Couple of safe questions regarding humidity

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Couple of safe questions regarding humidity

Posted: 4/21/2014 11:35:41 AM EDT

Recently moved into a new place and was thinking of buying my first gun safe (was looking at a Fort Knox Maverick). The house was built in the 50s and has a very sturdy floor that would more than hold up any safe I would want to put against a load bearing wall. My only problem is the land lord insists I only put a safe in the basement. My question is, would my safe and firearms be alright in a basement that seems to usually be at 60-70%+ humidity with a golden rod and some evadry packs? I heard that putting the safe on something up off the ground and not having it directly up against the wall might also help.

Posted: 4/21/2014 3:24:00 PM EDT

[#1]

With that setup I would run a small dehumidifier in addition to what you stated. Do you have a floor drain? Small dehumidifiers run in the $150 range and will keep your basement at 30/40/50% depending on the setting.

Something like this

Posted: 4/25/2014 12:25:10 PM EDT

[#2]

Your concern with a safe is the stability of the climate. If the temperature in the space changes a lot, you should be taking active measures to prevent condensation inside the safe. The degree of temperature swing has everything to do with the complexity of your prevention methods.

Our worries with humidity damaging the safe contents is all about "dew-point". The Dew-point is the temperature at which the relative humidity becomes 100%. Condensation happens on objects where the object is cooler than the surrounding air. The relative humidity in the air determines the temperature at which the water vapor begins to condense.

Look at the Dew-point chart below. If the temperature in the room is 75ºF, and the %RH is 85%, then from the chart the Dewpoint is 70ºF. So, what that means is that if you introduce an object in that room that is colder than 70º, then the surface of that object will begin to collect condensing water vapor from the air. This is why your ice-cold beer has condensation all over it. The surface of the beer can is well below the Dew-point in the surrounding environment.

So, in terms of a safe, our concern is with rapid temperature change. Under steady state conditions, we have no worries because everything equalizes to the room temperature. The guns in the safe are the same temperature as the surrounding air inside and outside the safe. Unless you are at 100% humidity, there won't be any condensation.

Now, let's say your safe is in a cold room at 60º. The safe is closed, so it adapts to the ambient temperature outside very slowly. Now the room is warmed to 70º by sun or forced heating. The RH in the room is 80%. Now, you open the safe. The 70º air then circulates in the safe, and because the Dew-point is 63º, you start to see the guns collecting dew (condensation). The Dew-point is higher than the surface temperature of the guns.

If your safe is in a climate controlled room, where the temperature may swing less than 3-5 degrees, a simple dry-rod dehumidifier inside the safe will be adequate. That device basically raises the temperature a few degrees inside the safe so that you are always above the environmental dew-point. If your temperature swings much more than that, you need to take active measures with DE-humidifying methods.

Posted: 4/25/2014 3:11:47 PM EDT

[#3]

Thanks, I have seen that chart before but your explanation makes it easier to understand. You should post this information in the long ask Thesafeguy AMSEC thread.

Posted: 4/26/2014 3:11:39 PM EDT

[#4]

In Virginia, you'll have a very difficult time keeping a basement dry enough to prevent corrosion. Count on dehumidifying the entire space and the safe itself on top of it. Dehumidifiers use a lot of electricity, but they are necessary in your climate. On the plus side, you'll have a limitless supply of distilled water!

I learned long ago -- the hard way -- that guns and basements do not play well together. (long story with destroyed guns at the end of it)

Posted: 4/26/2014 4:47:41 PM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:
In Virginia, you'll have a very difficult time keeping a basement dry enough to prevent corrosion. Count on dehumidifying the entire space and the safe itself on top of it. Dehumidifiers use a lot of electricity, but they are necessary in your climate. On the plus side, you'll have a limitless supply of distilled water!

I learned long ago -- the hard way -- that guns and basements do not play well together. (long story with destroyed guns at the end of it)

View Quote

Ya, I really wish I could put it upstairs. Guess I'll have to wait til I'm the actual home owner to make that call. Basement may as well be a garage though, no heating or cooling down there, hopefully the temp stays pretty consistent though. Going to throw in an evadry 1100 mini dehumidifier and a goldenrod and hope for the best.

Posted: 4/28/2014 5:12:10 PM EDT

[#6]

So I placed one of the Stack On dehumidifiers in my Gun safe in my basement.

http://www.amazon.com/Stack-On-SPAD-100-Wireless-Rechargeable-Dehumidifier/dp/B001F0IH22

This thing has been sitting in my safe for over 3 weeks and has not changed color one bit from the dark blue that it originally came in the package.....
Should it have changed color by now?

Posted: 4/29/2014 3:32:22 PM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:
Your concern with a safe is the stability of the climate. If the temperature in the space changes a lot, you should be taking active measures to prevent condensation inside the safe. The degree of temperature swing has everything to do with the complexity of your prevention methods.

Our worries with humidity damaging the safe contents is all about "dew-point". The Dew-point is the temperature at which the relative humidity becomes 100%. Condensation happens on objects where the object is cooler than the surrounding air. The relative humidity in the air determines the temperature at which the water vapor begins to condense.

Look at the Dew-point chart below. If the temperature in the room is 75ºF, and the %RH is 85%, then from the chart the Dewpoint is 70ºF. So, what that means is that if you introduce an object in that room that is colder than 70º, then the surface of that object will begin to collect condensing water vapor from the air. This is why your ice-cold beer has condensation all over it. The surface of the beer can is well below the Dew-point in the surrounding environment.

http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/Dewpoint_zps860fd2ac.jpg

So, in terms of a safe, our concern is with rapid temperature change. Under steady state conditions, we have no worries because everything equalizes to the room temperature. The guns in the safe are the same temperature as the surrounding air inside and outside the safe. Unless you are at 100% humidity, there won't be any condensation.

Now, let's say your safe is in a cold room at 60º. The safe is closed, so it adapts to the ambient temperature outside very slowly. Now the room is warmed to 70º by sun or forced heating. The RH in the room is 80%. Now, you open the safe. The 70º air then circulates in the safe, and because the Dew-point is 63º, you start to see the guns collecting dew (condensation). The Dew-point is higher than the surface temperature of the guns.

If your safe is in a climate controlled room, where the temperature may swing less than 3-5 degrees, a simple dry-rod dehumidifier inside the safe will be adequate. That device basically raises the temperature a few degrees inside the safe so that you are always above the environmental dew-point. If your temperature swings much more than that, you need to take active measures with DE-humidifying methods.

View Quote

Great info, thanks Tony. Would you recommend simply using a rechargeable silica-based (or similar) dehumidifier or are more elaborate measures needed? Is there any merit to weather stripping where the door meets the body of the safe?

Posted: 4/29/2014 4:01:18 PM EDT

[#8]

Quote History

Quoted:
So I placed one of the Stack On dehumidifiers in my Gun safe in my basement.

http://www.amazon.com/Stack-On-SPAD-100-Wireless-Rechargeable-Dehumidifier/dp/B001F0IH22

This thing has been sitting in my safe for over 3 weeks and has not changed color one bit from the dark blue that it originally came in the package.....
Should it have changed color by now?

View Quote

Not necessarily, Missouri in the Spring, you probably have had your furnace on in the last 10 days, followed by the A/C and yes I lived in MO. Go to HD/Lowes and buy an accurite or similar humidity sensor w/wireless base station, about 15 bucks. My sensor reads 65 degrees and 43% as I type.

Posted: 4/29/2014 4:08:52 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:

Great info, thanks Tony. Would you recommend simply using a rechargeable silica-based (or similar) dehumidifier or are more elaborate measures needed? Is there any merit to weather stripping where the door meets the body of the safe?

View Quote

Weather Strip seals on the door should allow you to keep the interior dry longer with a passive desiccant pack. Our world is one that always seeks equilibrium. So, if you have a loose door fit, and you dry the interior, the natural forces cause the exchange of air to equalize the ambient conditions. Dry air is like a sponge, and will draw the moisture from any source. If outside air is freely passing around the door, then there will be a constant flow of moist air entering as the system balances again. If you seal the door well, this exchange is reduced, and hence your desiccant will last longer before it is saturated and requires forced-heat drying.

So, if you use an adequately sized desiccant pack, and seal the door gaps, you will have better results. I suspect this is why some people are disappointed with their dehumidifying efforts. They are trying to dry the entire room, not just the safe interior, because their doors don't close very tight.

The forced circulation dryers compound this problem, because they cause pressure differentials with a fan that accelerate the exchange air passing around the door gaps. Be careful when you seal your door gaps. The dryer will become much more effective and then you will need to be concerned with wood parts of guns drying out too much and cracking. You want to shoot for an internal humidity that is lower than the surrounding room air, but not so low that it becomes a desert inside the safe. You want to "control" humidity, not eliminate it.

Posted: 4/30/2014 4:12:17 PM EDT

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:

Weather Strip seals on the door should allow you to keep the interior dry longer with a passive desiccant pack. Our world is one that always seeks equilibrium. So, if you have a loose door fit, and you dry the interior, the natural forces cause the exchange of air to equalize the ambient conditions. Dry air is like a sponge, and will draw the moisture from any source. If outside air is freely passing around the door, then there will be a constant flow of moist air entering as the system balances again. If you seal the door well, this exchange is reduced, and hence your desiccant will last longer before it is saturated and requires forced-heat drying.

So, if you use an adequately sized desiccant pack, and seal the door gaps, you will have better results. I suspect this is why some people are disappointed with their dehumidifying efforts. They are trying to dry the entire room, not just the safe interior, because their doors don't close very tight.

The forced circulation dryers compound this problem, because they cause pressure differentials with a fan that accelerate the exchange air passing around the door gaps. Be careful when you seal your door gaps. The dryer will become much more effective and then you will need to be concerned with wood parts of guns drying out too much and cracking. You want to shoot for an internal humidity that is lower than the surrounding room air, but not so low that it becomes a desert inside the safe. You want to "control" humidity, not eliminate it.

View Quote

Good info, thanks Tony. I have a large dehumidifier in the basement and a large goldenrod in my safe, but will add weather striping and dessicants to the safe. I bought Safealert so I can monitor temp and humidity.

Posted: 5/1/2014 6:03:03 AM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:

Not necessarily, Missouri in the Spring, you probably have had your furnace on in the last 10 days, followed by the A/C and yes I lived in MO. Go to HD/Lowes and buy an accurite or similar humidity sensor w/wireless base station, about 15 bucks. My sensor reads 65 degrees and 43% as I type.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
So I placed one of the Stack On dehumidifiers in my Gun safe in my basement.

http://www.amazon.com/Stack-On-SPAD-100-Wireless-Rechargeable-Dehumidifier/dp/B001F0IH22

This thing has been sitting in my safe for over 3 weeks and has not changed color one bit from the dark blue that it originally came in the package.....
Should it have changed color by now?

Not necessarily, Missouri in the Spring, you probably have had your furnace on in the last 10 days, followed by the A/C and yes I lived in MO. Go to HD/Lowes and buy an accurite or similar humidity sensor w/wireless base station, about 15 bucks. My sensor reads 65 degrees and 43% as I type.

Cool..... good to know, Thanks.
Yes, I had furnace on when the temps were freezing last week but, we havent had the need to AC yet....

Posted: 5/3/2014 7:21:01 AM EDT

[#12]

Well, here is a screenshot from my safealert after sitting overnight in my safe. I have a large goldenrod in the safe. According to the dew point chart above, the dewpoint is 43-48 degrees F.

So unless the temperature rapidly drops, I should be fine right? Am I understanding this correctly?

Posted: 5/3/2014 2:05:45 PM EDT

[#13]

This should be tacked,it's the best,easiest to understand explanation I've ever seen.

Quote History

Quoted:
Your concern with a safe is the stability of the climate. If the temperature in the space changes a lot, you should be taking active measures to prevent condensation inside the safe. The degree of temperature swing has everything to do with the complexity of your prevention methods.

Our worries with humidity damaging the safe contents is all about "dew-point". The Dew-point is the temperature at which the relative humidity becomes 100%. Condensation happens on objects where the object is cooler than the surrounding air. The relative humidity in the air determines the temperature at which the water vapor begins to condense.

Look at the Dew-point chart below. If the temperature in the room is 75ºF, and the %RH is 85%, then from the chart the Dewpoint is 70ºF. So, what that means is that if you introduce an object in that room that is colder than 70º, then the surface of that object will begin to collect condensing water vapor from the air. This is why your ice-cold beer has condensation all over it. The surface of the beer can is well below the Dew-point in the surrounding environment.

http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/Dewpoint_zps860fd2ac.jpg

So, in terms of a safe, our concern is with rapid temperature change. Under steady state conditions, we have no worries because everything equalizes to the room temperature. The guns in the safe are the same temperature as the surrounding air inside and outside the safe. Unless you are at 100% humidity, there won't be any condensation.

Now, let's say your safe is in a cold room at 60º. The safe is closed, so it adapts to the ambient temperature outside very slowly. Now the room is warmed to 70º by sun or forced heating. The RH in the room is 80%. Now, you open the safe. The 70º air then circulates in the safe, and because the Dew-point is 63º, you start to see the guns collecting dew (condensation). The Dew-point is higher than the surface temperature of the guns.

If your safe is in a climate controlled room, where the temperature may swing less than 3-5 degrees, a simple dry-rod dehumidifier inside the safe will be adequate. That device basically raises the temperature a few degrees inside the safe so that you are always above the environmental dew-point. If your temperature swings much more than that, you need to take active measures with DE-humidifying methods.

View Quote

Posted: 5/3/2014 2:08:55 PM EDT

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:
This should be tacked,it's the best,easiest to understand explanation I've ever seen.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:
This should be tacked,it's the best,easiest to understand explanation I've ever seen.

Quoted:
Your concern with a safe is the stability of the climate. If the temperature in the space changes a lot, you should be taking active measures to prevent condensation inside the safe. The degree of temperature swing has everything to do with the complexity of your prevention methods.

Our worries with humidity damaging the safe contents is all about "dew-point". The Dew-point is the temperature at which the relative humidity becomes 100%. Condensation happens on objects where the object is cooler than the surrounding air. The relative humidity in the air determines the temperature at which the water vapor begins to condense.

Look at the Dew-point chart below. If the temperature in the room is 75ºF, and the %RH is 85%, then from the chart the Dewpoint is 70ºF. So, what that means is that if you introduce an object in that room that is colder than 70º, then the surface of that object will begin to collect condensing water vapor from the air. This is why your ice-cold beer has condensation all over it. The surface of the beer can is well below the Dew-point in the surrounding environment.

http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/Dewpoint_zps860fd2ac.jpg

So, in terms of a safe, our concern is with rapid temperature change. Under steady state conditions, we have no worries because everything equalizes to the room temperature. The guns in the safe are the same temperature as the surrounding air inside and outside the safe. Unless you are at 100% humidity, there won't be any condensation.

Now, let's say your safe is in a cold room at 60º. The safe is closed, so it adapts to the ambient temperature outside very slowly. Now the room is warmed to 70º by sun or forced heating. The RH in the room is 80%. Now, you open the safe. The 70º air then circulates in the safe, and because the Dew-point is 63º, you start to see the guns collecting dew (condensation). The Dew-point is higher than the surface temperature of the guns.

If your safe is in a climate controlled room, where the temperature may swing less than 3-5 degrees, a simple dry-rod dehumidifier inside the safe will be adequate. That device basically raises the temperature a few degrees inside the safe so that you are always above the environmental dew-point. If your temperature swings much more than that, you need to take active measures with DE-humidifying methods.

It was cross posted in the long AMSEC thread, while not tacked, it has kind of morphed into the place to go for questions and answers.

Posted: 5/3/2014 5:23:00 PM EDT

[#15]

Glad this has been useful information.

If you are seeking a good door seal, you want something real soft and flexible so it can touch the door and still allow you to close the door without having to lean on it. We use a special foam silicone seal on our safes. Silicone has a high temperature tolerance, and will stand up to the initial exposure to fire allowing your intumescent high temp seals to expand and seal the door. We have done a lot of fire testing, some of it on competitors safes. This is one of their primary weaknesses. The seals they use don't actually touch the door, and there is an open gap allowing the hot gasses to pass into the safe early in the test. They use regular urethane or vinyl foam seal materials that burn at very low temperatures. Silicone doesn't start to break down until it reaches 600-700ºF, allowing the reactive secondary intumescent seal to grow and seal the door for high temperature endurance. A good primary seal is vital to good fire performance.

I would recommend that you retrofit those brand-X safes with some seal material like THIS for best results.

In many safes I have seen, the seals are nowhere near making a seal. You should build up that face so there is a delicate touch of the seal all the way around. It's amazing how stupid some manufacturers are. In one safe we tested, their intumescent seal was so far from the body face where it was installed on the door perimeter it could never grow enough to close the gap. It failed in few minutes, and it had a very long rating claimed. Obviously, they never tested the design as they claimed, or they would have discovered their stupidity. You can use modelling clay to test the door gaps. Just roll up a bit and close the door on it, then when you open it up the thickness of the clay shows you the gap you need to fill.

Now, ask me how well those rope seals work. What a JOKE! If you have those, do yourself a favor and replace them. They are useless. Sure, the material they are made from will endure 2700ºF, but if they don't seal the door gap, you might as well use paper.

Posted: 5/8/2014 8:35:21 PM EDT

[#16]

Thanks for the recommendation on the silicone door seal; I just ordered it.

Is it feasible to put a small dehumidifier in one's safe? Say something like THIS?

Posted: 5/11/2014 3:46:15 PM EDT

[#17]

so I got a wireless Hygrometer/ thermometer for my safe in the basement.....
Outside humidity is 57% with an inside reading of 51% with a Stack On rechargeable dehumidifier currently.

Posted: 5/12/2014 7:40:05 AM EDT

[#18]

I can see your landlord's point but have you asked him if you could reinforce the floor under the safe area?
Something like a storage closet or shelving with 4x4 corners that tie into and support the floor above.
He gets a nice storage area for free and you don't have to pay for a dehumidifier and electricity. You do know that most dehumidifier stop working when the basement gets too cool.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Couple of safe questions regarding humidity

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