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Posted: 3/24/2015 8:05:12 PM EDT
This guy took a serious loss while he was on vacation.  "Safe" (RSC) cut open from the back. No affiliation with story.

GD Thread linked here

News story here has a video with pics

Link Posted: 3/25/2015 9:29:34 AM EDT
[#1]
No alarm system.  No cameras.  Calls them "Assault Rifles".  Safe not bolted.  Planned burglary with apparently hours of free time.


Zero OPSec.



He broke just about every rule.
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 1:29:49 PM EDT
[#2]
Bolted is rule 1 and super easy to do.  I would do a remote smoke alarm.  Detects in safe room, emits from loud speaker out attic vents.  for that much money he should have. Should have been a 15-20k safe what was it a stack on?

Edit for clarity
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 2:13:12 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 11:27:26 PM EDT
[#4]
Several big mistakes.

First, he should have bolted the safe down and maybe surround it with a shelving structure to make it really hard to get at the back of the safe. An alarm would have stopped the burglary in the first few minutes despite the fact that the safe was unbolted.  Installing one or two security cameras are so affordable these days, no reason not to have one linked to your cell phone/ipad. I guarantee that these crooks broke in and then found the safe. They definitely had enough time to go home and come back with some better tools plus some "help". That safe room could have also been better secured with an extra heavy steel door adding another level to get through and maybe even have the whole room hidden from view with a fixture/cabinet.
Link Posted: 3/25/2015 11:49:45 PM EDT
[#5]

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Quoted:


COPY OF MY POST FROM GD IN CASE WE CAN FIND THIS GUY:



Lots of mistakes here. Poor opsec, not bolted down,no multiple layers of security etc.



NO safe, regardless of TL or RSC rating etc. can protect you against someone who knows they have virtually unlimited time and enough idea of what's inside to make the risk/reward worth it.



That said, if anybody knows this guy, drop me a PM.



Provided he is willing to give me the other manufacturer's damaged safe, I will cut him/his insurance a sweetheart deal on a better one - at my manufacturing cost only, as long as he will promise to bolt it down too and keep his mouth shut next time he travels.
View Quote
You guys seem like a class act. Wish I had the 5 grand for one of your safes. One day.

 
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 7:45:09 AM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:
Wish I had the 5 grand for one of your safes. One day.  
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Check these out.  Probably one of the best deals out there for an "old school" gunsafe:

http://www.westcoastsafes.com/fort-knox-gun-safes-fort-knox-m2-gun-safes-c-1000071_1000082.html
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 10:38:53 AM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 10:46:07 AM EDT
[#8]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Bolted is rule 1 and super easy to do. I would do a remote smoke alarm. Detects in safe room, emits from loud speaker out attic vents. for that much money he should have. Should have been a 15-20k safe what was it a stack on?



Edit for clarity
View Quote


A 15K to 20K safe is still just a time equation, and they had lots of time.  He would be better served with insurance and an alarm.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 2:41:22 PM EDT
[#9]
I was wondering what kind of safe that was.
Since it had an automotive finshed paint job and exterior hinges there are just a few makes like that and the Ft.Knox guy has already stated it's not one of theirs.
Browning maybe??
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 3:02:37 PM EDT
[#10]
Looks like an older Granite (Winchester).  It's always trickier to make an ID from a side shot than the front.  

Link Posted: 3/26/2015 4:35:34 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:

A 15K to 20K safe is still just a time equation, and they had lots of time.  He would be better served with insurance and an alarm.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Bolted is rule 1 and super easy to do. I would do a remote smoke alarm. Detects in safe room, emits from loud speaker out attic vents. for that much money he should have. Should have been a 15-20k safe what was it a stack on?

Edit for clarity

A 15K to 20K safe is still just a time equation, and they had lots of time.  He would be better served with insurance and an alarm.


Nope, time does not necessarily equal success. Time is only a component when you start getting into real safes. In addition to time, to be successful you'll need the proper equipment, experience, skill and knowledge. In the 15-20k range mentioned, you're talking about TRTL and even used TXTL x6 safes. The kind of crews who break into those hit high value targets like banks, cash-based business, and jewelry stores. And even then, they usually do it on a weekend or holiday where they have a ton of time. They don't break into people's houses to take their guns and collectibles.

A thief can have all the time in the world, but if they don't the proper equipment, experience, skill and knowledge, they will not be breaking into a real (tested) safe. Typical gun safes are sheet metal boxes that do not usually require anything more than some time and a trip to Home Depot to break into.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 4:42:12 PM EDT
[#12]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Nope, time does not necessarily equal success. Time is only a component when you start getting into real safes. In addition to time, to be successful you'll need the proper equipment, experience, skill and knowledge. In the 15-20k range mentioned, you're talking about TRTL and even used TXTL x6 safes. The kind of crews who break into those hit high value targets like banks, cash-based business, and jewelry stores. And even then, they usually do it on a weekend or holiday where they have a ton of time. They don't break into people's houses to take their guns and collectibles.



A thief can have all the time in the world, but if they don't the proper equipment, experience, skill and knowledge, they will not be breaking into a real (tested) safe. Typical gun safes are sheet metal boxes that do not usually require anything more than some time and a trip to Home Depot to break into.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:



Quoted:

Bolted is rule 1 and super easy to do. I would do a remote smoke alarm. Detects in safe room, emits from loud speaker out attic vents. for that much money he should have. Should have been a 15-20k safe what was it a stack on?



Edit for clarity


A 15K to 20K safe is still just a time equation, and they had lots of time. He would be better served with insurance and an alarm.




Nope, time does not necessarily equal success. Time is only a component when you start getting into real safes. In addition to time, to be successful you'll need the proper equipment, experience, skill and knowledge. In the 15-20k range mentioned, you're talking about TRTL and even used TXTL x6 safes. The kind of crews who break into those hit high value targets like banks, cash-based business, and jewelry stores. And even then, they usually do it on a weekend or holiday where they have a ton of time. They don't break into people's houses to take their guns and collectibles.



A thief can have all the time in the world, but if they don't the proper equipment, experience, skill and knowledge, they will not be breaking into a real (tested) safe. Typical gun safes are sheet metal boxes that do not usually require anything more than some time and a trip to Home Depot to break into.
Equipment, experience, skill and knowledge can all be obtained with time.  A week is a long time.  Knowledge of $200,000 value is a strong motivator.  I would not expect a TRTL or even a TXTL x6 safe to last a week against a determined adversary starting with little skill.  Their is a reason banks have alarms.

Link Posted: 3/26/2015 7:04:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Equipment, experience, skill and knowledge can all be obtained with time.  A week is a long time.  Knowledge of $200,000 value is a strong motivator.  I would not expect a TRTL or even a TXTL x6 safe to last a week against a determined adversary starting with little skill.  Their is a reason banks have alarms.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Bolted is rule 1 and super easy to do. I would do a remote smoke alarm. Detects in safe room, emits from loud speaker out attic vents. for that much money he should have. Should have been a 15-20k safe what was it a stack on?

Edit for clarity

A 15K to 20K safe is still just a time equation, and they had lots of time. He would be better served with insurance and an alarm.


Nope, time does not necessarily equal success. Time is only a component when you start getting into real safes. In addition to time, to be successful you'll need the proper equipment, experience, skill and knowledge. In the 15-20k range mentioned, you're talking about TRTL and even used TXTL x6 safes. The kind of crews who break into those hit high value targets like banks, cash-based business, and jewelry stores. And even then, they usually do it on a weekend or holiday where they have a ton of time. They don't break into people's houses to take their guns and collectibles.

A thief can have all the time in the world, but if they don't the proper equipment, experience, skill and knowledge, they will not be breaking into a real (tested) safe. Typical gun safes are sheet metal boxes that do not usually require anything more than some time and a trip to Home Depot to break into.
Equipment, experience, skill and knowledge can all be obtained with time.  A week is a long time.  Knowledge of $200,000 value is a strong motivator.  I would not expect a TRTL or even a TXTL x6 safe to last a week against a determined adversary starting with little skill.  Their is a reason banks have alarms.


No one is saying that layered security with alarms is not the way to go. It most definitely is, but amateurs with a week or so to work on a explosive and torch resistant TXTL60x6 (or even a TRTL30x6) might be able to scratch the paint a little. You don't understand the materials or construction a high security safe like that uses. They have their own layered security. There are multiple layers of exotic alloys and barrier materials that are purpose-designed to stop a bunch of different attacks. These barriers use combinations of different materials to really make it fun.  Some of these safes can withstand nitroglycerin attack and 60+ minutes of continuous attack with a thermic lance. And that's by expert attackers who can inspect the inside of the safe and they have detailed construction info from the manufacturer. Also, they are in a ideal laboratory environment with all the safety support, time and expensive equipment they need, not some dude's closet that's 3'x 7'.

One company came up a barrier that resisted a lance attack long enough so that when you stopped to change the rod, the material solidified and you'd have to start over.

It's not a matter of prying harder or keep hitting it with the grinder, if you don't have intimate knowledge of the construction and barrier material of the safe along with a bunch of equipment and experience using it, you're not getting in. There are attacks on TL rated safes all the time where the attackers have plenty of time yet just knock of the dial and cut the outer steel skin. Even TL-30 safes have been stolen and taken off somewhere to get worked on, yet they're found later unopened.

The claimed "$200k" in losses are not liquid assets which can be easily spent or exchanged by a thief. Selling off stolen collectible coins and guns is not an easy thing to do  Plus, I'm sure that $200k estimate is probably very high, as most numbers are in situations like this.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 9:13:51 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:


No one is saying that layered security with alarms is not the way to go. It most definitely is, but amateurs with a week or so to work on a explosive and torch resistant TXTL60x6 (or even a TRTL30x6) might be able to scratch the paint a little. You don't understand the materials or construction a high security safe like that uses. They have their own layered security. There are multiple layers of exotic alloys and barrier materials that are purpose-designed to stop a bunch of different attacks. These barriers use combinations of different materials to really make it fun.  Some of these safes can withstand nitroglycerin attack and 60+ minutes of continuous attack with a thermic lance. And that's by expert attackers who can inspect the inside of the safe and they have detailed construction info from the manufacturer. Also, they are in a ideal laboratory environment with all the safety support, time and expensive equipment they need, not some dude's closet that's 3'x 7'.

One company came up a barrier that resisted a lance attack long enough so that when you stopped to change the rod, the material solidified and you'd have to start over.

It's not a matter of prying harder or keep hitting it with the grinder, if you don't have intimate knowledge of the construction and barrier material of the safe along with a bunch of equipment and experience using it, you're not getting in. There are attacks on TL rated safes all the time where the attackers have plenty of time yet just knock of the dial and cut the outer steel skin. Even TL-30 safes have been stolen and taken off somewhere to get worked on, yet they're found later unopened.

The claimed "$200k" in losses are not liquid assets which can be easily spent or exchanged by a thief. Selling off stolen collectible coins and guns is not an easy thing to do  Plus, I'm sure that $200k estimate is probably very high, as most numbers are in situations like this.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Bolted is rule 1 and super easy to do. I would do a remote smoke alarm. Detects in safe room, emits from loud speaker out attic vents. for that much money he should have. Should have been a 15-20k safe what was it a stack on?

Edit for clarity

A 15K to 20K safe is still just a time equation, and they had lots of time. He would be better served with insurance and an alarm.


Nope, time does not necessarily equal success. Time is only a component when you start getting into real safes. In addition to time, to be successful you'll need the proper equipment, experience, skill and knowledge. In the 15-20k range mentioned, you're talking about TRTL and even used TXTL x6 safes. The kind of crews who break into those hit high value targets like banks, cash-based business, and jewelry stores. And even then, they usually do it on a weekend or holiday where they have a ton of time. They don't break into people's houses to take their guns and collectibles.

A thief can have all the time in the world, but if they don't the proper equipment, experience, skill and knowledge, they will not be breaking into a real (tested) safe. Typical gun safes are sheet metal boxes that do not usually require anything more than some time and a trip to Home Depot to break into.
Equipment, experience, skill and knowledge can all be obtained with time.  A week is a long time.  Knowledge of $200,000 value is a strong motivator.  I would not expect a TRTL or even a TXTL x6 safe to last a week against a determined adversary starting with little skill.  Their is a reason banks have alarms.


No one is saying that layered security with alarms is not the way to go. It most definitely is, but amateurs with a week or so to work on a explosive and torch resistant TXTL60x6 (or even a TRTL30x6) might be able to scratch the paint a little. You don't understand the materials or construction a high security safe like that uses. They have their own layered security. There are multiple layers of exotic alloys and barrier materials that are purpose-designed to stop a bunch of different attacks. These barriers use combinations of different materials to really make it fun.  Some of these safes can withstand nitroglycerin attack and 60+ minutes of continuous attack with a thermic lance. And that's by expert attackers who can inspect the inside of the safe and they have detailed construction info from the manufacturer. Also, they are in a ideal laboratory environment with all the safety support, time and expensive equipment they need, not some dude's closet that's 3'x 7'.

One company came up a barrier that resisted a lance attack long enough so that when you stopped to change the rod, the material solidified and you'd have to start over.

It's not a matter of prying harder or keep hitting it with the grinder, if you don't have intimate knowledge of the construction and barrier material of the safe along with a bunch of equipment and experience using it, you're not getting in. There are attacks on TL rated safes all the time where the attackers have plenty of time yet just knock of the dial and cut the outer steel skin. Even TL-30 safes have been stolen and taken off somewhere to get worked on, yet they're found later unopened.

The claimed "$200k" in losses are not liquid assets which can be easily spent or exchanged by a thief. Selling off stolen collectible coins and guns is not an easy thing to do  Plus, I'm sure that $200k estimate is probably very high, as most numbers are in situations like this.


While that is great.... A dumb burglar with knowledge of your schedule such as in this case would simply wait until you come home and then Force you to open your fancy x6 safe.... Rendering it worthless.


The best idea is and always has been opsec and layerd security.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 9:23:53 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:

While that is great.... A dumb burglar with knowledge of your schedule such as in this case would simply wait until you come home and then Force you to open your fancy x6 safe.... Rendering it worthless.

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Quoted:

While that is great.... A dumb burglar with knowledge of your schedule such as in this case would simply wait until you come home and then Force you to open your fancy x6 safe.... Rendering it worthless.



That's terrific but we were discussing burglars having access to a safe and a lot of time to work. That's kind of what this thread is about, not home invasion situations.

P.S. They can simply wait for you come home, after you disarm your alarm, kick in a door or window, put a gun to your head and take whatever they want, safe or not.

It's like saying why wear a seatbelt when a semi could just crush your car with you in it? Why even have a safe to begin with? Hint: It's usually for what happens when you're not home.


Quoted:
The best idea is and always has been opsec and layerd security.


Yes, please see:

Quoted:
No one is saying that layered security with alarms is not the way to go. It most definitely is,
Link Posted: 3/27/2015 2:51:49 AM EDT
[#16]
I looked up this guys house.  It looks to be worth about 1.3 million dollars.  Should have spent some of that money on a monitored alarm system, cameras, a better safe, bolted his safe down, insurance, a house sitter, etc.  Hope he's learned his lesson.
Link Posted: 3/27/2015 8:08:27 AM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
I looked up this guys house.  It looks to be worth about 1.3 million dollars.  Should have spent some of that money on a monitored alarm system, cameras, a better safe, bolted his safe down, insurance, a house sitter, etc.  Hope he's learned his lesson.
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Sounds like one of those people that think they live in a "safe" neighborhood.
I am surrounded by these people here at work.
But even they are smart enough to have an alarm system and some camera's.
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