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Posted: 3/23/2014 10:41:16 PM EDT
My reading suggests that the .30-30 lever action rifle is outdated as a weapon to use for use in survival situations, however when I look at these guns I find myself wondering if its ruggedness and versatility might more than compensate for reduced range or other perceived shortcomings.  I'm really tempted to put the .30-30 lever action on my must-have list.  Does anyone else have any thoughts about the modern-day appeal and usefulness of this classic American weapon?
Link Posted: 3/23/2014 11:42:08 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I'm really tempted to put the .30-30 lever action on my must-have list.
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It sounds like you really want one and are searching for a rationale.  Just buy it!  Model 94s and other lever guns are fun, have taken a huge quantity of game over the years and are a viable self-defense option.  I'll stick with my ARs, but 30-30 is nothing to sneeze at and the ability to "top up" the magazine of a Model 94 and similar lever guns mitigates the limited capacity tubular mag somewhat.  


Link Posted: 3/24/2014 12:08:30 AM EDT
[#2]
Yes, they can work.. However trainer John Farnam observes that they will seize up if shot enough to get hot, sees it in his carbine classes.
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 12:30:39 AM EDT
[#3]
Okay, here is what I don't understand.  The rifle is outdated.  Big deal.  You aren't going to combat with the firearm, you aren't going over seas with the firearm, you're using it for self defense and survival.  If you are running and gunning and getting your lever action hot enough that it begins to seize, you are no longer in a situation where 'survival' is on your mind in terms of actually living because you are so far in combat with a gun that doesn't have suppressive fire capabilities nor the ability to reload quickly.

It's a lever action, if you're trying to find justification to own one by thinking it can do what an AR15 can do, then do yourself a favor and don't buy it.

I own lever actions because they are beautiful, hard working firearms.  The 30-30 is a great round for medium game and people.  Face it.  Millions of deer and hundreds and hundreds of people have been killed by the 30-30.  Why stop there?  Get a 45-70.  Load it up hot and you'll be able to kill anything that walks, crawls, hobbles and chirps on the great American continent.  Lever actions are also easily maintained, compact, and you can walk into any gun store and buy ammunition.  They do NOT excel in reloading and they are not a self loading firearm and they are not that accurate out to 300 yards and more.

If you are worried about survival situations out in the wild, I think our American frontiersman did just well enough with lever actions and single shot rifles.

Pick your poison.  I did, I have 15 lever actions.  Every gun collection needs at least one.



Link Posted: 3/24/2014 1:19:42 AM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
Okay, here is what I don't understand.  The rifle is outdated.  Big deal.  You aren't going to combat with the firearm, you aren't going over seas with the firearm, you're using it for self defense and survival.  If you are running and gunning and getting your lever action hot enough that it begins to seize, you are no longer in a situation where 'survival' is on your mind in terms of actually living because you are so far in combat with a gun that doesn't have suppressive fire capabilities nor the ability to reload quickly.

It's a lever action, if you're trying to find justification to own one by thinking it can do what an AR15 can do, then do yourself a favor and don't buy it.





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x2     -         Far too many people  on Arfcom fantasize about engaging the enemy with their toys  ---- blue beret'ed monkey suits coming to take our stuff !  

------   I have a handful of leverguns because they are more fun than AR's   --- because every trip to the range is not a "training session" - and because in a lot of elements, - they are still darn effective firearms for many reasons
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 6:55:37 AM EDT
[#5]
They are the Chevy 350 of the gun world. They are as common as housecats in a large portion of the country, as is ammo. They are rugged, reliable, decently accurate, and pack a fair punch at short to mid range. Depending on which configuration (barrel length, etc), they can be quite a fast handling little unit. Being able to add a round or two on the fly is also a likable feature. I have a Winchester and a Marlin (I prefer the Marlin).

Chus doo eet
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 9:07:59 AM EDT
[#6]
The SKS would be a better options but with less of them being on the market and increasing in price with no warranties the .30-30 lever gun (marlin, Winchester, or henry) is a very viable options. although at short ranges Id toss up the idea of getting into a 38spcl/357 mag mainly for capacity wise over the 30-30.
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 9:12:59 AM EDT
[#7]
OP, in the 1880, the militaries of the world had the opportunity, go with the lever action or the bolt action. The bolt won. Stronger, easier to use in action prone, more accurate. Less parts breakage.

I know you like your 30-30, but you would be better off with a 8mm Mauser.
I have a very beautiful octagonal barrel 30-30 almost 100 years ago and I like shooting with it, but I won't be carrying it with me if the SHTF.

Some other advantages of a military bolt action over a modern lever action:
1) Stripper clips are faster loading
2) Safer
3) Better long range capability
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 10:59:57 AM EDT
[#8]
Thanks to all for the great thoughts on this.  Someone above descrived the .30-30 lever action as a "working gun", and that really resonated with me.  Obviously it's not going to fit all the gun needs perfectly, but to me it seems like it's in the "sweet spot".  I guess what remains now is to find the right product.
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 11:27:06 AM EDT
[#9]
While I own a 30-30 and love to shoot it along with all my other lever action rifles, the fact is that as a defensive rifle, long stroke and clunky action, low capacity, and middling performance of the 30-30 round make it a poor first choice for a defensive weapon.  With practice, it can be employed somewhat quickly, however, it's action's basic design wasn't intended for rapid use so it's difficult to rapid fire it.  The fact is that it still is a wonderful eastern deer hunting rifle but not a highly capable short range defensive weapon.





A much better levergun for defensive role would the Winchester Model 1892 style rifles and/or carbines.  The model '92, designed for the much shorter pistol length cartridges, has a much faster cycling action and therefore
can be cycled much faster and easier.  Couple that with it much higher ammo capacity and one has a platform that, as a levergun is fast, light, and quickly employable. Further, unlike the earlier, weaker design of the 1866 and 1873 Winchester rifles, the 1892's action is strong enough to easily handle modern full power magnum pistol calibers such as 357mag, 44mag, full power 45 Colt, and even the 454 Casull.





These magnum pistol calibers, when fired through a carbine or rifle length barrel produce impressive velocity and muzzle energy gains over those found in a pistol (hundreds of fps and hundreds of ft/lbs muzzle energy increases).  These increases give all the caliber choices the enhanced performance to provide significant stopping power while producing reasonably manageable recoil due to the weight and ergonomics of the rifle vs pistol.  Further, muzzle blast, flash, and report are reduced due to the longer barrel length.





In addition, because the current legalities concerning employment of lethal force with a defensive weapon require that it only be used in a short range situation i.e., the threat must be imminent, say no more than 20 - 30 feet (threats at longer distances are not considered imminent danger legally and one is generally expected to flee rather than fight).  This means that a pistol caliber rifle or carbine produces perfectly adequate performance at this limited range.



 
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 11:40:12 AM EDT
[#10]
For years my wife had a Colt Mustang for her bedside gun. She NEVER would practice with it. If I left it Cocked and Locked, I was afraid she should forget the thumb safety!

She now has a Hartford Arms (Rossi) 92 in  .45Colt. No Safeties, 10 rounds as fast as she can work the lever. 250 gr flat nosed lead. Even with VERY little practice it would be hard to screw up even in a panic for a 100lbs. 5' tall woman.
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 11:57:17 AM EDT
[#11]
Speaking from a conservative side, the .30-30 lever action is a very useful modern day survival weapon.
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 12:05:22 PM EDT
[#12]
Is it on my list of rifles every red blooded American should own? Yes.

Is it capable of being a good self-defense or survival weapon? Yes

Is it an ideal choice? Far from it.

I love the ones I've had over the years. I've shot a hell of a lot of ammo through them and killed a lot of stuff.

It isn't my go-to weapon for anything.
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 12:09:04 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:
Is it on my list of rifles every red blooded American should own? Yes.

Is it capable of being a good self-defense or survival weapon? Yes

Is it an ideal choice? Far from it.

I love the ones I've had over the years. I've shot a hell of a lot of ammo through them and killed a lot of stuff.

It isn't my go-to weapon for anything.
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THIS ---- Bad choice for a SHTF scenario due to reloading rifle speed issues, cost of cartridges, speed and heating issues.  Good for the old days, not now IMHO.
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 12:19:42 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:


THIS ---- Bad choice for a SHTF scenario due to reloading rifle speed issues, cost of cartridges, speed and heating issues.  Good for the old days, not now IMHO.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Is it on my list of rifles every red blooded American should own? Yes.

Is it capable of being a good self-defense or survival weapon? Yes

Is it an ideal choice? Far from it.

I love the ones I've had over the years. I've shot a hell of a lot of ammo through them and killed a lot of stuff.

It isn't my go-to weapon for anything.


THIS ---- Bad choice for a SHTF scenario due to reloading rifle speed issues, cost of cartridges, speed and heating issues.  Good for the old days, not now IMHO.

I don't remember the OP mentioning SHTF. If it sits next to your nightstand for self defence your ammo corroding is a bigger concern than cost of ammo. I'm pretty sure you can empty one into an intruder without it over heating. Survival, as in my truck broke down in the wilderness? Certainly could put meat on the campfire in 30-30 or pistol calibers and pretty much stop any animal, on two of four legs, intent on making you a meal.
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 12:25:41 PM EDT
[#15]
One thing to bear in mind...

The 'thuddy-thuddy' is as American as apple pie.  It will never be banned, outlawed, regulated or maligned out of existence. It is the penultimate 'sporting purpose' rifle.  

I own two, I have hundreds of rounds for them.

They are not my 'go to' guns for things bumping in the night, but, if the political winds keep blowing ill, and 'sniper rifles' come back on the chopping block, or 'military ammo' becomes a target for bans/confiscation .... that 30-30 sitting in the back of the safe will weather the storm and be juuuust as deadly as ever.

TRG

Link Posted: 3/24/2014 12:58:20 PM EDT
[#16]
Drive around with a 30-30 in the back window of your truck and nobody thinks anything about it.
But, replace it with an evil, black "assault" rifle and smell the FUD.
Link Posted: 3/24/2014 11:41:33 PM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
A much better levergun for defensive role would the Winchester Model 1892 style rifles and/or carbines.  The model '92, designed for the much shorter pistol length cartridges, has a much faster cycling action and therefore can be cycled much faster and easier.  Couple that with it much higher ammo capacity and one has a platform that, as a levergun is fast, light, and quickly employable. Further, unlike the earlier, weaker design of the 1866 and 1873 Winchester rifles, the 1892's action is strong enough to easily handle modern full power magnum pistol calibers such as 357mag, 44mag, full power 45 Colt, and even the 454 Casull.

These magnum pistol calibers, when fired through a carbine or rifle length barrel produce impressive velocity and muzzle energy gains over those found in a pistol (hundreds of fps and hundreds of ft/lbs muzzle energy increases).  These increases give all the caliber choices the enhanced performance to provide significant stopping power while producing reasonably manageable recoil due to the weight and ergonomics of the rifle vs pistol.  Further, muzzle blast, flash, and report are reduced due to the longer barrel length.

In addition, because the current legalities concerning employment of lethal force with a defensive weapon require that it only be used in a short range situation i.e., the threat must be imminent, say no more than 20 - 30 feet (threats at longer distances are not considered imminent danger legally and one is generally expected to flee rather than fight).  This means that a pistol caliber rifle or carbine produces perfectly adequate performance at this limited range.
 
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Good points COSteve.  Those pistol caliber carbines are fun to shoot, too.  My buddy used to have a Winchester Trapper in .45 Long Colt.  I loved shooting that thing.  I also love the old IMI Timberwolf



I sure wish they still made those...


Link Posted: 3/25/2014 5:29:28 AM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:
While I own a 30-30 and love to shoot it along with all my other lever action rifles, the fact is that as a defensive rifle, long stroke and clunky action, low capacity, and middling performance of the 30-30 round make it a poor first choice for a defensive weapon.  With practice, it can be employed somewhat quickly, however, it's action's basic design wasn't intended for rapid use so it's difficult to rapid fire it.  The fact is that it still is a wonderful eastern deer hunting rifle but not a highly capable short range defensive weapon.

A much better levergun for defensive role would the Winchester Model 1892 style rifles and/or carbines.  The model '92, designed for the much shorter pistol length cartridges, has a much faster cycling action and therefore can be cycled much faster and easier.  Couple that with it much higher ammo capacity and one has a platform that, as a levergun is fast, light, and quickly employable. Further, unlike the earlier, weaker design of the 1866 and 1873 Winchester rifles, the 1892's action is strong enough to easily handle modern full power magnum pistol calibers such as 357mag, 44mag, full power 45 Colt, and even the 454 Casull.

These magnum pistol calibers, when fired through a carbine or rifle length barrel produce impressive velocity and muzzle energy gains over those found in a pistol (hundreds of fps and hundreds of ft/lbs muzzle energy increases).  These increases give all the caliber choices the enhanced performance to provide significant stopping power while producing reasonably manageable recoil due to the weight and ergonomics of the rifle vs pistol.  Further, muzzle blast, flash, and report are reduced due to the longer barrel length.

In addition, because the current legalities concerning employment of lethal force with a defensive weapon require that it only be used in a short range situation i.e., the threat must be imminent, say no more than 20 - 30 feet (threats at longer distances are not considered imminent danger legally and one is generally expected to flee rather than fight). This means that a pistol caliber rifle or carbine produces perfectly adequate performance at this limited range.
 
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BS. I've never seen any kind of law that defines self-defense or a duty to retreat, if any, based on the distance between the defender and aggressor. It may be (and often is) a good idea to seek a retreat if the aggressor is far enough away, unskilled, whatever in such a way as to make that possible...but even in CA there's nothing codified into law about distances.
Imminence of a threat is not solely a function of distance. It's a "totality of the circumstances" deal.
Likewise, duty to retreat is not dependent on distance. If you have a legally codified duty to retreat, that exists regardless of distance to threat.

If offering such a claim about laws, please do back them up with a cite.

As to the general gist of the rest of your post, I'd second the idea that a pistol-caliber lever action could arguably be a better choice than a .30-30.
Link Posted: 3/25/2014 11:22:48 AM EDT
[#19]
I don't know what the laws are in California being that it's almost impossible to defend yourself there without getting prosecuted, but here in Colorado, while you have the absolute right to defend yourself from 'imminent' danger to you or another, you don't have the right to take out someone threatening you from a distance as they don't constitute an 'imminent' threat.  In our CCW classes the lawyers stress that 20-30ft is considered imminent, but much farther isn't.  That's not to say if you are under fire at longer range you can't return fire, but the farther the threat is from you, the more options the state expects you to consider.
Link Posted: 3/25/2014 1:48:23 PM EDT
[#20]
There was a shooting down in Texas I believe within the last several years where a gentleman used a revolver to shoot at a guy over 100 yards away.  Did so to defend a cop that was in a gunfight with the bad guy.  20 something years ago, in Texas again, a guy used a 1911 to engage a guy with an AK from about 75 yards (the courthouse shootout).  One in a million situations perhaps, but it is within the realm of possibilities.  Both shootings were justifiable in that they were in the defense of other people in immediate life threatening danger.

I've got a couple of 30-30s, but I'd grab a shotgun or AR first myself.
Link Posted: 3/25/2014 2:03:24 PM EDT
[#21]
I think it's a good option. I recently found this video and thought it was kinda cool.

Modestly upgraded Marlin 336BL for HD use.
Link Posted: 3/25/2014 8:48:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Link Posted: 3/25/2014 8:59:40 PM EDT
[#23]
Sure, good, but an AK or SKS would be more useful in a wider range of situations with similar ballistics. A "thuty-thuty" might be adequate for defense but higher capacity, faster reloads and quicker shooting can make a big difference in a fight.
Link Posted: 3/26/2014 3:18:04 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:


THIS ---- Bad choice for a SHTF scenario due to reloading rifle speed issues, cost of cartridges, speed and heating issues.  Good for the old days, not now IMHO.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Is it on my list of rifles every red blooded American should own? Yes.

Is it capable of being a good self-defense or survival weapon? Yes

Is it an ideal choice? Far from it.

I love the ones I've had over the years. I've shot a hell of a lot of ammo through them and killed a lot of stuff.

It isn't my go-to weapon for anything.


THIS ---- Bad choice for a SHTF scenario due to reloading rifle speed issues, cost of cartridges, speed and heating issues.  Good for the old days, not now IMHO.



  • Reloading speed --- a lever action and a shotgun both share this trait, but not many question a shotgun's defense role
    Cost of cartridges -- the 30 WCF is routinely one of the cheapest centerfire cartridges on the shelves anywhere outside of plinking grade 5.56 and 7.62-39
    Speed - go shoot one, they're not slow
    heating issues -- given the slower reload speeds vs slamming home a mag and hitting the bolt catch, -- this will never be a problem outside of fanciful range situations  --- but admittedly, its not the right tool for laying down suppressive fire


Link Posted: 3/26/2014 4:34:46 PM EDT
[#25]


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Quoted:



There was a shooting down in Texas I believe within the last several years where a gentleman used a revolver to shoot at a guy over 100 yards away.  Did so to defend a cop that was in a gunfight with the bad guy.  20 something years ago, in Texas again, a guy used a 1911 to engage a guy with an AK from about 75 yards (the courthouse shootout).  One in a million situations perhaps, but it is within the realm of possibilities.  Both shootings were justifiable in that they were in the defense of other people in immediate life threatening danger.





I've got a couple of 30-30s, but I'd grab a shotgun or AR first myself.
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Both good shoots because coming to the aide of someone under fire.  Besides, there is no prosecutor in the world who'll prosecute anyone who's coming to the aide of law enforcement under fire.  If the gentleman would have opened up on the BG with the main gun on a tank the DA would have called it a good shoot!





 
Link Posted: 3/26/2014 5:35:33 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:
OP, in the 1880, the militaries of the world had the opportunity, go with the lever action or the bolt action. The bolt won. Stronger, easier to use in action prone, more accurate. Less parts breakage.

I know you like your 30-30, but you would be better off with a 8mm Mauser.
I have a very beautiful octagonal barrel 30-30 almost 100 years ago and I like shooting with it, but I won't be carrying it with me if the SHTF.

Some other advantages of a military bolt action over a modern lever action:
1) Stripper clips are faster loading
2) Safer
3) Better long range capability
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In 1876, Custer was armed with the trap door Springfield cavalry carbine in .45-70, having just traded in the Sharps Cavalry carbine in the same caliber.  The Native Americans were not fully armed with rifles but had a fair number of lever action rifles.

If you tour the battle field - in stead of just watching some taking head talk about on a television special - and really observe the terrain from an infantry officer perspective, you'll note the subtle folds in the terrain and the various ranges involved.   You'll see where and in what parts of the engagement the longer ranged single shot carbine presented a tactical advantage, and you'll see the areas and engagement ranges where it was a liability that resulted in Custer's troops being badly outgunned.  In essence, in areas where the rangers were 300-400 yards, the .45-70 single shot carbine was superior, however as the natives closed the range to 150 yards or less, the advantage went to the rapid firing lever guns.

The point here is that there are differences in where one or the other may be superior, depending on where they are used and comparing a carbine proposed for use in home defense or survival situations to a 20th century battle rifle is about as apples and oranges as it gets.  And it's not well thought out.    

The reality is that I can probably find .30-30 in pretty much any where while 8mm will be a lot harder to come by, so regardless of a bolt rifle's superiority in 8mm Mauser, once you run out of ammo you'll have club and I'll have a carbine able to connect at 250 yards.

Then there is the whole portability issue.   In my first deer hunt in wooded terrain when I was 12 or so, I had a very nice Mauser 98 based sporting rifle in .243 Win and I looked down my nose at the poor souls with there lever action .30-30s.  Of course by about new after hauling that scoped Model 98 all over God's creation and realizing that 1 MOA accuracy and a flat shooting round offered no real advantage when the shooting ranges were going to be 100 yards or less, I envied those folks with their well balanced and very easy to carry lever action .30-30s, especially in areas with dense jack pine where a slimmer more maneuverable carbine was much handier.  

I don't have that Mauser any more as it ceased being useful, but I still have a Model 94 in 30-30.

------

I have a well stocked gun vault and if I'm picking a rifle to put behind the seat in a Cub in case I have to walk home, I can choose from a variety of weapons including a very nice lightweight AR-15, plus a .22 LR conversion kit, a 20" Model 92 in .45 Colt, a 24" Model 92 takedown in .45 Colt, a 16" Model 94 in .45 Colt, an M6 Scout in either .22 Hornet and .410 or .22LR and .410, a Model 94 in .30-30, a Big Bore 94 in .375 Win, and a couple of 9422s in 16" and 21" barrel lengths.  

All offer various pros and cons.   The AR-15 weighs 5.6 pounds with a sling, is accurate out to 250-300 yards, and could use .22LR for small game, which is both a lot quieter and allows more rounds per pound carried than .223, even when you factor in the weight of the conversion kit and magazine in addition to the .223 bolt and magazine.

The 9422 is a take down design with a single screw that if you replace it with a thumbscrew or saddle ring requires no tools.  The 16" Trapper model is very compact and easy to carry yet is still very accurate out to around 75 yards on rabbit sized game.  

The 20" Model 92 in .45 Colt is a joy to carry are very skink and fast in operation is very effective out to 100-150 yards.  But while the rounds are reasonably compact they are just as heavy as a .30-30 round, and heavier than a .223.   The 24" Model 92 takedown is easy to store, but not quite as accurate and a bit heavier to carry.

The .30-30 has about 95% of the handling ease of the slightly shorter 20" Model 92 and about 90% of the smoothness, and it's more accurate and has a point blank effective  range of 235 yards with enough poke to o well on deer, and black bear and elk at shorter ranges.  

----

So if it's an area where subsisting on small game is the most likely approach, I'll take the 9422 Trapper.  It and a couple hundred rounds of ammo does not take up much space or weight.  There's also no problem taking it into Canada,  where the semi auto rifle/center fire/shorter than 18" barrel restrictions are an issue for a 16" AR-15.   (It might technically be legal with the .22 conversion kit installed and with the .223 bolt left at home as it's now not a centerfire, but I'm not going to take the risk that customs will disagree with me and seize it.)

If it's an area where the emphasis would be on larger game, or where personal protection is a bigger need, then I'll take a Model 94 in .30-30, or the BB94 in .375 Win.

----

And for home defense, a lever action carbine offers some significant advantages over an AR-15 in terms of user friendliness, reliability and muzzle blast, and it does not give up all that much in terms of handling or rate of fire in real world practical, non-combat, non zombie horde home defense scenarios.

 






 

Link Posted: 3/27/2014 4:09:52 AM EDT
[#27]
To the OP's question:  If all you have is a 30-30 lever action it will certainly provide for your protection in most situations.  If you're looking to buy a gun for self-protection there are several better choices.  The bargain basement self-defense rifle is still the SKS carbine if you consider the cost of say 500rds of ammo.  The 30-30 and 7.62x39 are almost identical in performance and the 7.62 ammo is still cheaper to buy in bulk.  Not only is the SKS faster to load and holds more ammo initially, it was designed for extensive rapid firing whereas no lever gun ever was.  I have several lever guns, including a 30-30 and a few pistol cartridge models and although I wouldn't throw a loaded one down to pick up something else in most firefights, they wouldn't be what I would pick up knowing the shit was about to hit the fan.

As far as distance being an issue in a self defense situation, Oklahoma is pretty liberal about shooting the hell out of someone attacking you...within reason.  You pop someone holding a knife at 50 to 75 yards with a rifle and you're going to have problems justifying the shoot where if they are 20-30 feet away and advancing they're pretty much bought and paid for.

One thing I didn't see mentioned is the fact that lever guns don't attract a lot of political attention the way semi-autos do.  Maybe something to consider.

Rob
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 9:48:21 AM EDT
[#28]
I said no, for the single reason that ammo MAY not be as universally available as it once was.  Will ammunition makers contiue to load 30-30 when the masses are clamoring for .22lr, .223 and .308?  I am looking at the question as a new procurement for someone who has no ammunition...  If you have a stash of ammunition, reload for it and many others in your group using the same thing....ROCK ON.
M2C
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 10:05:12 AM EDT
[#29]
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 10:52:54 AM EDT
[#30]
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I handled one the other day ... man, it wasn't bad.

Already threaded for a suppressor as well.

TRG
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 1:43:25 PM EDT
[#31]

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Quoted:


I said no, for the single reason that ammo MAY not be as universally available as it once was.  Will ammunition makers contiue to load 30-30 when the masses are clamoring for .22lr, .223 and .308?  I am looking at the question as a new procurement for someone who has no ammunition...  If you have a stash of ammunition, reload for it and many others in your group using the same thing....ROCK ON.

M2C
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You can still find it, but it's   harder to get than it was before the panic. Prvi Partisan is somewhere around $12 per box around me. Winchester is $15-$17. The problem in NJ is that everyone thought ARs would be banned and bought them all. Then once the AR supply was gone, they bought lever actions that wouldn't be banned,  so the demand for .30-30 is higher than usual.



 
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 2:56:52 PM EDT
[#32]
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You can still find it, but it's   harder to get than it was before the panic. Prvi Partisan is somewhere around $12 per box around me. Winchester is $15-$17. The problem in NJ is that everyone thought ARs would be banned and bought them all. Then once the AR supply was gone, they bought lever actions that wouldn't be banned,  so the demand for .30-30 is higher than usual.
 
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I said no, for the single reason that ammo MAY not be as universally available as it once was.  Will ammunition makers contiue to load 30-30 when the masses are clamoring for .22lr, .223 and .308?  I am looking at the question as a new procurement for someone who has no ammunition...  If you have a stash of ammunition, reload for it and many others in your group using the same thing....ROCK ON.
M2C
You can still find it, but it's   harder to get than it was before the panic. Prvi Partisan is somewhere around $12 per box around me. Winchester is $15-$17. The problem in NJ is that everyone thought ARs would be banned and bought them all. Then once the AR supply was gone, they bought lever actions that wouldn't be banned,  so the demand for .30-30 is higher than usual.
 

I have a LOT of 38/357 brass, bullets, molds, power, primers and a good stash of ammunition so I bought a Rossi model 92 in 357.  I figure the last they will take will that and the Blackhawk (also 357)... Down here in VA the 30-30 went almost as fast as the 223 and 308.  I did see a fair supply of 7mm all the time in wally worlds.  Could not pay me to get into a new caliber right now.....
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 6:58:58 AM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:
To the OP's question:  If all you have is a 30-30 lever action it will certainly provide for your protection in most situations.  If you're looking to buy a gun for self-protection there are several better choices.  The bargain basement self-defense rifle is still the SKS carbine if you consider the cost of say 500rds of ammo.  The 30-30 and 7.62x39 are almost identical in performance and the 7.62 ammo is still cheaper to buy in bulk.  Not only is the SKS faster to load and holds more ammo initially, it was designed for extensive rapid firing whereas no lever gun ever was.  I have several lever guns, including a 30-30 and a few pistol cartridge models and although I wouldn't throw a loaded one down to pick up something else in most firefights, they wouldn't be what I would pick up knowing the shit was about to hit the fan.

As far as distance being an issue in a self defense situation, Oklahoma is pretty liberal about shooting the hell out of someone attacking you...within reason.  You pop someone holding a knife at 50 to 75 yards with a rifle and you're going to have problems justifying the shoot where if they are 20-30 feet away and advancing they're pretty much bought and paid for.

One thing I didn't see mentioned is the fact that lever guns don't attract a lot of political attention the way semi-autos do.  Maybe something to consider.

Rob
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Political attention is why lever actions are sometimes called Urban Assault Rifles. They can be particularly useful in jurisdictions where ARs are not.

That said, while I have Marlin lever guns in .357, .44, .45 and .30-30, I think my 16" 94C .357 would be the best truck gun of the bunch.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 8:22:40 PM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:
Speaking from a conservative side, the .30-30 lever action is a very useful modern day survival weapon.
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Agreed. It would not be my first choice, one of my ARs would be as they are superior in every way they can be measured. That said, if all I had was a mossberg, marlin or winchester lever gun in 30-30 I would not feel unarmed in the least.
Link Posted: 3/29/2014 3:02:53 AM EDT
[#35]
I was going to say No but voted Yes.

Any firearm is better than none.  Any firearm your wife will use and carry is better than none.  They are simple to operate, too.  

It's probably important to distinguish between the scenarios -  home defense, survival and community defense are all different.  It is a better fit for some than others.  For survival, it's great.
Link Posted: 3/29/2014 2:08:42 PM EDT
[#36]



Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




I was going to say No but voted Yes.






It's probably important to distinguish between the scenarios -  home defense, survival and community defense are all different.  It is a better fit for some than others.  For survival, it's great.
View Quote




I'd have to disagree that a 30-30 is a good choice for survival gun caliber due to the cost and size of ammo.  A pistol caliber levergun, say a 357mag, is much better suited for survival in my book because it's ammo is cheaper and one can carry a sizable quantity of it much more easily.  Further, adding 38spl to the mix gives the weapon a much broader mix of ammo for a wider variety of game; squirrels to deer.  Small game isn't a 30-30's forte.
 
Link Posted: 3/29/2014 2:09:34 PM EDT
[#37]

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MY EYES, MY EYES!!!!!!!



 
Link Posted: 4/3/2014 1:29:24 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I'd have to disagree that a 30-30 is a good choice for survival gun caliber due to the cost and size of ammo.  A pistol caliber levergun, say a 357mag, is much better suited for survival in my book because it's ammo is cheaper and one can carry a sizable quantity of it much more easily.  Further, adding 38spl to the mix gives the weapon a much broader mix of ammo for a wider variety of game; squirrels to deer.  Small game isn't a 30-30's forte.
 
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I was going to say No but voted Yes.

It's probably important to distinguish between the scenarios -  home defense, survival and community defense are all different.  It is a better fit for some than others.  For survival, it's great.

I'd have to disagree that a 30-30 is a good choice for survival gun caliber due to the cost and size of ammo.  A pistol caliber levergun, say a 357mag, is much better suited for survival in my book because it's ammo is cheaper and one can carry a sizable quantity of it much more easily.  Further, adding 38spl to the mix gives the weapon a much broader mix of ammo for a wider variety of game; squirrels to deer.  Small game isn't a 30-30's forte.
 



357 lever gives you the 38spl option, AND having a 357 revolver kicks it up a notch. Now if my efile suppressor would get approved. My 357 M92 is bored.
Link Posted: 4/3/2014 7:58:26 AM EDT
[#39]
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That is just SO VERY WRONG!

Rob


Link Posted: 4/3/2014 6:38:35 PM EDT
[#40]
Having a 30-30 is better than having nothing, so will it function as a survival rifle? Yep. It'll take most game in North America, including moose, without issue.
Link Posted: 4/4/2014 1:03:08 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I'd have to disagree that a 30-30 is a good choice for survival gun caliber due to the cost and size of ammo.  A pistol caliber levergun, say a 357mag, is much better suited for survival in my book because it's ammo is cheaper and one can carry a sizable quantity of it much more easily.  Further, adding 38spl to the mix gives the weapon a much broader mix of ammo for a wider variety of game; squirrels to deer.  Small game isn't a 30-30's forte.
 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I was going to say No but voted Yes.

It's probably important to distinguish between the scenarios -  home defense, survival and community defense are all different.  It is a better fit for some than others.  For survival, it's great.

I'd have to disagree that a 30-30 is a good choice for survival gun caliber due to the cost and size of ammo.  A pistol caliber levergun, say a 357mag, is much better suited for survival in my book because it's ammo is cheaper and one can carry a sizable quantity of it much more easily.  Further, adding 38spl to the mix gives the weapon a much broader mix of ammo for a wider variety of game; squirrels to deer.  Small game isn't a 30-30's forte.
 


Quoted:
Having a 30-30 is better than having nothing, so will it function as a survival rifle? Yep. It'll take most game in North America, including moose, without issue.



This is the context I had in mind - it's much better than nothing, will work on game, will work in a simple self defense scenarios, etc.  

IMO, it is not a good choice for "community defense" (limited para-military scenario) because you are likely facing semi-auto and automatic weapons.  At least, that's the scenario I envision.

You have to establish context to make any sense of a ridiculous question such as the one posed by this thread.
Link Posted: 4/11/2014 10:58:58 PM EDT
[#42]
The 30-30 is a very practical rifle for most uses, it is light, easy to shoot, holds a decent number of rounds on board, is easy to top off while still remaining in battery (particularly for left handed shooters) has adequate punch for most North American animals, is effective in defensive shootings.  It has adequate range for most realistic uses, particularly in wooded areas I know people say they are limited to 250 yards or so but where I spend most of my time, if I am 100 yards away from you the odds of you seeing me unless I want you to are very slim..  All they really need is a good receiver sight, a way to carry extra ammo that is secure but readily available, and a good carry strap.  If you want to deal with a little more weight and bulk, you could add a micro dot type sight or even a 1x3 or 4 scope.

It does not have the rate of fire or range of an AR or M1A. It doesn't have the accuracy of a good bolt gun.  It also doesn't have the protrusions of the AR, or the bulk and weight of the others.

I carried one for years as a patrol rifle back before they were called patrol rifles.  It was super easy to carry, didn't get snagged on stuff when carried in more relaxed positions, didn't have a lot of protrusions to poke you when it was slung.  Came to the shoulder fast and the sights were where they needed to be when it got there.  Was easy to carry on horseback, on foot or a vehicle.  As I mentioned earlier it could be reloaded while still in battery.  It held 6 +1 which by todays standards is low capacity but at the time, that was one more round than was in my sidearm, a S&W model 66 held, and I had a fold up cartridge carrier that went on my belt that held 12 more rounds for my rifle..  In a way, I kind of miss the days when you could hit the woods tracking a criminal and not have 30 pounds of "tactical" gear strapped to you, but times have changed, some for the better and some for the worse.

As far as a "survival" situation, you can feed yourself and others quite well with a 30-30 if you are any kind of hunter at all, and in the defensive situation, if you are by yourself and need a high rate of sustained fire you are in big trouble anyway, your best option is stealth, cover and concealment rather than the wall of lead.  It is not a perfect choice, but I am not sure the perfect choice exists.  If I found myself in most any realistic "bad" situation in a rural environment with a 30-30 and adequate ammo, my weapon would not cause me a lot of concern.  Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to do a tour in Afghanistan with a lever action rifle but that is a totally different situation that what I envision for your use of the rifle.

Also as other posters have pointed out, grandpas deer rifle does particularly raise concern to much of anyone as opposed to some of the defensive/survival firearms discussed.
Link Posted: 4/12/2014 10:45:54 AM EDT
[#43]
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Quoted:



Agreed. It would not be my first choice, one of my ARs would be as they are superior in every way they can be measured. .
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Speaking from a conservative side, the .30-30 lever action is a very useful modern day survival weapon.



Agreed. It would not be my first choice, one of my ARs would be as they are superior in every way they can be measured. .



except knockdown power  (assuming a 5.56 AR and not an alternative caliber) -- a true medium size game cartridge trumps a prairie dog cartridge in that regard   ---  although magazine capacity of 6 vs 30 is a compelling argument
Link Posted: 4/12/2014 5:23:37 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The 30-30 is a very practical rifle for most uses, it is light, easy to shoot, holds a decent number of rounds on board, is easy to top off while still remaining in battery (particularly for left handed shooters) has adequate punch for most North American animals, is effective in defensive shootings.  It has adequate range for most realistic uses, particularly in wooded areas I know people say they are limited to 250 yards or so but where I spend most of my time, if I am 100 yards away from you the odds of you seeing me unless I want you to are very slim..  All they really need is a good receiver sight, a way to carry extra ammo that is secure but readily available, and a good carry strap.  If you want to deal with a little more weight and bulk, you could add a micro dot type sight or even a 1x3 or 4 scope.

It does not have the rate of fire or range of an AR or M1A. It doesn't have the accuracy of a good bolt gun.  It also doesn't have the protrusions of the AR, or the bulk and weight of the others.

I carried one for years as a patrol rifle back before they were called patrol rifles.  It was super easy to carry, didn't get snagged on stuff when carried in more relaxed positions, didn't have a lot of protrusions to poke you when it was slung.  Came to the shoulder fast and the sights were where they needed to be when it got there.  Was easy to carry on horseback, on foot or a vehicle.  As I mentioned earlier it could be reloaded while still in battery.  It held 6 +1 which by todays standards is low capacity but at the time, that was one more round than was in my sidearm, a S&W model 66 held, and I had a fold up cartridge carrier that went on my belt that held 12 more rounds for my rifle..  In a way, I kind of miss the days when you could hit the woods tracking a criminal and not have 30 pounds of "tactical" gear strapped to you, but times have changed, some for the better and some for the worse.

As far as a "survival" situation, you can feed yourself and others quite well with a 30-30 if you are any kind of hunter at all, and in the defensive situation, if you are by yourself and need a high rate of sustained fire you are in big trouble anyway, your best option is stealth, cover and concealment rather than the wall of lead.  It is not a perfect choice, but I am not sure the perfect choice exists.  If I found myself in most any realistic "bad" situation in a rural environment with a 30-30 and adequate ammo, my weapon would not cause me a lot of concern.  Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to do a tour in Afghanistan with a lever action rifle but that is a totally different situation that what I envision for your use of the rifle.

Also as other posters have pointed out, grandpas deer rifle does particularly raise concern to much of anyone as opposed to some of the defensive/survival firearms discussed.
View Quote


Nice post
Link Posted: 4/12/2014 9:03:56 PM EDT
[#45]

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Quoted:


OP, in the 1880, the militaries of the world had the opportunity, go with the lever action or the bolt action. The bolt won. Stronger, easier to use in action prone, more accurate. Less parts breakage.



I know you like your 30-30, but you would be better off with a 8mm Mauser.

I have a very beautiful octagonal barrel 30-30 almost 100 years ago and I like shooting with it, but I won't be carrying it with me if the SHTF.



Some other advantages of a military bolt action over a modern lever action:

1) Stripper clips are faster loading

2) Safer

3) Better long range capability
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One big reason that leverguns were not widely used worldwide was becasue they were a uniquely American design. A big reason they were not used widely in the US is because th action is a little harder to manipulate prone. The realy big reason they were not really considered in the US as a military rifle is because the US military was very much set against repeating rifles, even into the first bolt actions. Both the Krag and the 1903 rifles had magazine cut-offs, and were intended to be fired single shot in most situations.



Leverguns were used only in limited numbers - Henrys in the civil war (The Spencer was used quite a bit in the Civil War and in the Indian Wars, some would consider it to count a a lever-action, some would not), and 1894s and 1895s were used by the US military in a number of rolls (1895s were even issued in WWII).



1894s were purchased by several European militaries in small quantities and saw service in Africa. Pancho Villa's troops made heavy use of both 1894s and 1895s, as well as various other leverguns, and the majority of 1895 Winchesters went to Russia for military service. The Canadian military made use of leverguns as well. The Turks used 1876 rifles. The Swiss liked the 1876, but not the lever, so they built a bolt-action rifle based on the 1876, with a tubular magazine and loading gate.



One disadvantage to traditional lever-action rifles for military use is that many of them are fairly weak in the tang area (wrist) of the stock. You will notice that most wood-stocked military rifles are thicker in the wrist than their civilian counterparts. They are harder to clean, too.



 
Link Posted: 4/13/2014 1:05:15 PM EDT
[#46]
STAY AWAY FROM LEVER"S.  Once bitten, you are gone forever.


Link Posted: 4/13/2014 1:20:32 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I said no, for the single reason that ammo MAY not be as universally available as it once was.  Will ammunition makers contiue to load 30-30 when the masses are clamoring for .22lr, .223 and .308?  I am looking at the question as a new procurement for someone who has no ammunition...  If you have a stash of ammunition, reload for it and many others in your group using the same thing....ROCK ON.
M2C
View Quote


My wal-mart can not keep 30-30 in stock.  It sales as soon as it hits the shelf.
Link Posted: 5/4/2014 10:17:04 PM EDT
[#48]
the 30-30 in any lever action is an American Classic. like another poster said.. Apple Pie.. Baseball... you name it.
there is not one thing that could happen in the future that the 30-30 hasn't already experienced and shined at it.

every able bodied male should have a 30-30 and a few hundred rounds.

we have several. my boy is just now getting to where he carries his automatically on his ATV. If I don't carry a 30-30, I carry a .444

lightweight, very handy- significant punch.
Link Posted: 6/4/2014 9:40:03 PM EDT
[#49]
A 30-30 lever gun will take care of 99% of problems you will encounter in your life.

Realistically train with it. In all probably you will never need to shoot more than 10 rounds to save your life. If you really look at the odds you would only need one.

Realistically practice for that one shot.
Link Posted: 6/6/2014 3:21:55 AM EDT
[#50]
Mel Tappan in Survival Guns didn't think much of the lever action for the purposes you stated. I think it had to do with the complexity of the action. US military never adopted it for general issue.
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