When is safe big/heavy enough to not need bolting down

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - When is safe big/heavy enough to not need bolting down

Posted: 12/3/2016 10:21:40 AM EDT

Is there a point where a safe is strong enough or heavy enough to not justify bolting it down to the floor?
Mine is heavy and strong enough that I am not worried about anyone being able to either break into it or to remove it from where it is located.
Opinions?

Posted: 12/3/2016 10:41:29 AM EDT

[#1]

It depends. We would be less likely to bolt a 5,000 pound safe in the middle of a jewelry store than we would be to bolt a 1,500 pound safe near the front door of a gun shop. In the second case, a burglar may be more likely to run a truck through the door and attempt to drag it out.

Around here it is fairly uncommon to have a safe over 500 pounds grow legs from a residence. When it does happen, it's always an inside job. Somebody had knowledge of where it was and what was in it prior to coming for it.

Posted: 12/3/2016 8:37:23 PM EDT

[#2]

Is there some reason not to bolt it down?

My .02, I would feel comfortable not bolting down 1500 lbs + with an alarm assuming the contents were insured.

Posted: 12/3/2016 9:41:59 PM EDT

[#3]

Thanks.

Posted: 12/4/2016 4:19:11 AM EDT

[#4]

Myself and one other guy moved a 900 lb safe by ourselves. Without a dolly. And tilted it up off a trailer and moved it into place.

With that in mind, I would say 5,000 lbs wouldn't need bolted down. The issue is not necessarily stealing the safe, but knocking it onto its back to get leverage to pry the doors open. If it's too heavy to knock over, that's heavy enough to not bolt down.

Remember, just because you can't bolt it down doesn't mean you can't bolt it back. Lag bolts into a wall will work wonders.

Posted: 12/4/2016 6:12:08 AM EDT

[#5]

I rent so it is an issue for me to bolt a safe down.

Posted: 12/4/2016 6:35:50 AM EDT

[#6]

If you got it in, someone else can get it out.

Posted: 12/4/2016 6:38:41 AM EDT

[#7]

If it ain't heavy enough, make it heavier. I know a guy who put a few hundred pounds of lead tire weights in the bottom on his.

Posted: 12/4/2016 7:03:46 AM EDT

[#8]

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If it ain't heavy enough, make it heavier. I know a guy who put a few hundred pounds of lead tire weights in the bottom on his.

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Agreed, half of my safe is fulled with ammo.

Posted: 12/4/2016 10:00:35 AM EDT

[#9]

if it can be knocked over, it is easier to pry open with leveage or use tools to attack the sides and or top which is typically easier to cut open compared to the door.

Posted: 12/4/2016 10:50:22 AM EDT

[#10]

Heard of local thieves using a cable on a wrecker to drag safe out of. a second story ... wrecked the house, took the safe.

Posted: 12/4/2016 11:41:15 AM EDT

[#11]

there's a saying, "give me a long enough lever and I can move the world." That being said, having a safe is better than not having a safe, bolting it down is better than not, but the vast majority of us can't be perfect. Everything that can be done is just buying you time. A layered approach buys you more time.

I cannot even start to imagine moving a 5,000 lb safe, especially into a home that I don't own. Renting also implies that you're more liquid in terms of movement. Can you imagine moving a 5,000 lbs safe multiple times?

Posted: 12/4/2016 11:59:26 AM EDT

[#12]

In my case, I purchased a used safe from a jewelry store that went out of business...got an incredible deal on a very heavy (>5500 lbs) TL-TR30x6.....so I guess I won't really worry about bolting it down.

Posted: 12/4/2016 12:05:39 PM EDT

[#13]

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In my case, I purchased a used safe from a jewelry store that went out of business...got an incredible deal on a very heavy (>5500 lbs) TL-TR30x6.....so I guess I won't really worry about bolting it down.

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Awesome

Posted: 12/5/2016 10:53:36 AM EDT

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:
In my case, I purchased a used safe from a jewelry store that went out of business...got an incredible deal on a very heavy (>5500 lbs) TL-TR30x6.....so I guess I won't really worry about bolting it down.

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I did the same thing, although mine is just a standard TL30, coming in at 3800lbs. When I did research about bolting it down, I believe it was roughly 2500 pounds. After that point if they have the ability to lift it, it'll sheer the bolts clean off.

At 5500, you don't need to bolt it. Even if someone used a tow truck with a winch, some bolts wouldn't slow it down.

Posted: 12/5/2016 12:23:03 PM EDT

[#15]

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If you got it in, someone else can get it out.

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pretty ignorant statement.. easy to move when empty.. not so much when it's got another 300#-500# of guns and gear in it..

Posted: 12/5/2016 1:52:37 PM EDT

[#16]

My safe was 4000lbs empty. With rifles, handguns, coins and other assorted valued items, I would guess my safe to be in the 4500-4800 lb range. I didnt bolt it down. If someone has the means to move a 4500lb block of steel, they also have the means to snap off two or three bolts trying to hold it down...

Posted: 12/5/2016 3:10:55 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
If it ain't heavy enough, make it heavier. I know a guy who put a few hundred pounds of lead tire weights in the bottom on his.

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Same here , just that I took the time to cast the weights into bullets and chose to store them with a like amount of powder cases and primers.

Like the other guys said , it is not so much hauling the safe away but flipping it over to cut/pry it open

Posted: 12/5/2016 5:40:04 PM EDT

[#18]

Quick side question that I believe does apply.

For a 2000LB safe, do you strongly recommend to bolt it down with all 4 bolts, or is 2 enough?

Posted: 12/5/2016 7:54:09 PM EDT

[#19]

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Quoted:
Quick side question that I believe does apply.

For a 2000LB safe, do you strongly recommend to bolt it down with all 4 bolts, or is 2 enough?

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If I had 4 bolt holes pre-drilled and I was going to the trouble to install 2 bolts I would do all 4. Just my opinion.

2000 lbs can walk away but not without quite a bit of effort.

Posted: 12/5/2016 8:18:42 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
My safe was 4000lbs empty. With rifles, handguns, coins and other assorted valued items, I would guess my safe to be in the 4500-4800 lb range. I didnt bolt it down. If someone has the means to move a 4500lb block of steel, they also have the means to snap off two or three bolts trying to hold it down...

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It's not about the means to do it, but rather to make as hard as possible at every turn. Trying to slow them down.
Dennis

Posted: 12/5/2016 9:14:51 PM EDT

[#21]

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Quoted:

pretty ignorant statement.. easy to move when empty.. not so much when it's got another 300#-500# of guns and gear in it..

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Another member of my gun club had his heavy, full safe make it through the house and onto the porch, fucking up the new floors in the process, while he was on vacation. His father just happened to stop by the house for something and discover the house had been robbed, and called the cops before they came back for the safe. It also was in a really difficult spot to put into in the first place, it took three guys to put in if iirc.*

* As told to me by his father.

Posted: 12/5/2016 11:02:36 PM EDT

[#22]

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Another member of my gun club had his heavy, full safe make it through the house and onto the porch, fucking up the new floors in the process, while he was on vacation. His father just happened to stop by the house for something and discover the house had been robbed, and called the cops before they came back for the safe. It also was in a really difficult spot to put into in the first place, it took three guys to put in if iirc.*

* As told to me by his father.

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And how much does a "heavy full safe" weigh? Because I bet most people think a 600lbs face is heavy.

Posted: 12/6/2016 1:22:26 AM EDT

[#23]

Keep in mind one of the reasons to bolt a safe down is to prevent it from tipping when the door is fully open and someone leans on the door.

Posted: 12/6/2016 6:38:57 AM EDT

[#24]

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And how much does a "heavy full safe" weigh? Because I bet most people think a 600lbs face is heavy.

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I don't know, but this guy has a lot of high end guns and cars so if I were to guess it was probably a high end safe. His father said they had a hell of a time getting it in the house in the first place.

Posted: 12/6/2016 10:02:03 AM EDT

[#25]

if you've got a "high end" safe and no security system on your house, you've got some messed up priorities..

good luck stealing anything of real value out of our house, local response time here in Alpharetta is about 4 minutes.

Posted: 12/6/2016 12:15:51 PM EDT

[#26]

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Quoted:
Keep in mind one of the reasons to bolt a safe down is to prevent it from tipping when the door is fully open and someone leans on the door.

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This. My 5400# safe will tip if the door is out 90* and someone pulls down on it. No thanks.

Posted: 12/6/2016 12:48:20 PM EDT

[#27]

Want to keep the calculation simple?

4"x1" diameter bolt has about 10,000lbs of pullout strength in concrete. Assuming the concrete doesn't fracture, 4 bolts may linearly increase that.

Posted: 12/6/2016 1:02:13 PM EDT

[#28]

This. My 5400# safe will tip if the door is out 90* and someone pulls down on it. No thanks.

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Horrible standard design which opens people up to all sorts of liability. A safe should never be tipsy in this manner. The only "exceptions" to this rule are custom built safes designed to fit into limited spaces where the bolting is expected as part of the original design.

I once had a custom built double door TL-30 that had a 1" plate body except for the back. It had two 1" plates to make sure the doors didn't tip it forward due to its shallow design.

Posted: 12/6/2016 1:23:28 PM EDT

[#29]

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Agreed, half of my safe is fulled with ammo.

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Thats what I do. I have about 40k rounds sitting in my safe. No idea how much weight that adds but it has to be a couple hundred pounds extra?

Posted: 12/6/2016 1:35:18 PM EDT

[#30]

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Quoted:
if it can be knocked over, it is easier to pry open with leveage or use tools to attack the sides and or top which is typically easier to cut open compared to the door.

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Typically the bottom of a conventional safe is the lightest structural part.

Posted: 12/6/2016 1:44:08 PM EDT

[#31]

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Even if someone used a tow truck with a winch, some bolts wouldn't slow it down.

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Yes they will, in a large way.
Using cheap, available everwhere wedge anchors in concrete will greatly (really greatly) increase the amount of pull needed to move a safe or anything for that matter.
A regular old wedge anchor, even in real small sizes like 1/4" will many times fail only when the surrounding concrete breaks out.
I've seen small carry deck inside cranes in the 12-15 ton range pick the back end with just two 1/4" Hilti wedge anchors (unseen) holding a cabinet down. The concrete eventually spalled and the cabinet was picked, but it was loud and unrully : )

Go to 1/2" + anchors and you gain some very significant pull out resistance.

Posted: 12/6/2016 2:09:16 PM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
If someone has the means to move a 4500lb block of steel, they also have the means to snap off two or three bolts trying to hold it down...

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No not really.
The anchor heads are INSIDE the safe. If they access them, then they can just tote off the contents and leave the safe.
A couple of 18 year old Millwright apprentices, with bad intent, can easily and efficiently move 4500 LB with just a few pieces of round stock and a couple of sleever bars. Give 'em a dolly or two and it will take them 1/10th the time.
A cheap old car hauler trailer with ramps and a winch and they are good to go.
Anchor that 4500 LB down and you have made their job much, much, much harder.
Keep in mind there are somewhat crooked people, who move really large, heavy things for a living.

Posted: 12/6/2016 4:08:54 PM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:
if it can be knocked over, it is easier to pry open with leveage or use tools to attack the sides and or top which is typically easier to cut open compared to the door.

View Quote

I can personally attest to this, as that's what happened to mine. I can also tell you that all that locks, safes, fences, etc. do is keep the honest man honest. If criminals can break into bank vaults, what makes you think you can make a small gun safe burglar-proof? They run off with whole ATMs all the time. The best thing you can do to protect yourself is to have good insurance. If the criminals want it, they're gonna take it. Period.

You can most certainly make your safe a pain in the ass for them to take or break into, but that's about it.

Posted: 12/7/2016 10:44:42 PM EDT

[#34]

I would not recommend having anything highly combustible inside the safe. A loaded mag or 2 may be ok, but my ammo is stored elsewhere.

Posted: 12/8/2016 6:29:53 AM EDT

[#35]

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Quoted:

Typically the bottom of a conventional safe is the lightest structural part.

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Very true, but with proper placement, even if it is knocked over, it has to be moved in order to expose the bottom to tools.

If installed properly, the bottom is the least vulnerable, which is why it is the softest spot

Posted: 12/8/2016 6:36:59 AM EDT

[#36]

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Quoted:

I can personally attest to this, as that's what happened to mine. I can also tell you that all that locks, safes, fences, etc. do is keep the honest man honest. If criminals can break into bank vaults, what makes you think you can make a small gun safe burglar-proof? They run off with whole ATMs all the time. The best thing you can do to protect yourself is to have good insurance. If the criminals want it, they're gonna take it. Period.

You can most certainly make your safe a pain in the ass for them to take or break into, but that's about it.

View Quote

it is all about 3 things

knowing where to go
the reward being greater than the risk
layered to increase the time it takes

A professional will take what he wants if he knows where to go, if it is worth it to him, and if he has the time.

A RSC prevents a smash and grab, that's about it.