though it shoots ridiculously 'soft' - it makes a lot of 9mm loads more powerful than the vaunted 10mm handgun. Even lowly WW-USA 115-grain jhp white box runs 579 ft/lbs (1505 fps) from the camp-9; and talk about a soft-shooting gun, lots of fun to shoot. (Yet folks pooh-pooh a "pistol-caliber carbine" as incapable, while standing in awe of the nuclear 10mm pistols. )

I was also surprised that the 90-grain corbon peaked at 1766fps in the bbti tests. My camp-9 averages 1826fps (740 ft/lbs) with the heavier 100-grain pow'rball round. Maybe I just got lucky & got a 'fast' barrel on my gun... Don't know, but I like it.

My Steyr aug 9mm



16.5 inch barrel and only 27 inches long. It's the same size as an MP5 with the stock out (or a fixed a2 stock) but non NFA!

I'll agree with Quake.  After seeing his post on this thread, I'm now inspired to thread my 1894 Levergun.

The Marlin 1894 Setup with a co-witnessed reflex sight and a H&R Handi with a 38/357 barrel cut to 17 inches, threaded and chambered for 357 Max.







[[[[ Sorry, I'm having problems getting the photos to pull from Photobucket....   ]]]]

There are a lot of neat guns in here, but mine is a IMI Timberwolf pump in .44 mag.
Short, light, handy, feeds from the bottom like a pump shotgun. .44Mag thumps pretty good in PC range, usable in little longer ranges. Easy to carry and shoot. A lot of bullet choices.  Low power scope makes it a little better, for me.
Ammo is light, fits the revolver too : )

J