These MSRPs might explain why B+T has developed the P26.


I was hoping the AP series, with their extruded aluminum receivers (less machining) and bolted together parts (look for the Torx fasteners) would result in a lower MSRP.  But, for all the Euro agencies that want to drop their aging MP5s, that price difference really doesn't matter.  

At least we have more OPTIONS as firearm consumers in the US even if they aren't affordable le for everyone.  

I love B&T's stuff, but am happy I bought my TP9s back in the day when they could be purchased for under $1K.  The problem B&T is facing is that there are allot of "sub-gun" style products on the market: POG MP5 clones, MKE, Uzi Pro, CZ Scorpion, MPX, Kriss Vector, Sub2000, and others, including AR-15s chambered in pistol calibers. It's a niche market and a hard one to crack with a $2K+ gun with questionable long-term support. I wish them well and would love an APC9 and APC45 in my collection, but will have to pass until the prices come down.

Well, just when I think about buying some optics for some of my existing guns, another carrot like the APC9 gets dangled in front of me. They've already sold me on their products. Of course one could buy a couple pistols and an AR 9mm for the cost of one B&T, but you can only shoot one gun at a time. I'd rather 100% enjoy shooting one gun than compromise and 75% enjoy three different ones.

It's official.  I want this.  Look how compact this thing is!











Source: http://www.all4shooters.com/en/specials/trade-shows-2015/IWA-2015/pistols/B-T-AG-TP380-semi-automatic-pistol/

I wonder if B+T had markets that disallow "military calibers when the designed the little .380 being a semi-auto from the ground up.  That thing is TINY!  I have to have one to go with my TP9 and SPP.  I'm guessing at least $1500?

I don't even want to know how much they're going to want for the magazines.

Never thought the "good old days" of SPP/TP9 magazines would be the $45 ones at DS Arms!

Long day reading material Certs (Five HTs for a six piece job!!! aaahhh)......and I missed that link! D'oh!  It was a good read.


It'll be interesting to see how quiet B+T can get that little guy.  What's the over-under on the cost of the weapon vs. suppressor! lol I couldn't believe the cost of the US Rotex....until I remembered it involved the Swiss.

My ACP9 should me in my hands by Friday or Monday

I just received pricing from GMP, $1990 for the 9mm and $2060 for the 45. They said about 3-6 week wait once ordered. B&T stocks were $250.

I'm hoping that the TP380 is quite a bit cheaper than its bigger brother since there is no locking mechanism. It is a direct blow back.

Is the TP380 actually coming stateside?

Awesome.
Mind sharing who you bought it though and how much?

50 West Arms in Chantilly Va has a APC9 and APC45 on their shelf.  Very slick guns but I am glad I went with an MP5K clone and didn't wait for these.  They also had a TP9 SBR in stock.  The APC9 was above $2,000 if I remember correctly.
 

Much cooler than a Sig MPX imo.

How much was the TP9?

Didn't look.

I've found at least one "gun news" site that said yes.

What site would that be?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

I am a stocking dealer for B&T USA and have the APC9 in stock. I sold out of the TP9 and APC45 but should have those back in within the next few weeks. My prices are better than most if not all others out there, as far as I can tell. Please PM or Email me if you'd like a quote on them. They really are great firearms and you won't be disappointed. They can be pricey but it's the equivalent of buying a luxury car or watch. Some will pay for them and some will consider the cost too steep. I'm going to be keeping samples of each for my own collection because I like them so much. The rifle calibers are at ATF for approval so we should get more info on those soon.

I've got the Sig MPX, CZ scorpion EVO along with several other HK carbines and just picked up a B&T APC45. The quality and feel of the APC45 has left me with serious buyers remorse for getting the Sig MPX. The MPX feels seriously crude when compared to the B&T APC. I will be picking up an APC9 as soon as funds will possibly allow. I'm also a huge HK fan with many models and I'd say the quality of the B&T is as good if not better than the HKs. I also desire to acquire the APC 5.56 and the APC300 as soon as they hit the market.  I just can't say enough good things so far about this platform so far. I am very excited about B&T now selling in the USA... just hope they start offering their suppressors soon too.

Picked up a B&T APC45... runs like a Swiss watch... so any comments that these are crap are unimaginably uniformed and are being said by people who have not held or shot one of these amazing firearms. These B&T APC pistols SBR'ed are going to be beyond bad to the bone. I don't see their quality or ergonomics being exceeded in the current market at any price and I should know. I either already own, have owned or at least have shot almost every modern high quality carbine ever made including all of the HKs.

To compare the TP9 and the APC is like comparing a 90's Camaro to a 2015 Corvette Stingray. Yes... both are built by Chevrolet but are worlds apart. Even now B&T is offering lower end models of some 9mm carbines to try to attract different price points in the market place. Comparing the TP9 to APCs is grossly misleading because they were never meant to be in the same class of weapons. One is high end cost no object... the other is more of a budget friendly option. I have a MPX, CZ Scorpion and have previously owned a Kriss Vector. None of those three weapon systems though very nice are in the same class with the B&T APC... not even close. I am not some B&T fan girl here... I'm just telling it like it is... the truth is the truth.

The APC and TP-9 are closely priced. If yoU are suggesting that the TP-9 is some sort of low-rent sub gun compared to the APC, I have my doubts that you've owned, much less handled, the weapon. The TP-9 has a very complex rotating barrel system with an integrated shroud lugged for suppressor use. The APC uses a much simpler system and is made of more traditional materials. The TP-9 engineering is unique and accounts for its cost. It was designed as an Uzi/ MP5 replacements with lighter weight and better recoil management.  To date, I've never seen anything like it on the market. Ultimately, I feel the MPX does the job better with extruded aluminum, an AR-style locking and a more rifle-like trigger.

I don't know what truth you're taking about.

I owned a Steyr SPP... the TP9 is just a slightly reworked SPP. There is a HUGE difference between the APC and the TP9 in almost every possible way... especially the trigger so don't give me that crap about I don't know what I am talking about... been in this hobby LONG time and owned a very large number of high end firearms so I have perspective. I will post in an uzitalk.com post below just to prove my point.

Quote Originally Posted by s0b3
I have a SPP and it has the horrible 16 lb trigger. Sent it off to Bill Springfield and it's a little better. I heard that the B&T TP9 trigger is better but when I look at a picture, the internals appear identical.

Is the TP9 trigger better? If so, what parts are different that make a difference?

Saw this old thread:
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30715

Anyone know what parts make up the difference in the TP9? Maybe I can order those parts from DSArms.
the TP9 trigger is only marginally better in my opinion, i had a SPP and now have a TP9 and I could barely tell the difference between the two. the only upside to the TP9 is the upper receiver is railed so it's easier to mount optics.

So when filing a Form 1 on these do you list the manufacturer as B&T USA LLC or Brugger & Thomet ? Both are options in the eforms.

Ost. And bump

Ok then. I still call BS. Sorry, but this is a technical forum and simply stating that there's "a HUGE difference" means exactly fuck all. And explaining the fact that the TP-9 is a "slightly reworked" SPP, again, shows awesome wiki skills.

ETA- the SPP trigger was long and heavy because it was multi-stage, similar to the AUG. the TP-9 is long still, but lighter due to the advent of a selector on the FA model.

If it's the original DSA import, list Brugger & Thomet. I suspect the new B&Ts are still made in Switzerland, but Brugger & Thomet no longer exists - the company is now simply B&T, which I would list as the manufacturer. However, I'd first seek clarification as to whether B&T USA is an importer or manufacturer - I suspect the former. When all else fails, use the gun's identifying maker mark and include a photo w/the Form 1.

Ok then. I still call BS. Sorry, but this is a technical forum and simply stating that there's "a HUGE difference" means exactly fuck all. And explaining the fact that the TP-9 is a "slightly reworked" SPP, again, shows awesome wiki skills.

ETA- the SPP trigger was long and heavy because it was multi-stage, similar to the AUG. the TP-9 is long still, but lighter due to the advent of a selector on the FA model.

I really would like to have an APC9 in sbr form, but don't have any NFA items and would be starting from scratch. I guess I'm a little intimidated by the effort involved. However, if B&T imported the APC9-P in pistol version, I'd just through on the fake three lug can as a permanent barrel extension and use it as a carbine.

Am I alone on this?  Any chance of the APC9-P coming stateside in pistol form? Maybe I should just give up and sbr the regular one?

The APC9 is here in pistol form. TTAG has a brief run down of the FA version on their page.  The comments about the price are hilarious. Anything Swiss made is expensive. People don't balk at $2000+ 1911s but think Swiss sub guns should be the same price as a Glock. Don't get me wrong, they're priced out of my budget, but, B+T has to recoup their R&D. Add in import costs, shipping, markup, and the overhead of a U.S. office and the price jumps quick.  And, who knows how long they'll be imported. There's plenty of people with deep pockets that are into the stamp collecting game. Look how much those Swiss 553 pistols go for and that's a decades old design that's benefited from mass production as the rifle of the Swiss armed forces.

I recently been on PCC kick with buying a transferable m11 and SBRing a MPX some MP5 clones. Ive been looking at this APC9 closely recently. Did i read somewhere correctly that this can take standard B&T MP5 stocks? I would not want to invest 2k into a pistol without factory stocks available to SBR it.

I don't know about their mp5 stocks fitting them. But they can accept a standard ar buffer tube and stock and some retailers do have factory B&T APC stocks for sale.

The stocks are in stock and available for purchase at hkparts.net

I hope this helps.

Are there any issues with running a non-B&T silencer with an APC9, such as an octane 9 or tirantS?  Have read about the possible issues with the TP9 (using non B&T silencers) but wondering if this applies to the APC9 as well?

Mine has never been shot without my Octane 45 on it. I have a few hundred round through them with zero problems.

I put "Brugger & Thomet" on my TP-9's Form 1 and it was approved.  Unless they're being made here B&T USA would be an importer IIRC.

Man, I got the chance to handle a SBR version today, and it was sweeeeet. Gonna be hard to restrain myself from buying it! $2000+ hurts!

Can anyone give a side by side comparison on felt recoil for the ACP9 vs MP5? Curious how the hydrolic buffer in the ACP9 compares.

Want this!! And a tp9!!!!

how does this suppress compared to a 9mm blowback AR15?

Curious about this as well.

Sorry if this has been asked earlier but has anyone seen the APC or the TP9 at their FFL?

No. The TP9 was a weird mix of rotating bolt/barrel and it just handled suppression very poorly. So poorly in fact, I sold mine. I put an MK9K with it, and that still wasn't high enough volume to not get gassed in the eyes every single shot. That action just had no hope. If you've never seen it, it's a blowback looking bolt, but with a rotating barrel that resembles an elongated AR-15 bolt. Ugh, I'm having flashbacks.... Anyhow, the APC (rightfully) shares nothing with that except the mags which were OK, I think 9mm mags should be curved to avoid weird stacking inside the mag issues. The APC should suppress as well as any Uzi or Evo or other heavy blowback bolt.




More than the MP5. No doubt about it. All blowback guns will have more. The MP5 is an exceptionally dull recoiling gun. It's a very long impulse. A blowback gun will be a faster impulse and the reciprocating parts weigh more, so you'll feel it more, but its a 9mm carbine, and you're shooting semi-auto - you'll be fine.




It's not even a question. A 9mm AR just CAN NOT fit the right amount of weight into the buffer and carrier to get the right dwell time and cyclic rate. That's why they suppress like poo (still not as bad as the TP9). In terms of suppression, I can see no reason the APC9 won't suppress the same as the Uzi and Evo3. The MP5 is also a master of suppression assuming fullsize with the correct locking piece. I could never get my RS to suppress nearly as well with a locking piece that worked for suppressed and unsuppressed shooting, it was one or the other with that gun.  In order from worst to best suppressed:

TP9
9mm AR / MPX (equal imo but for different reasons)
Heavy blowback bolt: UMP, Evo3, Uzi, APC9
MP5


... Now.... Having got some fondle time on the APC9. I was immediately put off by the weight and balance. Nothing was right imo. Last I heard it DOES NOT actually take an AR-15 trigger, although they originally wanted it to, and said it did. And the price tag is full-on ridiculous. Esp compared to the Evo3 at sub-$800 with $20 mags. The APC9 is just not 3 times the gun. But... If you absolutely must have one and are willing to drop that much money, I think it's a better gun and deal than a UMP conversion and considering the final cost of the MPX it's not too far from that.

I'd highly recommend anyone get hands one before going to drop coin.

Interesting. Is the APC a straight blow back design?

Yes. Their only "innovation" on the heavy bolt Uzi / Evo / UMP is that it's got that hydrolic recoil buffer. Which should cut cyclic rate down, but in order for it to really work to reduce recoil they MAY HAVE lightened the bolt - which is bad for dwell time. It's a balancing act with an optimal range, backwards less mass less spring, forwards more mass more spring. You want to strip the round out with momentum (high mass, but not excessive speed), but want low mass which means you need a stronger spring to seat the next round, etc etc.

light recoil but less reliable <<<<>>>  OPTIMAL <<<<>>>> heavy recoil more reliable

I have a feeling with their hydrolic buffer than B&T has chosen to go on the lower mass side, which would increase the peak bolt velocity which is when you would want a hydrolic catcher's mitt to stop it from slamming into the rear. This is only my guess, but in this case, lower mass means suppresses probably not as well.

You must have had one of the Tp9 pistols that had 1/2x28 threading?  Could you elaborate anymore on your experience with it suppressed and unsuppressed?

I did indeed! Well... I had the M26.5 threads or whatever it was an had an adapter.

Um... I can't explain how bad it was. Two shots and you were blind, suppressed. Unsuppressed it ran well enough. A little snappy, partly because the action was fast, partly because it was light.

I also took issue that with such a complex action, that parts were stupid expensive. The barrel guide (threaded or lugged part) which isn't all that complex was a min of $400 if you could get one out of Canada (Wolverine Supply) because you sure as hell weren't getting anything out of DSA.  All the parts were like this, should you ever need a barrel, well, good luck!   .... I feel that although the APC9 barrel is much easier to make and replace - that it's still going to be unobtainium by sheer merit of how B&T runs their business.

There were other issues too of course... That stupid "wire" stock was trash. Slapped you in the face every round, and the screw that holds it in place will strip with no effort because everytime you open and close the stock it exerts a rotational force on it, so it strips or it walks out. Threading into plastic like that is a joke.  I also had an issue with the manual of arms, but whatever. Mostly it seems like it was designed to run a specific ammo at a specific pressure. Stepping up to 147gr made it upset, and suppressing it made it down right furious. But unsuppressed, it was OK.


I expect the APC9 to be near infinitely better, but again, after getting hands on the APC9 and ARC556, I was disappointed in the weight and overall handling. Price aside. I think they look cool, and if the Evo3 didn't come in and do the same job for 1/3 the cost, maybe I'd still be thinking about it.

There seems to be a slight difference from the DSA TP9 to the one they were showing at shot show this year.  I'm not sure if this is a newer "Gen" or just simply a few tweaks. If anyone has any knowledge about these problems and the newer TP9s, please elaborate. I'm only going off pictures and video offline.

Safety is different iirc. Not sure what else.  But the issues I listed out were mostly fundamental issues of the Steyr SPP, the very complex way the action works. Unless they offer a very different bolt, spring, weight, or barrel kit, I just don't see the TP9 ever suppressing well.

On the MP5, it's pretty easy. You change the locking piece angle. Gas guns like the MPX you change the port location or size, but that gun is messed up because they need all the pressure they can get to run unsuppressed, so it's overgassed when suppressed. Blowback guns you change the spring or add/remove weight from the bolt. There (to the best of my knowledge) seems to be no such system developed for the TP9, changing the barrel would be like changing the cam path on an AR-15 (since the barrel has the rotation cut into it), that could work maybe, but doesn't exist.

Damn, its a shame really. This could have been the Civilian MP7 everyone was asking for. Plus it was in a common caliber. Perhaps another company will step up and make a civi MP7 like gun.