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Posted: 8/25/2015 1:46:00 PM EDT
From the FaceBook "Shooting Bench" Randy Evans on 'reloading 101
Anybody ever wondered what an exploding 45-70 marlin guide gun will do to a person's hand. All my measurements and charges were correct. But I forget forgot to crimp the bullet. This caused the bullet to seat deeper and deeper with every shot which ultimately seated the bullet to a point were the pressures were dangerously high causing the pressure to build before the bullet could leave the barrel. 
No other info other than what's posted... |
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Posted: 8/25/2015 2:22:59 PM EDT
[#1]
DAMN
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Posted: 8/25/2015 3:00:29 PM EDT
[#2]
Fucking OUCH!!!!!
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Posted: 8/25/2015 5:16:25 PM EDT
[#3]
Carl, youre one tough SOB to be calming posting about this and sharing a warning of what went wrong.
did you lose the end of that left pinky finger? that had to hurt like a bitch. |
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Posted: 8/25/2015 5:22:00 PM EDT
[#4]
Ouch. Speedy recovery to the shooter.
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Posted: 8/25/2015 5:58:48 PM EDT
[#5]
How are you so sure what happened to that round?
Speedy recovery to you! |
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Posted: 8/25/2015 6:51:45 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Carl, youre one tough SOB to be calming posting about this and sharing a warning of what went wrong. did you lose the end of that left pinky finger? that had to hurt like a bitch. Not mine... thankfully! This post showed up on my Facebook news feed and I thought I'd share it here. I guess the guy didn't crimp when reloading and this was due to the over pressure. |
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Posted: 8/25/2015 7:13:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Yikes!
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Posted: 8/25/2015 7:26:11 PM EDT
[#8]
hand volcano...jeezus
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Posted: 8/25/2015 8:49:13 PM EDT
[#9]
Ouch
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Posted: 8/25/2015 10:08:22 PM EDT
[#10]
Should post a link in reloading. It's always good to get discussions on these....
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Posted: 8/25/2015 10:30:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not mine... thankfully! This post showed up on my Facebook news feed and I thought I'd share it here. I guess the guy didn't crimp when reloading and this was due to the over pressure. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Carl, youre one tough SOB to be calming posting about this and sharing a warning of what went wrong. did you lose the end of that left pinky finger? that had to hurt like a bitch. Not mine... thankfully! This post showed up on my Facebook news feed and I thought I'd share it here. I guess the guy didn't crimp when reloading and this was due to the over pressure. my bad, I thought it was your own hand and mishap. still, a lot of us would have had to hide what happened instead of using it to teach a point. scruff |
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Posted: 8/26/2015 2:49:27 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
my bad, I thought it was your own hand and mishap. still, a lot of us would have had to hide what happened instead of using it to teach a point. scruff Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Carl, youre one tough SOB to be calming posting about this and sharing a warning of what went wrong. did you lose the end of that left pinky finger? that had to hurt like a bitch. Not mine... thankfully! This post showed up on my Facebook news feed and I thought I'd share it here. I guess the guy didn't crimp when reloading and this was due to the over pressure. my bad, I thought it was your own hand and mishap. still, a lot of us would have had to hide what happened instead of using it to teach a point. scruff I hope they know for sure that it was bad crimping that caused the detonation. This is not the only kaboom that has happened to the Marlin 95 action. By design, the 1895 action was built/based off of the 30-30, NOT the 45-70. When Marlin shoe horned the 45-70 into that action, they failed to built up the metal and barrel threads. There has been more of a few cases of 95's detonating just like this one with factory ammunition. It happened to my father with a 95 cowboy which Marlin eventually settled monetarily with him. The only thing that prevented his hand from becoming hambuger was that he was shooting from a bench with the forearm on a sand bag. I would caution anyone on loading anything even mild for this action. The barrel is extremely thin (chamber area) and was not built up for strength. Don't believe me? Pull the barrel, look for yourself and google it. When these guns blow, they always split the receiver, fragment the forearm and banana peel the barrel. |
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Posted: 8/26/2015 1:01:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hope they know for sure that it was bad crimping that caused the detonation. This is not the only kaboom that has happened to the Marlin 95 action. By design, the 1895 action was built/based off of the 30-30, NOT the 45-70. When Marlin shoe horned the 45-70 into that action, they failed to built up the metal and barrel threads. There has been more of a few cases of 95's detonating just like this one with factory ammunition. It happened to my father with a 95 cowboy which Marlin eventually settled monetarily with him. The only thing that prevented his hand from becoming hambuger was that he was shooting from a bench with the forearm on a sand bag. I would caution anyone on loading anything even mild for this action. The barrel is extremely thin (chamber area) and was not built up for strength. Don't believe me? Pull the barrel, look for yourself and google it. When these guns blow, they always split the receiver, fragment the forearm and banana peel the barrel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Carl, youre one tough SOB to be calming posting about this and sharing a warning of what went wrong. did you lose the end of that left pinky finger? that had to hurt like a bitch. Not mine... thankfully! This post showed up on my Facebook news feed and I thought I'd share it here. I guess the guy didn't crimp when reloading and this was due to the over pressure. my bad, I thought it was your own hand and mishap. still, a lot of us would have had to hide what happened instead of using it to teach a point. scruff I hope they know for sure that it was bad crimping that caused the detonation. This is not the only kaboom that has happened to the Marlin 95 action. By design, the 1895 action was built/based off of the 30-30, NOT the 45-70. When Marlin shoe horned the 45-70 into that action, they failed to built up the metal and barrel threads. There has been more of a few cases of 95's detonating just like this one with factory ammunition. It happened to my father with a 95 cowboy which Marlin eventually settled monetarily with him. The only thing that prevented his hand from becoming hambuger was that he was shooting from a bench with the forearm on a sand bag. I would caution anyone on loading anything even mild for this action. The barrel is extremely thin (chamber area) and was not built up for strength. Don't believe me? Pull the barrel, look for yourself and google it. When these guns blow, they always split the receiver, fragment the forearm and banana peel the barrel. Terrible injury...hope you recover quickly. I shoot lefty and sometimes grasp the receiver with my right hand or where the forestock meets the receiver. My right hand would have probably been blown off completely in that particular kaboom. If what you say is true (I don't own a 1895) then would the .444 be a stronger chambering? I know that was the original chambering at least. The .444 is obviously a smaller diameter bullet and case, so maybe more steel wrapped around it? Has it been mentioned if this is a Remlin or Marlin? |
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Posted: 8/26/2015 1:06:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not mine... thankfully! This post showed up on my Facebook news feed and I thought I'd share it here. I guess the guy didn't crimp when reloading and this was due to the over pressure. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Carl, youre one tough SOB to be calming posting about this and sharing a warning of what went wrong. did you lose the end of that left pinky finger? that had to hurt like a bitch. Not mine... thankfully! This post showed up on my Facebook news feed and I thought I'd share it here. I guess the guy didn't crimp when reloading and this was due to the over pressure. It's due to over pressure and a weak action. Would this have happened in a Ruger #1 or Mauser? I seriously doubt it. |
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Posted: 8/26/2015 1:15:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's due to over pressure and a weak action. Would this have happened in a Ruger #1 or Mauser? I seriously doubt it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Carl, youre one tough SOB to be calming posting about this and sharing a warning of what went wrong. did you lose the end of that left pinky finger? that had to hurt like a bitch. Not mine... thankfully! This post showed up on my Facebook news feed and I thought I'd share it here. I guess the guy didn't crimp when reloading and this was due to the over pressure. It's due to over pressure and a weak action. Would this have happened in a Ruger #1 or Mauser? I seriously doubt it. Don't the manuals give us heavy loads specifically for the 1895? I shoot max-loaded 405's out of mine. |
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Posted: 8/26/2015 1:29:48 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't the manuals give us heavy loads specifically for the 1895? I shoot max-loaded 405's out of mine. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Carl, youre one tough SOB to be calming posting about this and sharing a warning of what went wrong. did you lose the end of that left pinky finger? that had to hurt like a bitch. Not mine... thankfully! This post showed up on my Facebook news feed and I thought I'd share it here. I guess the guy didn't crimp when reloading and this was due to the over pressure. It's due to over pressure and a weak action. Would this have happened in a Ruger #1 or Mauser? I seriously doubt it. Don't the manuals give us heavy loads specifically for the 1895? I shoot max-loaded 405's out of mine. It's a big step down from the heavy Ruger or Mauser loads, but slightly above Trapdoor Sprg. loads (RCBS/Speer). Essentially what I'm saying (and what I've thought for years) is that the 1895 is a little weak for souped up .45-70 loads. I have a different take or opinion than most shooters. I view a weapon that must use reduced power loadings as weak and faulty. I see the S&W 629 that same way since it can't handle the full variety of .44 mag available. All within SAAMI spec BTW. It's probably not a popular stance and I'm sure I'll get an argument from some 1895 .45-70 owners, but that's how I feel. |
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Posted: 8/26/2015 7:04:08 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's due to over pressure and a weak action. Would this have happened in a Ruger #1 or Mauser? I seriously doubt it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Carl, youre one tough SOB to be calming posting about this and sharing a warning of what went wrong. did you lose the end of that left pinky finger? that had to hurt like a bitch. Not mine... thankfully! This post showed up on my Facebook news feed and I thought I'd share it here. I guess the guy didn't crimp when reloading and this was due to the over pressure. It's due to over pressure and a weak action. Would this have happened in a Ruger #1 or Mauser? I seriously doubt it. Would this have happened in a Henry H010? |
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Posted: 8/26/2015 10:50:17 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would this have happened in a Henry H010? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Carl, youre one tough SOB to be calming posting about this and sharing a warning of what went wrong. did you lose the end of that left pinky finger? that had to hurt like a bitch. Not mine... thankfully! This post showed up on my Facebook news feed and I thought I'd share it here. I guess the guy didn't crimp when reloading and this was due to the over pressure. It's due to over pressure and a weak action. Would this have happened in a Ruger #1 or Mauser? I seriously doubt it. Would this have happened in a Henry H010? Not sure. Aren't they just an uglified 336 with tube loading? 
Seriously though, I imagine they have about the same pressure tolerances as the 336/1895 action. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 10:20:54 AM EDT
[#19]
Reloading is not a hobby for the inattentive. It's for those that follow the steps one at a time, exactly as they should be done. Being OCD a bit isn't a bad thing.
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Posted: 8/31/2015 10:56:19 PM EDT
[#20]
I'd like to hear if anyone gets more info on this. I'd bet it's something more than bullet setback.
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Posted: 8/31/2015 11:15:34 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd like to hear if anyone gets more info on this. I'd bet it's something more than bullet setback. Agreed |
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Posted: 8/31/2015 11:44:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Title should be something like
Reloading Fail |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:35:38 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agreed Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'd like to hear if anyone gets more info on this. I'd bet it's something more than bullet setback. Agreed I'd bet on pistol powder or double charge. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 4:50:47 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Title should be something like Reloading Fail Everyone reading this thread with a 1895 Marlin would surely like to think so. Not saying it is or isn't, but I don't trust that rifle/caliber combination. |
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Posted: 9/2/2015 1:26:01 AM EDT
[#25]
Mmm....I'm having a difficult buying the "reason" the rifle blew up. This is not the first time I've seen photos of destroyed firearms where the owner just KNOWS he did everything properly, such as the correct charges.
I've owned a Marlin 1895 for nearly 35 years and in my younger days thought nothing of loading a 400 gr. Speer over 1900 fps and the rifle suffered not one whit (although my shoulder did). If you've ever seated a big .45 caliber bullet in a 45-70 case, you know they don't just slide right in to a properly sized case. In fact like seating any rifle bullet it takes a little effort even when using a heavy duty press. As such I find it difficult to believe that a bullet could telescope down in to a case under recoil, especially considering the fact that the magazine only holds 4 rounds and therefore there's not a lot of opportunity for a bullet to get pounded down in a case. In fact, allow me to go ahead and be the first to call bullshit. I'd bet on pistol powder or double charge. You and me both. A double charge of a fast burning powder. |
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Posted: 9/2/2015 1:34:16 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Everyone reading this thread with a 1895 Marlin would surely like to think so. Not saying it is or isn't, but I don't trust that rifle/caliber combination. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Title should be something like Reloading Fail Everyone reading this thread with a 1895 Marlin would surely like to think so. Not saying it is or isn't, but I don't trust that rifle/caliber combination. The first time I had the barrel off mine, I rethought my loading for it. |
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Posted: 9/2/2015 3:29:23 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The first time I had the barrel off mine, I rethought my loading for it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Title should be something like Reloading Fail Everyone reading this thread with a 1895 Marlin would surely like to think so. Not saying it is or isn't, but I don't trust that rifle/caliber combination. The first time I had the barrel off mine, I rethought my loading for it. Exactly. Pretty thin isn't it? I was bad mouthed previously because i didn't know what I was talking about. The first time you pull a barrel and see how thin the chamber and threads are will make you second guess. |
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Posted: 9/2/2015 3:06:20 PM EDT
[#28]
That's probably why 45-70 data for the Marlin is limited in pressure. Is the 45-70 barrel on the 1895 any thinner than the revolver cylinder of a .44 Magnum (42k psi) or 454 Casull (60k+ psi)? What about the 450 Marlin cartridge? Isn't it chambered in the same 1895 model? It operates at around 42k psi. If it's safe, I don't k ow why the 45-70 wouldn't be.
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Posted: 9/2/2015 10:47:55 PM EDT
[#29]
I'd like to know if this was a Remlin.
They have had some issues with fractures in the receiver on the newer production stuff. If you google it there should be plenty of info on it. There is no way id shoot a new one without inspection. There is a reason the JM marked stuff brings a premium |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 4:18:01 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd like to know if this was a Remlin. They have had some issues with fractures in the receiver on the newer production stuff. If you google it there should be plenty of info on it. There is no way id shoot a new one without inspection. There is a reason the JM marked stuff brings a premium Those cracks were reviewed and found to be in a non critical area as the receiver by design does not hold any pressure, rather the chamber does. A retired marlin engineer was involved in that study and concluded "The metal that is below the barrel in the receiver is too thin and too far to the rear of the chamber to be of a structural nature other than barrel retention, certainly not "chamber pressure retention" for lack of a more accurate term". A lot of these issues existed prior to the Remington buy out. Marlin fit and finish has been on the downward slope since the mid 1990's. There has been quite a bit of misinformation on this and JM marked Marlins. There were plenty of 91 prefix (JM) Marlins that suffered from barrel droop. This was not a fit and fix issue but made them unusable. Some have just seemed to have gotten on the "JM marked gun is better than any Remlin" band wagon. Remington did have issues early in with QC, but that’s not the case anymore. The new Remington marked guns far surpase the last Conn made Marlins in regards to fit, finish and quality. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 9:18:22 PM EDT
[#31]
Cracks in non critical areas. What more can I say .
The only Marlin that I currently own is a 1979 model 1895. The last two that I've handled at Cabelas were not anywhere near the quality of my older one. I had the chance to shoot a 4 gun set of old model 1100's (12ga 20ga 28ga and 410) Wow talk about not making them like they used to. I not a fan of The Freedom Group anyway for other reasons . |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 12:27:38 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd bet on pistol powder or double charge. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I'd like to hear if anyone gets more info on this. I'd bet it's something more than bullet setback. Agreed I'd bet on pistol powder or double charge. I've shot warm loads out of my guidegun for years. This kaboom is due to using the wrong powder or too much powder, no way is it due to bullet setback. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 2:21:31 AM EDT
[#33]
Couldn't agree with you more. I own about a dozen marlins made between the 1930's up to the mid 1970's and it's a night and day difference in quality.
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Posted: 9/6/2015 2:24:56 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've shot warm loads out of my guidegun for years. This kaboom is due to using the wrong powder or too much powder, no way is it due to bullet setback. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd like to hear if anyone gets more info on this. I'd bet it's something more than bullet setback. Agreed I'd bet on pistol powder or double charge. I've shot warm loads out of my guidegun for years. This kaboom is due to using the wrong powder or too much powder, no way is it due to bullet setback. There has been quite a few of them that blew on factory ammunition. I have shot my two with warm loads as well but I am quite conservative them. |
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Posted: 9/8/2015 9:28:59 AM EDT
[#35]
The published load data for .46-70 lever action rifles produces pressure just barely greater than recommended for Trapdoors.
As for "non critical" cracking, few people are qualified to make that assessment. Cracks not adjacent to the chamber or barrel tenon may affect lock up, even if it's not obvious to laymen. Bullet set back is possible, but there is no way to know whether it's a plausible cause without more information in this case in order to analyze the loss of case volume. In any case, the bullet was set back no more than flush, and I'm skeptical about that reason on its own. |
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Posted: 9/19/2015 7:35:12 PM EDT
[#36]
Thanks for posting, a lot of people take reloading way too casually, stuff a bullet and powder in a case and roll with it.
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Posted: 9/20/2015 12:11:18 PM EDT
[#37]
Damm ....... some guys don't crimp 45-70 why I haven't figured that out . mine all get a firm roll crimp .. hes lucky to still have his hand ..
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Posted: 9/20/2015 1:35:13 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Damm ....... some guys don't crimp 45-70 why I haven't figured that out . mine all get a firm roll crimp .. hes lucky to still have his hand .. Especially in a level action, tube-fed rifle. I crimp my 45/70 loads tightly. |
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Posted: 9/20/2015 3:42:14 PM EDT
[#39]
Ouch
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Posted: 9/21/2015 6:24:46 AM EDT
[#40]
I can't see haw the injured guy is so sure of the cause .
He might have found additional rounds in the tube that had some setback and made the assumption the one that blew also had setback but no one can be sure how far set back the offending round was. As someone else mentioned any properly sized brass gets a pretty good grip on the large 45/70 bullets as is My suspicions might include (but of course I am only guessing ) Reloading right at or exceeding published loads while using slightly different components setback powder not suited for the load malfunction of powder measure ( usually part of a load bridges or hangs up in the measure giving a light load to one cartridge , then the next load is excess ) Standard safe reloading will generally leave one with a safety margin , many folks push these limits and get away with it but that ice gets pretty thin and that practice is pretty risky. I am thinking more than one thing might be going on here and any setback this fellow had was the straw that broke the camels back . I wish the injured party well and speedy healing with little or no loss of function but my eyebrow raises when I read his explanation |
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Posted: 9/21/2015 7:17:17 AM EDT
[#41]
Great....
Now I'm going to be afraid the next time I fire Buffalo Bore 405gr. cartridges in my 1895, even though Buffalo Bore says this: Safe for use in all Marlin 1895 (1895 Marlins are all model 336 actions, chambered in 45-70) iterations made since 1972. |
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Posted: 9/21/2015 2:53:16 PM EDT
[#42]
Should add "with stitches" to title.
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Posted: 9/21/2015 6:36:10 PM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 9/21/2015 11:44:24 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a big step down from the heavy Ruger or Mauser loads, but slightly above Trapdoor Sprg. loads (RCBS/Speer). Essentially what I'm saying (and what I've thought for years) is that the 1895 is a little weak for souped up .45-70 loads. I have a different take or opinion than most shooters. I view a weapon that must use reduced power loadings as weak and faulty. I see the S&W 629 that same way since it can't handle the full variety of .44 mag available. All within SAAMI spec BTW. It's probably not a popular stance and I'm sure I'll get an argument from some 1895 .45-70 owners, but that's how I feel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Carl, youre one tough SOB to be calming posting about this and sharing a warning of what went wrong. did you lose the end of that left pinky finger? that had to hurt like a bitch. Not mine... thankfully! This post showed up on my Facebook news feed and I thought I'd share it here. I guess the guy didn't crimp when reloading and this was due to the over pressure. It's due to over pressure and a weak action. Would this have happened in a Ruger #1 or Mauser? I seriously doubt it. Don't the manuals give us heavy loads specifically for the 1895? I shoot max-loaded 405's out of mine. It's a big step down from the heavy Ruger or Mauser loads, but slightly above Trapdoor Sprg. loads (RCBS/Speer). Essentially what I'm saying (and what I've thought for years) is that the 1895 is a little weak for souped up .45-70 loads. I have a different take or opinion than most shooters. I view a weapon that must use reduced power loadings as weak and faulty. I see the S&W 629 that same way since it can't handle the full variety of .44 mag available. All within SAAMI spec BTW. It's probably not a popular stance and I'm sure I'll get an argument from some 1895 .45-70 owners, but that's how I feel. What's wrong with the 629? |
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Posted: 9/27/2015 1:10:47 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Especially in a level action, tube-fed rifle. I crimp my 45/70 loads tightly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Damm ....... some guys don't crimp 45-70 why I haven't figured that out . mine all get a firm roll crimp .. hes lucky to still have his hand .. Especially in a level action, tube-fed rifle. I crimp my 45/70 loads tightly. same here...I use 49.5 gr. Varget under a hard cast .405 gr lead, and use a Lee FCD for a nice heavy crimp, I shoot these out of my Henry, and have not seen any over pressure issues whatsoever. |
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Posted: 9/27/2015 11:29:18 PM EDT
[#46]
I had a chance to unload as in get rid of both my Marlin 1895 45-70 and my 629. Killed 7 black bear with the Marlin, as my scoped dusk and dawn rifle when the bears come to the bait. But these ka-boom stories , several if you research the problem wore at me till I wasn't willing to risk owning one. The Smith 629 was shot very little, but they WILL shoot loose with a steady diet of heavy loads. Bye bye, baby. Made money on both of them.
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Posted: 10/8/2015 7:15:20 PM EDT
[#47]
ouch
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