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Posted: 10/14/2014 11:00:48 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Options #2... if you know about where the button is, drill a small hole in the side nearest the button, and use a probe to find and push the button... walla![/span][/span] That is specifically why the first thing I did to my cheapo secondary safe was relocate that button... I know where it is, nobody else does.... and a casual observer would NEVER find it if they drilled a hole to take a look... |
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Posted: 10/14/2014 11:45:02 AM EDT
[#2]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D33T4GOtB-U
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Posted: 10/14/2014 2:40:21 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I'd be careful posting stuff like this. Wouldn't want to give the wrong people any ideas. I don't think that's much of a secret, just Google a few different keywords and you'll find a dozen articles and videos on the subject.... I think criminals have discovered the internet... don't you? |
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Posted: 10/14/2014 2:47:47 PM EDT
[#4]
I don't think that's much of a secret, just Google a few different keywords and you'll find a dozen articles and videos on the subject....
I think criminals have discovered the internet... don't you? Of course. That doesn't mean that we should make it any easier, or add to the problem. As representatives of the security industry, we should hold ourselves to higher standards, and not discuss bypass methods even though others have. You can find photos showing the insides of AMSEC safes online too, if you're good at searching. But it would be completely different if I was posting those photos here, and giving recommendations on methods of attack. |
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Posted: 10/14/2014 2:56:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stories like this are why I didn't go with an electronic lock. Combination lock only takes a few seconds longer and all the locksmiths on this board say that the majority of their calls are on the digital locks. One of mne is electronic with a master key if needed. |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 11:50:35 AM EDT
[#6]
This is exactly why I swapped out my S&G electronic lock for their mechanical lock as soon as I got my safe. Best of luck to OP.
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Posted: 10/15/2014 12:53:28 PM EDT
[#7]
There are two schools of thought. One is to keep vulnerabilities secret and hope that bag guys don't find out about them. Another is to publicize them to force companies to not produce easily defeatable products.
Some big recent examples of publicity are the Kryptonite lock being openable with a ballpoint pen, and bump keying. Or you can go back to 1851 (pre-internet) where Locksmith Alfred Charles Hobbs showed everyone at the Great Exhibition of the Works of Industry of all Nations how to pick the best locks of the day, forcing lock makers to make better products. I have two Abus bike locks and love them. |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 4:03:03 PM EDT
[#8]
There are two schools of thought. One is to keep vulnerabilities secret and hope that bag guys don't find out about them. Another is to publicize them to force companies to not produce easily defeatable products. There is only one school of thought amongst security professionals. We do not share bypass techniques with the general public. Do we explain security flaws in generic ways? Sure. Do we give people instructions on how to do it? No. If you're the second school of thought type, go ahead and post your address. Then I'll give step by step instructions on how to bypass your new Smith "vault" door with a few simple tools and a coat hanger. |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 5:10:29 PM EDT
[#9]
I can't post my address because it is not fair to my wife and kids, but otherwise, I am perfectly fine with you telling people how to bypass a Smith Magnum steel door. It is my problem that I didn't get a bank-quality door, and I find the bypass interesting and would love to know. When the door arrives, I will take off the panel and take a look.
Here are the instructions: 1. Go through the driveway gate. Perhaps pose as Fedex or UPS. 2. Break into the residence. 3. Kill my 90 lb dog. 4. Stop me from shooting with an AR. 5. While the alarm is going off, they have to cut through the 2 inch solid hardwood door that covers the steel door before the police arrive. 6. Drill through 1 inch of solid steel with a hole large enough to be able to angle coat hanger through. Alternatively, you can go through the 11.5 inch thick concrete, rebar, and plywood wall. 7. Insert coat hanger in the location you determine and do whatever you say. 8. Empty out guns. 9. Have shootout with the police. Sounds like a plan. Meanwhile, burglar will be in possession of NFA firearms with 10 year possible prison sentence, and my insurance will replace any guns that are stolen. My insurance did not care what kind of steel door I got, by the way. I would have been fine with the "light" door, or even the hardwood doors alone really as you couldn't even breach those before the police or owner response. |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 5:28:06 PM EDT
[#10]
I can't post my address because it is not fair to my wife and kids, So is it fair to somebody else's wife or kids to post this type of information publicly? What if a kid, or the friends of one of those kids uses one of these tricks to access a firearm, and then somebody ends up dead? I have proven time and time again that you simply do not get it. This is yet another example. |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 5:42:30 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So is it fair to somebody else's wife or kids to post this type of information publicly? What if a kid, or the friends of one of those kids uses one of these tricks to access a firearm, and then somebody ends up dead? I have proven time and time again that you simply do not get it. This is yet another example. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't post my address because it is not fair to my wife and kids, So is it fair to somebody else's wife or kids to post this type of information publicly? What if a kid, or the friends of one of those kids uses one of these tricks to access a firearm, and then somebody ends up dead? I have proven time and time again that you simply do not get it. This is yet another example. This is a difference of opinion. Your point of view is fine to have and express. So is mine. You are a bit of a cyber bully though because you keep on attacking me. It is not fair to post someone else's address. It is fair to post bypass methods on the internet, and that is no different than people who expose computer or cryptography vulnerabilities so that they will get fixed and become stronger. But sure, there are people who don't like it, and you are one of them. That is ok. I am not worried about kids using bypass methods. If they can figure that out, they have a certain level of sophistication and are not toddlers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahcVp8vIicI |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 5:44:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stories like this are why I didn't go with an electronic lock. Combination lock only takes a few seconds longer and all the locksmiths on this board say that the majority of their calls are on the digital locks. Dial locks fuck up too. They are the only ones I have seen fuck up. If you want to be close to 100% sure, buy a safe with two doors. It is unlikely that two locks are going to fail at the same time. If I was getting into a safe where I was not familiar with the inside construction, I would use a high speed cut off wheel and cut a square around the lock until I was through. To prevent fire, I would stop when I could see I was getting very thin, and then hammer out the center. Then I could easily re-weld the square back in place with a new lock. I almost had to do this recently to my brother's safe. He kept at it and his lock finally took the combination. |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 5:58:09 PM EDT
[#13]
You are a bit of a cyber bully though because you keep on attacking me. Perhaps it has something to do with all the bad information you post. It is not fair to post someone else's address. It is fair to post bypass methods on the internet, I'm not posting somebody else's address. I'm telling you to post yours yourself. Put your money where your mouth is. I'll then do the fair thing, and post the bypass methods for the security products you use. If posting this information is no big deal, then you have nothing to worry about. |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 7:45:49 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One of mine is electronic with a master key if needed. The thing most people overlook is that when you have a bypass, it's the easier way to defeat the safe. You could have the best primary lock on the planet, but when you put a cheap $3 tubular lock on it that is relatively easy to pick, the security of the primary lock is moot. UL does not allow bypass devices on listed products of any kind, even RSC rated Gunsafes. Just because the keylock may be hidden doesn't make it secure. I have never seen a "good" bypass lock on safes, except where we have installed dual combo locks on a yolk system so either lock will open the safe. Buyer beware.... I suspect Frank will probably chew on my ass for pointing this out too... |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 8:20:29 PM EDT
[#15]
I suspect Frank will probably chew on my ass for pointing this out too... Why would I? You're not describing any bypass methods with that statement. You're speaking in non specific terms, which is perfectly acceptable. Not that you need me to tell you what that difference is. You've been in this business just as long, if not longer than I have. |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 8:59:56 PM EDT
[#16]
On a related note - how would I go about replacing an electronic lock with a manual dial system?
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Posted: 10/15/2014 9:25:19 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is why I like do it yourselfers.  Don't do that. You'll fry the electronics. Quote HistoryQuoted: I MIGHT try you know powering the solenoid directly bypassing the keypad... Ah la directly power the starter on a car bypassing the key. This is why I like do it yourselfers. Don't do that. You'll fry the electronics. Okay I'm interested. I work on some very complex DC electrical circuits and would love to see a Diagram of an electric lock. This is my totally uninformed guess (I work on oilfield equip) I think that each number pressed inputs a set resistance to a logic board that then decides weather or not to send the unlock signal to the relay that controls the lock solenoid. I have always loved lock picking in my day dream mode just never had the opportunity.  |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 9:36:29 PM EDT
[#18]
This is my totally uninformed guess (I work on oilfield equip) I think that each number pressed inputs a set resistance to a logic board that then decides weather or not to send the unlock signal to the relay that controls the lock solenoid. TSG has engineered an electronic lock, so he can likely give you all of the technical details. The simply way I usually explain it is using a computer as an example. The keypad is like the keyboard on the computer. The lock contains the "computer". There are very few (very cheap safes) where running power through the keypad wires will unlock the lock. Just like you can't make your computer's disk tray open by running power through the keyboard wiring. |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 10:35:59 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
TSG has engineered an electronic lock, so he can likely give you all of the technical details. The simply way I usually explain it is using a computer as an example. The keypad is like the keyboard on the computer. The lock contains the "computer". There are very few (very cheap safes) where running power through the keypad wires will unlock the lock. Just like you can't make your computer's disk tray open by running power through the keyboard wiring. Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is my totally uninformed guess (I work on oilfield equip) I think that each number pressed inputs a set resistance to a logic board that then decides weather or not to send the unlock signal to the relay that controls the lock solenoid. TSG has engineered an electronic lock, so he can likely give you all of the technical details. The simply way I usually explain it is using a computer as an example. The keypad is like the keyboard on the computer. The lock contains the "computer". There are very few (very cheap safes) where running power through the keypad wires will unlock the lock. Just like you can't make your computer's disk tray open by running power through the keyboard wiring. Frank has said it well enough. The keypad is simply an input device, loosely connected to a microprocessor in the lock. If the lock is any good, the idea of jazzing the leads to the keypad makes bad stuff happen. First line of defense is simple fuses that blow with higher than normal voltage levels, noise filters and crowbar circuits to leverage fail-safe circuits that disable the lock. There are multiple layers of electrical and electronic barriers that make any attempt to play with signals and power spiking of any kind on any combination of wires coming from the keypad. Like the safes, the UL standards for locks has evolved rapidly. The tests we do today are no less than 30 times more severe than they were when we took the first e-lock in for UL Group 2 equivalency in 1992. At that time, there was no e-lock UL Standard. Now we have SUB2058, the proposed standard for e-locks, which has never been published as a formal standard. |
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Posted: 10/16/2014 12:25:36 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I'm not posting somebody else's address. I'm telling you to post yours yourself. Put your money where your mouth is. I'll then do the fair thing, and post the bypass methods for the security products you use. If posting this information is no big deal, then you have nothing to worry about. My wife is concerned that someone will show up with a gun and threaten our kids, so I could never do that. But otherwise, I would not be afraid of someone bypassing my vault door with your instructions. I own a Miller plasma cutter and can cut through my door anyway. |
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Posted: 10/16/2014 12:34:22 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
On a related note - how would I go about replacing an electronic lock with a manual dial system? That depends what electronic lock you have. If it shares a footprint with the most common gun safe dial lock, like a S&G 6730, then just buy one on Ebay and swap it by following the instructions with the lock. Eons ago I changed my dial locks to electronic (Mas Hamilton 100) and now I wish I knew where I put those dial locks. Generally they are about $100 new. |
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Posted: 10/16/2014 8:30:48 AM EDT
[#22]
My wife is concerned that someone will show up with a gun and threaten our kids, so I could never do that. But otherwise, I would not be afraid of someone bypassing my vault door with your instructions. I own a Miller plasma cutter and can cut through my door anyway. Got it. Your family's security is more important than other family's security. You're entitled to that opinion, I just wanted to make it known. |
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Posted: 10/16/2014 9:46:25 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Got it. Your family's security is more important than other family's security. You're entitled to that opinion, I just wanted to make it known. Nope - as I said, I would not consider it fair to post anyone's address. I did say that. |
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Posted: 10/16/2014 10:40:23 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
On a related note - how would I go about replacing an electronic lock with a manual dial system? I had a locksmith do mine. liberty sent me a new S&G mech dial to replace the bad elec at my request. Cost about $60 to have him do it. |
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Posted: 10/16/2014 10:52:44 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope - as I said, I would not consider it fair to post anyone's address. I did say that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:Got it. Your family's security is more important than other family's security. You're entitled to that opinion, I just wanted to make it known. Nope - as I said, I would not consider it fair to post anyone's address. I did say that. My family's security is way more important than anyone else's family security. Including your family. Not sure why anyone would be ashamed to admit that... |
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Posted: 10/16/2014 2:40:37 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My family's security is way more important than anyone else's family security. Including your family. Not sure why anyone would be ashamed to admit that... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:Got it. Your family's security is more important than other family's security. You're entitled to that opinion, I just wanted to make it known. Nope - as I said, I would not consider it fair to post anyone's address. I did say that. My family's security is way more important than anyone else's family security. Including your family. Not sure why anyone would be ashamed to admit that... This, hell, even my dog is worth more to me than... |
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Posted: 12/15/2014 2:50:08 PM EDT
[#27]
Bump for updates
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Posted: 12/16/2014 1:26:31 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bump for updates ETA 2nd UPDATE!! I'm in.... So I finally got through to Winchester Safes (only 17 mind on hold) the nice lady says if the code didn't work, I need to call a locksmith. I asked why?, so she had me go to my safe, unscrew the key pad, push in one of the connections..... NOW IT WORKS! she said that sometimes when you replace the battery it knocks it out & you lose your code.... Whatever I'm changing to a dial lock for Christmas. |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 7:51:48 AM EDT
[#29]
so all you have to do to open a Winchester safe is unscrew the pad and push a connection ? or are you saying that after pushing the connector it made your code work again ?
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Posted: 12/17/2014 8:08:58 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so all you have to do to open a Winchester safe is unscrew the pad and push a connection ? or are you saying that after pushing the connector it made your code work again ? the code was not being received by the lock |
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Posted: 12/17/2014 10:28:36 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the code was not being received by the lock Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
so all you have to do to open a Winchester safe is unscrew the pad and push a connection ? or are you saying that after pushing the connector it made your code work again ? the code was not being received by the lock Correct. I can post a picture of the connection if you wish. It was rather simple. Kind ticks me off. 
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