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Posted: 9/1/2015 2:54:16 PM EDT
[#1]
They are acting as a distributor while selling retail to the public. This is why AMSEC is loosing dealers, and their products are loosing professional support. The more people mention them on the forums, the less I will be participating in safe threads. No need to spend a bunch of time acting as their salesman.
Buy from a local professional. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 7:58:57 PM EDT
[#2]
I ordered an AMSEC BF6030 from them last year and everything went well. I tried finding one locally first from several different safe dealers but all of the quotes came out to at least a thousand dollars more than what I paid.
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Posted: 9/1/2015 11:07:37 PM EDT
[#3]
I tried finding one locally first from several different safe dealers but all of the quotes came out to at least a thousand dollars more than what I paid. They likely sold it to you for about the same price it would have cost your local dealer to buy it for resale through the proper channels. Hence my problem with them. |
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Posted: 9/2/2015 6:54:46 PM EDT
[#4]
i also purchased thru safe and vault no issues here,saved enough to purchase a larue 223.my local dealer wanted to bend me over and spank me for my rfx.total bullshit i understand markup but 33% seems outragous when all he was doing was pushing paper.
personally even if he would have been in the ballpark i would have bought local but lets be real here he is a middle man who really was going to make 2500.00 for 1 hours work. not a bad gig if you can get it. a penny saved is a penny earned,the consumer cannot be blamed for the free market system.price fixing is not the answer smarter business is. pete |
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Posted: 9/2/2015 7:12:29 PM EDT
[#5]
the consumer cannot be blamed for the free market system.price fixing is not the answer smarter business is. It's not price fixing, Manufacturers control this on many other products you see sold every day. This is a rogue distributor, and AMSEC should cut their distributor pricing off if they are not distributing. When was the last time you saw somebody selling Fords for thousands less than every other dealer? They don't, because they can't. Ford controls that. Many of us are getting "smarter" though. No longer stocking them, and only ordering them when specifically requested. There are plenty of other manufacturers out there that don't have these types of problems. Some of them have even been approached by the same scofflaws asking about selling their products and were told to pound sand. I'd rather support those companies because they want to support guys like me. .total bullshit i understand markup but 33% seems outragous when all he was doing was pushing paper.
personally even if he would have been in the ballpark i would have bought local but lets be real here he is a middle man who really was going to make 2500.00 for 1 hours work. not a bad gig if you can get it. How do you know what his markup was if you don't know his cost. His cost may have very well been higher than what you paid through the rouge distributor. But seriously though. If it saves you guys money go ahead and support the people that are running people like me off. I couldn't help but notice in the other thread that your "dealer" couldn't even supply you with the shelf clips you needed. The fact that you had to go to the manufacturer was ridiculous. And the fact that the manufacturer finds that acceptable is even more ridiculous. |
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Posted: 9/2/2015 8:32:30 PM EDT
[#6]
never even called the dealer,it was nothing to do with them.they never even touched the safe it shipped directly from amsec to me.had i called them i'm sure they would have handled it but why involve a middle man.
and in the sake of full disclosure my local safe dealer dosent even carry the rfx line of safes and would also have had to call amsec to have them shipped out. i understand the entire distributor issue as i own a small liquor store,i cannot at times even begin to purchase from my distributor what the "big boys"are selling their product for. some day distributators will be a thing of the past and retailers will buy direct from manufactures.will this fix things?i doubt it as large customers will always likely negoiate a better price,thats just business.the internet is pushing things this way more and more every day. i understand your fustrtion but why not play the same game they are? become a distributor cut out the middle man and sell direct to the customer? as for my local safe retailer seems maybe he should order from safe and vault too if his supplier is raping him,i would have gladly paid him 250.00 to take delivery at his shop(saves me from taking a day off work to wait for it )and inspect the safe.then he would have also made money on delivery and installation at my home. people today pay for service and convience that is how i stay in business,if i have to i buy from my competitors to provide my customers the lowest possable price and service i do. pete |
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Posted: 9/2/2015 9:04:06 PM EDT
[#7]
.they never even touched the safe it shipped directly from amsec to me. Why not just buy it directly from AMSEC then? Why use the middle man internet dealer? i understand the entire distributor issue as i own a small liquor store,i cannot at times even begin to purchase from my distributor what the "big boys"are selling their product for. I get that your distributor sells to larger customers for less than you, and having been in club business, know that are pricing differences between retail package and by the drink establishments. Now imagine if you will, your distributor opening up a liquor store near yours. They then put their products on the shelf at your cost. But wait. They can't do that can they? Not only are their laws against it, but the manufacturers have their own rules in place: Liquor distributors distribute. They are not allowed to retail. It's a three tier system for a reason. Other safe manufacturers don't have this problem. Why does AMSEC? i understand your fustrtion but why not play the same game they are? become a distributor cut out the middle man and sell direct to the customer? Because in the security business, many of us have ethics. as for my local safe retailer seems maybe he should order from safe and vault too if his supplier is raping him,i would have gladly paid him 250.00 to take delivery at his shop(saves me from taking a day off work to wait for it )and inspect the safe.then he would have also made money on delivery and installation at my home. It's not that his supplier is raping him. It's that the manufacturer is raping everybody else by allowing a specific company to play these games. people today pay for service and convience that is how i stay in business, It seems that they mostly shop for the lowest possible price, which is made possible by no service. It's sad. We have a policy to not service anything that was sourced online that is available locally. You buy a Sturdy online and want us to install it? Sure thing. You buy a Liberty online and want us to install it? Not happening. I'm sure there's some schmuck out there that will do it. But rest assured, you'll be dealing with a hack of some sort. |
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Posted: 9/2/2015 9:43:32 PM EDT
[#8]
I have purchased from them, no problems.
To be fair, they aren't just an online only business selling RSC's cheap. They have multiple physical locations, and are a stocking dealer for AMSEC and many other brands, including commercial safes. They DO carry inventory at the brick & mortar stores (I know 2 people that have purchased from the actual store who live near there), and they sell for the same prices in store as they do online. IIRC the parent company has been in business since the 1950's or so. |
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Posted: 9/2/2015 10:17:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Great experience with them. Was able to order the first BF 6030 with the 4 gauge liner through them. This was when the 4 gauge liner was being discussed on this forum by TSG. They were responsive to my inquiry and made it happen with no difficulties. I also changed my color and hardware choices after my initial order which they accommodated- no excuses or delays. The safe was delivered in pristine condition in the time frame they indicated by a competent local delivery company. Wrapped perfectly and not a nick off the paint anywhere. Overall a fantastic experience. Although a great gun safe, I recently traded it in to my local safe store and picked up two real safes, an Original Platinum Vault TL 30X6 and John Tann Super Fortress (BEAST- 4600 lbs for 9.9 cubic feet).
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Posted: 9/3/2015 8:57:29 AM EDT
[#10]
They are a Fort Knox dealer as well. Why are their Fort Knox prices inline with what just about everybody else is selling them for? Why are Fort Knox dealers required to maintain a level playing field, but AMSEC dealers are not?
AMSEC says there's not much they can do. However, just about every other safe manufacturer seems to do it just fine, even with AMSEC's biggest offender. Maybe I should teach Fort Knox how to build a composite injected safe like the AMSEC BF line, and become a dealer for them. 
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Posted: 9/3/2015 4:38:26 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They are a Fort Knox dealer as well. Why are their Fort Knox prices inline with what just about everybody else is selling them for? Why are Fort Knox dealers required to maintain a level playing field, but AMSEC dealers are not? AMSEC says there's not much they can do. However, just about every other safe manufacturer seems to do it just fine, even with AMSEC's biggest offender. Maybe I should teach Fort Knox how to build a composite injected safe like the AMSEC BF line, and become a dealer for them.
I used to argue with you about this but more and more I'm starting to think you are right. MAP's are becoming more common in almost every industry (especially electronics) and it really levels the playing field for dealers/retailers of all sizes. No longer can a distributer sell to the public at a wholesale price and screw the other dealers. In the long run, having brick and mortar dealers to sell and support the product is good for the manufacturer and the customer as well. Who is going to move and service the safe after the online sale? As things are now, locksmiths are dropping safe sales and moving services because they're undercut by online sales. So it's not worth it for them to buy and maintain the necessary equipment, training and employees. At least when you sign up to be a Ft Knox dealer and stock their products, you know that you won't be screwed out of sale by some guy in his basement with a website. I really wish Amsec would address this issue and start controlling their rogue dealers so local safe retailers can compete and stay in the safe installation and moving business. But at the same time, locksmiths need to also evolve with the online economy and become more service-oreinted, rather than relying primarily on equipment sales for their profit, like they did in the old days. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 6:37:37 PM EDT
[#12]
My experience: I went to three local AMSEC dealers and what I wanted ranged from $4,000 - $4,200 (+ 8% tax) and delivery to my home would be a few hundred more. I had already checked safeandvault - $2,500 for garage delivery. One of the dealers shook his head and said he pays more than that. Another didn't even tell me a price after I said I had "looked around online". So I asked, "Ok, so if I order online and have you bring it in from my carport to my bedroom closet, how much?" I think one said he wasn't interested, one said as low as $500(!) if it wasn't complicated, the third (who was having a slow day, and actually chatted with me about safes in general, guns, and politics) said he'd do it for $250. I really wanted to give my business to a local dealer, but $1,800 more? No one on earth would take that deal. So I bought from safeandvault (no complaints, though it did take a bit longer than their shipping estimate) and had dealer #3 install it. If I need any servicing, I will not hesitate to trust him. He impressed me as being knowledgeable and trustworthy as opposed to the other two that gave close to used car salesman vibes.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not that his supplier is raping him. It's that the manufacturer is raping everybody else by allowing a specific company to play these games. Quote HistoryQuoted:
as for my local safe retailer seems maybe he should order from safe and vault too if his supplier is raping him,i would have gladly paid him 250.00 to take delivery at his shop(saves me from taking a day off work to wait for it )and inspect the safe.then he would have also made money on delivery and installation at my home. It's not that his supplier is raping him. It's that the manufacturer is raping everybody else by allowing a specific company to play these games. You dodged the question, why don't the dealers order from safeandvault if it really is cheaper than their supplier? They're a distributor, right? I was in the same boat, I'd have happily paid sales tax and a few hundred to have him "install" it in my house. Seems like it would take about ten minutes to order it and maybe an hour (with 2 people) to install it. $300 is not enough to do that? Dealer #3 was happy to do the install for me for $250. I just honestly can't fathom a1abdj's objections to be anything other than "We used to make $1,500 on a safe sale, now that people can buy from dealers outside our little secret circle, we can only make a few hundred. Boo hoo for me." Honestly, is there more to it than that? Quoted:
people today pay for service and convience that is how i stay in business, It seems that they mostly shop for the lowest possible price, which is made possible by no service. It's sad. We have a policy to not service anything that was sourced online that is available locally. You buy a Sturdy online and want us to install it? Sure thing. You buy a Liberty online and want us to install it? Not happening. I'm sure there's some schmuck out there that will do it. But rest assured, you'll be dealing with a hack of some sort. For the initial buy, there doesn't really need to be any service unless the buyer wants it installed. I'll agree that you don't want any old moving service to do that. The implied privacy of a security pro is worth a lot. But honestly, not servicing something because of who it was purchased from sounds a lot like BS protectionism. What other industries do this sort of thing? You are totally coming off like the RIAA in the advent of digital music. You need to adapt and provide what consumers want for a fair price, not rage against everyone else because your profits are reduced in the face of easier competition. The good old days don't last forever. Back on topic, before the gun safe, I had purchased an AMSEC under bed vault from safeandvault. It arrived with minor damage, obviously from shipping, though still fully functional. I emailed pics and an explanation to customer service and a very prompt response said they were going to send me a new unit - don't even worry about sending the other one back. That's above and beyond, IMHO. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 8:21:38 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My experience: I went to three local AMSEC dealers and what I wanted ranged from $4,000 - $4,200 (+ 8% tax) and delivery to my home would be a few hundred more. I had already checked safeandvault - $2,500 for garage delivery. One of the dealers shook his head and said he pays more than that. Another didn't even tell me a price after I said I had "looked around online". So I asked, "Ok, so if I order online and have you bring it in from my carport to my bedroom closet, how much?" I think one said he wasn't interested, one said as low as $500(!) if it wasn't complicated, the third (who was having a slow day, and actually chatted with me about safes in general, guns, and politics) said he'd do it for $250. I really wanted to give my business to a local dealer, but $1,800 more? No one on earth would take that deal. So I bought from safeandvault (no complaints, though it did take a bit longer than their shipping estimate) and had dealer #3 install it. If I need any servicing, I will not hesitate to trust him. He impressed me as being knowledgeable and trustworthy as opposed to the other two that gave close to used car salesman vibes. He may not be in business for very long if he is willing to simply take the scraps of work left over after S&V makes the bulk of the money on the deal. I support a1abdj's policy of not involving himself with the online dealers scraps. I also support MAP, as it eliminates the chances of getting screwed by paying more for something or less for something without the commensurate after-sale support. I purchase a Bose or Apple product, and I know what I'm going to pay and what warranties, etc. come with it. People forget that the "middle man" is what built this country and many of the iconic brands that have seemed to forget about him today. In my own business, I happily support the middle men, as I don't want to deal with thousands of little retail orders and prefer to deal in bulk to those who are willing to service individual customers. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 10:45:15 PM EDT
[#14]
I used to argue with you about this but more and more I'm starting to think you are right. See. There's hope for you yet. 
In the long run, having brick and mortar dealers to sell and support the product is good for the manufacturer and the customer as well. And this isn't just about the safe industry. This is true for every industry out there. We need to support local businesses, or there will be fewer local businesses. That's not good for our economy. at the same time, locksmiths need to also evolve with the online economy and become more service-oreinted, rather than relying primarily on equipment sales for their profit, Locksmiths in general are notoriously bad business people. A good portion of the locksmith industry is made of hobbiest. There are those who are serious about it, and while some of them do a little bit of everything, others tend to specialize in very specific areas. This is even more true near major metro areas. I just do safes and vault doors. There are guys around here that just do ATMs. Some only do automotive work. Some only do commercial hardware. Regardless of which avenue they take, almost all of these guys make more money from service than they do from physical sales. You dodged the question, why don't the dealers order from safeandvault if it really is cheaper than their supplier? They're a distributor, right? Because most of us, with ethics, play the game by the rules. We support the distributors that are actually in the distribution business. Seems like it would take about ten minutes to order it and maybe an hour (with 2 people) to install it. $300 is not enough to do that? Perhaps not. Many people don't have any idea what is involved in the business, and how that ends up impacting pricing. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 10:45:25 PM EDT
[#15]
I just honestly can't fathom a1abdj's objections to be anything other than "We used to make $1,500 on a safe sale, now that people can buy from dealers outside our little secret circle, we can only make a few hundred. Boo hoo for me." Honestly, is there more to it than that?
Yes. You clearly have no idea what it costs to run a business. There's more to it than that. And although I'm complaining about this issue, I'm not boo hooing. I still make plenty of money, some of it from AMSEC sales. I just push other products from manufacturers that support their dealers. Do you know how AMSEC grew to be as large of a company as they are? The small dealers. And now that they're big they think they can get away with screwing the very people that made them successful. Great display of ethics there. But honestly, not servicing something because of who it was purchased from sounds a lot like BS protectionism. What other industries do this sort of thing? All sorts of industries. Those who do usually are playing on a level playing field, which is why they have no problem working with "outside" products. You need to adapt and provide what consumers want for a fair price, not rage against everyone else because your profits are reduced in the face of easier competition How can I sell a product for a fair price if I can not buy it for a fair price? |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 11:57:09 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because most of us, with ethics, play the game by the rules. We support the distributors that are actually in the distribution business. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because most of us, with ethics, play the game by the rules. We support the distributors that are actually in the distribution business. Maybe we're getting closer to understanding each other here. What rules say you cannot buy from safeandvault? You say they must be getting distributor pricing. Why shouldn't a retailer be able to order from them? Or simply do like everyone's doing anyway. Cut your losses on the sales and send customers to the cheap online stores and then provide inspection, installation, service contracts, etc for reasonable prices. I'm sorry that you can't make lucrative sales now that things can be sold online for cheaper, but most other industries stopped whining about this a decade ago. Quoted:
I just honestly can't fathom a1abdj's objections to be anything other than "We used to make $1,500 on a safe sale, now that people can buy from dealers outside our little secret circle, we can only make a few hundred. Boo hoo for me." Honestly, is there more to it than that?
Yes. You clearly have no idea what it costs to run a business. There's more to it than that. And although I'm complaining about this issue, I'm not boo hooing. I still make plenty of money, some of it from AMSEC sales. I just push other products from manufacturers that support their dealers. Do you know how AMSEC grew to be as large of a company as they are? The small dealers. And now that they're big they think they can get away with screwing the very people that made them successful. Great display of ethics there. I understand business overhead. You chopped out the part where I said my dealer was happy to install my safe for $250. It was him and his helper for about 40 minutes. He didn't complain about the price. He didn't complain that I didn't buy from him. He treated me like a friend rather than an income source to be exploited. Reading other peoples' posts here, I've heard of more complicated installs (up / down stairs) being even cheaper than $250. Out of curiosity, what you would charge to move a safe from a pallet in a carport, up a 3" threshold, over about 30' of brick and laminate flooring, and scoot it in the corner of a carpeted closet? I can totally understand if you are more highly skilled and you'd prefer to go drill / re-combo a safe for more money / less time, but the lesser jobs need to be done and can be a foot in the door for the better tasks. If there's still more to it than that, I'd appreciate you sharing. Also, if you don't like AMSEC's business practices, I'm surprised you sell any of their products. You must be making money of some of them, then? Quoted:
You need to adapt and provide what consumers want for a fair price, not rage against everyone else because your profits are reduced in the face of easier competition How can I sell a product for a fair price if I can not buy it for a fair price? Easy, you don't. You do something else. See "horse and buggy", "vinyl records", "telegraph", etc. But no, you want to buy 3 items for the same unit price that somebody else buys 3,000 and it's "not fair" when they don't let you. I'm still open to a reasonable explanation for your position.  I'm really not trying to bash you or anyone else, I just found the safe-buying experience really frustrating and I'm trying to understand why the situation is like this. I can't help wanting to understand and fix things that are clearly broken. 
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Posted: 9/4/2015 12:22:57 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sorry that you can't make lucrative sales now that things can be sold online for cheaper, but most other industries stopped whining about this a decade ago. Umm... No, those other industries have implemented MAPs years ago. Have you bought a car, TV, computer and electronics, household appliance, lawnmower, furniture, a weber grill, etc etc...?? Most major manufacturers have MAPs in place to level the playing field for everyone. This has nothing to do with horses and buggies, it has everything to do with a manufacturer not allowing a distributor to undercut all their dealers on the internet. You think MAPs are bad? Some companies have MAPs + no internet sales for their products. In all fairness, Amsec is not the only safe company that does this, and at least they don't also undercut their dealers and sell direct for a lower price like some do. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 12:45:53 PM EDT
[#18]
This discussion is how I ended up with a Liberty safe. Had my 2 "dealers" near me had a variety of AMSEC in stock, I probably would have went that route. But they don't. They don't stock them because people don't buy them. They buy online and then want it installed. When I needed my new Liberty moved, I called one of the AMSEC dealers, asked how much to move 20' , and down 3 steps? $600. Because I didn't buy from them. IF I had bought the safe from them, it would have been less. So instead I rented a heavy-duty dolly and did it myself, with help from my dad. Point being, dealers don't have room for mark-up if I can buy the same safe, at the same price as them, so why would they want to sit on an inventory of safes, while potential customers are buying online?
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Posted: 9/4/2015 2:41:49 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This discussion is how I ended up with a Liberty safe. Had my 2 "dealers" near me had a variety of AMSEC in stock, I probably would have went that route. But they don't. They don't stock them because people don't buy them. They buy online and then want it installed. When I needed my new Liberty moved, I called one of the AMSEC dealers, asked how much to move 20' , and down 3 steps? $600. Because I didn't buy from them. IF I had bought the safe from them, it would have been less. So instead I rented a heavy-duty dolly and did it myself, with help from my dad. Point being, dealers don't have room for mark-up if I can buy the same safe, at the same price as them, so why would they want to sit on an inventory of safes, while potential customers are buying online? there are always people who want immediate satisfaction and will pay showroom price,then there are others who are going to shop around and "order" a safe.this used to be any safe stores best sell,no risk,down payment and huge profit for pushing a little paper.now along comes the internet and people are no longer willing to pay the high profit margins when they can get the product online. my dealer could have easily ordered my safe had it delivered,inspected it and brought it to my office and installed it and he could have made some money,but instead since he couldn't make bank he chose to do nothing.so I subcontracted it out and paid a moving company to do it. did it matter to me hell no,i don't need him if he wants to be unreasonable(I could not even pin him down on a hourly rate to install).some out there like to scare people saying they wont service what they dident sell,total bs what happens if you move with your safe?seems companies who survive learn to evolve and adapt.besides I would dare wager 1/2 the safe retailers couldn't professionally service a tl rated safe anyway. like I stated before if I was him I'd order from the cheapest distributor to get the safe to my location and if that is s&v so be it,of course I'd also try to find out what they are doing and do the same so I could brovide the best possible price and service as that is what retail is about. roll your dice take your chances,but I have no regrets in how my transaction turned out pete
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Posted: 9/4/2015 11:43:19 PM EDT
[#20]
You chopped out the part where I said my dealer was happy to install my safe for $250. It was him and his helper for about 40 minutes. He didn't complain about the price. He didn't complain that I didn't buy from him. He treated me like a friend rather than an income source to be exploited. Reading other peoples' posts here, I've heard of more complicated installs (up / down stairs) being even cheaper than $250. Unless I have a full day's worth of gun safe installs, I won't even start one of our delivery trucks for a $250 gun safe delivery. We do deliver a lot of gun safes though. Usually +/- 12 hours worth a day, 2 to 4 days of the week. The guys doing this work for $250 (and less) are typically under/not insured, under/not properly equipped, and are a disaster waiting to happen. We have a few of them running around in our area. Out of curiosity, what you would charge to move a safe from a pallet in a carport, up a 3" threshold, over about 30' of brick and laminate flooring, and scoot it in the corner of a carpeted closet? I can totally understand if you are more highly skilled and you'd prefer to go drill / re-combo a safe for more money / less time, but the lesser jobs need to be done and can be a foot in the door for the better tasks. In most cases I wouldn't move it. Being on a pallet inside a carport would indicate it was purchased online and dropped off by the trucking company. The purchaser should have paid for the "white glove" (so the felons don't leave their fingerprints on your safe) service. The only time we would conduct a move like that would be if the safe was something not sold by other retailers in the metro area. Also, if you don't like AMSEC's business practices, I'm surprised you sell any of their products. You must be making money of some of them, then? The only AMSEC products that I sell are sold to people that specifically request them, and are buying them sight unseen. None of my AMSEC customers get to come look or touch any product because I no longer keep any of it around for them to look at or touch. But yes, if somebody calls and ask, I'll order it in. They have to prepay unless they are a known existing customer. there are always people who want immediate satisfaction and will pay showroom price,then there are others who are going to shop around and "order" a safe.this used to be any safe stores best sell,no risk,down payment and huge profit for pushing a little paper.now along comes the internet and people are no longer willing to pay the high profit margins when they can get the product online. You're still clearly not getting it, because you're assuming that the rogue online guys and the brick and mortar guys are paying close to the same. Let's say the online guy makes $100 on a $2,000 sale. The brick and mortar guy may be making the same $100 at $3,000. But your acting as if he's being greedy and making $1,300. my dealer could have easily ordered my safe had it delivered,inspected it and brought it to my office and installed it and he could have made some money,but instead since he couldn't make bank he chose to do nothing. Just imagine how much money he makes that he can sit around and watch Judge Judy instead of dealing with your safe. I get this attitude on occasion locally. People think that their $200 is going to make or break my business. You see, I'm not sitting around waiting for that $200. I'm busy making real money. Bank as you call it. That guy who's sitting around waiting for the phone to ring. The one who'll jump on your $200 without hesitating. There's probably a reason he's sitting around waiting for the phone to ring.
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Posted: 9/5/2015 9:56:57 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only AMSEC products that I sell are sold to people that specifically request them, and are buying them sight unseen. None of my AMSEC customers get to come look or touch any product because I no longer keep any of it around for them to look at or touch. But yes, if somebody calls and ask, I'll order it in. They have to prepay EXACTLY the boat I found myself in when I was shopping for a safe last year. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 12:02:00 PM EDT
[#22]
but i do get it,my dealer could have ordered the safe from s&v and marked it up 250.00 or so just for taking delivery and initally inspecting it.at that point i would either have to pick it up or pay him for delivery.i would have done this just not to take the day off and it would have been far more convient.
no one here expects a 4700lb safe to be delivered to their basement or office for free.but being in construction for over 20 years i can defiantly say i have not hesitated to give a customer either a bid or our t&m rate.of course i like bids i factor in extra for unseen items and usually make more money,of course if the customer is willing to take a risk he will usually come out better on t&m. the rate is the same for a 5million job or a 200$ job. of course we all know that the usual safe is likely around 1500lb or less and is installed by a couple of big guys in less than a hour.i think the difference here is a1abdj compares the safe technology at the bank to a rsc that anyone can install.and he wants to make the same money for both or he's not turning off judge judy. and now hes getting pissed that people are finding out that for the most part safes are east to install and need little service,so why pay the safe company when you can do it yourself. pete |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 12:19:09 PM EDT
[#23]
but i do get it,my dealer could have ordered the safe from s&v and marked it up 250.00 or so just for taking delivery and initally inspecting it.at that point i would either have to pick it up or pay him for delivery.i would have done this just not to take the day off and it would have been far more convient. Well I don't know about your dealer, but we're not sitting around the warehouse waiting for $250 customers either. We put in 12 hour days, 6 days a week. If you want me to take delivery of your safe and inspect it, you'll have to buy it from me. Anybody who expects another business to handle the "competitors" products for a small fee is crazy. i think the difference here is a1abdj compares the safe technology at the bank to a rsc that anyone can install.and he wants to make the same money for both or he's not turning off judge judy. and now hes getting pissed that people are finding out that for the most part safes are east to install and need little service,so why pay the safe company when you can do it yourself.
I think the difference here is icecold1 compares some schmuck with a pick up truck advertising on craigslist to a professional outfit. He then expects the professional outfit to provide products and services as the same price as the schmuck. I probably deliver 80% of all of the gun safes sold at retail in the St. Louis area that are not taken by the customers themselves. All of these retailers are my "competitors". Cabela's, Bass Pro, the big Liberty Safe Outlet, Dick's, Costco, Sam's, some of the Gander Mountains, an several smaller gun shops and sporting goods stores use us for their delivery work. We do plenty of $200 installations on safes we did not sell ourselves. The difference between me and the schmuck is that I do 5 of them in the time it takes him to do 1. I have proper insurance, he doesn't. I have the proper equipment, he doesn't. I have skilled employees, he doesn't. I'm not just protecting my interest, I'm protecting theirs. I'm not a Liberty dealer, but I will not install or service a Liberty safe that was purchased online instead of from one of the local stores. Why? Because if they go out of business, I can't deliver their safes. See? I'm practicing what I preach: Support your local businesses. So you're in the construction business? I know of a few (probably illegal) Mexican roofing crews in my area. Will your company match their price, or are you going to be greedy and try to "make bank"? |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 4:32:57 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you want me to take delivery of your safe and inspect it, you'll have to buy it from me. Anybody who expects another business to handle the "competitors" products for a small fee is crazy. Quote HistoryQuoted: If you want me to take delivery of your safe and inspect it, you'll have to buy it from me. Anybody who expects another business to handle the "competitors" products for a small fee is crazy. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 6:22:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well I don't know about your dealer, but we're not sitting around the warehouse waiting for $250 customers either. We put in 12 hour days, 6 days a week. If you want me to take delivery of your safe and inspect it, you'll have to buy it from me. Anybody who expects another business to handle the "competitors" products for a small fee is crazy. once again you missed the big picture,but you seem good at that.since you saw what i ordered in the other thread you know that it was a large safe.4700lb to be exact. so if my dealer had used s&v as a distributor(if theirs wouldent give them a better price like you love to infer) marked it up 250 to take delivery then charge me a reasonable delivery fee,the business would have been his. my guess is he would have likely made wages for his guys plus 500-700 not including the 250 he made taking delivery. I think the difference here is icecold1 compares some schmuck with a pick up truck advertising on craigslist to a professional outfit. He then expects the professional outfit to provide products and services as the same price as the schmuck. I probably deliver 80% of all of the gun safes sold at retail in the St. Louis area that are not taken by the customers themselves. All of these retailers are my "competitors". Cabela's, Bass Pro, the big Liberty Safe Outlet, Dick's, Costco, Sam's, some of the Gander Mountains, an several smaller gun shops and sporting goods stores use us for their delivery work. We do plenty of $200 installations on safes we did not sell ourselves. The difference between me and the schmuck is that I do 5 of them in the time it takes him to do 1. I have proper insurance, he doesn't. I have the proper equipment, he doesn't. I have skilled employees, he doesn't. I'm not just protecting my interest, I'm protecting theirs. I'm not a Liberty dealer, but I will not install or service a Liberty safe that was purchased online instead of from one of the local stores. Why? Because if they go out of business, I can't deliver their safes. See? I'm practicing what I preach: Support your local businesses. So you're in the construction business? I know of a few (probably illegal) Mexican roofing crews in my area. Will your company match their price, or are you going to be greedy and try to "make bank"? i'm not in the roofing business so no i wont match their price,but we will tell anyone our time and material rate or we will bid the job.their choice,i fully expect to pay in the neighborhood of 80-100 a hour for a safe delivery guy and have no issue with that.now i'm not in your area so pricing could be different there but here it is pretty easy to find skilled trades working for licensed and bonded companies for 100 per hour billing rates.americans supporting america. this is america,people have choices to do business as they wish.we have many times went and repaired inferior work done by "cheaper"competotors i would never refuse to do a job just because the material could be sourced cheaper,we have customers constantly provide certan products they want/have that we could purchase. we also dont sit around looking for 200.00 jobs,but we have a service division that usually can crank out 4-5 200 jobs per guy per day,while our commerical division is doing 50 mil gross work a year.sometimes the little jobs turn into bigger fish,turning them away is foolish. good luck with your business plan i hope it works out for you Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well I don't know about your dealer, but we're not sitting around the warehouse waiting for $250 customers either. We put in 12 hour days, 6 days a week. If you want me to take delivery of your safe and inspect it, you'll have to buy it from me. Anybody who expects another business to handle the "competitors" products for a small fee is crazy. once again you missed the big picture,but you seem good at that.since you saw what i ordered in the other thread you know that it was a large safe.4700lb to be exact. so if my dealer had used s&v as a distributor(if theirs wouldent give them a better price like you love to infer) marked it up 250 to take delivery then charge me a reasonable delivery fee,the business would have been his. my guess is he would have likely made wages for his guys plus 500-700 not including the 250 he made taking delivery. i think the difference here is a1abdj compares the safe technology at the bank to a rsc that anyone can install.and he wants to make the same money for both or he's not turning off judge judy. and now hes getting pissed that people are finding out that for the most part safes are east to install and need little service,so why pay the safe company when you can do it yourself.
I think the difference here is icecold1 compares some schmuck with a pick up truck advertising on craigslist to a professional outfit. He then expects the professional outfit to provide products and services as the same price as the schmuck. I probably deliver 80% of all of the gun safes sold at retail in the St. Louis area that are not taken by the customers themselves. All of these retailers are my "competitors". Cabela's, Bass Pro, the big Liberty Safe Outlet, Dick's, Costco, Sam's, some of the Gander Mountains, an several smaller gun shops and sporting goods stores use us for their delivery work. We do plenty of $200 installations on safes we did not sell ourselves. The difference between me and the schmuck is that I do 5 of them in the time it takes him to do 1. I have proper insurance, he doesn't. I have the proper equipment, he doesn't. I have skilled employees, he doesn't. I'm not just protecting my interest, I'm protecting theirs. I'm not a Liberty dealer, but I will not install or service a Liberty safe that was purchased online instead of from one of the local stores. Why? Because if they go out of business, I can't deliver their safes. See? I'm practicing what I preach: Support your local businesses. So you're in the construction business? I know of a few (probably illegal) Mexican roofing crews in my area. Will your company match their price, or are you going to be greedy and try to "make bank"? i'm not in the roofing business so no i wont match their price,but we will tell anyone our time and material rate or we will bid the job.their choice,i fully expect to pay in the neighborhood of 80-100 a hour for a safe delivery guy and have no issue with that.now i'm not in your area so pricing could be different there but here it is pretty easy to find skilled trades working for licensed and bonded companies for 100 per hour billing rates.americans supporting america. this is america,people have choices to do business as they wish.we have many times went and repaired inferior work done by "cheaper"competotors i would never refuse to do a job just because the material could be sourced cheaper,we have customers constantly provide certan products they want/have that we could purchase. we also dont sit around looking for 200.00 jobs,but we have a service division that usually can crank out 4-5 200 jobs per guy per day,while our commerical division is doing 50 mil gross work a year.sometimes the little jobs turn into bigger fish,turning them away is foolish. good luck with your business plan i hope it works out for you |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 7:00:25 PM EDT
[#26]
Do you order guns online and have them shipped to a local FFL? Nope. We do business with several FFLs. If I want something, I buy it directly from them. On occasion, I even get discount.
,i fully expect to pay in the neighborhood of 80-100 a hour for a safe delivery guy and have no issue with that.now i'm not in your area so pricing could be different there but here it is pretty easy to find skilled trades working for licensed and bonded companies for 100 per hour billing rates $125 per hour, minimum 2 hours, shop to shop. That's our entry level. There's consulting work I do at $400 per hour plus expenses. The heavier it is, or the more complicated it is, the higher the price goes. We don't charge the same for moving a safe up and down stairs as we do for moving it across a floor. Different equipment, different skills, different rate. Just like a brain surgeon charges more than a general practitioner. Here's a pic of some of the work I do. Maybe you should call Dye "The Safe Guy" and see if he can put one of these in for $80 an hour. 
good luck with your business plan i hope it works out for you Had this business since 1990. Have never made less money in a year than we did the previous. In fact, the less I screw around with the nickle and dimers who want to save money by buying on line, the more time I have to do jobs that pay real money. |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 8:53:41 PM EDT
[#27]
Did you ever get projects of that completed boathouse? I just checked your original archived thread, and didn't see any. Would be sweet to see it all done.
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Posted: 9/5/2015 10:14:40 PM EDT
[#28]
ab1
the question here although that is cool,it in no way effects anything we were talking here it only supports my original statements,that you are trying to compare apples to oranges.i realize you think you are quite a stud but ultimatly the guy who built the structure has a tougher job than you do.anyone can hire a crane and set the door.my guess is from the way you talk you roll in grease the hinges and go home 5-6 k billed out.good job you fill a specialty nitch,of course we all know that those jobs are not every month. so dye is a burr in your saddle selling safes to the public at minimal markup to people who dont need a snobby locksmith/safe dealer to install their safe. so the only recourse you have is cutting off service if there is a mechanical falure or refusing to provide install services.guess ill just consider the fact that before i'd call some snob like you id cut the dam thing open and order a new one as for installing anyone with any sense can call a rigging company who moves heavy things day in and day out,things you would not even consider moving(or is that your crane?).of course it would never come to that because 1 call to amsec and they will locate me a tech who was willing to come out for a reasonable fee. to the op harley s&v is good to go i spent over 6k there and product is installed and operates perfect even though not one locksmith or safe company touched it
i'm thinking of ordering another one for my home next year. pete |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 10:30:22 PM EDT
[#29]
.i realize you think you are quite a stud but ultimatly the guy who built the structure has a tougher job than you do.anyone can hire a crane and set the door. Yeah. Anybody can do it. Thats why he called me and I traveled half way across the country take care of it. my guess is from the way you talk you roll in grease the hinges and go home 5-6 k billed out.good job you fill a specialty nitch,of course we all know that those jobs are not every month. I think he was into that job for about $250,000 from start to finish, not counting the door itself. And you're right. That type of job isn't every month. It's the only one like it in the world. And he called me, even though anybody could hire the crane and do it. And talking about crane, those guys "make bank" as you say. We priced a 250 ton hydro to come out and set it for us. $12,000 for up to 8 hours. $10,000 for any additional time, up to another 8 hours. But I'm sure you know all about this stuff working for that big construction outfit. so dye is a burr in your saddle selling safes to the public at minimal markup to people who dont need a snobby locksmith/safe dealer to install their safe. No, he's not. He's only selling AMSEC safes to the public and minimal mark up. From what I have seen, I can meet or beat his pricing on any other line he represents that I do as well. My problem is not with him, nor his company. It's with AMSEC failing to control their dealer network. anyone with any sense can call a rigging company who moves heavy things day in and day out,things you would not even consider moving Indeed. The name of my company ends with "safe and vault". I don't move machinery or tooling, just safes and vault doors. And you know who many of the rigging companies call when they get calls for vault doors? I'll give you a hint. It's not Dye, and they don't do it themselves. 1 call to amsec and they will locate me a tech who was willing to come out for a reasonable fee. The more "reasonable" they are, the better work they perform. I have pictures of some of the clean up work we've done for some of these guys. I hope your new safe never has to meet some of these frauds. I think Icecold and Rockola should start a club. They both love their respective suppliers so much. And I may be a "snobby locksmith", but at least I'm not so self centered that I only care about getting the best deal for myself. Good for you for saving some money. I just don't want to hear you complain about our economy, jobs being lost, mom and pop stores going out of business, etc. Because it's guys like you that are causing it. Oh, and don't forget to pay your taxes. You wouldn't want to be breaking any laws. MN Use Tax Required For All Untaxed Out Of State Purchases |
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Posted: 9/5/2015 11:53:25 PM EDT
[#30]
like i said it was delivered to our warehouse then moved to our office,a business.we pay taxes on everything we buy out of state (material,vehicles) along with payroll,workmans comp,state and fedral taxes.of course since this is used to store business related items we will also use it as a write off.but thanks i'll pass your advice along to our accountants.
im sorry you find the need to constantly troll these threads to cut down other businesses.who are doing nothing against the law.because you have a pet peeve.seems your time would be better suited to talking with amsec if you disagree with their business practices. as for costing jobs i paid likely more companies to get my safe installed than if i had used the safe store plus some of my employees in the warehouse.i think the economy will be just fine. it also appears dye will not be putting you under either so the future is bright
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Posted: 9/6/2015 12:03:09 AM EDT
[#31]
because you have a pet peeve.seems your time would be better suited to talking with amsec AMSEC is aware of the issue. By participating in these threads, so is the general public. It's amazing how many people use Google to research their purchases and end up finding threads I participate in. Although I won't have 100% of people reading this thread agree with me, 100% won't agree with you either, and that may be yet another AMSEC sale lost. Who knows, perhaps somebody will read this and it will cost Dye a sale. Maybe you've missed the other posts in this thread that describe the very problem I have been discussing. It's not just me. Oh, and I have spent years and years online sharing my knowledge of safes and other security related things. This is just another exchange of information to help educate the masses. |
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Posted: 9/6/2015 2:20:57 AM EDT
[#32]
We're really skirting the line on personal attacks here, gents. Let's NOT have that.
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Posted: 9/6/2015 11:36:00 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nope. We do business with several FFLs. If I want something, I buy it directly from them. On occasion, I even get discount. Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you order guns online and have them shipped to a local FFL? Nope. We do business with several FFLs. If I want something, I buy it directly from them. On occasion, I even get discount. It seems like your complaining about the end user who makes the purchase. Anyone who pays significantly more than they need to is silly. |
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Posted: 9/7/2015 12:13:48 AM EDT
[#34]
It must suck to be limited to their inventory. As far as that goes, I'm assuming you do NO online shopping, ever? Being in a large metro area, I have never encountered not being able to source whatever firearm I wanted locally. I suppose if it ever happens they can order it from one of their suppliers. And no, I very rarely purchase anything online. I want to look and touch before I make a decision. And just like I complain about people using my showroom to sell their goods, I'm not going to do the same thing to save a few dollars. I also tend to patronize small businesses over the big box stores whenever possible. It seems like your complaining about the end user who makes the purchase. Anyone who pays significantly more than they need to is silly. Any manufacturer who sells at distribution pricing to somebody who's a retailer is silly. That's my complaint. And even that very same retailer is kept in check by other manufacturers they deal with. So all of the BS from the one manufacturer in question about how there's nothing they can do about it is just that. BS. And to treat the very people that built them into the business they are today like this is even worse. Manufacturers and suppliers who engage in this behavior are not doing themselves any long term favors. It doesn't help their industry. It doesn't help the dealer network that they rely on to perform services. It doesn't help local economies. There's simply nothing good about it. |
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Posted: 9/7/2015 9:56:33 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any manufacturer who sells at distribution pricing to somebody who's a retailer is silly. That's my complaint. This is no different than when SilencerShop switched to a distribution-only sales model, and everyone in TX complained how dumb it was, and how unfair it was to them and they would take their $$$ elsewhere... Some people just wont understand why they cant have something for the absolute lowest price possible. It's not always easy having ethics. |
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