Maybe the door was closed with something in the way, like a strap from a range bag was hanging into the safe.
 

Clearly the way that safe landed would dictate how hard the door would impact the jambs.


The door seals on the face of the jams are high quality silicone foam, and crushing them would not leave any notable damage unless there is a pinch point or shearing motion.


The material can be compressed a bit without fracturing. This doesn't surprise me any, but you are also looking thru a small slit where visibility of the insulation is very limited.

Dust or crumbing free materials would likely fall down inside the cavity, since the pan was clearly deformed opening a space as the boltwork and frames pulled the inner areas away from the insulation, as evidenced by the cracking around the bolt guide frame. That displacement would also cause a vacuum effect, pulling air in thru the buckled corner. I'm not confused by the lack of insulation debris, I would expect that.



It would be telling to pull the silicone seal away from the jambs and see if there is any deformations. The dent in the corner of the pan implies there may be a high spot in the corner of the jamb surface, which happens to be a weld point that sometimes is not ground completely flat.

Also, I might expect similar damage in the bottom corner. I would suggest you get down low and take a good look there from the bottom up. You should see cracked paint at the bolt guide to door pan connection line there too, even if the corner is not crushed in a similar way.

Another thing to look at is the rest of the door hardware. The back cover may show some evidence of damage, where the mass pulled things away from the back of the door. The boltwork cover screw points, the door organizer torn where heavy items pulled on the fabric, binding of the boltwork from the deformed pan, and any other small bits of damage that might indicate an impact displacement.

Look at the end-play and freedom of motion of the Dial and Handle. Even though there are steel cores that tie the door plate to the pan, they too may have deformed the pan, leading to binding or excessive end play at those points. Look closely at the the hinge connection points on the door face. The shock and recoil could manifest in small cracks in the paint around the hinges.

The jambs may show some inward displacement on the locking side. The frontal area of the safe is a stacked interlocking double box-section of materials, which makes the body frame very pry resistant. However, the jabs are a complex 16 gauge formed structure, and they could be bent in a bit where the door made impact. Use a straight edge to see if there is any bending in the line of the jambs. You may also see cracked paint lines in the root of the jamb lines. Measure the thickness of the jams, to see if they are compressed a little on the locking side.

In any event, if this was to be some mysterious spontaneous reaction, you would not expect damages to radiate over areas other than around the focal point of your initial photo selection. I think if you look hard, you will find multiple points where the damages all collectively tell a forensic tale. These are the things I would look at if the safe were returned.

I don't know why you've chosen to stalk me but I can now see that you are a very "important" person. I will take your opinion with TWO grains of salt in the future. As far as an "ax to grind", I have none. My very first post in this thread was about customer service and how it was poorly handled. It took many months for AMSEC to make good on their promise to replace. Excuses aside, that's too long. As an AMSEC customer I do have a pony in this race.

Frank (A1) seems to be a very trustworthy and straight forward guy. The kind of person AMSEC should value as a dealer. This thread has proven, at least to me, it is otherwise. Your mileage may vary.


As far as TSG, I asked some very specific questions. As an Engineer he can chose to answer in a factual scientific way or continue to deflect with a patronizing tone. Either way is very telling to the viewing public

You and I agree on one point. AMSEC will never admit that this safe design is flawed in anyway. Its a very popular product, by a respected brand, at a very attractive price point........ No way they say anything but ...."customer abuse" ..., and address it with a benevolent "good will" replacement.

If any first hand forensic analysis gets done at all it will be Frank (A1) that does it. And then it will never be official AMSEC viewpoint. Its a no win situation for Frank, If I were him, I would not touch that safe. I would make it available to AMSEC and then continue to report the "Lack of Interest" AMSEC takes in resolving the questions raised.

Why doesn't the customer (or the dealer) just pound the door frame back into place with a mallet and a large punch. According to the videos that Sturdy and it's fans have posted that steel should easily be manipulated. I bet with a few good blows that door will operate normally, and then just scrape and sand the area and hit it with some primer and grey textured spray paint. I know that isn't the Cinderella ending that some folks want, but it is a totally reasonable solution. It is what I would have done if it was my safe and the manufacturer denied a replacement under warranty...

Only issue I see is that the safe isnt under warranty anymore. Warranty period expired.

AMSEC is replacing the gun safe. I'm surprised AMSEC isn't asking for the safe back to do their own analysis; they a ponying up the money to replace an out of warranty safe so it should now below to them.

AMSEC didn't want to pay for the removal of the old safe, return shipping of the safe to them, and installation of the new safe.  This was no problem, since I was willing to stand behind what I sold and make my customer whole.  AMSEC told me I could keep the safe for my efforts, which ordinarily would not be a good deal on my part, but worked out OK for this particular situation.


I did spend some additional time looking at it the other day.  There's not much to be seen other than what I have already posted photos of.  There's no damage that I can detect anywhere else outside of the door itself.  Some of what I can see with my eyes does not show up well in photos.   The cracked paint around the bolt guides isn't really atypical.  I have seen that on several other BF series safes, and attribute it more to the paint itself than the construction of the safe.  It's a bit worse on this particular safe.  The pan welded onto the plate door is wavy, but that too may be typical due to the welding process.  Outside of that, the one corner of the door is the only substantial damage, and there is no corresponding damage to the door frame or seals in that same contact area.  No damage to the door panel in that area to indicate anything was trapped between the door and frame.  No damaged paint to indicate that anything came in contact with anything else.

Well that is nice. Believe me I see both sides because I am a small business owner myself, although I don't deal with warranty issues much at all. But I have had my own warranty issues with things I have purchased and am used to getting the run around or the news that it isn't covered. Maybe it is just part of our culture now to just assume that we will be not be covered for insurance and warranty claims despite paying out the nose for it upfront.

At this point from a marketing standpoint it made sense to just cover it, regardless of right or wrong...

It really surprises me that a manufacture wouldn't want to take a closer look at their product to determine the root cause of this failure even if that means paying you for your efforts so they can take back possession of it. Doesn't AMSEC have a quality control department?

Well I hope you give us your analysis Frank and I'm sure you can do any repairs necessary to be able to sell it used so you can get your money back.

After reading all of this I took a close look at my a amsec bf6030hd and noticed some cracks appearing.  Got the safe in November 2015 and love it, what do you guys think?  Don't think the cracks were there when I got it.   Never slammed the door or has it taken any falls ect.





<a href="http://s957.photobucket.com/user/redwoodm4/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsywjebnft.jpeg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae59/redwoodm4/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsywjebnft.jpeg" border="0" alt=" photo image_zpsywjebnft.jpeg"/></a>

If I were you I'd file a claim ASAP just to get it on record because of the weak 1 year warranty. If you wait until it explodes you will be fighting city hall. And if you did not buy from Frank then you will probably be on your own.

You could have had a warranty like this then you could not worry:

We stand behind every safe and vault door we build, including every component of it. This covers the entire safe, including the lock, bolts, etc. It is a true 50 year warranty. If there is a problem with your safe we want to know about it, and we will make it right...Period.

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."  Benjamin Franklin

After looking at your posted picture I opened my 2009 purchased BF6636 and mine does not look like that.
Since that is a joint I wonder if the paint along that seam is not the issue?
My safe came with touch up paint and I assume yours did as well.
If so see if it is the paint and if it is only the paint separating then touch it up.

Well I feel a bit stupid.  Do you know how sometimes you get so focused on what you believe you should be looking at that you miss the obvious?  Looking at the safe today in the light, I noticed the problem right away.  We were looking at the wrong part of the safe the entire time.  

The door pan in neither pushed in or out.  It's 1" (within 1/16") anywhere we measure it around the door.  It's not the door pan that's the problem.  This issue was not caused by poor pan attachment, the fill creating too much pressure, the door being slammed, or something being caught in the door while closing.  Those are the all the regular suspects, right?

To find the problem, we need to look at the front of the safe, not where the damage is on the inside.  The 1/2" door plate is not flat.  It is bowed over a several inch run culminating in that corner.  It was never the door pan blowing away from the plate, it was the plate pulling against the door pan.  So I was partially right.  It was under tension, just not the tension I suspected.

I don't know how well it will show in photos, but I have a few with a 4' level against the door for reference.

In this photo, the level is is bridged between the peak of the bow and the unaffected part of the door:



From the other side the level is tight against the unaffected part of the door :

....How does a half inch steel plate like that warp??
Damn!!

Dollars to donuts,  It was never straight in the first place.

I bet that door never closed worth a damn..... and once the bolts went home the whole assembly was under serious stress....like a cocked spring.

Possibly....But then again you have made several assumptions in this thread.
If your bet were correct it would have had issues from day one.
That's my bet.

self delete

Now that I find interesting!  I wonder how the door managed to close as I doubt that the pan could have held the 1/2" plate straight for this long could it?

looks to me to be about 3/16" gap.
I got my popcorn heating up....It's going to be fun to see them explain how you slam a door hard enough to bend that "massive" 1/2" A36 plate..... how far would you have to displace that plate to get that much plastic deformation.

Who's been slamming that door? Hulk?

Why would the flawed logic just stop now that there is a little more clarity? Agenda is why. The actual cause of the defect doesn't matter, as long as it is a defect then it is entertaining for them and embarrassing for Amsec.

This could have all been avoided if the OP safe dealer did his due diligence and actually checked the door plate before jumping to wild conclusions and calling out Amsec's "lack of interest". You can't say I told you so, if you didn't actually know in the first place....

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? talk about flawed logic!

The only good guys in this whole cf of a thread are the ones who called AMSEC out for  #1 making a POS,  #2  trying to stonewall until the issue just went quietly into the night, #3 trying to blame the flaw on customer abuse and then finally #4 trying to score points for doing what they should have done in the first week. Not 3 freaking months

thank goodness for AR15.com. the power of the internet, and folks like Frank who stick with it until they get it right.

Would this thread have been 7 pages long and lasted months if the dealer simply titled the thread "BF 1/2 inch plate safe door crowned 3/16"? No, and Amsec would have replaced the safe without any fuss. Instead it was a whole lot of back and forth and finger pointing while the peanut gallery (all of us) chimed in with opinions.

In hindsight I don't fault Amsec for initially not wanting to honor the passed warranty. I never for a second believed that damage was caused by the "cement" insulation expanding. This entire thread was simply a soap box to kick dirt on Amsec and a specific product they produce. I am very greatful for our right to have our own opinions and express them openly, but that doesn't necessarily make them right. Especially if it's intent is to push propaganda underhandedly. And I don't even own an Amsec safe...

... and AMSEC would NEVER push their propaganda underhandedly

I never thought it was a cement issue either but IMO it's a manufacturing defect none the less which if AMSEC supported the dealer wouldn't have gone this far and we wouldn't be still talking about it on page 7 of this thread. I also would suggest the owner of the AMSEC BF that posted photos earlier with the paint cracked along the bolt guide frame and door pan to check to make sure his door isn't warped as well.

We have received warped steel fresh from the supplier.  It would not be impossible to bend it during handling, but would take significant "effort".




It opened and closed fine.  Still does.  When that corner popped, it wedged the door pan against the fire seals.  Now that the seals are gone, it's back to normal.




I honestly don't know.  I don't know what is inside the pan that can't be seen.  I also don't know how they handle the assembly.  With heavy plate safes, I have seen them clamp the plates in the jig to make them conform prior to welding.  Any minor bowing wouldn't be a concern after welding because the welding would hold it together mostly as it was clamped.  Just guessing, but I suspect that the plate on this door had to be forced flat(er) during the assembly process, or the pan was forced flat(er) against the bowed door plate,  otherwise there wouldn't be any tension to begin with.




You know how many of these safes are sold through large internet dealers at the complaint of the brick and mortar dealer network?  What type of "due diligence" would the .com dealer have given in this situation?  I was under no obligation to perform any due diligence at all.  I could have simply given the customer AMSEC's customer service number and told him good luck.

What "wild conclusions" did I jump to?  My conclusion was:  This safe is damaged due to a defect.  We just didn't know exactly what that defect was.  Now we do.

I did indeed call out their lack of interest, due specifically to their lack of interest.  So yes, I can say I told you so, because I did actually know so.  Safes don't just randomly fall apart for no reason, and there was absolutely zero evidence from the very beginning indicating anything other than some sort of defect.  AMSEC customer service believe the safe was attacked, and TSG suspected the door was slammed.  We could see no signs at all that either of these scenarios were the cause.

One thing is certain.  I would have never posted this complaint had AMSEC stayed true to their word.  They were contacted, provided photos, and agreed to replace the safe.  That could have been the end of the story, but at some point changed their mind without any additional communication.  And even through all of this, you know who still hasn't reached out in any fashion?  Not counting TSG, who is a stand up guy.  




Although uncommon, I have seen composite safes swell.  I have looked through my collection for some photos but have come up blank, but I know I have them somewhere.

Kind of unrelated but the bowed plate door made me remember this.

I once sold a gooseneck ball mount on ebay to a guy 100 miles away. It was home built, 1/2" plate with a ball welded on it. 4 holes for mounting. I shipped it ups because I was 14 and had a farm permit to drive but 100 miles seemed like a long ways back then.

He got the plate and it was bent in a bowl shape. Not sure how that was accomplished but ups got her done.

I've had plate come bowed from my vendors a few times over the years, not very often though.

Where's the public  apology from AMSEC to the poor customer who has been repeatedly accused of Slamming the door, and then lying about it. AMSEC's persistence in that story line is tantamount to accusing the consumer  of fraud.

Wow, this really makes me want to run out and buy another AMSEC safe........NOT!

As usual. Crickets from TSG when the facts don't support his conclusions.

Cue the AMSEC apologist section.

No apologist here but making accusations of lying and throwing out that the company was accusing the consumer of trying to defraud the company is going more than a bit over board renotse.
Give it a rest guy.
What we really have here is a safe that had a door issue that was in fact resolved by the company replacing the rather expensive safe.
The cause of the door issue is not truly clear as of yet and may not ever be.
But again at the end of the day the customer received a brand new replacement safe however much issue there was in getting a replacement.
Remember Amsec still is not in possession of the "defective" safe.
So they don't even know what the hell happened with it.
But THEY DID replace it.

Seems the guilty dog barks first

lol.
It remains to be seen how much longer you last on this tech forum.

self delete.

A tech forum is not the place for praising and promoting specific manufacturers. They usually have Paid Industry forums for that.

No crickets here, just letting the hate mongers spew their venom...

I must concede to Franks opinion here, as a severely warped door could clearly cause some very unusual effects. The mystery is why it took so long to manifest, and how did the door still close normally with so much misalignment. The photos still don't seem to illustrate the kind of damages that would result from a severely warped door, but I have to concede that this must be the source of the problem if he can't find any other evidence to the contrary. I trust Frank as an upstanding and honest tech, and maybe if our service staff knew him better, there would have been a more expedient remedy. I will remind the readers that several weeks of delays were on the distributor in the middle providing the replacement safe, compounded by the holiday season.

Steel plate does come in pretty bad condition sometimes. You don't see it until you cut the smaller door plates from the giant sheets on the plasma table. Internal stress in the metal is relaxed when the smaller parts are cut free. We have a specialized hydraulic "door table" where we flatten door plates. We can bend a 1-1/2" thick plate flat in this bad-boy. This bad door got by somehow. I will be showing this to our manufacturing team, and see if there is any specific QC measures to trap this kind of flaw. It's still a mystery how that door worked at all. There will be further internal action to assure that never happens again. Again, I'm glad to see the customer is satisfied, that's the bottom line. This was definitely a bizarre set of circumstances.  

Hate mongers? Care to elaborate? or just more crickets?



I will remind the readers that this saga started  9/16/15  the replacement arrived  1/22/2016.

That is over 4 months that the customer had to have their valuables unprotected. Unless someone made other arrangements, that is a pretty big risk. The "several" weeks that are on the distributor is just another AMSEC deflection



QC Measures? Yeah!....  straight edge on the door plate before jigging and welding, or maybe stress relieving after torching and straitening and some real steel in the door pan to counteract the tension created in the warp. If all else fails  AMSEC could just ask their competitors how they manage to produce un-warped plate doors.

Never Happens Again?.....Based on the pictures posted by other BF owners more of this sort of thing its happening right now as we type. More doors stressing the bolt pan and works headed toward untimely de-lamination

And, as far as the customer being satisfied, Is he? How do we know? Has AMSEC reached out to him, or even directly to Frank the dealer?
I wouldn't be satisfied, not under these circumstances.

We know.  You will never buy an AMSEC safe and will never be satisfied now go away and stop trolling the tech forums

TSG, I don't see how the door could have shut from the factory with the plate bent that badly either and there is no way that the door failing to shut could have been missed by anyone making that safe (or QC'ing it).  Also, the customer damn well would have noticed the issue if you guys missed it.  I would be very interested in seeing any test results on the steel if/when you get the safe back as I know that steel while a fairly well known science can still do some funky things sometimes.

If that's all you got out of that post (plenty of tech in there) then I can see you're blinded by brand loyalty and I'd appreciate if you don't respond to any more of my posts



That science is called metallurgy and is firmly rooted in chemistry and physics. You might be confusing metallurgy with  alchemy.

I would never expect a novice like yourself to understand the complexities of manufacturing. QC is a science, not an eyeball judgement. That may be the methods employed by garage safe builders, but in a six-sigma lean manufacturing system, those simplistic measures would be laughable. This is an issue that requires tolerances, appropriate tools, procedures to apply the rules and use of the tools, corrective action planning to improve the process and much more.

The construction of this door, and the safe it's mounted on, is the result of years of engineering design and expensive fire testing. You have no idea what you are talking about regarding construction. Do you think it's just a coincidence that nobody has tried to achieve such an advanced product design after more than 16 years in the market?

Frank said the customer was satisfied. I trust his word on that matter....

You mentioned pictures in the plural as well as owners.
The only picture I recall was previously posted.
And I have no idea what was going on in that picture which is why I mentioned it was a possible paint issue.
But you really don't know what was up with that pictured safe.
And that's a fact.
So since you have come on a public forum and made this accusation that others are having this issue where exactly is your evidence of this??
I would certainly like to see it.

Actually you are again wrong. I know a thing or two about manufacturing.
Lean  just like JIT 5s Kaizen and ,Kanban are just corporate "program of the month" buzz words. Oops I forrot SPC

QC is not so much a science as the practice of designed steps to measure that the desired attributes are imparted to the product. The real science is QA, Which for the uninitiated is the maintenance of a desired level of quality in a product, by means of attention to every stage of the process. The results of  Process is  Controlled  by means of Statistcs and Analysis (Six Sigma) of the  data collected from the QC efforts. Its  the intelligent design and control of the process and careful attention to product  attributes, that Assures consistent Quality from a  process.

You can't inspect quality into a product you have to build it in via a well designed and capable process. The likes of which do not seem to exist on the BF production line.

What I suspect is that the AMSEC factory is seeing  what "us" Manufacturers call the Hawthorne Effect... (I bet TSC had to google that one) ...

I bet he never heard of Dr. Juran or Dr Deming either.

Techy enough?

Cue the crickets indefinitely. .................LOL

You might want to sit this one out. You are clearly out of your league. If you stay quietly on the sideline you might just learn something.

Snide remarks are not evidence and I have a very thick skin.
If you have the evidence of this problem that you claim is going on with the BF model safe then please show it.
Put up the evidence on these accusations you have leveled or get out of here.

You are cluttering this thread with your mud slinging and speculation.  Please take your own advice and sit on the sideline.  Maybe then this thread will end and provide some form of value to the tech forums.

Time to close this thread......

This thread needs some moderation, no? Or something.

Actually I think it's time for a renotse timeout, but I'm not a mod, and I don't play one on TV.

Frank expressed frustration, TSG provided insight (which looked bad for the end customer) based on limited data, safe got replaced - despite some miscommunication (mostly) all around - which is typical "shit happens" in the real world, Frank (who has a day job too) finally got a chance to see the light and reported what he believes to be the real failure mechanism, TSG agrees with failure based on remotely-provided data.

Throughout it all renotse tosses potshots, attacks on AMSEC, attacks on TSG, and typical teenage "nyaah-nyaah my dad can kick your dad's butt" nonsense.  He's all over the expanding concrete theory until the door warpage comes to life, then he's all over AMSEC for shipping warped doors.  Sigh.

I'm just a geek engineer who's interested in the outcome, so I hope the thread stays live.

My takeaways are pretty standard - if you don't get what you believe is right, keep escalating until you run out of altitude or get a reasonable answer.  I wish I were near Frank to buy and recommend folks buy from him.  TSG is an excellent ambassador for his employer.  I have no evidence that renotse is actually employed by Sturdy, so I don't hold his behavior against them - though I certainly would if he were an employee of theirs!

Actually renotse is purchasing a Brown safe and has had positive things to say about them. I posted the Sturdy video to show a comparison of the bolt support framing. I suspected a physical defect of some kind but wouldn't have guessed it was due to a warped door or that one could slip through the process ... but I suppose stuff happens.

I have no brand loyalty to anyone.  I am just tired of your crapping in this thread.

You have no credibility as an authority on anything as far as I can see.

   Yep, I am sick of the constant crap as well.  I hope he gets banned from the tech forum.

Agreed,  He is bringing nothing of value to this forum.

this has run its course,